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This post was inspired by Yuri's post about his cliffstrike. Yuri did a great job staying alive and in no way should this post be taken as an insult to his skills. The fact he lived through a cliffstrike makes him ten times the BASE jumper that I am.

Anyway, I'm wondering how many people actually know that stowing a 48 inch pilotchute is not recommended. It increases the chance of a hard pull compared to smaller pilotchutes, it increases the chances of a pilotchute hesitation, and strictly speaking if the jump requires a 48 inch pilotchute it's a short delay and you might as well go handheld anyway.

If you really want to go stowed, use a smaller pilotchute. If the 48 is all you have, go handheld instead. I don't go stowed unless I jump a 42. 46 and above means handheld.

Anyway, this post is not about discussing this particular matter. It's actually to point out an observation I had which is that I never learned this fact during my FJCs. I've taken two different FJCs, and I think it's a fair assumption that this kind of detailed information is not always what instructors have time for in three days.

As such, it brought out the need for mentors, jumping with other experienced jumpers, or at least being in regular contact with them to discuss your jump plan.

Mmmm, I wonder if this contradicts some opinions I expressed a few days back about the need for mentors. Oh well, at the very least I guess people should hang out with experienced jumpers.

Going at it alone is great, but there's a ton of little facts -like this one about large pilotchutes- that you won't pick up unless you start hanging out with experienced jumpers.

Anyway, just curious what the poll will say. Maybe I'm wrong and everybody learned this during their FJC.

Cheers,

Jaap

I learned this lesson when I was just shy of 100 BASE jumps. I experienced a PC hesitation with a 46" stowed PC from a cliff that was about 300'. It was fairly exciting.

Afterward, I had the good fortune to talk with one of America's most knowledgeable BASE experts (Todd Shoebotham from Apex--thanks Todd!) about my experience, and learned a lot.

Hmmm. Maybe I'll add a Stowed/Handheld recommendation line to my delay-altitude chart, and a note about stowed hesitations.

Note (this one may evoke some spirited discussion) that I am of the opinion that folding a mushroom (of any type) with a big PC and hand holding it for a short delay creates virtually identical hesitation issues as stowing the mushroom. For this reason I think the "handheld mushroom" that I see many jumpers using is a bad idea.

To add to this post; getting some BASE jumpers in your instant messenger (MSN or ICQ) list, or even better; some phonenumbers, is a great idea!

When I was just started out I would often bug multiple experienced people and be like: "Hey, I'm about to jump this 270 footer, but I only have a 42 inch pilotchute lying around. Do you think that's okay?" Or: "I'm thinking about doing a 310 foot building handheld, would you use a 46 or a 42?"

I'd always crosscheck the information with what other people say, what the books say, and what my common sense is telling me. You get a ton of useful information this way. Information that is not always available on these forums, on the many published delay charts, or in other resources.

Thanks Tom, Faber, Seth, Tim, Michael and Chad.

I'm by no means an experienced jumper; but if you do happen to go out for a jump one of these days, don't hesitate to bug me. I always love hearing about other people's plans and maybe we'll both learn something from each other. My contact information is in my profile.

Mmm, interesting. Do you have any theories on why this might happen? And what is your recommend strategy? I s-fold the bridle in my hand and continue along with the pilotchute (stretching the mesh and center-line first), making sure I plan my folds such that the top ends upward. I'm no longer sure which FJC taught me that, but I'm curious what your recommended handheld technique is.

Several. Unfortunately I'm about to go to bed, so I'll try to expound on them tomorrow.



That's the same technique I teach. I'm not sure what Apex teaches, although I think it might be the 'S fold the mesh and leave the ZP out over the top of your hand' technique, which I also think is superior to a mushroom, although I have some concerns about it for deep handheld delays.

The way i was taught. is to run my hand up my bridle over my mesh and up till i hit where the mesh joins to the F111 or ZP. trapping the air being able to fill into the ZP. from then on i work backwards Sfolding the mesh then the bridle in my hand till i get the right lenth.. making sure the bridle comes out the top on my hand between the thumb and index finger. the ZP material mushrooms over my hand.

for low delays i have been told to not trap the ZP as much so the pilot chute starts filling up with air earlier and for deeper delays trap it completely so it cant fill with air till you pitch.

How does this way sound to you tom?

This is actually pretty good topic and I'd like to hear more opinions about stowing big (46/48) PC's. I have been doing these 2 A's where I've been thinking about pros and cons of this topics. I've been doing them so far with 46", two times stowed and all others (like 13 jumps or so) hand held. The case on these A's is that they are about 95m high (about 280-300ft) but they both have some 10-15m high pine trees just underneath so you really have only ~80m of alti (~240ft) to clear the trees and make it to the landing area. However, these A's have pretty sketchy exit points and it would be nice to be able to use both hands while climbing to the exit and that feels a bit tricky when having 46" PC in your hand. That's why I have been thinking about going stowed. You really cannot fold your PC to your hand on the exit so you pretty much have to exit with the configuration you have once starting to climb there.

So what would be your choice on an A like this on a 1-1,5s delay, go stowed with 46, take 42 stowed on a 240ft (280 to impact) A or use 46/48 hand held and accept the sketchy climb to the exit ? I jump troll 265 on gargoyle container and load it around 0.6.

Super Mushroom

My choice for the situation you described:
Stowed
46 or 48 PC
Super Mushroom

What I would not want to use for the situation you described:
Handheld - because of the sketchy exit point
42 or smaller PC
regular mushroom or any other style whereby the PC fabric is flapping around your hand as you exit.

To all:
I have made hundreds and hundreds of BASE jumps using the Super Mushroom PC packing technique stowed (including 42, 44, 46, and 48 size PCs - hundreds of those jumps have been with 46 and 48 PCs). I have NEVER had a pilot chute hesitation using the Super Mushroom. On some jumps while using the REGULAR mushroom, I have experienced PC hesitations - especially stowed but also handheld.

The danger of the other method that some people use (whereby they leave the zp fabric loose on top of their grip) is that the fabric can snag/wrap around your arm or hand or finger. Ive seen it happen many times both on video and with my own eyes. Every time the jumper went into panic mode shaking it off their hand - they probably thought they were going to die...and they would have if they had not gotten it off. Also with this method you cannot make as good of a throw to keep the PC away from your burble.

The larger the PC, the tighter it will fit in the BOC. Realized that, know that, check how hard the pull will be before you get in the car to go. The way you pack it (the shape) also affects how easily it will come out of the BOC. In other words packing it in a cylinder shape with nearly equal bulk throughout will extract smoother than packing it with the deep end having more bulk than the cap end. Also, you want to have a nug under the cap to serve as a handle. This way you will get a good solid grip quicker and wont lose your grip when you go to pull out the PC.

Hope this helps!

I believe this is the method that Apex teaches. I think it's pretty good, but I like the "S fold everything" method better, for two reasons. (1) I think it gets a tighter bundle to throw to full bridle extension, and (2) as noted a longer delay can cause the ZP to start inflating and create some stability problems if you let it slip around in your grip.

I have seen good video of a jumper experiencing a noticeable hesitation with a hand held super mushroom from under 300'. The jumper is a regular poster here, so perhaps he will chime in with details of his experience.

Johnny, please believe that this is not meant as any kind of attack on you personally--it's just a discussion of a technique for stowing the PC. I believe the super mushroom is less prone to hesitation than the standard mushroom for stowed jumps, but I also believe that any mushroom technique has a higher hesitation rate than the 'S folded' or 'Loose ZP' techniqes described in this thread.

 

I don't ever think I was specifically told not to stow a 48-inch pilot chute. I just kind of realized it would be a bad idea for a few reasons:

1) Stowed pilot chutes hesitate more often than handheld
2) Larger pilot chutes have a greater tendency to hesitate than smaller pilot chutes
3) If the object is low enough to require a short enough delay to dictate a 48 inch pilot chute, then I should probably go handheld anyway
4) It's virtually impossible to fold my 48-inch ZP pilot chute small enough to get it to go in and STAY in my pilot chute pouch

As for the 300 foot A with a sketchy exit point and jumping a FOX VTEC 265, I'd probably go stowed with a 42 inch pilot chute packed with the Super Mushroom technique. (Tested this method from 250 feet, actually.) Given the trees at the bottom and depending on the distance I'd need to clear to make the landing area, I'd rather go handheld with a larger pilot chute if I could figure out how to safely climb to the exit point.

I'm still a novice, so there might be better ways. I'd definately get advice and/or see how others are doing it if I'm not going solo.

Lou

5) I'm suprised no one has mentioned that by trying to stuff a huge PC into your normal PC pouch will stretch it out. If you regularily go from big PC to small PC on the same rig you are risking the smaller PC slipping out on terminal delays from the loose pouch.

I almost always go handheld when doing slider down jumps. Especially with 46' or 48' PC's. Do you really want to deal with a PC delay or a missed grab when you're that low?? If the exit is that sketchy where I have to stow a big PC, I probably won't make that jump or I'll find another way to do it. Have you thought of doing a SL from a lower more easily accessable exit point? Do you really need to go from the top? The above mentioned stowed from 250ft with a 42"pc sounds like trouble waiting to happen to me (but I'm more on the conservative/want to live a long time side).
Oh, I also have 'hundreds' of test jumps going handheld from low altitudes and haven't had a problem with my technic either

Jason

First of all - I have never said that a hesitation is NOT POSSIBLE using the Super Mushroom. I have simply provided the experience I have with it, based on hundreds and hundreds of jumps. It has been very reliable for me.

One of my basic beliefs in parachuting is: Weird Shit Happens
Another one of my beliefs is: There will always be a random element when it comes to fabric responding to random air molecules.

Common sense says - A PC HESITATION IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE NO MATTER HOW YOU PACK/HOLD/THROW THE PILOT CHUTE.

Anyone that thinks there are guarantees in parachuting does not have common sense.


I know what it is.

Do you think that far more seasoned jumpers than you or Tree will want to post valuable experience and knowledge, when you and Tree come back with replies like that?

You both put a negative spin on a technique that can save lives.
For example, take the Russian jumper (fatality#79) who had a hesitation going stowed from a ~300 foot Antenna. If he had been using the Super Mushroom that may not have happened.

Tom, please dont start your fighting and endless squabble with me again.

Thats because it works. So I take it from your post that you have never had a hesitation using it either then.


Im surprised you have not seen the loose ZP technique almost kill someone. There is a good clip of just that in one of Dennis McGlynns Videos he put out in the mid-90's.

A noticeable hesitation? So not a serious hesitation then?.....like what it possibly could have been if he/she had used the regular mushroom, and possibly based on the other factors which we should all know also come into play here such as how the PC is held, how it is thrown, what direction it is thrown, airspeed when thrown, and yes even how neatly was it packed. That is why I stated on my website:
That sure doesnt sound like Im trying to sell it as bombproof.

Hi Johnny
How long delays do you do whith a 48`?
How long delays do you do whith a 45-46`?

Personaly i dont use 48` But has to say i have one that has been used once for a SL as a back up

Usaly i use my vented 46`handheld 0-1.5sec above that i use`vented 42`either handheld or stowed(stowed=2 or more secs slider off)

Its all personal and im not in a place to tell people what is right or wrong..

Read Adam Filippino's (sp?) guide "To stow or not to stow" on the CR website. If you are using a 48" PC, then there is no compelling reason to go stowed, unless the exit point is so difficult that it merits it.

Yeah Tree... its all luck...

I dont BASE jump according to statistics...good thing its all luck!

So basically what youre telling everyone is that they should not be too sure about the Huck-It container since it has not been tested anywhere near 10,000 times. Probably only tested a hundred times at best....not reliable.


Its all luck dude.


Oh, you mean like when you said (quoted here) you could hook it in again and again with no problem because you had gotten away with it once. Thanks for clarifying.

Oh, so now that many people are using and also believe in it, you think its a good technique. Thats straight up bizzare (and good luck) seeing as you were the one person who totally tried to discredit it when I first posted about it on this forum
Dude, I had been jumping it for years before I posted about it. The reason I posted about it here, was because BASE 689 was asking me to put up some pictures of it on the internet. So I did to help others out.

This is not a popularity contest for me like it is for you.
I know exactly why you tried to discredit it. Because it was something that I thought of and tested and shared.
Oh no, we cant let people think Johnny knows what he is talking about.
That would go against our political agenda.


Whos doing that?
You are the one who is misleading people, just like a politician.

Just like with stocks hun? So it really is a crap shoot then. Im surprised were not all on the list.

Tree, youre a waste of time.
I thought you were going to stop your nonsense.
You hurt other jumpers when you discourage knowledgable jumpers like myself from posting here.

Oh yea, its all luck....nevermind.

Faber, sorry man, I just wasted a bunch of time trying to set the record straight so people would not be mislead by Treejumps. Ill see if I can get some time later to share my experiences with you and others.

 
>>Johnny! Who the heck let you back in here anyway?

Seriously bro, it's a shame every time you post on here trying to share it turns into a flame fest. Pity.
Resume

 

I agree. The main reason I had one stuffed in there was for storage for the climb up. The bastard kept slipping out and actually made the climb scarier than it should have been. Doing that repeatedly will surely stretch out the pouch.


Not something I've done more than once or plan on repeating unless there's a really, really good reason.

Lou

PS - I'm a big fan of the Super Mushroom for nearly all my stowed jumps. It might take longer to pack, but if it helps even a little bit, that time packing is time well spent.

Dude, its: I am an FBI agent!

Whos the one thats wasted?

Now go back to jumping PCs with no hole in them and hooking it in....
Your luck is running high.

Sigh...

Tree, Johnny,

Enough already. Let's keep this discussion about the technical topic at hand (large PC's, stowing them, and techniques for stowing them).

3rd grade playground insults are silly and counterproductive. Dredging up old posts that people made about topics unrelated to this discussion isn't terribly useful either.

I'm banning both of you for 24 hours. That ought to give you time to cool down and cut it out, but still let you return to the productive, technical parts of this discussion to offer input.

Consider this your warning.

hmmmm...

I've been around long enough to know I could learn a lot from JohnnyU, Tree, Tom, and others.

I also know BASE is getting many new participants. they will know little about past offenses and won't search the archives. what they know will be based primarily on what gets posted NOW.

please watch what you say. your presentation can seriously distract from very important points.

as an example, I've heard nothing but praise regarding Johnny's FJC. he can teach newbies vital skills. but I fear the less than professional posts might discourage people from taking his course. that would be a big mistake.

to all:
let the past be. be friendly, helpful, and lead the new jumpers. don't discourage them from reading your posts.

What physically causes 48" to hesitate more often than 42?

Is there a known connection with how long before the jump PC was packed? I always repack PC as close to jump as possible. On my accident jump, I repacked PC on top of the cliff just minutes before the jump. It was stored in the pouch for about a week and was quite dense and retaining its dense cylinder shape with almost no expansion. It took me a couple of strong yanks to completely unfold it.

Bigger PC is compressed in the pouch stronger and may take longer to unfold in the air stream.

I think it's mostly just a "more fabric takes longer to unfold, and has more chance for random factors" kind of thing.




Definitely. On stowed jumps where I really want to avoid hesitation, I tend to repack my PC at the exit, after airing it out a bit. If I know I'm doing something stowed and don't want a hesitation, I'll sometimes leave the PC unpacked and out of the stashbag, as open as possible, when I pack the rig, and then just pack the PC when I gear up.

OK, keeping this discussion about the technical topic at hand. I have just a few thing to say.about believing every thing you hear and read about concerning BASE Safety Facts. - ESPECIALLY POLES
-
-
jaap:
..."Going at it alone is great, but there's a ton of little facts -like this one about large pilotchutes- that you won't pick up unless you start hanging out with experienced jumpers."
"Anyway, just curious what the poll will say. Maybe I'm wrong and everybody learned this during their FJC".
Cheers, Jaap

-
Wow. Just curious. Have you -Jaap- or any of you Bozo's (scardy cats) ever done even a Hundred Stowed jumps with a 48- inch Pilot-Chute BASE jumping ?
No - Is that what you all are saying ?
Then how the hell do you ALL Know It Will Hesitate ? Because that is what you have heard or been told ?
How can you - ALL just AGREE - with this Hesitation Theory. Without Trial of experimentation ?
You Do Not Know This Is A Fact. For me this is not a Sound Theory.
A 48-inch PC Stowed. Does NOT promote Hesitation.
.
I have done and Logged, Several Hundred Jumps over Several Years of using a 48" STOWED and have Never experienced any Hesitation in Tow.
That is ALL I ever used to jump Stowed for YEARS. was a 48-inch.
I believe this Hesitation Theory on going Stowed 48-Inch is called a, Hypothesis (educated Guess) Not Fact.
.
So I am going to have to call Bullshit on the - Hesitation Theory - when going stowed with a 48-inch Pilot Chute.
Just on the plain FACT that I have done a HUGE amount of Stowed Jumps. With a 48" PC. Several Hundred actual BASE jumps. over a Several Year period.
I believe you call this 1st hand Knowledge. (Reality), Done by ACTUALLY Doing It. Not Hypothesis (guessing).
.
.

It's like a scientist is plotting a few scattered data points, and drawing a theoretical curve to best fit these points. Suddenly, a new batch of data (hundreds of points at the opposite side of spectrum) arrives and overturns the previous theory.

It would be interesting to hear details of the 48" hesitations. How long before the jump the PC was packed? Was it made of that sticky ZP that almost killed Jaap? How new/old was it? What was the folding method?

As an unexperienced jumper, my small contribution is that 42 has a greater variability in opening height on 0-2s delays than 48, which seemed to be very consistent from jump to jump, stowed or handheld.

Here is my 0.02.

First Yuri's strike was due to body position not the PC.

I do not stow anything bigger than a 42 for the reasons mentioned by you and others.

However I've had hesitations using a 46 vented (HH), few times. Ever since I switched to a 46 (same brand and fabric) with no vent, disk, or handle no more hesitations...

New jumpers are attacted by the "cool" factor about going stowed. Forget about exiting stable and on heading, as long as they go stowed it's all good.

I heard few times from a wise man that going stowed below 300' is asking for trouble...

As for the 48" I don't use one.

And for stir in some more crap to the mix. DW used to do gainers off a 180 stowed with a 52", go figure!

Are you calling me a scardy cat and bozo, or did you exclude me from that monniker by explicitly mentioning my name?

Just checking...


I haven't done a hundred jumps without a tailgate, yet I jump with one. That's silly too then? I haven't done a hundred BASE jumps with a skydiving setup, should I do so just to make sure I statistically prove to myself it's a bad idea?

When sufficient experienced jumpers tell me it might be a bad idea, and I combine that with what my own common-sense is telling me, and put on top of that the fact that stowing a 48 inch PC doesn't buy me anything (when I stow, the altitude allows a smaller PC anyway), the only natural conclusion is to avoid it.

There's no rocket science to it...

Some theories:

Although I've got some video evidence to support these, I wouldn't say that I've seen anything conclusive, so they're still just theories:


1) More folds in = More folds out.

The more folds that you put into a PC when you prepare it, the more folds that have to come out of it before it can inflate. When the mushroomed PC hits line stretch, it still has to "de-mushroom" before it can reach a fully extended state. A PC that is simply S folded unfolds itself as it reaches bridle stretch. Because there are no folds "around" itself, it is fully extended immediately upon reaching bridle stretch, eliminating the unfolding process, and hence eliminated a few of the chances for hesitation (say, if one side of the ZP folds manages to somehow slip "under" the bundle, and it takes a few fractions of a second for them to straighten out and get into a "ready to inflate" position).


2) Deformation of the mushroom.

As you pitch a mushroom to bridle stretch, the center of the mushroom, where the bridle is, has a greater mass than the outside of the mushroom, where the ZP is. As the ZP begins to expand outward, it experiences more air friction than the (covered) inner part of the mushroom (typically the mesh, but more importantly the bridle folds). As the outside fo the mushroom (the ZP) begins to slow and expand a little outward, the (still travelling faster, and experiencing less slowing) bridle bundle pushes tighter into the apex of the PC, essentially creating a condition in which the PC is trying to invert itself. This is not an ideal pre-state for PC inflation, and the "undoing" of this condition introduces more variables, as well as more required time, prior to the PC reaching a "ready to inflate" position.


They're just theories, as I said.

Ray,

Does your 48 have a vent, cap or handle on the apex?

Just joking as usual - (scardy cats)
You are the Author (starting) of another BASE jumping Pole is the only reason that I used your name at all. Not Picking on you in particular. (hear that rl ?)
.
We are not talking about Line-Over as stated by you as an example. The benefits of Tail-Gate use has be documented by Years and countless Thousands of BASE jumps as Proof to the Reality of it's Efficiency and benefits of reducing the Line-Over. Tis is called. Trial by Experiment.
.
The Statements, Going Stowed with a 48" PC causes Hesitation. People (BASE Jumpers) are telling you it's bad. But I do Not hear anyone or Read any Data on Numbers of jumps by FACT. Only hearsay and a some Isolated and negative experiences with a 48" and going Stowed. Spread Over and Over and Over by story told and handed down from mouth to mouth and spread like a symptom of a Common Cold, By Internet Chat. With no proof or hard Numbers to back it up. Leeding to this Wives Tail of BASE safety No-No's not to do.
I have put in some Hard Numbers. That is plain Just Fact.
.
I am NOT Bragging. This is just the way things Accidentally worked out. Fact is I have Done hundreds of BASE jumps going Stowed with a 48" PC with no hesitations. The only reason I even slowed the use of a 48" for the majority of jumps in the year of 2005. Was that It gives me a Favorable advantage on the positive side. When there is less distortion on the Flair when I land using a 42-Inch. Only because my legs and Back are getting sore lately. When thing work good for so long and are not broken. I don't try to Fix it. (My basic survival Rule).
I am only stating the fact that this mechanical combination combined with my personal mechanical habits and techniques in relation to Me. Tossing Out My 48" pilot chute Stowed have worked successfully for sum time now. With no adverse affects for Years.
Dispite What the Law of the Land CLAIMS as, Hesitational-PC Fact.
-
jaap:
..."and I combine that with what my own common-sense is telling me, and put on top of that the fact that stowing a 48 inch PC doesn't buy me anything (when I stow, the altitude allows a smaller PC anyway), the only natural conclusion is to avoid it'.
.
These kind of statements are what I am talking about. (and it's not just you)
We are Not Talking about the 48" Stowed and extracted on Freefall. Buying you any Benefits. We are talking about Hesitation caused by 48" going Stowed. Added by this Safety BASE Rule that was added with out any Hard Numbers to back it up. Passed down to You. Then you stating this along with the internet Pole - BASE Chat. Ending with the conclusion to, Avoid It. Which ADDS to this, BASE Wives-Tale of. - Going Stowed with a 48" PC causes Hesitation.
.
As you state. "There's no rocket science to it...
.

tom:

"Does your 48 have a vent, cap or handle on the apex"?
.
Only a 1000 Den. Cordura Crown Cap. Just an average looking 48" PC I sew up in Garage.
I think I still use the original 3-48" PC's I made up. I don't know when ? they work and I don't change them.
PC construction methods is not what I am getting at here though.
.

No, we are talking about whether or not this has a higher probability of hesitating compared to stowing smaller pilotchutes.

Although strictly speaking I actually started the thread to point out there are things you won't learn in your FJC, and that's why we should hang out with experienced jumpers.


You never heard me say that. I did say it has a higher chance of hesitating compared to stowing smaller pilotchutes.

I won't debate whether or not this is true. I must admit your point of view is refreshing, and it's an interesting reminder that we shouldn't always take for granted what other experienced people tell us.

That said, I still don't see a reason to go stowed with a 48 inch PC since I enjoy going handheld at those kind of delays. Perhaps when accessing a sketchy exit point, but I'm a scaredy cat so I'll probably avoid an object like that anyway.

Thanks Ray...

Hey no Problemo.....
Like I stated it's not just what you are saying in particular. The thread led to some Safety conversations that 48" PC's have hesitation habits.
Hey I will go Stowed if the occasion calls for it. Also for all those many stowed 48" PC jumps. A 42" might have worked just fine also. I just find it difficult to accept some Rules, and most BASE jumpers do. Especially one that has no proof to back it up.
And Dude I am a (Scardy Cat) at times and a cautious BASE jumper. Or I would not have lived for this long....
.
edit change: for mi spelin suks
.

I never said it would hesitate,but my guess is that its more prone to do so.
My real concern about LARGE pc´s in your BOC is:
1st. larger BOC means bigger chans of loosing the beer you just stashed there before you jump off a legal S
2.nd Larger ´pc means less space in the BOC,which will require a stronger pull,a stronger pull can cause stability problems causing offheaddings,which can ruinyour day
3.th i THINK that forcing that much material together will keep it tight and on a bad day it MIGHT cause a hesi.

Only becourse you thourght that a 42´couldnt carry your fat arse

how can you tell,from what i heard you close your eyes soon as you leave the exitpoint and opens them first under canopy,perhaps you thourght you packed slider up and didnt think of the difference

hope your all good bro

faber:
..."and have Never experienced any Hesitation in Tow.
how can you tell,from what i heard you close your eyes soon as you leave the exitpoint and opens them first under canopy,perhaps you thourght you packed slider up and didnt think of the difference"
----

Hey I have had only, 1- PC in Hesitation on a BASE jump.
It was exiting from 210-feet going Hand Held. Which led to a 1-1/2 second Canopy Ride.
.
Hey and the only reason I close my eyes on a BASE jump Is because I am Tired.
Tired from staying up all night. Drinking and Playing with your Momma !......
.

 

Its from the dramatically increased fill volume for a super large PC versus an average size PC that causes the potential for more hesitation in addition to the longer unfolding process.

I completely agree.

When I was younger (some would say more foolish), I used to go stowed from low altitude a lot. I'd regularly be the only stowed guy on the load, with a 46" or 48" in my BOC. Even after a noticeable hesitation stowed from about 240', I kept doing it.

I like to think that I'm older and wiser now. My personal limit for stowed is probably riding right around 300' nowadays.

 I think it's pretty good, but I like the "S fold everything" method better, for two reasons. (1) I think it gets a tighter bundle to throw to full bridle extension, and (2) as noted a longer delay can cause the ZP to start inflating and create some stability problems if you let it slip around in your grip

Yep. Jaap described it pretty well earlier in this thread. When I started jumping this was the standard method for handheld pilot chutes. I know that it was still pretty standard at an IPBC event I went to around 2001 or 2002. It's still the method I teach. I'm really not sure when or why so many people started trying to create "improvements" to this method. I can say with certainty that Dwain chose to use this PC folding method for his ultra low jumps because he felt it gave the least chance for PC hesitation outside the "Feteris" method (PC pretty much full inflated before you leave the exit).

Is there anyone out there who initially learned this method and later changed to some kind of hand held mushroom? Can you tell us why you made the change?

I s-fold the bridle in my hand and continue along with the pilotchute (stretching the mesh and center-line first), making sure I plan my folds such that the top ends upward. I'm no longer sure which FJC taught me that, but I'm curious what your recommended handheld technique is.If your worried about making sure that the top of your pc is left facing upwards then why don't you just start your sfolds there and work your way down?Is there any specific reason to start your sfolds at the bridle or is it just the way you were taught?

Sorry can't respond to the poll because this option does not exist.

Never did it because it was so obviously a bad idea because of pouch / pilot chute size incompatability and why the hell would you want to go stowed if you needed a 48" pc anyway option?


be safe

kleggo

It's not really a worry, it's just that I sometimes have to backtrack one or two folds on the mesh to make sure I come out correctly.

You're making an interesting observation though and the only honest reason I'm not doing that is because I've never tried it. I will do so as soon as I come home. I'm not convinced it will be easier, but who knows...

Thanks!

P.s. just so as long as we always make sure the bridle comes out the top of the hand (between the thumb and the index finger).

Many people fold the PC into their opposite hand, starting at the top, then switch it into their pitch hand once they finish folding. That way the top is in the palm of the hand as you fold it, to keep it controlled, until you switch it into the other hand.

The reason for starting the folds at the bridle is so that you can measure the bridle length over your shoulder, down your arm, and into your hand, before you start folding.

Should you go stowed for 300' cliff gainers? Adam Colorado and Brian Ohio both think so...

Peter Kolorado

Hello,
Busting a move off a low freefall object is an option.
I prefer to go stowed, and sometimes with the 48".
I have rigs equipped for those smaller jobs needing bigger pouches.
For flips off, say a 260' guyed antenna, or other similar small stuff.
Maybe you aren't prone to such foolish behaviour.

Either way, any way, always, for me,
there's only one way to fold and stow a pilot chute.
I always use the same method, including all skydiving.
I don't do the mushrooms.
I do it my way.

God bless you.

Avery

Edited to add: No vote for me in the poll.
There is no "Sure, no problem" spot.

how do you fold your pc then?

Here is my question for the people who have maybe done something like this before....because I honestly have not.
I have seen situations like this before, but like I said have not done anything like it myself.
What if you are going stowed from around 200 feet. I am sure there is going to be a million people reply saying you shouldn't and I do not disagree, but if you do, what would you do?
Would you get your closing loops (if using a pin rig) ridicuously loose and stow a 48 or 42. Would you not loosten your loops at all? And if you didnt what pilot shoot would you decide to go with? The situation I saw was with someone hanging from a tyrollean (obviously stowed) at MAYBE a few feet over 200. The jump was uneventful and the person had a pretty short canopy ride. I believe this person used a 46 or 48 but don't hold me to it. But to get back to the original question.
If a person decides to go stowed from an altitude that low would you accept the possibility of a hesitation from a bigger pc just for the fact that it is bigger, or would you go with less drag with say a 42 while trying to avoid the hesitation.
Have fun be safe.
bsbd.

In regard to the closing loops, I would (theoretically because I think I would opt not to jump if it was a mandatory stow from 200') use spectra.

 
>>So Johnny Utah and Ray Losli (the most experienced jumpers on this thread) are speaking out and saying basically the same thing as each other, that they each have done hundreds of stowed jumps with a 46 or 48 without hesitation problems
(Johnny is saying that with using the super mushroom), and you flame Johnny saying that 10,000+ jumps would be needed for the data to be valid and then after flaming Utah more you praise Ray saying his data is good.

>>Pretty flimsy flip-flopping there Tree.
Seems like you have a Jealously issue with Johnny Utah. And that was wrong that Utah got banned along with Tree for 24 hours, Tree was flaming him. Seems like what Johnny has been saying all along is true.

>>I am also a big fan of the Super Mushroom. Once you understand how it works, it's easy to see how it's superior to any type of s-folding of the PC.
Brilliant concept!

>>I want to thank Johnny Utah for standing up and sticking his neck out, taking the flames, and posting what he knows in an effort to keep newer jumpers safer. It must be frustrating when you try to pass on your experience you get attacked by others for personal reasons or just to stir up trouble. Johnny Utah obviously has a lot of passion for the sport and to teach new jumpers and help them be safe.

>>Keep the solid advice coming Utah, your efforts are appreciated. Thank you as well Ray, some of us ARE listening guys.

I believe I'm the jumper you're talking about. (Maybe not)

I used a super mushroom that I packed basically at the exit point. I used a solid surface to pack the PC and the technique was no different than what I've been using for the last two years.

My jump was a go-n-throw from 240'. I exited with a head-high attitude so that I wouldn't swing under canopy on opening, and I would be able to react quickly to any offheading. (This isn't a great place to have a 90 in either direction)

As my feet left the exit point, I threw the pilot chute to bridle stretch with a motion similar to throwing a dart at an upward and forward angle. (Just like I have done on every other hand-held go-n-throw.)

The pilot chute reached bridle stretch as my body broke the plane of the exit point. The pilot chute was fully extended, but towed for a moment before inflating and completing the deployment sequence.

I ended up with just over 7 seconds under canopy, while the average for the rest of the load was about 12 seconds. I know one other jumper on the load was flying almost identical equipment (same gear, different canopy size but similar wingloading) and my canopy ride was about half as long as his.

So, it wasn't scary low, but it was noticable both from the ground, and my perspective was interesting. I wasn't in danger of impacting, but it certainly cost me altitude.

But, that is the only hesitation I've experienced in about two years with the super mushroom.

Given the PC packing techniques I have to choose from, I would still use the super mushroom for all of my stowed jumps. For hand-held jumps, I'm using it for now, but I'm also tring other methods to see which I really believe yields the most consistant results..

I will jump a 46" PC stowed with the super mushroom and not worry about it. Stowed with a 46, I pack the PC at the exit point, or as close to jump time as possible.

I don't even own a 48. With an open landing area, I'd use a 46 (Very brand specific) all the way down to ~200' and any lower than that I'm going PCA or SL. It's possible I'd just SL from 200' too, but then other factors come into play.

All of my pilot chutes are built by Asylum designs. I only jump Asylum pilot chutes.


Edit: Oh yea, what do I think caused this? Nothing caused it. If anything, me jumping off the bridge caused it. I did, after all, jump off a perfectly good bridge and the only plan I had to avoid being killed...

get this...

was to throw a little parachute out into the air so it could pull out a bigger parachute and hopefully keep me out of the dirt.

Hesitations happen. Period.

Youre welcome.
If you and other jumpers (experienced and new) benefit from it, then its all worth it.

Cheers

I haven't known you to intentionally mis-represent people's experience levels or dismiss the opinions of very experienced jumpers, so I'm going to assume that you just don't know the people posting here.

You may have missed the posts by Kleggo:


and;



and Outrager:



These are two very experienced jumpers posting opinions opposite to your own. Without getting into a "my Dad's bigger than your Dad" contest, I'd just like to question your source for stating that neither of these jumpers might be one of "the most experience jumpers on this thread."

Chad,
Thanks for posting the feed back.
I use a couple different methods when going hand held.
The Super Mushroom has really been mainly a stowed method for me, but then again, I feel comfortable going stowed on most jumps, except super low stuff like 200 or less, That was more up Dwains alley.

Maybe if I get some time later I will tell ya about my handheld methods more or maybe I'll just PM ya.

pretty sure you are referring to my jump at the Turkey Boogie in 2005

I had written a long post about my setup and why I went with a 46 stowed on a 210-220 ft freefall where stowed was pretty much the only freefall option, but then I figured the following is the most important thing that would have come from that post:

I will not do a stowed freefall that low over hard ground again.

In my opinion, consistency of inflation is more important than drag force. More drag may get you to line stretch sooner in 95% of cases, but if the cost is hesitation 5% of the time, the hesitation is going to be the real killer.

Jeez dude!!!
How far up Johnny Utah's ass are you going to go?? It looks like you have fallen for Johnny and his nice resume he's got up. I know more than 20 people who have similar or better resume's, if you want to call it that, they just aren't as vocal about it. Does this make them any less credible? I don't think so....Just because someone makes themselves more visible doesn't always make them right.
johnny and Ray are both well seasoned jumpers with tons of knowledge but there are many more with just as valuable information, you shouldn't discount their input, especially only having 17 BASE jumps yourself. I think that in the end as we are towing a pc in, we will find out that SHIT HAPPENS. PC's will hesitate for no apparent reason(stowed and handheld) and we don't currently have the technology, capacity or tens of thousands of test jumps in controlled conditions to figure out why. So what should we do? Make the jumps as safe as we personally feel is adequate, be it stowed or handheld, regular or super dooper mushroom. Oh, and keep looking for an answer even though there may be none.

Just out of curiosity, did you take a Johnny U. FJC?

Jason

relooking at that vid(becourse its a superstar shooting it)
I dont think your PC hesitated for that long,but i do think the way you packed/folded it has some of the guilt.. If you had folded it like the rest of us on the load i dont think it would have been any hesi..

besides if you take a delay(what you could from there) i dont think you would have had a hessi by the way you packed..

Just my poor oppinion

I just watched that video about 50 times before posting, and compared still shots of all three deplotments.

Did you change any of the settings on your stills camera between jumps?

I have pretty good photo evidence that the hesitation was significant. Of course, that's based on my analysis skills. Someone elses opinion may be different.

It depends on how much you mean by significant?

Mate i know you had a hesi i just think i were the cool guy keep videoing ang taking stills of it

Anyway i still say it were as the way you folded your pc but thats just me

Hi there,
Very interesting thread, thanks to all for sharing!

Johnny, read on the 'super mushroom' webpage :"I recommend only using pilot chutes WITHOUT a handle for the Super Mushroom. I only use handles for smaller PCs intended for longer delays in which case I should not need the Super Mushroom anyway"

so if i get it right, the super mushroom would only be used on a 'big' pc without handle ? ... that would mean you use super mushroom on what ? 42 - 48 ? (admitting you go stowed with 46 & 48 of course)

Thanks for the info, havent got much experience in-between sizes jumps.
well, actually, not much experience at all

For higher altitude and longer delay jumps, I usually just use the regular mushroom. I think I went into a bit more detail about that in a thread a while back. Theres a link to it in one of the previous post I made in this thread. I dont use the Super Mushroom on terminal jumps.

I dont decide to use it based just on pilot chute size. Its an altitude thing for me. If its under 400 feet and Im going stowed, I will be using the Super Mushroom. Between 400-500 feet I will sometimes use the Super Mushroom. If Im planning on humming it low on something below 500 feet (maybe 600), then I will usually use the Super Mushroom. Otherwise I will be using a REGULAR mushroom style whereby the mesh is s-folded. I think I say pretty much the same thing in that old thread.

Youre welcome bro. As always, these are just my ways of doing things, take it for what its worth to you. Hope it helps.

Johnny, do you recommend reducing the strength of the throw when using super mushroom? Can a too vigorous throw combined with fast inflation of super mushroom anchor the PC on the side, leading to offheading?

Thanks
Yuri

When going stowed (PC packed either way), I do a clean, solid throw, straight to the side (to bridle stretch).

If youre too vigorous about it, then Im picturing something like a wild throw. That can put more noise in your packtray and can cause the pilot chute to whip around a little bit, and both of those things could be the sole reason you get an off heading.