Basejumper.com - archive

Hi Shane (and everyone else),

I hope you'll respond to this thread and we can discuss this a bit more, and that everyone can learn from it.

First, I've attached to this post three .pdf files. They are 3 articles about BASE ethics, written by Adam Filipino, Tom Begic, and myself. If you have the time to review them, I'd love the hear your thoughts on each of them, and specifically which points you feel are incorrect, unnecessary, or irrelevant, and also what leads you to your view that this is all "a crock of shit."

In my opinion, the bottom line here is about hurting other people. If we care about hurting other people (mostly other jumpers), it makes sense that we would consider the consequences of our actions in terms of how they impact (both positively and negatively) others.

Do you think that we should care if our conduct hurts others? Should we actively try to help others? Does it matter if other people are hurt by our actions?

Let me be clear that I am interested in discussing these topics, regardless of my personal views on the subject.

edit to replace Filipino article with copy on current CR letterhead ~TA

Hey Tom, why didn't you highlight the other parts of my post that got your panties all in a bunch? Like:
"pretending that we are just totally reckless and disrespectful"
and
"Especially when people on this forum get thier panties all in a bunch."
You read these forums more than anyone. You of all people should know when someone is making a joke.

I'm actually interested in discussing that one specific statement of yours. That's why I quoted it.

So, does that mean that you aren't willing to discuss it? Or that it was just a joke and you didn't really mean it?

"Ethics" isn't what you say.

It's what you do.

rl

So you partially quote me and then start a new thread with it in the header. That's the second time you've done this Tom. Hmmmm.....
Maybe if you simply just unbunched your panties you wouldn't have such a problem with me and wouldn't take comments out of context to try and make a point.

I didn't think that the technical thread about CWADs needed to be side tracked into an ethics discussion, so I started a new thread and referred you to it. That wasn't an effort to take you out of context, it was my way of trying to keep that thread from drifting.

Why don't you provide the context for me, and help me to understand. Do you think that BASE ethics are a crock of shit, or was that just a joke? What, if any, ethical code do you subscribe to?

It sounds like you are saying that you are just misunderstood (or perhaps that I am intentionally misunderstanding you). Here's a chance for you to clear up that misunderstanding.

Then why did you only quote the part that didn't show the obvious joking nature of my post? To make your point naturally. And with the use of comments taken out of context.

Already did that. Read my post.

Of course not.
Yes, duh.

The code of short replys

Rhonda,
That would take too long and we would disagree and since I'm so dam right anyway I won't bother.

Time is $ and this subject doesn't entertain me like 730 in 2006 does. Sorry.

I did provide a link to the entire thread, and the post in question, in my original post. I had intended that to provide context for anyone interested in reading it.

In all seriousness, I was unable to tell that you were joking by reading your post. Given your past statements here, along with the angry correspondence I received from other jumpers in your crew when I first posted a draft of my ethics article, and the fact that you seemed pretty serious in most of that thread, I think it would be understandable for me to take your statements at face value.

Understandable.
The unfortunate thing about these internet forum thingies is one cannot detect tones and certain emphasis and general sarcasm very well without watching someone say it.
I'm still gonna jump from the top rail occasionally off of Miles' bridge.

I thought it was JT's bridge?

Until a week ago I thought it was Manships'.

Nope, it was JT's but he gave it to Miles after he took the 7 second delay off it.

 

You can't take a 7 off a 486' bridge, wiz kid.

AreUCrazy: That is pretty messed up, but I laughed so hard none the less, thanks.

I has to say that it might be my bad english but i read Shanes post as a joke.

Yes Shane is black sheep,but try read some of his posts,and not look agressive to it,you´ll laugh your arse off.

I directed this post to Shane as im pointing at all of us.

I think that even as Shane aint cleaver(Shane,can you read my joke,if not contact a greenie,as it then is personal attack),ha has tryed to give us info on what RB team is doing and why.I think that deserve some respect.

Perhaps its me,but i think Shane do care about etics,so does Miles,Felix etc etc theyre just the yahooos or were it wooohoos?(Miles??) that takes things slightly further.In old days that were Pionering to day its called jackassing,as who are the pioners theese days(besides the manufactors)?
In my eyes thouse who puch the limits and goes that bit further the rest of us dont...

Sounds like im in love?Not at all,i just tryed to turn it 180 degree and then tryed to look at it again whith fresh eyes..

Am i wrong? i dunno,but i bet it made YOU think again..

Yes, it did.

You made me think you've gone over to the dark side.

rl

if you think that looking at things from different ways means entering the dark side then yes call me in to the dark side.

If looking at diffrent issues in different maners,concluding on your own means beeing on the wrong side then count me in.

To me BASE is ALL about doing the right dessisions at the right time,then deal whith what ever brings on.

If you conclude that my above post stated that im all in to what Shane has done(and probaly will do) then your wrong.But atleast i dare to look at things in different angels,and express my oppinions against the light side..

when did BASE become mainstreamed?? or is it just a US thing

AreUCrazy, the attachment you have posted is one of the most digusting displays of bad taste that I have seen on a BASE/skydiving related forum.

I do not know if you ever had any contact with diabled people, but I can assure you that every single one of them who achieves participation in "the games" has achieved MORE than you might ever achieve. You might want to invest some of your time and energy in helping them and making their lives better instead of using it on an internet forum to make fun of them.

It's already hard enough for these people, and you making fun of them is NOT a display of compassion with the less fortunate. The attachment you posted shows nothing but just plain poor taste, bad education and a miserable mental attidute.

I ask you to remove the attachment, please.

oh, just in case you are one of the people that only speak one language (what are they called again?): the translation of my signature would be "respect is our task". that applies also to human beings outside of our sport.

He Mann, Er macht nichts. dieses Foto war hier für eine lange Zeit. Nicht nur hier.

People that speak one language are called Americans.

im not sure the UK´s will agree

Dansk er bedst

Yes. But it was also funny.

Humour is often in bad taste.

people that speak one language usually speak English...thats because at one time we owned 75% of this planet and that was all you needed to know...its a bit different now we are owned by the USA and have some of the easiest immigration laws on the planet...(we even give saffers passports now)..

I had better go and load the aloominum and plexiglass oreggano fawcett into the trunk of my station wagon.

once UK got beaten by the danish vikings.. perhaps you should start speak danish now..

That image is all over the web. It's more relevant to flame wars than the disabled. But that's besides the point: When did all these BASE jumpers become giant politically correct pussies?

Ethics in BASE are scarce. Screw all those guidelines. BASE jumping is fun. That's why we do it. It's total freedom. There are really only two things you have to do outside of jumping itself to maintain that fun: protect your people and objects. Fuck the specifics. It's common sense.

If what you're doing isn't adding surveillance to an object or hurting anyone, then huck it with your buddies, grab a beer, and say funny shit.

With a wife as a special ed teacher I don't find this at all in good taste. I see it all the time and should not even remotely think it is funny. Humor comes in all shapes and sizes and this place ain't the breeding ground for anything logical.


I think I know of where you are talking about and please, I don't want to learn another language.

So? Are you saying that just because it's all over the web we should just accept it?


How do you know it's less relevant to them?


WTF? Sometimes you just have to speak out against what you think is wrong.

No I speak more than one language, look at the attachment.
----
oh, just in case you are one of the people that only speak one language (what are they called again?): the translation of my signature would be "respect is our task". that applies also to human beings outside of our sport.
flummi
* Respekt - ist uns're Aufgabe (fanta4) *
----

edit to remove attachment ~TA

Please review the Forum Rules, specifically:



It's still a personal attack, even if it's in an attachment.

Consider this your one warning.

classic. well put.

"... protect your people and objects. Fuck the specifics. It's common sense. "

what fun would that be when we can debate the shit out of it uselessly on the virtualnet.

I had read those documents several times and yet broke a few rules that I would never intentionally have broken on a recent trip .

Guess, I can only get better .

Kris.

"Protect your people and your (our) objects", Amen.

 

sorry, not in my name.
base for me is not only fun.
and no way, it is not total freedom.
we are all walking in a world where we are not alone.
we are related to each other in certain ways, if we like it or not.
I don´t want to start a philosophy discussion about freedom of individuals or freedom of mind.
this is a major theme somewhere else.
if you consider yourself beeing totaly free during base, conclusion is that you are unfree most of the rest of your time..
by the way, what would you call guys, that say: slapp a basejumper in the face if you see one, that´s total freedom and pure fun...
but let´s stop that.

it is a big difference between beeing a p-c-pussy and show respect to others.
if this would be your world, your bridge or your selfbuilt object and you were the only one on that planet, then you could be able to speak of totally freedom and you don´t have to care about others.

as long as this is not the case, we all have to follow guidelines and are doing well with that.
more or less, that´s true.
maybe I´m wrong with that for you, but it works well for me.

Common sense should be enough. With so many objects and so many ways to jump, it's impossible to set up rules that apply to everything. It really is just common sense. The fact that written guidelines exist indicate that a lot of people are in over their heads by BASE jumping.

Avoid evidence of illegal jumps like being seen or damaging property. Why? Not because it's in so-and-so's PDF, but because you can be charged with a crime, and therefore punished, and it might make the object in question more difficult to jump without getting caught.

Plan your jump, leave yourself outs, stay aware of your environment, and don't try things too far beyond your known ability at less than familiar objects. Why? Not because of some loosely written code, but because you don't want to get hurt or killed.

Reminder: BASE jumping is fucking dangerous. If you don't have the level of common sense needed to dynamically make the right decisions before, during, and after a jump, then BASE jumping is not for you. If that's the case, hopefully your smarter buddies will let you know before you get selected out or arrested. No number of guidelines will help. These strict specific rules usually serve to allow underqualified (slow reactions, bad judgment) people to continue to jump and also stirs shit up when an enforcer calls out a heads up jumper that didn't follow an unnecessary "rule".

If you need written rules to dicate your BASE career, then maybe you should retire. If you don't get it without "reading the rules", then you never will.

 

"the" ethics or "the" rules do not exist.
no one "needs" written rules to jump
and this is obvious if you watch nowadays jumpers all around the world.
garbage in the swiss valley, injuries because of trying more than able, burning sites, .. just to mention a few.
what is the difference between being told during a jump course, not to jump in daylight on a sensitve exit or if this is written down?

these guidelines should make visible, what is behind the curtain.
it is not just someone alone with his jump. there is always someone else who wants to jump there.
and it doesn´t matter if legal or not.
we do a lot of official legal or tolerated stuff here in europe and have to act responsible.

in my point of view there is no need to discuss ethics.
ethics demand character.
if someone does not have that, he is excused.

this is not/should not be a written rule... it is a simple question of respect and normal behaviour. Worldwide.

the garbage thing was just an example.
I did some of my early E´s in that valley years ago.

a few years ago, no one had to drop a message here to name the bad behaviour in that area.
it was common sense not to litter the exit or even the packing area.
I agree, that there is no explicit written down statement, saying :you should not leave garbage behind the pub.
and I agree this should never be neccessary.

in fact, it is like we read it a few weeks ago
as it was posted here in that forum.
was it neccessary because everyone followed common sense?
I guess no.
or the common sense has changed.
what´s your opinion?

It has changed...I see it in people of all walks of life and even in my own kids...basiclly, people dont give a shit about what they do and how it effects others.Its sad....our kids today live by example...we dont seem to be giving them a good one...I saw a lady the other day throw a burger wrapper out the window on the freeway right infront of me ...if my wife and kids where not with me i am quite sure i would of taken my rover and run that stupid bitch off the road...... "is that road rage" or 'Idiot Rage"

some suckers need their butts kicked...
Moreover everybody hates to have to be the police...

My opinion is there should be a regulatory organism for BASE, and jumpers should pay a membership, and pay for exits, and would have to follow the rules otherwise would be banned from the BASE-DZ's...

I've heard it said, "character is what you do when no one is looking".

No that is called making chinese eyes picking your nose, and masturbation.

I like that, its a good ethos.

Its a pity more people don't follow it.

Exactly my point.