Basejumper.com - archive

It may seem that way, but from the sound of the post from a family member he wanted the notifications to go that way. He went through the trouble of writing a letter that he kept on himself. He and his jump buddies had a game plan. Although it is a bad way to find out a loved one has died, and it may or may not be able to keep the jumpers anonymous it was the plan.

edit for thread title ~TA

Leaving the body of a friend exposed to the elements is not a plan. Leaving a mother to wonder what has happened to her son is not a plan.

I've posted a link to the other thread in the Bonfire. Maybe someone knows who "Mike" is, and can obtain from him the information needed to recover Scott's body and give his mother a little peace.

rl

years ago in my army days we in the rangers had a moto
we NEVER leave a man (friend) behind

bad plan=heart ache for the family

lets be safe up there

..

Whether people think it’s a good idea or not some people have a pact to leave the killed jumper behind and make an anonymous phone call. The problem here is that the anonymous phone call wasn’t very informative. I think that is the BIG problem people are having with this one.

I did not start this thread TA split it off from the other one. I was just commenting that this was the plan that they had, and it was followed out like it appears they wanted it to.

I think a better way would be to drop the person off at a emergency room. How do they know there was nothing that could have been done for him? At least the body would have accountability, it dose solve some of the legal consequences such as abandonment. Most importantly the family has the fact that he was brought to emergency care, all that could be done was done instead of lying under an object somewhere never knowing what could have been. You could say when you drop the jumper off at the ER that he called you on a cell phone, and told you where he was and that he was going to base jump and that if you did not hear from him later to come looking. A hour passed, and you did not hear from your friend, and you found him and brought him there. I am not sure in this case it is better to tell a lie like that or the truth since it will probbaly get pretty complicated with the police and all. Some people might be able to go that route tho..

I understand that some people may have made a pact but in my eyes I think it's inhumane. On another site, I read one of the family members post stating something along the lines of "This is supposely how it's done when BASE jumping because it's illegal" I'm sure his family has *great feelings* (sarcasm) towards the ethics/morals of the base jumping community in general at this time..... I don't care what legality issues I may face..if one of my crew goes in...I'm not leaving their body, even if they carry a note saying *LEAVE ME HERE FOR THE ANIMALS!* I don't care what I may get charged with...they are my friends and they are my family. That includes others I may jump with as well...if I jump with someone..the first thing I must feel is respect and trust...and in that I am taking the belief that if I were to go in they are not going to leave my body and call my family a day or two after the fact to just tell them I'm dead with no details. This entire situation just turns my stomach.

Have a heart.

Amanda

*Edited to add that this was not directed towards anyone. I was just quoting part of Russel's post.

I totally agree with you on this one. I wouldn't leave anyone behind. I was just stating that some people plan it that way and this seems to be one of them. Like I said before, the anonymous caller could have at least said where it happened! The plan just wasn't executed very well.

Edited for spelling.

I don't base (yet...) but this is obviously something that is, or certainly should be, going round in the skull of anyone considering taking up this odd activity.

A fatailty is IT, end-ex, game over, whatever. No dicking around with pacts, secrecy or cloak and dagger ops. There are a million and one ways to release the info, get your thumb outa your arse and tell someone.

I know.

My post was in that thread and moved along with yours.

My position is the same no matter where it's posted.

I don't really give a flying fuck about The Pact. When one of your friends dies, you don't leave him behind.

But even if I believed differently, this situation is, on its face, unforgiveable.

rl

Things make people wonder.. actualy i always tell people to leave me behind in case i die.. however i do expect them to call the police or what ever and tell were to locate my body..

I do agree that if there were a plan it wasnt either not well planed or well executed..

While the idea of leaving a fallen jumper at the object doesn't seem to be very accepted by the BASE community, from my point of view it's reasonable. If that was the jumpers' plan, and they followed that plan, there's nothing inappropriate or illegitimate in it. If I and another jumper had agreed ahead of time that the best thing to do in case of a fatality is to leave the body behind, I would do that. The obvious reasons this may be desirable:

1) It helps protect other jumpers on the load from legal and other repercussions.
2) It may help protect the object from being lost to the BASE community (unlikely, but possible).

If I were to go in on a jump, I would have no problem with other jumpers leaving my body at the site. Honestly, I would hope that they do everything possible to protect themselves from possible repercussions. There's no sense in my friends and fellow jumpers facing jail time, lost employment, etc. because of a jump gone terribly wrong.

However, there is no excuse whatsoever for not informing the family and/or authorities where to find the remains. This can easily be done anonymously from a public telephone, or in a dozen other ways. Detailed instructions should be passed on to aid the family in recovering their loved one. There is no sane reason not to do this. It is the compassionate thing to do. It is the human thing to do, offering the family a sense of closure.

Furthermore, failing to notify "someone" where to find the remains does a huge disservice to the BASE community. While any fatality hurts the sport, the complications of a fatality and a missing person / missing remains do much more damage than the fatality itself. If jumpers do agree that, in case of a fatality, the remains are left at the site, they must understand that under no circumstances does that release them from a responsibility to inform the family and/or authorities about the location of the jumper. This is mainly to give the family closure in terrible times, and also helps to minimize collateral damage to the sport.

I don't BASE at this point, but know people that do. I have heard that in some scenarios in Urban BASE, if you don't make the rendevous, you get left behind. I have come to understand this as part of the rules of the game. I would like to hear what more people have to say about making this type of plan. Is it accepatble to make a plan to leave people behind?

I must admit - I see both sides of the coin as well. Sure its not the best thing for the deceased's family and all, but hey, if that's what the guy decided, thats HIS wishes. The world is a messed up ball of wonder, this is just another strand unravling itself. To each his own no matter.

Edited to add: in the 4 cases where I've been GCing where bad injuries have occured, I've stuck with the jumper - twice risking arrest. It is not my belief to leave anyone behind nor would I ever.

 


Please tell me you are fucking kidding about both of these points???? Legal and other repercussions? If you cant take the fucking punishment dont commit the fucking crime!! loss of an object??? Yep, that is worth a life

Why do base jumpers act as though the act of base jumping is such a heinous crime? You are not robbing a bank, raping a woman, or committing some other crime that could perhaps result in a lengthy prison term. You are jumping off something, that is it. Perhaps the thought of the entire law enforcement community having a hard on for you makes it more exciting, but come on guys, do you really think that is the case?

Why the secrecy? Why the drama? Sure, you need to keep your sacred "objects" secret and perhaps you need to live your life like an outlaw () but must it be done at the expense of a life? To me that makes base jumping pretty fucking uncool.

Do sport bike riders have a pact like this? Are they committing illegal activities on back roads that they may prefer to keep quiet? Sure. Would it be acceptable for a sport bike rider to leave the scene if a buddy wrapped himself around a tree? Hell no.

Why would anyone ever think it is acceptable to leave a dead, dying or severely hurt person behind? That is the most ridiculous load of bullshit I have ever heard.


edited to add: Perhaps the brainiacs with these types of pacts need to realize that they are putting themselves in even more jeopardy in a legal sense by leaving the scene. Bet ya never thought about that now did ya

what is worse? Legal punishment or a human in the desert rotting, family without closure? I would rather go through a couple thousand dollars then live with the fact that I left a human in the wilderness to get eaten by rodents and birds and not have a final resting place.

if i die on a jump, just leave my body there and call the authorities to retrieve it. at that point, it's an empty dead shell. and then said living jumpers should call my family and provide sufficient details. if i'm hurt, i expect my fellow jumpers to make any sacrifice required to save my butt.

FYI, when Susan Ottley died in Yosemite, her jumping partner was charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Abandoning this guys body for so long without accurately informing the family borders on evil.

I agree with most of what you said. I just wanted to point out the fact that I think these pacts are only if the person is already dead, not if they are injured or dying.

I see both sides, if this is something that the jumper agreed then that was his choice. I do think the family deserves closure and this is maybe a wake up call for B.A.S.E to re-evaluate thier pacts. I personally would not make a pact to leave someone in the case of a fatality, and I will make that known once I am able to take up this sport. I would rather be charged , tried, and jailed then leave.

I understand your point of view, and realize that different people will act differently in the case of a fatality. It is my personal opinion that, in the case when someone is definitely, without a doubt, dead, there is nothing wrong in leaving their remains behind as long as you make sure they will be found in a reasonable period of time. Notice I am not advocating leaving an injured jumper behind.

The more I think about your response, the more I realize such a situation is very unlikely. In most cases the fallen jumper would be reached very soon after the incident. In such situations, resuscitation or other immediate treatments might help. In such situations there is no excuse for leaving a jumper - you call 911 and accept the results.

However, I disagree with your argument that the repercussions will always be small. Aside from the obvious trespassing and potentially lost job, repercussions could further include criminal negligence, manslaughter, or even second / third degree murder. Imagine the case of an antenna worker providing lift access to a few BASE jumpers. In this case even a non-jumper could face severe repercussions from a fatality. What about if a jumper goes in while using my gear? What about if a jumper goes in intoxicated using my gear?

I understand your argument that "if you do the crime you should be prepared to do the time". However, if I were to go in and it were absolutely 100% clear that I were dead, I would want my fellow jumpers to immediately do everything they could to protect themselves. Like I said earlier, there's no sense in their lives being ruined as collateral damage. And it makes no difference to me whether my body is recovered immediately or 3 hours later after an anonymous phone call.

Well, that's my rationale for what I stated earlier. Even if you disagree, I hope you can respect my opinion.

Disclaimer: I have very little experience in BASE, so take my comments accordingly.

in some old discusion (here or on blinc) i read that the most experienced guy or (if the experienced guy had problems before) the guy with the less problems will stay with the buddie and wait the authorities
i think that`s the way to deal with that situation
and if u think the idea to leave a friend there is acceptable i`m SPEACHLESS

we are HUMANS not animals... think about it

"Animals don't have a choice.
If they're not happy with their place in the world... too bad.
They have to live the life they've been given.
Humans, on the other hand, don't have to.
We have a choice."

Seconded. What a louzy plan. Leaving the scene is one thing. Not properly informing the family is COLD and pointless.

This thing bothers me a lot and I don't even know the guy. I usually don't give a toss...but this bothers me. Imagine being the family.

My sincerest condolences!

Charged with, but was her partner convicted?

Charge me with whatever you need in order to please yourself, but then let the jury decide. Honestly, I think it would be VERY difficult to convict someone of involuntary manslaughter in a base jumping incident. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

I won't leave someone. That's just the way I feel about it....



I personally may not respect your opinion....but I do respect your right to have them.

Who said anything about "at the expense of a life"? I might have missed something, but I thought the discussion involved leaving remains behind, not leaving a busted up jumper to die of his injuries.

I agree that the "Mike" person in this particular incident should have at least identified the deceased's location, but I wouldn't want my friends to go to jail just because I somehow got myself dead.

Blues,
Dave

I would rather spend some time in jail than spend the rest of my life haunted by the fact that I left a friend behind.

rl

i can see where and agressive da may persue manslaughter charges against other jumpers, but how many people have been convicted under these or similar circumstances? i would think the likelyhood of successful prosicution would be would be greater if an autopsy revieled that an immediate emergency response may have saved a life. as far as trouble at work, that is a risk you will have to accept. one of the primary reasons that i've declined offers to base jump in the past is because even a trespassing charge could cause me problems at work. for this reason i cannot buy the possible loss of a job as a valid excuse. i also cannot accept the possibility of blowing a secret base sight because the site will be blown anyway when the body is found. is this pact really necessary?

Thankfully I've never had to make such a choice, as being a survivor rather than the deceased would very likely change my opinion.

Blues,
Dave

I can see how the associate who left this gentleman behind was probably scared to death. So, what do you do? I doubt the "Aggresive D.A." would understand the "Base Code" or any unwritten law and protocol.

That said i can hardly fault the guy that left with the understanding that he and the jumper that was killed had that agreement in place beforehand. He should have however given the family the X's & Y's to locate his body. That part REALLY bothers me.

Its a sad story. I fear it's only going to get worse. I feel for the family, This is NOT how its supposed to go.

Well, that's the thing.

Most of the people I know who support The Pact if it's their body being left behind wouldn't leave if it were someone else's body.

rl

Its a sad story. I fear it's only going to get worse. I feel for the family, This is NOT how its supposed to go.

----------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, not to mention this kind of bullshit draws even more negativity to the sport. I could only imagine the DA holding a press conference denouncing BASE as a sinister club of renegades.

This whole thing is really creeping me out.

I'm really sorry for the family and for the rest of the BASE community for having to be associated with such a disgusting act.

Ditto, 110% And pretty please, take my gear off!

Beware of removing the rig of a fallen jumper. It turns a BASE accident into a suicide. Which is worse for the family?

Please re-read what 440 wrote.


I could not care less if the authorities call it a suicide, actually even better because suicides do not make any news.

About two weeks ago a guy jumped off our local S with no gear. We thought he burned the site. Nothing in the news and newspapers.

Please take my gear with you and do make it look like a suicide!

Besides from certain situations where your body may be turned inside out and you are obviously dead, do you really trust your fellow base jumper to check your vital signs and confirm with absolute 100% certainty that you are in fact dead?

Believe it or not, but my bet is that a good majority of base jumpers would have no clue how to distinguish the difference between a fellow base jumper that is barely hanging on and could perhaps be saved by medical attention and one that has died.

But hey, what the fuck does it matter anyways? As long as there is only a dead empty shell left behind, nobody goes to jail and the object doesnt get burned then all is good right?

I agree, clearly this solution makes the best of the circumstances for all involved parties.
Edited to add: perhaps even carry a suicide note with the first aid kit in case the first aid kit isn't useful.

Yes. He refused to give up the other jumpers on the load, and the NPS really stuck it to him as hard as they could.

For the record, in that single incident, I think that Keith showed more character than I'm likely to have in my entire life.

Something to consider: some life insurance policies do not pay out if you commit suicide. By the incident being ruled as a suicide, the deceased's family may be left high and dry.

Bryan

You are saying the person was charged with and convicted of involuntary manslaughter?

Aerial Delivery, if I recall correctly. It was a large affair, that involved a substantial time in custody, some plea bargaining, some lawyers, and a conviction that has followed him around ever since.

I think that as a jumper one has the responsibility to respect whatever pact was made if you jump with them. Or disagree with it and not jump with them. I'm sure it's not all cut and dried as this but It's your duty to accept or reject the pact.
I hope that everyone gets what they need from this incident. And as much as I hate to see the family suffer, a man's word is his salvation. I would die a very lesser man to not honor my word to a friend who died or lived. I would be torn, But I would have to respect my BASE Bro's pact if I did accept it. Going to jail or burning a site would not matter. Only keeping my word that he trusted me with would be important.
Know the pact. and play or not accordingly.
my 2 cents.
take care,
space

Part of the risk of this sport, if you choose to do it illegaly,is that you may find yourself facing the police with your dead friend lying on the ground before you. If you don't have what it takes to stand there and face it like a man(or woman)then you shouldn't be doing it in the first fucking place .Jump at the Perrine or some of the other legal object but stay away from the illegal ones if you aren't prepared to face the consequences. Calling days later and not giving enough info to find the body is inexcusable.

Wow. So are you guys telling me that the threat of being charged with "aeriel delivery" is a major concern and basis for leaving a fellow jumper that has died? Seriously?

The way your post was laid out it appeared as though the person was in fact charged with involuntary manslaughter.

I am still waiting for one valid reason to be posted by the base community that supports and vindicates ones action for leaving a fellow jumper that is either dead, dying, or injured. Sorry, if you think the reasons given out thus far are valid, I just dont seem to think so.

Not trying to be a dick, just trying to understand the thought process and reasoning behind all this.

Also beware of removing the rig for this reason. If the cops figure out that gear was removed from the decieced it opens a whole new can of worms. Non jumpers wouldn't understand reasoning behind removal of gear, and it may suggest to them some foul play was involved. I would refrain from disturbing the scene as much as possible.

Also how do others feel about this comment by funks


I get the impression that many of us have gone out and recieved some type of medical training. I have a medical first responder rating. How about some of the rescues in Moab that have been performed by base jumpers. As far as I am concerned some of those were beyond amazing.

I've tried to stay out of this discussion up to this point because I'm still a very new jumper, however I just thought that I'd point out (as people have already done) that this discussion does not relate to "dying, or injured". Just dead. I also believe that a majority of BASE jumpers would in fact know how to check a fallen jumper's vital signs. It's really not that difficult.

If I had such a pact, I would definitely find it hard to leave the body in the first place. I, personally, would not be able to bring myself to leave the scene unless I personally verified, with zero doubt in my mind, that my friend was dead. I would also probably want to spend a few moments to reflect and say a prayer or two.

This, of course, only applies to the hypothetical situation that I actually had entered into a pact like this. At the moment, considering all things, I see no reason for me to enter a pact like this as I currently am not in a position that would leave me overly vulnerable if arrested, i.e. outstanding warrants etc. I do believe that I would follow the wishes of the jumper, if that was what he wanted and he made it clear beforehand. Then again, I may panic and just wait there to be arrested either way... you never know these things until it happens.

This is the impression that I get as well. I attended an Outdoor Emergency Care (OEC) course with the ski patrol a few years ago, and have CPR and AED certifications (not current, but I still remember).

in reply to "I am still waiting for one valid reason to be posted by the base community that supports and vindicates ones action for leaving a fellow jumper that is either dead, dying, or injured. "
.......................

Just wondering ....does all this mean that some wreel secret base sites have base jumpers buried nearby? or the odd bit of bone sticking out of the ground?

That pretty much sums it up...

I refer you to http://www.deadmike.com.

When the ambulance left the WFFC, the lights were off and they were driving slow, because there was no reason to turn the lights on and drive fast. Mike was dead.

He died in August 1997. He made a base jump at Bridge Day in 1998.

He is currently a 43-year old dead guy.

Apparently it's more difficult than you think.

rl

your problem is that you are judging the BASE community on the actions of one individual. i don't recall reading a single post by a BASE jumper that indicated that he would leave...only those saying that they would want their partners on the load to leave them. little different.

I've read his story in the past and I had the feeling that somebody would mention it. Those cases are in the extreme, extreme minority, however.

Regardless, if you call an ambulance and stay on the scene, or if you call an ambulance and leave, real medical help would still arrive at the same time, so in the unlikely event that they 'came back to life'... ehhh i dunno....

fuck it... i probably would never leave the scene myself, but if somebody else in some other crew somewhere had this pact, and his buddies left him after he was dead (even if he came back to life later), i won't criticize them for listening to his last request. As long as they notify the correct people, right away, with sufficient information, as has been said before.

I think the current situation is downright embarrassing to the sport (not to mention irresponsible, tragic, and cold), and I see no reason for "mike" to not give more information than "your son is dead". That really pisses me off.

Then again, I don't know the whole story, so I can't entirely judge anybody yet.

This whole issue is a really grey area. I'm not even entirely sure of my own opinion, so I think i'll just step back and let other people post now...

If any of Scott's family or friends end up reading this thread, you have my deepest condolences. I really pray that this will get worked out as soon as possible so that you can find closure.

Two adults participating in an adult sport. They had talked out what to do in advance if shit hit the fan. What's the point in talking it out if you aren't going to follow it? If you don't like the arrangement, don't jump with that load/crew.

For example, if you wanted your dead body left behind, no problem. But I would not start cutting gear off a corpse. So if NickNitro absolutely insisted that I cut gear off his corpse, I guess I won't be jumping these kinds of loads with him.

Maybe this guy Mike is on probation or parole... Or wanted for a crime or back taxes or something... Could be lots of things unrelated to this jump that a run in with law enforcement would result in horrific consequences.

I'm crossing my fingers for this Mike guy to have left a map or details for the family when he mailed the note to them...giving himself a chance to get as far away from the scene as possible in the meantime.

exactly. well said.

Since I don't know how close these guys were, how they came to agree on such a pact if there was one or how it really went down I'll just throw down my thoughts on this as a hypothetical situation.
The whole pact thing to me is a little nutz but if these guys really truly believe in this little contract then whatevs, that is their business as far as I am concerned.
If they really left him lying there for the coyotes and told no one the location of the body As Soon As Fucking Possible that is really beyond disgusting and Karma is a bitch!
I feel happy knowing that myself and the people I choose to jump with don't need such pacts because nobody would ever get left behind no matter what.....NOT EVER!

Adios, I agree with most of your post. If it was an SOB in the situation, I'd like to think that someone would stick around my dead ass until the coroner got there. And I damn sure know that I wouldn't leave one of you guys lying there, and just haul ass.

UNLESS, we had had some sort of conversation prior to the event that was of some other wishes. If a brother has a particular wish upon such an event, I would respect his wishes.

That being said, there are plenty of ways to notify the authorities with it coming back to haunt you. I can't imagine that an anonymously placed phone call from a pay phone about a dead base jumper would create a CSI like investigation of said payphone or that my voice would be running through all sort of voice recognition software trying to find me. I'd like to think the cops have something more important to do than try to track down some guy that witnessed a guy go in on a base jump.

Ganja "DON'T LEAVE ME BEHIND, BUT DON"T GET BUSTED OVER MY DEAD SELF EITHER" Rodriguez

No. It isn't.

Adam Fillipino said it best in a post to The Base Board on May 31, 2002:


I can't do any better than that.

rl

 

Huh?

How did you get that out of my posts?

I, personally, would not be willing to leave a man down on the ground. I wouldn't be willing to live with myself having made that decision.

I'm really confused as to where you got "I'd bail and leave someone" out of my posts. Can you point it out to me so that I can go back and clear up the misconception?

Thanks!

Very well said 515.

OK - CASE POINT: A recent BASE fatality here in Oz. Local "E" that has a history of busts and fines. Jumper on the load known well to all who were there goes in and all on the load split. An anonymous call is made to the police as to the location. The jumper is, without question, deceased. The initial intention was for one jumper to stay with the deceased as the others left (not a bad plan) but for some reasone this jumper decided to leave as well after the others had left. The result was the apperance that all had decided to leave the scene. In the news aftermath the media (print & TV) focused intensely on the fact that his "friends abandoned him". This fact was the prelude and headline on every story on the incident. It was very bad publicity for BASE here. At least one jumper on the load that I know well has much regret about leaving the scene and had much turmoil over the choice made. The jumpers parents were outraged as was the public and police. The parents held much anomosity toward those that abandoned their son.

Just a factual slice of the aftermath of "bailing out".

g.

My response was not meant as an accusation that you personally would leave a fellow jumper out of fear of this charge. My response was more so directed at all the other posters that have said legal ramification is a concern and something that would be taken into consideration as justification for leaving a fellow jumper.

I went back and edited the title of my response, I apologize if it did appear as though it was directed at you, it wasnt. Thanks -

Just wondering, is he so overwhelmed with grief that he would turn himself in? I thought not.

I've already said, if this is the "Pact" or "Agreement" made between BASE jumpers prior to making any subsequent jumps, so be it. BUT not giving the next of kin the X's & Y's is horrific. GPS devices are just too stinking cheap.

a friend called and said this story just aired on chanel 2 in LA.

IMO:
My guess at the reason would probably be that dead bodies tend to get lonely, hence the collective nature of morgues and cemeteries. That way fresh bodies that go to a morgue don't get lonely cause they have a bunch of other bodies to be sociable with. So when nobody is around to keep the expired body company while it waits for the county coroner, it naturally gets lonely, and that's inhumane. The big difference when a body expires and is waiting 30 minutes or X minutes or however long the coroner takes to get there, is to keep it company, thereby guarding against its loneliness.

BASE jumpers sould include incredible detail into their risk assessment.

one possibility is that do to job issues, prior arrests, outstanding warrants, etc. your jump partner might not want to stick around and be arrested. if anyone thinks this way, IT MUST BE DISCUSSED. I might choose not to jump.

most of the posts appear to realize this is a hypothetical reality. few agree with leaving a fallen comrade. please don't confuse expressing a reason for this "pact" as condoning it.

oh, and NO ONE appears happy with the woefully inadequate communication.

More cases to consider (two tower fatalities in US):

#1: dealt with by the pact (anonymous call to authorities, video tape removed). Police has opened a homicide investigation and tracked other jumpers down the next day. Jumpers were threatened but did not get charged. The tape had to be turned over to police, became public domain and was shown on TV all over the country.

#2: jumpers stayed with the body. Not charged, as no law was broken in front of police.

The outcomes of both cases were pretty similar. #2 got resolved quicker.

I had to deal with two cliff fatalities and coordinated S&R with police before. However those happened at legal sites in a civilized country.

From a pure technical point of view, once an emergency call is made and all relevant information is passed on to authorities, you are not very useful.

After all necessary steps are done, i would not blame those who choose to leave. As an example, in USA, anybody who is not a citizen cannot afford to be even charged with a crime - you are screwed even if it never goes to court or is dismissed. Many other situations exist where staying will bring more harm then good. If you think you can help the living by staying with a body, please do so. If not, do not ruin another life.

There is no easy answer - it will always be a hard choice. Whatever you do, please use common sense.

bsbd!

Yuri.

I don't think I could make that wish though... or at least not force someone to do something against what they want to do. The whole "Pact" thing does just seem like over-the-top bravado/cloak-and-dagger BS. My request would just be to do what you feel is best. And depending on the situation, how hard would it be to just claim ignorance? You don't have to admit to anything or incriminate yourself. Maybe I'm over-simplifying... I've been known to.

 

I think the current situation is downright embarrassing to the sport (not to mention irresponsible, tragic, and cold), and I see no reason for "mike" to not give more information than "your son is dead". That really pisses me off.


The above about sums it up for me-hey "Mike guy" grow some damn balls and step back up to the plate; otherwise go burn your gear and crawl back in your damn hole!
And as others have said-no shit-do not remove gear or disturb the scene other than to attempt to render aid!!!! I realize I may think differently after working the street, but it boggles my mind that anyone would suggest doing this.
To do so just raises all the red flags of possible foul play!!! And then the diggin will really start; just as stated happened in another post here.

removed by request of poster ~TA

we can all site here high and mighty but everyone on this site is paranoid about getting nicked thats why we speek in code and don't talk about sites.
ya this mike messed up. But did u ever think he's so upset that he's not thinking strait, would u be after seeing your freind go in .Can u even think of the paranioa. last night I almost walked away from a site because i was afraid of getting cought not flicking but going back to jail. I mean i jumped any way but it was pretty laim.

I'm sorry for your loss, I know what you must be going through right now and I appologise for the childish actions of the other jumper. If Mike sat there until your son died then he had time to do someting to save him. I know this must be very tough on you and I appreciate you not holding it against the community in general.
On New Years eve, I had to deal with the same decisions as Mike and I chose to stay and be with my dead friend and to be there for my other friends who were also present at the time of the accident. It's a personal choice but a persons true character shows in times of tradegy, that's why jumpers need to choose their jump partners wisely as you stated.

I hope soon you will be able to put this issue to rest.
My thoughts are with you.
Jason

Yes, I was thinking clearly after my friend died 3 weeks ago in front of me. I made the call, I stayed at the site, I dealt with the cops just as the 3 others that were there and I'm pretty sure we all sleep better at night knowing that we stayed with a fallen brother. His family also appreciated us for not fleeing the scene like in this incident. Maybe people should think more of others than of themselves once in a while... the world might be a better place if we did.

Jason

my hat goes off to u, you are what we all strive to be.
but not everyone is as strong as u thats why your a real base jumper u think rasionaly under pressure.
and if u cant do that then maybe u shouldn't be jumping. that is for everyone else.but I thank u for setting a good example it's good to have freinds like u . it would be a honer to flick with u some day

srew that I would burn anyone of my site for my family base jumpers and skydivers are the only family most of us have and on evrey jump even the ones weve flicked 50 or 60 time day blazing, i tell everyone there that i love them because on any given jump u can die and i want to tell my freinds how i feel before i go.(no regrets) I would die for any of the boys in my crew and any one else I jump with.if there good enough to flick with there good enough to stick by weather in a tree or a hospital or even a morge. thank u for your time we all have diffrent opinions thats what makes this forum great

Unfortunately you are wrong to assume you can decide clearly whether a person is dead or not. I have some medical training as well, working for the Red Cross as a first aid responder etc.

At least in Europe we are _required_ to perform CPR as long as it takes (that can be hours and more) unless
1. there are absolutely clear signs of death (head detached from body, body in state of decomposition, rigor mortis, and some other) or
2. a doctor declares the person dead.

There is a reason why a doctor must do this (possibly with a brain scan etc.) and not me or you with some basic training (compared to a doctor).
If a body is heavily wrecked the blood pressure may be so low that you have no chance to ever feel it - especially in a high stress situation when you have seen the jumper going in. The pressure may still be enough though to let the person live on until proper medical help arrives.

Yes, in many cases even a really badly injured person will still have his / her conscience and can tell you what or where it is hurting. But in many cases as well the person will be without conscience, and then it is time for a doctor to decide whether the person is dead or not.

So even if a jumper is really badly injured, without conscience, losing blood etc. and one thinks "jumper is probably dead" one should really stay there and perform basic measures that one has hopefully learned in CPR training or wherever.

Sorry, do not take this bad, but with some probability you may remember what you learned a few years ago (but with some probability you will not), but even if you remember you might just lack the necessary routine to perform seemingly simple things like only feeling blood pressure.

It is one thing to have felt and checked vital signs in the quiet atmosphere during your course, and another to do the same things under high pressure when a real person might be dying. And with the experience lying back several years it will only get more difficult.

So, while I applaud everybody who has taken such courses I dare say it makes very much sense to get refresher trainings from time to time. I am doing this at least once a month, and I can feel the difference when the break was very long.

It is the same when you have been out of jumping for some time.


bsbd.

I didn't want to comment because I'm not a BASE jumper... but I was just thinking..

From the facts that we know, it appears that these guys were relatively inexperienced jumpers and didn't go through the proper channels of training (at least we know Scott didn't). Is it possible then, that they went on the jump, the worst happened - and they just panicked? These guys aren't known to the jumpers in the region in which they were jumping, maybe they were just a little misinformed about how to deal with such a situation.
Perhaps they just panicked and that's why they left him and made that call.. and now the consequences of their actions have mounted up that it is too late for them (in their perception) to act responsibly?

Condolences to the family..

well then, I guess I stand corrected.

I have been meaning to take some refresher courses, especially since I've gotten into BASE. I can't fathom the thought of being with a brother in need and not having the knowledge to help him (or her) until the real professionals arrive.

Unfortunately, none of the people that I usually jump with have any medical/first-aid background (that I know of). That fact makes me a bit uneasy, especially as I watch this current situation unfold.

In addition to discussing the ethics of the pact that we've all been talking about, maybe we should start thinking about how prepared we are if we encounter a similar situation ourselves?

Maybe Scott could have still been helped? Even if he couldn't, I'm sure that this possibility will haunt the jumpers who were with him for the rest of their lives, not to mention the family.

I dont mean to hijack the thread, Tom, so feel free to break this off into a new thread if people start running with it. (as if you need my permission or something )

It has been pointed out to me by two people who actually read the link I posted that Dead Mike was not dead. And indeed, I was working from my memory of the accounts at the time, not from Mike's account on his website, which clearly states that he was not dead.

It really does pay to have one's facts in hand before posting, so that one does not then have to make corrective posts such as this one.

That said, this morning I went googling for life after death, and it is clear that determining death is not so easy as it seems. My example was bad, but the premise is not. Although Mike did not cross the Great Divide, there are quite a few people who have been clinically dead but not brain dead who have come back and gone on to live long and one hopes, happy lives.

In most places, EMS cannot pronounce unless:

A. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and demonstrates postmortem rigidity and/or lividity.

B. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and demonstrates generalized decomposition.

C. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and has severe head trauma and/or torso wounds with exposure of brain matter or visceral contents. (An exception is made for a full-term or near-term pregnant woman, in which case, the hope is to save the baby.)

D. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and 100% full thickness total body burns with no hope for salvage.

E. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and demonstrates decapitation or complete severance through the trunk.

F. The EMS crew is presented with a DNR.

Checking vital signs is not enough.

rl

while cases like that are extremely rare, i guess i just have to say it:

<sigh>... your right and im wrong

....(but only slightly)

Hello bert_man,


Just a quick explanation: I think it is very cool for everybody who has got some basic training at all, the more the better. So, I am very glad to read you had training.

Sorry if my post was maybe a bit dry, I just wanted to raise awareness to everybody that especially in our sport where really bad injuries can happen we should always perform life preserving measures - even if we doubt the person is alive at all or will make it.

That is, unless there are absolutely clear signs like the ones RhondaLea just brought to us (thanks). Otherwise: No one is dead unless declared dead by a professional - usually a doctor.

And I perfectly realize that most people who have taken some basic training cannot go back regularly, but my gut feeling would be to say, maybe once or twice a year a refresher training would be very helful.


Best, Eduard.

NEVER..leave anyone behind

NEVER..give up

NEVER..quit trying

IF YOU IGNORE THE ABOVE RULES IN THE EVENT OF SOMEONES INJURYS OR ACCIDENT you HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE

come on think this through what if someone is still alive
NO ONE should be have to die alone.. period

..

If a group of jumpers make a pact, they should stick to it, if you are not prepared to do what that pact entails, do not agree to be part of it. I could never do what "mike" may have done, but I would never agree to a pact like that. If we put blame on "Mike" then we should put blame on the whole group that was part of this pact, for we have to assume that if the roles were reversed and "mike" died, similar events might follow.

B.A.S.E. jumpers, this is the perfect time to evaluate your own personal pacts you have and determine if you really would be able to stick to it.

Pact or not if they left someone injured to die as the video clip in the other thread says.Someone should go to jail.Let me repeat that SOMEONE NEEDS TO GO TO JAIL!

.

As a skydiver, you should be aware of the usual inaccuracies of media reporting.

There are very few facts right now, and we haven't even reached the stage where someone needs to be arrested, much less sent to jail.

Making a concerted effort to sort all this out is important. A discussion of the ethics of leaving is essential every now and again. But trial, conviction and imposition of sentence prior to knowing exactly what has happened in this particular case helps no one, most especially Scott.

rl

I COMPLETLEY agree with this statement. I hope and PRAY that that report is like many reports in this sport, and slanted or mis-leading. Until a body is found or "Mike" is found its so hard to decide how to feel.

They were interviewing one of his friends that spoke of his neck being broken and bones sticking out.That fucker has talked to someone.If this guy Mike can make two calls to the family he can damn sure tell them where to find the body.As someone else said,from a pay phone with a muffled voice.Lets get real people this should have come to an end already and there is NO excuse for it going on.The longer it takes the worst it is going to be and the longer the media is going to be involved.The guy in that news clip knows or he knows who does.


.

You forget that "Mike" has still not told anyone where the body is! Even after two phone calls. I can't believe this was part of the pact!!

Dear Scott's Mom,
my sincerest condolances for your loss. You are in our thoughts.

take care,
Chris

I guess you overlooked the word if in my post.There are so many ifs that my head is spinning.If there is a body,If he did die BASE jumping,what IF someone killed him and decided to hang it on the BASE community.As I said before if this guy can call the family twice he can put an end to this and tell them where the body is.Something just does not add up.

The people in the video are family and friends of Scott's girlfriend.

I am uncertain where they got the details they recounted on the broadcast, or if they are accurate in any way.

I'm so very saddened to read all this...

I have ground crewed on plenty of bandit jumps. I understand that there is a natural instinct for self preservation to flee. However, I have had injured people in my hands, and I don't give a shit what the consequences are I would never leave someone. I am also a former EMT, so my gut instinct is to help people.

I understand that there are pacts in place, but use some common sense please. If a man is down and and you want to save your ass - at least use that persons cell phone to call for help. It will only trace that person (not you), and could potentially save that person vs. leaving someone to die alone. So what if you give away a base location - I would hope that someones life is more important than that. That's just truly fucked up!

g

I always thought that the real ethics of base jumping was to conduct ourselves responsibly and promote a positve image of our sport to the rest of the world.

How are we supposed to do that if the world sees us as the type of people who leave our friends behind- and who dont assume to do the responsible or humane thing.

Im a base jumper- and i dont consider myself a criminal- as someone else once put it (cant remember who)- 'all im doing is borrowing a little altitude'

We are not criminals- we shouldnt act like criminals

I work- and i value my job as much as the next guy. I have a girl-who i intend to marry, and who i would like to grow old and healthy with. I base jump- and that is my decision. Hopefully i will always make the right decisions.

Personally, i dont make friends just to leave thier bodies out in the cold.


Reiner.

P.s- I'm not directing this at anyone. I just think that if we want to make people understand why we love base and why we jump. We cant give them something that they cant swallow. Most people out there can learn to understand that base jumpers are not actually committing any moral crime- but i dont think that most people can learn to agree with leaving a human beings body smashed on the ground below an antenna or building or wherever. I mean- dont the armed forces always say that they never leave a man behind dead or a live.

my 2c.

Gee. Guess what the press and public are gonna do. Thank goodness funks is getting everyone ready for it.

hopefully, they might check "The List" and realize this is NOT standard. (ah, wishful thinking...)

That's what I am talking about! I started this rollercoaster in the same way and continue to live "The Creed” every second. You know before the Rangers, SEALs, and everyone else coined that motto it was common damn sense!

The absolute worse thing that could ever happen after a death is not having closure to it. The living are the only thing that has a chance to provide it. "The I don't knows" are almost worse than the event itself.

If your own traumatic stress comes from your own near death experience, you've probably been thinking way to highly of yourself. If there is any confusion that you need to see a buddy through please let me know and I will let you know where you stand. Just because one dumbass has a horrible plan to "save" everyone else doesn't mean you have to follow through. Suck it up!

How many times do people have to get left for it to be too many?

First off:
Mike if you reads this,create an fake hotmail or yahoo account and mail the location of the body to Tom A,the polices or Scotts´s family.
Theres no need that people know who you are but pleace give the family rest in their sould by giving them the body of their son.

Next:
I have before said this but now i say it out public.
In case i die(make sure im dead,that nothing can be done),leave me behind,leaving my body and some id to prove who i am.Then contact my family,and the local police.Please make sure to protect your self againt anything(like charges etc etc),this is my will,if you stay back its YOUR choice but im al good if you leave my body behind.Both me and my family has agreed on this.Aslong as theyre contacted by "Allied" and hear it from my freinds that enjoyed my last moment whith me,rather than a police officer.
Personaly im quiete sure that i´ll stay by my freind that has just died but that is MY choice at that point(hope it dosnt happen).

So im pretty much dubbelmoral i guess,i would stay but ask my freinds to leave if they find so better.

If you havnt figured out stuff like the above then you probaly shouldnt jump illigal sites.
We all make our choices and has to live whith them,please make sure that your family knows what arrengment you and your freinds usaly jumps under..


well said as i know you.íll jump whith you again any time

how many times has it happened?

like this? one is too many

We're well over our quota then.

rl

Quite frankly this is beginning to be my take as well.

Regardless, my deepest condolences to Scott's family and friends. I sincerely hope you can soon have some closure and solace.

I think Reiner1 summed it up pretty well. We're not criminals and we shouldn't act like them. I hope this is just a terrible hoax and no one was killed. Either way, this is truly sad.

The maturity required to handle BASE is vastly underestimated in our community. We're all a bunch of yahoos when we get that onheading opening and fly safely to our landing, but how many of us are truly capable of handling the most dire of situations as men of honour?

For starters, put a number in your cellphone under the name ICE or BASE. Make sure this is the person you want to have contacted in case of a BASE emergency. For me, this is not my parents or even a direct family member. It is somebody who I respect and trust to establish a quick action plan, and know to be capable of managing communication channels properly.

I would agree...so lets all step up and try to help locate Scott so his family can get some closure...

I would think that with local knowlege of the area and local crews in the area that they should be able to narrow down some specific sites. I would also think that both calls made could be traced and be able to get a address. Someone else knows besides these two... I would think a helicopter would be able to cover the narrowed sites in a couple of hours. I would also assume that the people here on this forum would be willing to chip in and help with a helicopter rental fo a couple of hours. I would think for about $500.00 bucks...would cover it. Thats $20.00 for 25 people....not much but could end this for the better...

We could setup a paypal account to do this. I would be the first to chip in. I also was a former ranger ...and would never leave someone behind...even if i didnt like or know them..... It's just not right....

 Cheers buddy!-


Id just like to add that maybe 'the pact' is harmful to base. Sure, if you adhere to it, perhaps you might stay out of trouble, But surely it will come out that the person was base jumping and the anonymous phone caller knows more than he's let on-and abandoned the deceased.- That kind of 'publicity is not what Base-jumping as a sport needs.

Reiner

not true, if that persons phone actually had reception, then your phone would to, then the authorities could check the mobile phone servers and see what other phones were in range of that mobile phone tower at the exact time the call from the other phone was made,

so if this mike person had a mobile on him at the time and it had reception, then once they find where the body is they will look up the mobile phone records, and find him.

so if his phone had reception, then its in his best interest not to piss the authorities off by making them wait longer to find the body.

About that whole Ranger thing...this is something completely different. I have heard stories about a ranger getting shot (and killed for SURE) and because his buddies didn't want to leave him behind, they got shot as well. Now I think that it's completely stupid (sorry) and pointless to get yourself hurt over a dead body.

This is something completely different. The issue here is that neither of the two "buddies" have told anyone where the body is. And that's stupid and pointless as well.

Reminds me of the worst movie ever, Blackhawk Down.
However, that is getting killed for staying and we are talking about getting a misdemeanor offense in the worst situation, unless it the NPS and then maybe a felony. I still think that qualifies as a different arena than a military situation.

This whole scenario has led me to reevaluate my thoughts on the pact...... I hope it does for everyone.

I agree with Faber, I would stay but still ask others to leave me. In my personal situation, please leave my gear on, I pay a lot of money for life insurance(that covers parachuting) so my family will be ok if I mess up.

edited for error & getting my knickers in a bunch

One of the things that motivates people to step up to the plate and take that extra risk is the commitment of their friends to do just that...to stand by them even in death... it's more complex than "what's in it for me?"

Sorry to step on your security blanket..but yeah... cell phone providers can do this.

It's about who you are...It's about doing something nobel or saving your own ass....who says your ass is worth more...some people would jump in front of a bus to save someone they dont even know....they arent thinking about ...oh geee wizzz..i could get killed and my life is so important.....they do it because they feel compeled to do something to help someone other than themselves.... being a ranger is all about the guy next to you...knowing he would do anything to save your ass and do the right thing...
weather he liked you or not...

allot of people say they are your buddies until the shit hits the fan...then your true buddies will shine bright or fizzel like the true wimps they are....

This is just about doing the right thing....They didnt as far as we know so far....but until facts come out...we are just yaking away...

Personally...i would never make a pact about leaving someone ...i think its a wimp thing to do....I think when people start to realize there life is about as big as a nat on a dogs ass and in the big picture it really doesnt mean squat..that people will start helping instead of F$%%$ each other for ther own preservation...

just my two cents .... just my thoughts....

Ok. Fair enough. Then let this be known for future reference:

If you ever jump with me (or if I have the privilege to jump with you) you can go ahaid and leave my dead body behind. I PROBABLY won't leave you behind but I'm not sure. Please don't jump with me if you'd leave my body behind and wouldn't tell anyone where it is. Thx!

I was commenting on your post about Rangers, not BASE jumpers. Big differnce IMO.

don't get your knickers in a bunch.

i know some of the USA's telephone networks are outdated compared to countries that are smaller (easier to upgrade) and/or that installed their networks later. however telephone companies in this part of the world DO have this capability. it HAS been used to prove people were at the scene of a crime and to locate suspects that use "pay as you go" phones (normally don't require registration).

by checking which sides of which towers can see a phone the location can be pinpointed fairly easily. you may be leaving digital fingerprints at every tower you visit.

so it's not that unreasonable to assume that US companies have or soon will have such capability.

when, why and how this would or wouldn't be used is a whole other can of worms, but it IS possible in many countries. if some/all of your providers can't do this currently i would expect that it's on the "homeland security's" to do list.

edited to add:
aparently US companies can and have used cell phone triangulation, see links below for more info.

http://www.wired.com/...0,1282,52396,00.html
http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/...d7_gci753924,00.html
http://www.al911.org/...ulation_location.htm

It's on their "have (edit to add "already" )done" list

I apologize.


Are you referring to using a phone in a certain area or to phones that are simply on in a certain area? I find it hard to believe the tower keeps a log of all phones that have reception near another phone that is in use, as the initial poster stated.

If I'm wrong I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe.... and we are defintiely hijacking. If my use of bold letters is the cause of the uproar, I'm sorry. I'll go back and delete it.

doesnt matter much Becca , it was all a hoax by the kid.... I am so pissed about this and I hope he never jumps again...

Wow. That sounds like a serious cry for attention. Perhaps he really needs help after all. A different kind of help.

I am sure the base community will give him all the help he needs

no shit.

someone tell tom to tell this jackass, I hope i never meet him.

To all the skydivers and whuffos who've ventured over to this forum to complain about BASE jumpers leaving their dead, feel free to remove your foot from your mouth. It helps to wait until all the facts are in.

Many of us thought this was a hoax for several days now.

Everyone, please keep in mind that the real victims of that situation were the family, who genuinely believed their son was dead. They've got to be hurting right now, and a little consideration for that would be appreciated.

I still feel really bad for his mother. Think about how she feels.

My mom is in serious therapy right now cause my brother has done some crappy stuff.

OMG, I just can't freakin' believe this, something didn't seem right, but I didn't expect this.

i was refering to a phone just being on.

yes it is a lot of data, i'm not sure how long it is stored for, probably varies by country and company. i'd expect that companies will be required to keep this for a minimum period by the state.


don't be sorry for being wrong, be sorry for being a hypocrite by chastising someone for not checking their facts when you clearly didn't check yours. a quick google shows that this is possible and has been done in the US. i don't think that the bold letters were the big problem. no point in editing your original post now.

Yet when those that posted that things were fishy they got attacked for doubting the story....

Seriously. This is so far out of my scope of understanding. All I can come up with is that he is seriously suicidal and was taking a test run.

now young dude let this olg grunt expand your mind

RANGER CODE
never ever leave someone behind..you ask why

think if you were hurt,lost,wounded would you want to be left behind? I think not
special operators go where there is a very real possibility of this occuring and it does help to know that your battle buds. will not leave you behind

this started due to all the MIA's

in conbat you becone closer to your buddies than anyone else in your life ever.

sorry if i sound stuffy but you cannot understand how important that code is .

..

First: My condolanses (spelling) to the family. No one should ever have to go through such an ordeal...especially from their own flesh and blood.

Second: I wanted to express a true "THANKS" to the complete jumping (sky/base) family out there. It's always refreshing to see so many people offering help to someone they never met but bonded by an activity shared.

Finally: Is the person who originally posted (USMC 1775) even really a marine? If so, I'm sure some of our USMC brothers can find out and put some heat on his ass for this little stunt.

Sorry for hijacking...

Yeah, ya jnow getting your crank yanked isn't any fun. I can certainly understand why everyone is angry, but try to bear in mind that the full story hasn't been told. I've seen this story run the gamut of emotions, from everyone being sad to a lot of people wanting to kick Scott's ass.

I'd like to think we're all a little more articulate than that. Understand people go through things, we don't understand them. Let this family heal. Let's hear Scott's explanation, if he so desires to offer, he certainly doesn't owe us one.

I will give Tom and the DZ.COM staff props for their tireless efforts throughout this entire ordeal. It most certainly was a Roller Coaster Ride Of Emotions.

Regardsless of who feels what, The young man is alive and has time to fix whatever's wrong if anything, who knows maybe someone played a bullshit trick on him? Let time do it's thing here, we've all been patient so far.

Let the cops and the family and the doctors figure it out. That's their job.

I'm sure we'll get updated with facts once the emotions subside and there is accurate information to relay.

In the meantime, reflect on folks like you all in the BASE community and how you all came together and worked this thing. I'd be interested in seeing the man-hours devoted by BASE jumpers and other posters here to help figure this out.

TomA and LouDiamond, and those of you who were involved but not publicized - you cats are seriously owed some fucking beer for dropping everything abd going on a limb for someone you didn't even know or recognize. And Tom's a new daddy, too.

To paraphrase Tom, "For the record, in this single incident, I think that you all showed more character than I'm likely to have in my entire life."

edited to add: It's easy for a lawyer to make that character claim. I'm sure none of you would doubt the lack of character my shyster ass has...

I'm just sorry for the family and friends. I'm glad that Scott's ok, hoax or not.

T&F, DCBM. It's not 93 today and lets be happy about that.

now young dude let this olg grunt expand your mind

RANGER CODE
never ever leave someone behind..you ask why

think if you were hurt,lost,wounded would you want to be left behind? I think not
special operators go where there is a very real possibility of this occuring and it does help to know that your battle buds. will not leave you behind

this started due to all the MIA's

in conbat you becone closer to your buddies than anyone else in your life ever.

sorry if i sound stuffy but you cannot understand how important that code is .

..
Well put brother!!!!

Billy

No. The people who attacked Scott's mother's post got told unequivocally that she is, in fact, his mother.

She didn't know anything about this, and there was no reason to focus on her.

Edited to add: I don't think Matthew Park (usmc1775) had anything to do with it either, except as someone who is a friend of the family and was trying to help, so perhaps we can lay off the implied threats.

rl

Notwithstanding that the whole thing was a hoax (I'm going to leave my personal feelings on that aside) this whole fiasco DID prompt some very good discussion on a very serious issue that I think many jumpers haven't really thought about or discussed.

It's a discussion that's been a long time coming and I'm personally glad we had it.

Seriously, anybody who didn't already have answers to the questions in this thread needs to seriously reconsider his participation in this sport. If you don't have a plan B through Z when you approach an object, legal or not, you go home, start your Playstation 2, and go make some more jumps in Grand Theft Auto.

No directed to you Zennie; I know you have your shit together. Just an observation that this really ought to be a non-issue.

I read something yesterday that made me think something was fishy here but I wasn't about to say anything not knowing exactly what was what. But I'm glad that this turned out to be NOT true and something good which can come from this HOAX is that BASE jumpers start communicating with each other and start supporting each other in times of need. No object should ever be more sacred than the life of a fellow jumper. I don't do a lot of illegal jumps (call me anything you want, it doesn't matter) but if/when I find myself in a similar situation, I'd rather deal with the law and some trespassing issues than deal with the guilt of abandoning a jumper in need.

I still have no reason to believe that his mother made that post.I stand by my statements and believe that they should be put back where they were.What was that phrase you used?Oh yes,Put a lid on it.



.

Lame?

Say you have a street with buildings to the left and right. There's snipers in some of the buildings. Say I get shot in the middle of the street with no cover and you, uninjured, have cover.

1. If I was injured, I would want for you to come and help me. Even if it meant risking your life. I would do the same for you.

2. If I looked dead but it's not quite sure, I would want for you to come and help me. Even if it meant risking your life. I would do the same for you.

3. If I was DEAD for sure. As in head blown off or whatmayyou. I would NOT want for you to risk your life over what USED to be me. If you were dead for sure, I wouldn't risk my life to retreive your body either. Frankly I would resent the fact that someone got his ass shot just because they didn't want to leave my dead body behind.

I hope it is clear now how I feel about it.

I have an email from his mother that is essentially the same in form and content as her post. I have verified that the sender is Theresa Denham.

You can hold to your mistaken belief as long as you wish. But you're still wrong.

rl

Then how would you account for myself and Tom corresponding with her before this was public, to include phone conversations, which subsequently led to the Law becoming involved with the mother and all of this unfolding?

Believe what you want, thats your right but, it does not mean you are right.

Fine I'm wrong.Can we talk about Scott getting the help he needs while he sits in jail.Because that is what needs to happen now.Or do you have a problem with that oppinion also?


.

What does that have to do with this forum?

rl

I do,

sometimes the help somone needs is an ass kickin. is he going to get that in jail?

seriously, he needs to get help, or somone needs to help him.

YES!!! That's it rl, thanks!

Just felt like showing you this:
http://www.fcc.gov/911/enhanced/

There is a lot more to this topic and it was a hot debate for some time...until 9/11 happened. Then it was pushed thru rather quick. Just a tangent I wanted to clear up. Back to the drama.....

About as much as any of the other crap in here today.Why should it change now.

Yes. USMC 1775 really is a marine. He was not a perpetrator of this hoax. He was a victim. He is a friend of the family who was contacted by Scott's mother, because he was relatively local. He gave up a significant amount of his personal time and energy trying to locate Scott.

I believe he acted in good faith, and honorably.

 

You're out of line. I can verify with 100% authority that post was made by his mother.

I recommend you back off, or I will put a lid on it for you.

Consider this your warning.

Not picking on you woodpecker.

How is this post any different for the one that I made?Same tone,same question,what is the difference?


.

Apparently you missed this. I posted it this morning:

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=2042688#2042688

It has been pointed out to me by two people who actually read the link I posted that Dead Mike was not dead. And indeed, I was working from my memory of the accounts at the time, not from Mike's account on his website, which clearly states that he was not dead.

There's more to the post. But it's not relevant to your post.

rl

Woodpecker asked his question and/or had a misunderstanding about who was a perpetrator and who a victim of the hoax once. You continue to push a point after it's been explained to you, and your first post was removed from the forum.

That's the difference.

It's also the reason that you won't be posting here for the next 14 days.

Oh snap!

Our brother is not dead! Our brother needs his ass kicked, but he is still one of the living.
The pain that his family, friends and searchers feel is much lighter than was feared. So this is a happy ending!!

On the base code thing, it is my experience that criminal pacts are macho, adolescent bullshit.
On a jump in New Orleans many years back; a friend and a POS were jumping one of the buildings. My friend jumped first, opened good and flew toward Canal St. As he crossed Canal the wind from the river blew him into a building about at about 30' and he hit the opposite building at the street.
The POS booked! leaving my friend to rely on providence. A car full of party animals found him and took him took him to a suburban hospital. All is fine today but that POS is still active in B.A.S.E.
So much for the code.

----------------------

His first post with the "simper fi" thing in his sig line made me wonder too, Tom.

I don't want to doubt him, but that really was a reason to wonder about the post in general. How many marines would really make that kind of mistake?

You are correct. That'll learn me to not read the thread thoroughly!

(Original post deleted).

Bingo. His mother is going to kill him. His friends are going to kill him. But yes, he's alive, and after they kill him they'll be able to hug him, and his mother can stroke his cheek.

As far as any ass-kicking, let's not all promise to be involved -- his parents get to be first in that line.

Wendy W.

Yeah but her boyfriend split and left the other guy there to take the heat, kudos to him for staying....

Everyone who posted here about this whole deal is a drama queen and you almost deserve to be fooled. You all love gossiping and to be opinionating. If you don’t know what the truth is about something just shut up and go on with your own life, especially when you have no business or can’t do anything about it.

Get a life,
Fools

Dear God! WTF! Anyone who would willingly put their family, friends and community through something like this needs some serious psychological help!

We've had a bad 18 months for both skydiving and BASE here in OZ and I find faking your own death (and stressing everyone out like this) so unfunny it made me feel physically sick to my stomach.

For once, I am utterly dumbfounded and speechless.

stop posting and go jump then, drama queen.

Get a life, foo!

Yes this is fact the phones that come into reception and out of reception are all saved on a server and no with modern tech it isnt a big deal to even save it all for ever.
each time is just a simple row in a database table, a table that probably only contains 3 columns.
a billion records would be a couple of gb's max
now look at gmail, every user has 2.7gb of space and there is over 10million users.

if you plan on going and doing ilegal activity then turn your mobile off before you even leave your house, then if for some reason you need to make a call where you don't care about getting caught then turn your phone on at the scene

this isnt any big brother scare tactics from the civil libertariens (spelling), this method has been used to catch people in australia
the police have had no idea of who a suspect was so they simply looked up the phone server records to see what mobile phones were in the area on that night,
you don't need to make a call for it to simply record what numbers are logged into a server

Yes. USMC 1775 really is a marine. He was not a perpetrator of this hoax. He was a victim. He is a friend of the family who was contacted by Scott's mother, because he was relatively local. He gave up a significant amount of his personal time and energy trying to locate Scott.

I believe he acted in good faith, and honorably.
Thanks for clearing that up for me Tom. Much appreciated.

Billy

My opinion for what it is worth.

Unless you are 110% certain that the person is deceased, you have no business leaving the scene or trying your hardest to get assistance.

Family MUST be informed (with an exception I'll mention below), and details given to allow recovery and psychological closure. This task should be performed asap and by a person who has psychological strength and empathy to complete the task in a humane way. Don't leave this task to the weak!!! It may not be completed.

Regarding the authorities and penalties, this is a choice made by individuals in agreement with each other. Jumping buddies may have opposing views but as long as each are willing to act out the wishes of their buddy, then it is OK. If your jump buddy will not do what you want, find another.

A pact is an agreement made between individuals and/or groups. Just because you do not like a pact, it does not necessarily make it right to act against it. There are situations/reasons where people do not want any involvment with their family (due to things like major conflict, abandonment, abuse, etc). Does another person have the right to challenge that???? It is a tough question.

But for 99% of people, I believe the family should be informed.


The punishment in many cases DOES NOT FIT THE CRIME. In fact, crime (r.e. BASE jumping) is a perception created by a minority of powerhungry folk who should be spending their time chasing terrorists, rapists, and murderers. Not people unfortunate enough to be at the scene of an accident that they, in general, had no affect over.

I know of a scenario where a fatality occured, rescuers would not commence a rescue until the jumpers admitted to the police to being accomplices (hence accessories to manslaughter according to local law), and the jumpers then initiated their own S&R and were criticised for it.

I know of an example where a jumper was bashed with a rifle butt because he would not tell the local authorities where his colleague was or who he is. The same group was also maltreated in a jail cell.

I know of jumpers who have been charged nearly $10000 for two heli rescues. These operations were run so inefficiently that it makes me cringe. The jumper was overcharged for incompetance. Yet at the same time, other people were rescued for greater acts of stupidiyt but were not charged at all - discrimination against BASE jumpers!!!!!

What do these scenario's mean? How do they affect the psychology of a jumper? They get scared. They are obviously being victimised and discriminated against, whether you want to recognise this or not - careers/finances/relationships/freedom are threatened. You can't travel to a lot of countries with any sort of criminal charge. You can't work in certain jobs. You could end up losing your own family and loved ones...

This is a window into the psychology and thinking that may lie behind "The Pact".


The penalty is greater for abandonment than for staying in this scenario. If it is proven that you were involved in grossly negligent acts, then there would be a harsher penalty. The problem for BASE jumpers in many areas is that BASE itself is considered a careless/negligent activity. Unless you are blatantly breaking laws, being with someone who is riding a bike is not.


- - - - - - -

If I go in and die. Take my rig, kick some dirt on me, learn from my stuff up, tell my family and/or authorities where I am, party on with the $$$ left in my wallet, and go and enjoy the remainder of your life. My soul/etc has gone to the "other world". I have no need for a corpse!!!!! I expect you to do this and will come back to haunt you (in jail) if you hang around for nothing.

p.s. make sure that I have died before acting out my wishes.

That sums it pretty well Jason. If you don't base jump, this really is not something you need to worry about, and those who do probably really don't care about your armchair quarterback opinion on the subject.

FWIIW, I had a feeling this was a hoax a couple days ago. It just didn't add up. Gut feelings are often right.

Cya.

AFTER ACTION REPORT

#1 many good folks upon hearing tried to do what was helpfull
#2 wild speculation once again comes back to bite you on the ass
#3 jumpers that were not friends with the family or missing jumper steped up to the plate with no thought of reward
#4 this jumping BASE .skydiveing comunity is bashed enough ,mis quoted by the press
but reality shows that we still stick together
#5 offers of help,searching,prayers and hope were freely given
#6 possibly a jumper may want to rething a buddy that states he will run away if somethind bad occures.
#7 lets not beat each outher up over being fooled as we get fooled all the time anyway,just watch TV or listen to a politician
BAD THINGS HAPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE ALL THE TIME
lets give a break and move on

yes there was drama with this incident but what if NO ONE SAID OR DID ANYTHING which would be worse

this young man did something stupid and used poor judgement but who here is not guilty of that
he needs help the family needs help and we need to forgive each outher for our sometimes hastey words

..

What's the deal with americans and jail? Is jail the common solution to all bad that's going on?
"The guy is dead. Somebody needs to go to jail!"
"The guy is NOT dead. Somebody needs to go to jail!"

Please tell me this is not the general opinion in USA, please tell me it's only this CSpenceFLY dude..... and maybe a few rednecks.

/Micke N
Team Bautasten

Yes, somebody went to jail, so we're all happy again.

edit: Are we supposed to be happy over all the time and money that was wasted especially everybody that went out frantically searching sites that when we hear "oh, just kidding" we just say "good one, that was really funny" ???

unfortunately, the US is a place where somebody always has to be punished. if something bad happens, even a complete accident, someone has to pay. we are not happy unless every bad event is vindicated by jail time or a huge lawsuit.

It's the truth. "BASE jumping is illegal" Until that very common misconception goes away, people will continue to call the police whenever they see a jump. If you land in the street, and a police officer sees you, he will assume that you need to be arrested.

Once in TF, I even had a hard time convincing a tourist that we were perfectly legally jumping off the bridge. I talked to him for a couple minutes.

Tourist: "This is illegal right?"

Me: "Actually, this is one of the few places that we can jump, totally legally."

Tourist: "So you're going to go out there and jump right now?"

Me: "Yes, and this is actually the perfect place to watch from. If you want, you can walk out to the middle of the bridge and watch us from there."

Tourist: "Do the cops know you're doing this?"

Me: "Yes, we call them every morning and let them know that there will be BASE jumpers out here."

Tourist: "Well, I'm going to call and ask them for myself."

Me: "That's okay. I'm going to go jump now. Have a good day, Sir." (walking away thinking... "What the...?")

I was under the impression that BASE was not the illigal part, it was the tresspassing or illigal air delivery. Am I wrong on this?

This thread was about a BASE jumper who was not a BASE jumper, about a pact that did not exist amoung him and his friends. To be honest I learned only that it is easy to be fooled. I have talked with several BASE and all of them have told me that yes some agree to leave the body of someone who pounds in but there it is understood that the others will inform those who can retrieve the body and make arrangements. So to me thats perfectly resonable if the BASE groups make those pacts. Just as in skydiving if I pound in I prefer to be moved out of the way so people can continue jumping for the rest of the day.

I feel bad that so many in the area worked hard to locate this jumper. I know if I were in their positions I would have done the same. I think those who were closest to it are dealing with a lot of emotions that are conflicting.

Some have stated that this thread was used to speculate, and I disagree, often thats the case in the incidents thread. However the fake BASE jumpers family themselves came on here seeking help. There was no speculation. Everyone was pointed to news casts, and many even spoke with the family on the phone.

Everyone, please keep in mind that the real victims of that situation were the family, who genuinely believed their son was dead. They've got to be hurting right now, and a little consideration for that would be appreciated.
----------------------------------------------------------
Just venting a bit here. . . .

Okay considered. I feel bad for the family but certainly not for the piece of shit that spawned this whole thing (Yeah I know we're all thinking that). I know I'm not only one to think this but I'll post it anyway; the only positive I can see from this whole situation is that it showed how much the BASE community cares about their fellow jumper. It certainly makes me feel good to know that even though most you don't know me at all, you would still go to such great efforts to lend a helping hand should something bad happen to me.

But to Scott and/or his buddies who started this. . . . my suggestion is to move far away, change your name, whatever. Personally I hope the BASE community just shuns you completely and that I never have to hear your name again. But I heard a story last night about a very high profile BASE jumper (think MTV) known for dayblazing objects who got what was coming to him. So good luck and I wouldn't want to be you right now.

J.P.

well said.

I'm very proud to be a BASE jumper, but not strictly for the jumping. I have seen jumpers risk arrest to aid an injured jumper. A JUMPER THEY DID NOT KNOW.

I admire the rescue stories from MOAB.

those who stuck with Tom M deserve immense respect.

true, some have reasons to leave. I understand.

but I as I watched this incident unfold, there was NO shortage of assistance, of caring. to all who did what they could to assist, you're the reason I'm proud to be a part of this group called BASE jumpers.

The fact that its a bicker-fest more times than not perhaps?

>(Yeah I know we're all thinking that)

In no way, shape, or form do you speak for me.

Scott, when you read this, I'm glad you are okay. I entertained similar thoughts at your age. Hopefully in a couple years you and your Mom will be able to laugh about this, but when you have your own kids you'll better understand why people got pissed off.

Everyone who posted here about this whole deal is a drama queen and you almost deserve to be fooled. You all love gossiping and to be opinionating. If you don’t know what the truth is about something just shut up and go on with your own life, especially when you have no business or can’t do anything about it.

Get a life,
Fools
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hey if you don't like the "opinionating" and discussion on here, you know where the on/off switch is bro. Use it.

J.P.

Pot...kettle...something witty.

Im happy that this were a hoax(thanks Jaap for translating that)

I think that as soon as we has lost the bad feelings for Scoot about this it pretty much helped people here on this board to realice that they need a plan in case things goes wrong.

I think that we all learned somthing.

As i see it Scoot has made a scream for help,i hope he gets that help.
My feelings still go out to his nearest family and freinds that has been through a hard part of their lifes..

http://cbs2.com/...258@kcbs.dayport.com

I'm pretty impressed with the media. The news anchor mentions base jumping being illegal and the reporter on site corrects her stating that base jumping is not illegal, only when trespassing. Wow.

I just want to point out to everyone that it is possible Scott had nothing to do with this. According to the "always spot on" media:

"Scott had nothing to do with this hoax at all. He didn't even know about it," Rebecca Kirk told ABC7 Eyewitness News.

http://abclocal.go.com/...local&id=3840687 second to last paragraph.

So let's not burn him at the stake just yet people.



Oh hell, am I posting in the BASE forum again? Sorry!

. . . .That's very true Girlfalldown.

Cheers,

J.P.

ya, lets save that for the dublin boogie.

your welcome spence.

Hey 428.....That is the best post ever ! and it should be made a sticky at the top most threads,,,,

so let me get a few thigs straight..

1- you are a cop
2- if you stumbled across an illegal base jump, you would be stoked?
3-and the jumper gets to leave scot-free?

because that is fucking sweet...

Scott has been located and is alive and well- he had left teh area for a vacation, and a "friend" of his took it upon himself to tell us that he had died in a base jumping accident. Scott called us to let us know he arrived where he was going, while we were with the detectives. His

The infomation that was shared with us turns out to have been a very cruel prank. Whoever did this needs serious mental health.

Scotts father and I , are overwhelmed by the love and support of the aviation BASE and skydiving communities. All of you have been helpful and supportive.
Thank you for your offer of help and thank you to those who took time to help us. We're grateful that this information is not true; we're furious at whoever thought this would be funny.

It took him a week to get there and he had his phone turned off the entire time?

As if the Agnos thing wasn't enough publicity for the local jumpers...

Scott was not aware what was going on from what we can tell. He is pissed as well. Please see my earlie post. Please know that since we would not talk to the news, a lot of mis information was spread. Some stories were very inaccurate.

It is a hoax, but I dont think Scott is involved. Please see my other post about what happened. This is all we know, and we hope Mike gets the help, whoever mike is.

Ok, something does add up here to me.

-Where was he going that it took 3 days to get there?

-Why was his phone off the entire time?

-Who goes on vacation without informing their family, girlfriend or EMPLOYER that they will be gone?

-Why did he tell his girlfriend that he was just going for a jump?

-Why did he not call her as he said he would?

Not to be a cynical ***, but it sounds like he was involved, but the prank/stunt got a little out of hand and he decided to cover his ***. I apologize if I am wrong and if I am just stirring the pot, but it just seem weird to me.

My opinion means very little, all that matters is you have your son back. I am curious how he could be so out of touch with the man hunt. There are many unanswered questions, like the one below your re-cap however at this point its a he said situation. Regardless you have your son back. I from information I have gathered, do not believe he did not help this situation come about. Once again my thoughts do not matter.

Id be curious to know where he has been for a week, why he didnt call his GF after his jump like she said he always does, why he did not answer his cell for a week, use a cc for a week, or how come not even you or your family or his girlfriend knew he was planning a trip to escape for a week. Regardless my opinion does not matter. I am glad you have your son back

I'm not going to get involved in the whole new round of speculation over who was involved in the prank and who wasn't other than to say to those who ask "who has their phone off for days on end?".... I do it all the time, just ask my friends.

Sometimes people just want some quiet time to themselves with no interruptions. I know I do, so it doesn't really surprise me if someone else would either.

But to Scottsmom I just want to say that I am really impressed by the poise, graciousness and understanding that you displayed during a time when most people would not be able to string two words together coherently. I've never met you, but I can tell you're a very thoughtful, compassionate, classy person. You were a victim of this more than anyone else here and I'm glad that the story has a (mostly) happy ending.

Seconded wholeheartedly.

rl

in my country if you head off into the mountains our far out west you will lose phone reception fuly, so even if your phone is turned on, it is as if it is turned off,
maybe some places in the US are the same

I leave my phone off for days on end on occasion (especially on a vacation), and sometimes the battery shorts out and dies prematurely (so on a bus trip i'd be out of luck).

Also, I've gone on vacations without telling my family... I'm a grown adult, I don't need to ask permission.

Many vacations could take 3 days to get there, especially if you want to be cost-effient and take a bus.

From what I understand, he called his g/f a day or so before the intended jump... it wasnt really a true VGC situation, just a normal conversation where he probably happened to mention that he would make a jump for his birthday.

I'm not going to say either way whether or not I think scott was involved, especially after sitting here now watching so many people trying to pull their feet out of their mouths... I just wanted to say that many of the questions that were brought up do have possible explanations.

The girlfriend stated in her news bit, that she asked him to call her back after the jump so she knew he was okay, he said he would.... he didnt. And if it was a hoax from a "friend" its somewhat assumed he informed at least one person that he was going on this "vacation" and this friend used it to play a prank? Yet Scott did not tell anyone else?

I still think he had knowledge of it, and did not realize what people would go through trying to find him.

As a matter of fact, I was just in Tahoe last weekend and my phone has no service at all. I didn't use my phone for almost 3 full days.

Nextel has no phone service in Montana like a lot of other cell services.

When I drive to Twin Falls, Idaho from Northern California, I lose cell service from just outside Reno all the way til I get into Twin Falls. The same thing happens when I go to Red Rock City.

I know everyone wants to know what happened but can't we just give them all a little time to absorb all that's happened? Whether we were directly involved or not, it's his family and friends that need to figure this out, not us.

Thanks for listening.

Sniff Sniff sniff, whats that I can smell, smells like a aussie road on a hot summers day..... is someone boiling tar?

hey what are you going to do with that bag of feathers?

nothing

I know of a few others that need a good tar and feathering more.

Cou;d be he was Mike too....Huh? Thinking out loud. I doubt we'll ever know the full story, and it's none of our business either. The only thing "missing persons" forget is the tremendous effort - emmotional strain their actions cause others. This is not the first case where someone just decided to take off for a while. Elvis did it!

So did Jim Morrison.

Speaking of which, it is now revealed that Jim Morrison is currently a cowboy living on a ranch in Oregon.

Scott had broken up with his girlfriend earlier that week. She was trying to get back together from what I understand talking to Scott. He is not interested and was tired by her pressure. Hence the 'vacation'.

Much 'mis information is out there, and I sincerely hope we all move forward and that Mike whoever is can resolve the problems he has.

Again, I can not express how thankful we are to the jumping community and the skydiving community. We have grown to really love you more than before though this experience and your love towards us.

Thank you

I can't believe everyone is threatening violence towards this guy. When all Spence was do was asking a legitimate question!!

You do not owe us an explanation, but I do appreciate the time you are taking to shed light on the situation. Regardless I am glad that it is not what at first it appeared, and what it appeared to be was a fatality. It wasnt so that is what really matters.

makes you wonder if it was the girlfreind that started this...

yaaaaa... more drama.

I was really trying not to speculate about her interview with pefect makeup and no bags under her eyes. I would not have been able to do an interview without sunglasses. But that's just me.

p.s. Can we call him "Dead Scott" now?

http://archives.cnn.com/...10/03/joke.funniest/

Two hunters are out in the woods when one of them collapses. He doesn't seem to be breathing and his eyes are glazed. The other guy takes out his phone and calls the emergency services.

He gasps: "My friend is dead! What can I do?" The operator says: "Calm down, I can help. First, let's make sure he's dead." There is a silence, then a gunshot is heard. Back on the phone, the guy says: "OK, now what?"

Just for you, Tom.

Not quite yet I don't think. Nothing against Scott but "Dead Steve" and "Dead Mike" got their names through very colorful circumstances.

And of course Dead Steve is ... welll ... dead... and Dead Mike is still around.

Good God and how could I forget Dead Jaap!!!! i was one to witness Dead Jaap and whike it's not one I recommend on anyone... we still have Dead Jaap!

Or maybe she was really crazy, so he faked his own death to get away. But then it backfired because she turned it into a media circus!
Anyone watch My Name is Earl?

I was going to say, "What about Dead Jaap!?!?!"

Okay. How about "Red Scott". He's got to be pretty embarrassed and/or angry right now.

As I introduced myself in a previous post, I am a personal friend of the Kirk family.

After witnessing what the Kirk family has gone through in the past week over this fiasco, I am disgusted by those of you who would even consider turning this into something his girlfriend orchestrated.

The Kirk family was in constant contact with Scott's family throughout this entire ordeal. They went to bat for Scott and his family, until his family could arrive in SoCal.

Shame on all of you.

9

We are a pathetic bunch, aren't we? I'm sorry for all the stress you guys have been through these last few days and happy to hear he's really ok. Try to ignore the bashing on here. BASE jumpers tend to be more tempermental (or maybe just mental) than most and seem to love drama drama drama.

I saw video of Scott's GF crying on tv begging for help finding him. So I'm not sure what everyone else is talking about.

Thanks for posting though.

Hi this is Scott's girlfriend. i have to post under this name because i do not have an account for myself. I'm deeply offended hurt by all these comments being made. From the beginning of all this, from the time his hysterical mom called my mom to say he was dead, to the time we found out he was alive, all i tried to do was help his grieving mother and find his body so we could get the closure we wanted and needed. The information being posted on here is inaccurate and i think needs to be clarified. i had broken up with him the week before and on monday we had talked about working things out. i was supposed to go see him tuesday for his birthday, but i was not able to and we got in an argument and he left, but he only told me he was going basejumping. He never said anything about going on vacation or anything like that. Scott has contacted me and we have talked and he has also talked to my mother. He told us he had left because he was angry and hurt and just wanted to get away. Can we all be grateful and praise god that he is alive and well? i don't know why people feel it's necessary to start pointing the finger at anyone other than who is at fault for the whole "hoax", this mike guy. these past three days were the hardest, most painful days i've ever had to go through. and please don't judge until you've had to go through something even close to the same thing. just remember, scott's alive and that is what we all need to be thankful for. i know i am.

thanks,
Bre

I think I know how you feel, but unfortuntly this message board is on the internet, and the very nature of the internet forum is for some people to be very abrasive abd hurtful behind an anon login name, and say things they simply wouldnt have the balls to say to anyones face in real life.

From very serious issues like this one, to the simplest irrelevant issues, there will always be a small group of people that try to turn it into a fight.

Please dont take any of these peoples posts to heart, although thats easier said than done, i know.
This small minority does not represent the thoughts of 99.9% of the skydiving or base jumping community in my experience. As you have seen, people for the most part pulled together to find him with certain people going way above and beyond the call of duty without a seconds hesitation.

I know what its like to lose someone very close to you under horrible circumstances, and Im very glad for you that he is still here, whatever your futures are.

Blue skies.
Nick.

I just can't get over something.

If Scott did not tell anyone that he was leaving for a few days (friends, family, room-mate, etc.), how did "mike" know that he would be gone in order to pull this hoax?

And if he was the only person that Scott told about leaving, shouldn't it be pretty easy to figure out who "Mike" is?

I don't know, I guess I am obsessing over something that is none of my business. Sorry.

and how they knew that "Mike" was from the gulf coast. Sorry, but in making a call like that, it seems to be an odd bit of info to leave.

It just doesnt add up. fishy....

and gossipy... welcome to the internet. (but at least i'm honest about it. :) )



And of course everyone BUT the great houdini himself (and "Mike" )has piped up, which doesnt leave us with a confident feeling. Not that he is required to make a statement to us, but still...

It doesn't add up because you do not have all of the facts. You are only privy to certain pieces of the puzzle, and therefore, you cannot connect the dots. That is perfectly understandable.

The answers are quite simple actually, but I leave it to the parties directly involved to put their personal lives out there for all to evaluate, if that is their desire. It is not my place to do so.

Thanks to those of you in this community who have offered your help and support.

9

can we please just delete this whole fucking thread? please? or move it to the bonfire or something... i can count on one hand the actual number of active base jumpers involved at this point... scotts personal life, drama between his girlfriend and family and such is really none of anyones buisness, so please... just stfu and go somewhere else... all of you.

i think tree and jason said it best...

im off to do some jumping.. in real life... off of real stuff...

And there is no need to connect the dots in this forum, because it was only a base issue when it was believed that Scott had been left dead/dying after a base jump.

There was no base jump, no one died, there was no body left behind, and it has nothing to do with base.

This thread is about leaving a jumper behind, not about who did what to whom, who knew what when, and whether the identities of some of the participants are genuine or otherwise.

So why do we continue to discuss it in this forum?

rl

good point.
'Cause we're drama queens?

I was just emailed and asked to review the blog by one of the jumpers.

I do not know who nineyears is.

At this point, I am the family spokesperson. I do not think the drama on here is appropriate and if you have further questions, please contact me directly or contact Tom.

Some people have been contacted by another party, that there was an email. While there was an email early on, it was established by Tom and authortiies, that the email was inaccurate and probably a hoax. It was also established that "Mike" is probably not a jumper.

The GF family and CBS2 news were told by myself and Tom not to disclose any of that information because it was probably not a true email. I can not control what others say, and I am truly sorry that I felt I could send a copy to someone who promised to keep it quiet and chose not to. That was my fault and I have been trying to clear that up, besides deal with my own emotions through this whole thing.

Please conctact me privately if you wish to keep in touch, I hope that all can respect Toms board and choose not to continue this drama.

At this point any further investigation on that email will not involve us (my family ) or anyone in the jumping community.

I think we are done with this discussion.

There are many issues here that lie between Scott and Bre, and between them both and their families and friends.

Those issues, discussion of them, and their resolutions are not related to jumping, and not appropriate for discussion in this forum.

It's time to move on, folks. If you want to discuss, in general terms, issues related to injured jumpers or BASE accidents, feel free to start another thread.

If you want to continue this discussion, you're going to have to do it privately.