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I'd be plenty interested to hear from those who've recently been in the market for their first canopy, did a thorough research and chose the Rock Dragon for their first canopy, having tried Troll, Flik and other trusty designs. Come to think of it, I'd love to hear from anybody with any input on the topic What tipped the scale of your preference towards the RD?

Naturally, I like my Troll very much. However, at this stage I mostly don't land it stand-up, preferring to come in brakes nice and slow, PLFing it off. Recently a friend who was learning to pack on my canopy wanted to jump his first packjob, so we went and he jumped my canopy and I jumped somebody else's slow canopy. To my surprise it was that much easier to land than the Troll, perhaps because its full-flight speed equalled that of the Troll in 3/4 brakes, and the flare was better because of the longer toggle stroke (as opposed to that 1/4 bit I have remaining on the Troll). I am thinking I may like slow canopies better after all. . .

Have you had a chance to jump a BlackJack yet?

Nope, have yet to come across somebody who owns one in a suitable size. Why? Isn't the BlackJack an Ace with vents/valves, and aren't Aces pretty fast?

Yes, the ACE is a non-vented BlackJack.

The BlackJack is such a stable canopy is super deep brake approaches and has massive flare power. Even from half brakes, you can get an impressive flare.

The canopy is very predictable in its entire control range. It's very easy to sink into tight landing areas because it is so stable even if stalling vertically and then transitioning back into flight for landing.

What size canopy are you looking for?

well, this may be crap...

i thought speed of a base-canopy mostly depends on break-settings?

as i already mentioned - this may be crap - forgive me, i am new to canopy-sports - but would appreciate it if anybody could explain the facts on this topic.



edited: spelling

I never flown a BlackJack but I know some people (like PK) who really like theirs and there is no reason why I wouldn't like one as well if I ever got to try one.

I'm not a BASE guru (likely never will be), but I am passionate about canopy flight and I enjoy flying small sub-100 square foot high performance pocket rocket cross-braced swooping machines. I enjoy flying moderately sized traditional 7 and 9 cell skydiving canopies and enjoy flying my Flik 293 and Rock Draggon 303 BASE canopies. I have no problems flying both my FLiK and my Rock Draggon in 1/2 brakes and still have plenty of flare left over to still standup the vast majority of my BASE canopy landings. In fact I seem to get better landings on the BASE canopies coming in in 1/2 brakes than I do coming in in full flight. Both canopies have vents and valves and unless I'm mistaken I believe it's the valves which allows us to come in in 1/2 brakes and still have enough flare to stand up our landings. But there is a common saying in the canopy control forum and that is, "It's not the canopy, it's the pilot". And if people don't believe me, there is video out there on skydivingmovies.com of Scott Miller swooping the shit out of a large Navigator canopy.

It's not the canopy, it's the pilot.

Nope, it's not the brake settings that make a canopy faster or slower. The brake setting is what determines the forward speed with the brakes set... which is important when the canopy opens.

Ideally the proper setting will allow the canopy to open with zero forward speed for a few moments. That setting is pretty close to a stall.

On any canopy, once the brakes are released, the airfoil and wingload determines the potential speed of the parachute in full flight. The person flying it will deteremine how much of the available speed he wishes to use.

By the way, I agree with DexterBase on his assesment of the BlackJack.

a canopy meets the air at a given angle. this is a designed in factor called "trim." it is controlled by the length of the suspension lines. how a canopy is trimmed greatly affects it's speed in full flight.

your brake settings change the trim and the speed of the canopy with STOWED brakes. (Jaap can explain why it can be beneficial to adjust your personal brake settings.)

other factors also contribute to the speed of the canopy, such as airfoil shape. the builders make those choices. you can research those differences or simply jump some and find the canopy you prefer.

I am sure the same could be said of Troll, right? I don't doubt that either is a fine canopy... I just remember TA telling me the RD is the canopy with the slowest forward speed. That means the greatest toggle stroke (of all canopies made to fly at the same speed), which for me that one time meant a landing on an overloaded 265 that was much softer than and just as comfortably slow as on the Troll 305.

Canuck, I totally agree that in the right hands any BASE canopy will do the job of landing the pilot safely just fine. I sure need more practice. I just think RD might make it somewhat easier for reasons stated above. Not that I expect to swap Troll for RD and become the invincible jumper with 100% perfect landings on a dime, either.

You are confusing forward speed at opening (with brakes set) and available (i.e. maximum) forward speed.

See discussion here.

I can't remember if your Troll has 4 or 5 brake lines?

5. Stane wanted it that way

I'm sure this is no longer the case but when I purchased my Rock Draggon around this time last year, JimmyP informed me that I would be a test pilot since I was the only one at the time with the 5th control line on their Rock Draggon. But I like the 5th control line on my FLiK so I told him to go ahead and put in on the Rock Draggon. You only live once right and someone needs to be the test pilot. I've only got 10-12 jumps on the canopy, so I'm hardly an expert with it, but I thoroughly have enjoyed it so far. It's just that I know my brake settings on my FLiK are dialed in and I will grab the FLiK before the Rock Draggon when I'm only doing one jump from our local E.

I need to get my ass out to Twin in the not too distant future to get the brake settings dialed in on the Rock Draggon though. Plus thanks to being a dumb ass, I was forced to land it on rears on my very first jump on it at Twin last year when I incorrectly set the brakes on a slider off jump and lost a toggle on opening. But fortunately this jump happened in a somewhat forgiving environment that I was familiar with and I landed on the beach with no incident. It wasn't something I'd like to get into the habit of doing, but the landing was kind of like a mini swoop.

Hi,

Which Troll MDV do you have - DW or older version? Also, were the wing-loadings the same on the friend's canopy you borrowed (using Troll PIA size for comparison) same as on your Troll? Was your friend's slow canopy a RockDragon? Also, how do the two canopies compare in terms of condition?

Apologies for the many questions, just trying to get some background.

Will

I am only too happy to ramble


Ooh, this is a tricky one. It's got 5 vents like the DW, but it retains the (older) airfoil like the 4-vent MDV. It's one of the first canopies to be made with DW MDV. (Indeed, it's DOM is Sep 04, and my mentor's Troll used on my student jumps, DOM Nov 04, has 4 vents).


No, it's a locally manufactured canopy called Hacker, size 260 or so. It's significantly slower than Troll. Condition the same, practically brand new.


Rather different: 0.72 on Troll, 0.84 on Hacker.

fixed it fr you!

Yes it will swoop with the correct input but it has very good deep brake approach characteristics.

I'm not sure your comment is meant to suggest the BlackJack has only "fast" flight characteristics or has the available faster flight characteristics.

Continuum 2 has some very good footage of JimmyP swooping his BASE canopy. I think it's a Dagger. He made it do that with front riser input. In other words, he hooked it in. I've hooked in my old Mojo (and several other 7 cell canopies) and it swooped fairly well.

Depending on the landing zone and my mood, I'll either sink it, or swoop it. The BlackJack is not a radical canopy, it's just a big ass 7 cell like the others. If you let it fly in full flight, it will go pretty fast but honestly, how often do you use full flight mode on any BASE canopy? In a tight landing zone, probably never.

No doubt.



It’s meant to suggest that swooping your base canopy is fun and the Blackjack does it well.


fixed it for you


Every chance I get. Probably on at least 80% of my jumps so far.



Indeed, but what is tight? Tombstone? Echo? Wall Street? I think those are all swp approved!

dexterbase knows what I mean about the blackjack..

thank you for your helping answers.

i am such a dumb-ass! well, i was very (!) hungry when i posted - so maybe you can all forgive me...

You have mentioned you'd like a slower flying canopy.

I'd start with the WL. Both of the WLs you mentioned are on the "top end" by today's standard. Things seem to go in opposite direction than in SD when it comes to WL and BASE canopies.

Try to get your hands on a canopy that you will be loading it at .65 as a starting point.

The BJ is an Ace with the valves. The biggest differences between the Ace and other platforms are the angle of incidence and the length of the lines.

The Ace is trimmed pretty steep, I think it's actually one of the steepest among BASE canopies. This is a good trait for the openings. On the other hand, it won't glide as far, sometimes this can also be a good trait. Also the canopy will have a larger vertical velocity than a canopy trimmed shallower. This can be a problem in a no-flare situation because vertical speed hurts more than horizontal speed.

The lines being so long I think they are responsible, at least in part, for its great flare in all modes.

The con of having such a long lines is the recovery arc of the canopy that is going to be more negative than, let's say, a Fox or Flik of the same size. This translates in possible problems if you make a low and aggressive turn close to the ground. A Fox or Flik will recover faster and give you less "pendulum" effect than an Ace.

Another problem is doing rollovers because you have to jump with a greater force in order to keep line tension.

IMHO, a good canopy pilot, let's say someone with several HP landings, will enjoy more an Ace or BJ due to its more negative recovery arc, steeper trim, and more responsiveness to front risers. Said that both of these canopies might put you in more delicate situations if you do not stay on top of the game.

Tom, please take it further...

Thanks for a great reply! I have not known about such differencies and the effect they have.


Um... 305 is the biggest size Troll they will produce. I am losing weight! Honestly! I was 12 kg fatter than I am today when I started BASE. :)

One more reason to go to a Rock Dragon is the additional 8 square feet of nylon I am going to gain, eh.

That's a bad reason to switch canopies.

If you lay my Troll 290 out on top of a Blackjack 310, they are almost identical sizes. It would be a mistake to move from that "290" Troll to the "310" Blackjack and expect to get an additional 20 square feet of nylon.

The numbers used to describe canopies (and pilot chutes, too, for that matter) ought to be viewed as "model names" rather than precise size specifications. They definitely do not transfer directly across between manufacturers.

Obviously, and for similar reasons, this means that discussions of wingloading using precise decimal numbers ought to be taken with a grain of salt as well.

Ok, thanks.

Tight... well, Tombstone is certainly not tight


I'm not quite sure why you would say that. The Ace/BlackJack have a whole lot of glide.


I fixed it back. It has a large range. It will glide a long way in full flight or 1/4 brakes and it will sink quite steep with 3/4 brakes or just above stall.

Anyway, the bottom line is it's a good parachute and I'll be happy to swoop the same landing zone with you sometime.

Which landing area at Tombstone?

There are tight landing areas there, but they don't include the road or the large meadow down in the basin.

Over on the big boulder is an intersting and very possible landing area.

"Hole in the Woods" up here in washington is a TIGHT landing area. (That's not a site name. Google it if you don't believe me.)

Edit: Tight landing area added. Yellow is the only landing area that will probably keep you out of the hospital. I've jumped it twice and I'm not sure I'd jump it again.

Interesting article by the late Ian Bellis on canopy sizing. Might shed some light on the measuring of canopies being open to interpretation. Very interesting.


http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/packvol.pdf

Not the tight one

I got to see the uncensored version, will you kill me now?

Your joking right. Why did you do that. why don't you just put a rope around your neck and jump like that.come on.no won wants to see you get hurt. At least on this forum. why would some one tell you to get a RD they must hate you or be really really dumb.
why don't you just use a bed sheet