Basejumper.com - archive

i hope it is ok to post this on the base-forum.

well, it is time for me (after AFF) to buy my first skydiving-rig.

as i would like to get into base in the future i would be interested to hear your opinion on aerodyne's triathlon as a first-skydiving-canopy for me.

well, it would be a 7-cell-canopy - maybe not too bad to make the recommended drills?

if you could recommend it - wich size should it have? i have 30 skydives and 62 kg.

i am looking forward to your replies.

The 99 for sure.

Steep learning curve but if you survive it you’ll be ready.

Although the Triathlon is closer to a BASE canopy than many skydiving canopies, it's really not that close.

If you're really serious about BASE as your primary focus, consider using a Super Raven, a PD 7 cell, or an older (hence used and cheaper) 7 cell like a Cruiselite. The best option of all, of course, would be to simply pick up a BASE canopy--either buying the one you will use for BASE straight away, or picking up a secondhand one for skydiving duty. Any of these is going to be very large, and require you to get a very big skydiving rig.

Honestly, if you're going to get a Triathlon 150 or something thinking it's "close" to a BASE canopy, you're just going to be fooling yourself. Aside from having 7 cells, they have very little in common.

Bottom line: If you're serious about training for BASE, skip the Triathlon and just buy a BASE canopy straight away.

thanks tom,

i was told and i read severel times that it could become frustrating to focus 200% on base-jumping while learning to skydive. well, i started skydiving just because of base but of course also want to have fun in the air while skydiving...

maybe an acceptable option could be to start skydiving with a canopy that also makes fun and jump one of those docile canopies 30 times (or so) in the weeks right before the FJC?

what do think of that? would therefore a triathon be acceptable?


edited: spelling

You can have just as much fun in the air with a BASE canopy in your skydiving rig.

If you make sure you get a proper rig, you can still do all the funky headdown stuff those modern freefly kids are doing today...

The only thing that'll be different is your canopy rides, but arguably those can be more fun with a BASE canopy (once you get into traditional accuracy) than with a middle-of-the-road 170 canopy.

That isn't to say there aren't any fun things you can do with a 170, but it doesn't offer much sinking capacity and it sure as hell is damn fun to really sink down onto something smack in the middle of the bowl.

hmm, this (making a decision) is all so difficult (and expensive *g*)!

how much do i know about what makes fun with only 30 belly-skydives on the credit side?

@jaap: how did you start skydiving? did you know that you wanted to get into base at the beginning? would you really buy yourself a super-docile base-canopy(-alike) if you would be in my situation?

You should be able to pick up a used unvented BASE canopy you can use for skydiving for relatively little money.


You don't really, which is why you ask around on this forum and other people (your skydiving instructor for example). So you're doing the right thing.


My first memorable encounter with BASE jumping was seeing the trailer for First BASE. I remember thinking how cool it must be, but (due to a lack of knowledge that possibly remains today) associating it with a high roll-the-dice factor. So I added it to my long list of "things I'd like to do some day, but won't make an aggressive effort towards yet."

A few years later I happened to be watching Point Break (still the best, albeit not most realistic, skydiving movie in my opinion) and although I had seen it before, this time I got a sudden urge to start skydiving. The next day I was doing my static-line course.

At that point, BASE was still on the "no immediate goal" list but as I gained more gear knowledge and learned that skydiving is a remarkably survivable sport, BASE slowly crept towards the top of the list and somewhere around skydive number 70 it popped from the original list onto my much shorter list of goals I'm effectively working towards.

Up to that point I had been jumping large rental gear and my own first rig, a Sabre 170. I continued jumping my own gear, and combined it with 10k hop-and-pops on rented seven-cells (220s mostly) at another dropzone further away.

My first time on a BASE canopy was during my FJC with Tom Aiello. I did another FJC with Apex BASE after that and then I ordered a BASE canopy which I skydived for the first time on my 150th-ish skydive.


I don't know your situation so it's hard to tell.

When I started skydiving I was still woefully ignorant on how parachutes worked. I distinctly remember being pissed off that the structure of my static-line course didn't first teach us how to pack a parachute before we made our first jump. I needed about 40 skydives before I found this forum and Blinc Magazine. That enabled me to absorb the necessary information to turn BASE from a roll-the-dice future goal into something I could effectively work towards.

So from my point of view it was a healthy and natural thing to buy a common skydiving rig.

It appears you're in a much different situation, already knowing more about BASE then I did when I started skydiving. In the end it all depends on how badly you want to BASE jump and how uninterested you think you'll be in other areas of canopy piloting.

My recommendation is to get a cheap used BASE canopy. If somewhere down the road you learn that you enjoy other things, you can just buy, rent or loan a second rig then.

one question
a good accuracy canopy (like parafoil) in a good size that give a wingloading apropiate to the wingloading need in base is not a better option than a triathlon?

Much better. I overlooked that in my listing of canopies that would work well. Accuracy canopies are definitely a good choice for a pre-BASE training canopy.

I'll take a swing at that one, too, if it's ok.

I started skydiving with the immediate intention of moving on to BASE. I made a bit over 300 skydives in 3 months, and then pretty much just went BASE jumping.

I made most of my skydives on a 150 square foot 9 cell ZP canopy.

If I had it to do over again (and had a bit more knowledge going in), I'd opt to set up a much larger rig and put a BASE canopy in it for those skydives.

REAL HARD, but i guess a little bit of RW would also be VERY funny. at the moment i am not that interested in freeflying, but i remember that when i started with the AFF the situation was inverse. once again: what do i know with only 30 skydives on the credit side...

on the other hand side i think i wouldn't have started and maybe wouldn't continue skydiving (it is indeed a very expensive hobby...) if base wouldn't be in my mind.


well i thought of that a few months ago - infact i had the plan to focuse on base-drills 300% (at least *g*)! but then i contacted an experienced "local" base jumper, skydiving instructor and rigger. he advised me to play the sport (base) as save as possible (!) but on the other hand side told me that he would not buy a really big, docile base-canopy(-alike) for my first canopy. ("what if you stand on the exit-point the first time and you shit your pants after torturing yourself while skydiving for 2 years?")

all his arguments seemed conclusive, even though i wanted to beliefe, that i would will not shit my pants anyway! *g*

the next "problem" i would have to face: infact i am everything but not keen on the fact that the guys at my local dropzone would come to know my getting-into-base-plan. (my AFF-instructor would kill me! *g*)

Depending on what attitude you have displayed at your dropzone so far, that might say more about your dropzone and instructor than about you.

I know a BASE jumper who started playing around with his risers on his first AFF jump. His instructor asked him why he did that. When he learned this jumper's main interest was BASE, it allowed for a more constructive and effective AFF and follow-up program.

As long as you've established a humble, eager, patient and intelligent attitude at your dropzone, they shouldn't have a problem with your desire to get into BASE at some point. In fact, they better get used to it because it's going to make up a growing part of their business into the future.

I don't skydive a whole lot these days, but I always pick the dropzone with the people who supported my desire to get into BASE and enabled me to get their with better preparation (by renting me a student rig that would fit a BASE canopy, by allowing me to skydive a BASE container with a belly-mount, by allowing me to jump with toggles-unstowed or steering-lines outside the grommets, etcetera).

In the long run, honesty pays off...

tom, sorry that i did not ask you explicitly. thank you for your very interesting view!

hmm, ok - that (all the replies in sum) will most likely change my plan.

thank you all for your help once again!

That's insane. It'll probably take me 3 years to get to 300 jumps. What did you do for a living?

most likely his critical position during the AFF-course had something to do with the fact that one day before my course started one of his former students died base-jumping.


you most likely be right.


that's a good point.

(would it be a lie if it was only a secret? *g*)

I was single, had no girlfriend, worked a government job that let me sneak out during the weekdays, and had no cost of living (I owned the house, and rented rooms to my roommates for enough money to cover the entire mortgage payment). I pretty much took every paycheck straight to the dropzone to buy blocks of tickets.

can you give an example of a "proper rig" for let's say a 220 base-canopy?

Dude if you like I am always willing to help out new jumpers. I just happen to have an 89 stiletto sitting around and you're welcome to use it as long as you like. And remember suck it on down HELL ain't half full!!!!

Get your self a Raven or Manta thouse should be really cheap theese days and from what i flew them i think they are close to a BASE canopy,actualy Ravens has and is(but nutters)used as BASE canopyes theese days..

62kg i would choose a 245sqft Raven

cool seeing one who wants to do it the right way. my best whishes that you succsee first pint on me as we meet one day

Vector and Javerlin harneses today are also made freefly safe even in the bigger range..

Also bear in mind that if you cheoose to pack a F-111 canopy into a container you can pack it smaller than your buddy using a ZP canopy.

I think its over eracting to buy a BASe canopy as as soon as you want to start BASE theres a hole new world of canopyes and youll need to try them out aswell also jumping a BASE canopy on a local dz to me is like "look at me i want to be a hardcore a$$ as i grow up" as said i think you´ll be good off whith a 220-240ish Raven rember more time you fly in theese canopyes you tend to want to try out more so you dnt get borred.. you cant blow em up as theyre open.. do stalls pack yourself linetwists etc etc its way fun(i mean it)

how much skydives already done with those canopies would be just acceptable?


wow, that is even larger than my 235 ZP-EXE i jumped during my AFF - therefore i guess i would have to use one of those really big student-rigs?


i will remind you

what do you think of this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


PS: it sucks to be an ignorant beginner!

what would you say to this one:

"another problem is, that you could regularly not go skydiving on (more) windy days, because of the bad gliding-performance of such a docile canopy (e.g. raven). you could maybe "often" not reach the DZ anymore..."

whoever said that seems to have forgotton two skills...
1. how to properly spot a load
2. how to land while going backward

yeah what you say

People who dsnt land back at their dz either dont fly their canopyes correct or they jumped off a bad spot..

Students at big DZ's often don't get taught to spot. And they end up getting out whenever they are told to, after the load was spotted by someone else, for their own flight paths.

It looks fairly good, except:

1) It's probably smaller than you'll want to BASE jump (but still much better practice than a Triathlon or similar canopy),

edit because I read the ad through, and saw that this Raven has bridle attachment point.

too small to skydive it for base-training? or too small to base-jump it from fixed objects?

what size (for a raven) would you recommend for 62 kg (naked ) and do you know which size the next avaiable/produced raven would have? (245?)



how much is that ravenIIg worth?

Too small to jump from fixed objects. Which means that it is less suitable for training with (since, ideally, you'd train with exactly the same canopy as you will BASE jump with).



You'll want a BASE canopy in the 240ish size range. So I'd say the Raven III (249, I think) would be about right.



If I recall correctly, the next size increments of Ravens are 249 and 282.

If possible DONT go to a big DZ. Learning to spot is IMO a essential but larger missed lesson in skydiving. GO to a small 182 DZ, OR take earlier exits, 5k, 6k, etc...

Even getting out lower the pilot will usually spot at a turbine DZ. Some pilots will actually get annoyed when you try to give them corrections to the spot. They have GPS and all the toys afterall

hmmm... isn't teaching spotting skills part of the ISP?

people preparing to BASE should consider opening higher on skydives. that normally provides a better chance of making the field as well as valuable time under canopy.

backing up in a stiff wind also teaches practical accuracy skills. really. if that freaks a jumper out, do you think they should BASE?

disclaimer:
jumping a large parachute in stiff winds is unnerving, risky, and should ONLY be done with care. (just like BASE.)

what do you think:

how many skydives would i get out of that?
how much should i be willing to pay for that?

@tom (and all the others): would you encourage me to buy a Raven II even though a Raven III would most likely be better? (who knows if i get the possibility to buy a Raven III in the next months...)

Probably, especially if it's cheap. If you don't pay much for it, you can always turn it around to recover most of your costs, or just keep it in your closet.

ok.thanks.


PS: what do i (ignorant beginner) know what "cheap" is for such a canopy?

I sold my voodoo/stiletto a couple of years ago and bought a lage container and raven III to use exclusivley as my skydiving rig. It is great to be constantly under a canopy that is similar to my base canopies.
The only negative thing about it is you won't have a small and cool looking rig. But then again who cares!

You should be able to find one cheap, especially if it has been used a few times.

i think that is a borderline personal attack. i know who cares... me! i wouldn't be caught without my tiny "cool guy" rig at a DZ. again, this is where the trash bag method comes in handy. the best of both worlds.

any other opinions on the MANTA? thank you for your help.

manta is 9 cell

yeah Manta is a 9 cell canopy but still a F-111 and BIG i find a Manto a better tool than example any other zp canopyes...
but thats just me ;)

ok, here's an offer - maybe it would be just fine for my purpose:


Raven III (note: i am 62 kg / 136 lbs naked)
06/1987
dacron lines
used as a reserve in student rig
3 jumps
100 Euro (=120 USD)


should i ask the seller how ofter it was packed? (is this that important?)

should this be a Raven or Super Raven - how can i proof? (is it that important?)

so i think this could be perfect for me skydiving it to train for base?

my wingload-calculation:
136 lbs. (weight) + 34 lbs. (gear, clothing, helmet,...) = 170 lbs.
170 lbs. / 249 sqft. (raven III) = 0,68 (wingload)

@tom (and all): what do you think - could the Raven III be a problem for me (62 kg / 136 lbs) on (more) windy days - so that i am not able to get back to dropzone or have to stay on the ground?

i hope i am not too much annoying you due to my large number of posts/questions i posted - i am only an ignorant beginner who wants to make it the right way. thank you once again for your great efforts!


(edited to add: dacron lines)
(edited to add: wingload-calculation)

Sounds very good to me. And the price is right.

I'd jump on it if I were you.

now i am a happy man!

ok, one last (i promise! ) question:

is there anybody out there who would NOT encourage me to buy a RAVEN 3 to skydive it as my (first) main to train for base?

(note: for additional information see post #41)

it's not HOW you learn, but WHAT you learn that is significant. every path has strengths and weaknesses. none are perfect. make your call, make the most of it, and enjoy!

subject: kevlar-lines...

any objections, if someone (guess who! ) would maybe buy a Raven (as his first sydiving-main to train for base - blablabla ) with kevlar-lines on it?

DOM 1991 - used as a reserve - no jumps.

For skydiving use, I think it's fine.

I wouldn't use kevlar lines for BASE, but for this application (skydiving canopy to train) I think it'll be ok.

thanks tom.

i read in the "gear and rigging" forum, that...


are those statements true?

well, i really don't want to have to replace the lines of an cheap, old canopy after 60 jumps...

PS: threat can be found at http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Yes they are.

If you buy that canopy, expect to reline it fairly quickly.

My suggestion would be: Unless you're paying next to nothing for the parachute, keep looking.

well i just got some other information on the kevlar-issue from "my" local (impartial) rigger:


hmmm...?

PS: i hope you can understand my translation from german language into english language...

what could be a proper rig for that task?

PS: i bought a Super Raven III (DOM 1990) - jumped as a reserve only. thank you all for your help!