Basejumper.com - archive

this is my opinion regarding this matter:

- you should have your PRO rating and some stadium demo jumps before starting base

- you should be a rigger before starting base

- you should get to know the local basejumpers before starting base

- you should have a mentor before starting base

no who has bothered to do that would need to make the post that started this thread


edit for thread title ~TA

Woah, I'm not sure if you'll want to jump with us when you move here. None of the three active jumpers here live up to your benchmark. I guess we'll all soon be dead anyway.

I've met people who I'd introduce in the world of BASE with less than fifty skydives, and I've met much more people who I wouldn't let near a BASE rig even if they had a million skydives and fifty rigger certificates.

In the proper hands, BASE isn't as dangerous as many think. At least not from a scientific point of view.

But I hear what you're saying, looking forward to hucking Vancouver with ya soon.

I'll jump with pretty much anyone at least once...



it's not a benchmark, it's just my opinion

I didn't have all those when I started either, in fact, even though I have packed my own reserve the last 3 times, I still haven't made the time (and had the money at the same time) to get my rigger's rating.


I predict in less than 90 years!!

nice comeback, by the way...

I certainly did not mean that you need all the things I listed to survive basejumping.

having them will certainly put you at an advantage though, compared to not having them

it might make the difference when it counts


really?

How did/would they learn good awareness during and familiarity with deployments?


if I'm at the Perrine and someone with a million skydives showed up and said they wanted to jump, I'd hand them one of my packed rigs no problem.

if they go-in, I'll have the BEST story EVER!!


that's interesting

in my short time in this sport, I have seen 3 cliffstrikes in person ( two while I was under canopy flying away from the cliff the other jumper hit), helped carry three friends to vehicles and then to hospital and seen two life flight helicopters pick up very experienced and talented jumpers....

I'd love to see the data you base that statement on.


soon as I get there...


picture something that looks like an AA meeting, but with loads of dudes wearing tie-dye:

'Hi, my name is Sam and I have a jumping problem...'

See, you're exactly making my point when you added the "experienced and talented jumpers" part to your story. Time and time again it's been proven that even people that know what they're doing get banged up eventually.

When I say that BASE isn't that dangerous from a scientific point of view, I mean that all the knowledge in the world (the kind of knowledge you'd get from having a rigging certificate, a demo license, etcetera) isn't going to help as much as most BASE jumpers think when you're plummeting towards the earth with a solid object behind you.

The knowledge is beneficial, but I would really like to see the BASE community get of its high horse and realize that the sport ain't rocket science when approached in a rational and common sense manner.

The real issue is that plenty of irrational people without any common sense are trying BASE too. How to fix that? I don't know. There seem to be plenty of people willing to train them.

By jumping of the Perrine many times and continuing their skydiving career alongside their initial BASE career, having a BASE canopy in their skydiving rig permanently.

These people are a rarity, but I've seen them. They'd probably be safer then many of the current jumpers with 300 jumps. But that goes to what we all know already anyway; people are unique.

I don't buy it.

I learned far more about parachute deployments (and flight too) by doing 200+ skydives in one year on an elliptical canopy loaded at 1.7 while jumping my wingsuit, than I did by doing 50+ basejumps from the perrine in two weeks after my FJC.

and the knowledge and skills do transfer

I'm getting some MAD swoops on my blackjack now

The thing you'd get from the PRO rating isn't necessarily knowledge--it's experience and practice. Having to do stadium jumps would make you learn (by experience) to focus despite distractions, and to fly a canopy into small, often turbulent landing areas. I think that those experiences _are_ going to be beneficial when you are trying to avoid object strike, or trying to avoid hitting power lines on final, or whatever.



Unfortunately, the vast majority of the "it ain't rocket science" crowd go on to say "a bag of dogfood could do it" or "anyone who can step off a chair and pull a handkerchief out of their pocket can BASE jump."

The disconnect is in respecting the dangers of the sport, I think. The folks who have really evaluated the dangers realize that they are very real, and that some of them simply cannot be avoided. That means that they generally react negatively to someone saying "it's not dangerous." And, almost without exception, the people I've seen saying "it's easy" are also the one's saying "it's safe." Those are two different statements, but we tend (as a group) to react to them the same because we've seen them thrown out in tandem so many times, by the same people or person.




Unfortunately, even the best training can't "fix" irrationality or lack of common sense. Some traits just aren't trainable.

Name 5 people who've really done that.

A very large amount of the "pre-requisite" skills aren't really pre-requisites. They're just called that because we have all come to realize that the amount of prior training you have when you make your 20th BASE jump is very likely to be the same amount of prior training you have when you make your 200th BASE jump.

I don't think it's realistic to expect people to go back to the DZ and practice some more. Young BASE jumpers are enthusiastic, eager, and rarin' to go. You've handed them the loaded gun, and damned it they ain't gonna go out and do some shootin'.

me, maggot, brad, trent, max

edited to add: sorry Tom, couldn't resist

it's totally out of context, though, as of that 5, I'm the only one who had a relatively low number of skydives (around 350) when I started base

and I don't think I would describe my progression so far as typical for anyone ( who doesn't have a severe jumping addiction)

I've split this off the "Gear Sizing" thread.

Bringing in parts of this discussion that got lost in the thread split (can't you guys ever keep on track?):



980 wrote:



Tom Aiello wrote:




JaapSuter wrote:

Continuing a skydiving career can be as little as 20 jumps, some to test and tune your brake-settings, a few for playing around with your risers and some for odd landings (down-wind, low setups, etc.). That gives you a total of 70 skydives, 20 of which were on a BASE canopy.

Combine that with 50 Perrine jumps on which you've done obstacle-avoidance drills, malfunction practice, odd landings, zero gainers and a high dose of intelligence...

...then come to my town, and I'll happily take you to a local crane. You might not be ready for the local cliff, but then again; neither am I.

It's a Mr. Miyagi wax-on wax-off thing. I'll take you rock climbing and platform diving before I even jump with you.

well, there goes our jumping together, I guess...

I'm too scared of heights to go on a diving platform and there's no way I'm wearing those tight girly shoes they use for rock climbing...




oh, to stay on topic:

70 skydives - still not enough

Haha...

Remember that in your case you'll be the teacher and I'll be the student. You have more jumps and objects than I do.


Indeed, for 99% of people that want to try BASE. But I've seen the other 1%. I've even seen such a person correct a nasty 180 on a slider down cliff and come out unhurt.

sweet, i just got new batteries in my vibrator. Its hard having stuff delivered while I'm up here sitting in my tower. Now that i've pleasured my butthole, I'll stop being such a cock.

I realize that while a student should find a mentor he can trust, he shouldnt be limited to that ONE PERSON'S opinion. The internet is a GREAT PLACE to to put SAFETY PROMOTING information for new and old base jumpers alike.

gotta go now, off to ballerina practice and i can't find my favorite tutu.

nice one!

that's pretty crafty for a member of APOOPA!!

you guys crack me up

edited to add: if I'm annoying halfwit fucknuckles like you, then I must be doing something right!

also, if you bother to read what I wrote, I never said anyone should be limited to only their mentor's advice and opinions

Very mature.

You realize that all the time you spend typing in that new, fake, login goes away with just a few mouse clicks?

It's funny - I actually had all your prerequisites at or around the time I started BASE. But that is a rarity.

I agree that if you had all of them you would be in a better position than not having them.

But do I think they are necessary? Lets look at the PRO rating / stadium example. I have jumped into stadiums that are over 150m by 150m. Now, as a potential BASE jumper, it is better to have the skill and experience to do that than not. But are there better ways and measures for the skills that are required to do that jump? Yes. Accuracy training and skill progression is more important than getting the rating. You can get the rating based on politics and luck, but the actual skills require progression and application. There are also MANY landing areas in BASE that are much smaller and more difficult than many stadiums. Hence I would not bother pursuing the pro rating / demo jumps as compulsory but instead, pursue accuracy training. Recommeding the ratings is a great idea as there are many transferable skills.

I would prefer someone who has placed well in an accuracy tournament.


Mataphorically speaking, I think hands should be replaced with minds!!!! It is the decisions that you make that determine how risky an activity is, not the activity itself. i.e. "driving a car can be dangerous" -> "driving a car at excessive speed, in poor conditions, whilst under the influenceof fatigue and alcohol can be dangerous".

Just because there is a remote possibility that you could die doing something, does not mean it is dangerous. Danger and risk are relative. In the examples of driving above, the second example would be considered dangerous. But the first example is a laymans way of saying - "there is a remote possibility that an accident may occur, but it is not really dangerous".

Similarly, each BASE jump carries a certain level of risk. In many cases, this risk is very acceptable. Lets face it, there are not many of us who do it due to the possibility of death. We may accept that death is a possible outcome, but we do not do it because we want to die. Sometimes we can confuse that acceptance as an inevitability. Then jumpers add complexity to their jumps and bypass standard operating procedures. This is where BASE jumping becomes dangerous. I think the two scenario's are two different areas of the sport and that many jumpes believe only the second option exists. Hence the "danger" tag.

A further note, in the big push for recognition and so called "legalisation" of the sport of BASE jumping, it's participants continually shoot themselves in the foot by constantly admitting to the general public, that the sport "IS" dangerous.


You've made 996 jumps. If you thought that the rigger rating was that important, you did have the time and money. What you probably mean is that it is in fact, a very low priority to you. If you had the time to pack your reserve three times, you could have done it with an instructor, and it would have been a part of your training. When psuh comes to shove, we all have 24 hours in each day. We all decide how we spend that time. Most people also waste a lot of time on insignificant things. What we do each day is a reflection of our conscious priorities or our subconscious basic human needs. If you don't do something, it is not that important!!!!!!! BTW - I believe this because I am guilty of what I mention above - it is human nature.


Think about the mechanical actions involved in correcting heading. It is not that complicated. Experience is one factor that gives a person awareness skills (backing your point). There are people who have life experience outside of BASE jumping where their ability to assimilate information and utilise it is well above the average person. There are also people whose life experience outside the sport has developed their awareness well beyond the average BASE jumper. These skills ARE transferable. One person in particular who showed this potential was a young Pete W from Aus. There are many others.

I agree with Jaap's statement 100%. There are skydivers, and then there are skydivers. Jump numbers as a prerequisite are a filter and NOT a scientifically calculated measure of prior experience and potential futue skill. BUT, I temper this with the fact that if you do not know the experience and psychology of the potential BASE student, then you must use the jump number filter as a MINIMUM.


That tells me a hell of a lot about your suitability as an instructor / tutor and your motivations. I will be sure to steer the people I know and love clear of you. You shoud at least make an effort to inform a person of risks, training, etc. This is your obligation as both a human being and a BASE jumper. IF the million jump wonder chooses to ignore you, by all means, kick mud on them and take their gear when they go in. But you MUST make an effort first. Can I suggest reading up on BASE ethics somewhere. A number of people have written versions thereof.


Now, did you actually determine the root cause of the incidents????? I refer to my comments above about real and perceived risk and people's ability to measure it. For example, you stated "in my short time in this sport" this tells me that you have been in the sport for a short time (), and you are doing multi ways off cliffs????

I'd like to temper your experience with mine. In my long time in the sport, I have seen a number of accidents and fatalitites as well as many near misses, and I can categorically give you a reason for each one of those. And the most common factor is that people do dumb things. I have done them, my jumping mates have done them.

Over the last 5 years in particular, the number of participants has been increasing exponentially, the amount of training and skill and experience is being heavily diluted (with x suitable instructors and an increasing number of students, how will the skill be adequately shared?). The culture of the sport is changing from adventurers the thrill seekers. This in turn attracts a different mentality to the sport. adventurers are usually good risk managers. Thrill seekers believe they don't have the time and just want the experience. The elite are pushing the limits way faster than before. There are some that feel that they need to lift the ante to stay on top of the sport, this puts them above their own risk / skill limits.

If you look at your own group and your own experience and compare it to other groups, I would suggest that the incident rate is high. Sounds like people are being pushed way beyond their experience and skill level way too quickly. Compare it to other groups. On average, does yours have higher incident rates? This should tell you something about your risk tolerance, training and skill levels, and most importantly, your group dynamics and culture. If your group has not sat down and discussed this at all and looked within yourselves to see what the problem is, then you will never overcome these incidents. That does not make the sport dangerous, it means that potentially you / your group may be dangerous. You may think I am an arsehole, and I may have jumped incorrectly to conclusions (sorry if I have), but the fact remains, the incident rate of your group IS high. You are asking to back this up with real data. This is almost soundling like someone is fending off an allegation that they do not want to hear. The first step to overcoming a problem is to recognise that it exists in the first place. Several cliff strikes IS A PROBLEM, and it IS ABOVE AVERAGE.

As for data, I have done many jumps and jumped with jumpers with many jumps. I know people who have frequent incidents, I know people who never have incidents, and I know that both the scenario's are based on culture and personal ability to manage risk. Accidents happen for a reason (people will argue that it is just bad luck but this is incorrect 99% of the time). If accidents are frequent, then there is something fundamentally wrong going on. You either accept this, find out what it is, and fix it. Or you just go on the way things are going with the same results.

Your choice!!!!


Shit, I agree with Jaap again to some extent. Time to change my thinking. The activity is actually based on physical principles and psychology amongst other things. One of them is a pure science, the other is the root cause of most problems in the sport. You can choose to either accept it or not.


Sadly, that comment came from down under. I would like to temper my comments with the following:
- I truly believe that BASE for the average person at the average site is relatively simple in terms of mechanics. Psychology is what makes it difficult.
- most issues that occur in BASE jumping occur when people introduce complexity and unknowingly and unecessarily add risk. This complexity can start from jump number one or jump number one thousand. I believe that there are a number of fundamentals that people must learn at each STEP (yes, there are singular steps) of the learning curve. Modern BASE jumpers tend to alter, circumvent, ignore, miss steps from the learning curve. This may be deliberate, as a result of poor instruction, or for many other reasons.
- BASE jumpers tend to look for other world meanings to their accidents and incidents. The absolute majority of stuff ups ARE BECAUSE OF POOR DECISION MAKING. I have made them. I have studied many incidents / accidents and this comes up as a common theme. BASE jumpers don't like to accept that they may have stuffed up. Some want to believe that what they are doing is so far out there and so risky, that they had no control over what was going on. This is a sub conscious desire for relevance, significance, and a need to feel important.
- nobody should take the sport of BASE jumping for granted. This even includes static lines into water all the way up to extremely complex wingsuit flights from underhung mountains.
- those that learn in a logical / step by step manner and are honest with themselves and prepared to say no, will have the greatest chance of success.
- it does take a special person to BASE jump. I beleive that the physical is only a small part of the "special". To me the sport is more about managing the psychological than the physical. Not withstanding people who are totally uncoordinated or incapacitated, mots people could do it IF AND ONLY IF THEY HAD THE RIGHT PSYCHOLOGICAL MAKEUP. This is what makes excellent BASE jumpers excellent. The BASE Gods are those that have a combination of the physical and the psychological.
- Longevity in the sport is in direct proportion to your decision making ability. Dumb decisions = short time. Smart decisions = long time. No matter how much of an athlete you are, if you are an idiot, then you are an idiot and the chances of you stuffing up are higher.
- etc, lots of other reasons.


If they choose not to avoid them after knowing that they are there, then that is a choice. By definition, a choice is a choice that each person can choose to make. If you knew the risk and then decided to proceed, well, you have pulled the trigger and accepted the outcome. Remember that one step of the hierarchy of hazard control is to say NO. Once you know that a risk exists, you can also choose to manage it in ways that may alter the risk level.

i.e. If you have decided that you MUST do a 100 ft jump and you have the options of a hard earth or water jump, well, there is risk and there is managing risk. I know which one is a smarter / lower risk choice. What if you decided that you had to do a 100ft slider up jump? I don't think this is dangerous at all. I would just jump straight to the fact that this is stupid. We already know that the likelihood of success for this is virtually non-existant. Yet people still make these types of decisions and then correlate the activity with the word dangerous.



ME. Sorry Tom, as you know I enjoy having intellectual debates with intelligent people. So I had to put that one in..
But in general, as time progresses you point becomes more and more valid. So too is the number of cliff strikes & general incidents (per capita and gross), to me there is a correlation between accident rates and parallel participation in both sydiving and BASE jumping. Basically, those that make an effort and are realistic and use their brains have a higher chance of success compared to those that just "Nike It" (Just Do It).

If you don't have the time for your own safety and hence, your life, well, that is a decision that you have made and you have to live with the consequences. But don't blame danger on the outcome!!!!!



Anyway, gotta go. CYA

or scaling that wall, or dodging bullets, or ascending that rope, or climbing that fucking ladder, or running from cops or taking all that acid, or getting out of the k-hole or getting in the k-hole, or turing that 180 around, or kicking that dog in the face, or feeding him steak so he stops fucking biting you, or grabbing that crimper, and dyno to sloper to exitpoint or paying 2000 dollars for a plane ticket or taking the nite train so you dont have to pay for another hostel so you can get another beer or sleeping on the floor of some strangers house you met on an internet forum and jump off fucking buildings with, high on life, and drunk on endorphins and adrenalnie...

I FUCKING LOVE THIS SHIt.... what a pasttime, this "base"...

Tom, I think this post in and of itself should be made sticky...

I am saveing a copy in a text file in my BASE info file....

awesome post!

since I mostly agree with everything you have posted, here's some clarification on my post:


I went with the PRO rating / stadium demos instead of competing in accuracy because of the site evaluation and probably limited and technical outs on most stadium demos.


of those 996 jumps, 350 are skydives since I started base and 290 are basejumps, all in last 1.5 years, which is how long I have been basejumping for.
I have more (12) than the required number of instructor-observed reserve repacks. I have learned practically everything a basic rigger course would teach me from a few riggers. getting the knowledge and skills has been my priority, getting the rating is important to me, but having moved to a new continent and country 2.5 years ago and changed jobs twice in that time, I have limited money and time to work with and since I started basejumping I have either not had the vacation time from work (welcome to North America, here's 2 weeks a year vacation regardless of your work experience, because you're new to our company...), or I have had the time to dedicate a week to it, but opted to go see my family instead, or go to the Perrine to get super current and learn in the more forgiving environment. After I started base and acquired most of the knowledge and skills the course would have given me, being current and learning in a forgiving environment was to me the better option to keep safe than spending the time getting the actual rating. Also, most of my skydives are made on the weekends, so finding time to do them are easy enough. Finding a whole week of vaction time in a 1.5 year period (from your 2 weeks a year) that co-incides with the schedule of the courses offered is a lot harder. When I finally had the time and money, the choice was between the rigging course and a month at the Perrine followed by Moab. I've wanted to do Moab for a while and I figured a month at Perrine is better preparation than doing a course that wouldn't add anything to my present base knowledge and skills.


I agree with that.
The awareness and experience is what I regard as more important here and that's far more rare in lowtime skydivers.
My favourite example here would be the highly experienced professional paraglider pilot who took up base with very little skydives (I think none, actually) jumped a building in what was reported as 'sub-optimal' conditions and had a buildingstrike...
Some more deployment experience might have changed his decision process or let him know earlier that's something's not right.


ok, first, I didn't mean all of that part literally, it's my sense of humour...

Second, I'm not about to think I'm even nearly ready to teach anyone to start base, so have no fear for your friends and loved ones' safety. I might reconsider my readiness if I ever get up to 1000 basejumps, but even then I don't think I actually would ever want to teach anyone base.

Lets imagine there is a skydiver with literally a million skydives, my theory is that this person will ask all the right questions and do the required preparation before showing up at the Perrine and saying they want to jump.
I'm basing this purely on my limited experience with skydivers with 1000+, compared to skydivers with 5000+ jumps when they start base.
Of course, if they act like a know-it-all and have no interest in anyone's advice, then I'm steering clear of them.


OK, onto the incidents:


I am 95% sure that we have.


yes and no

I have been actively jumping since my FJC in July 2004. I saw the first cliffstrike in March this year, I had around 100 basejumps then and it was not a 2-way, I went first and due to the nature of the jump (450ft to impact, 2300ft to landing) I could watch the next jumper while flying my canopy.

The next cliffstrike I saw, was in Moab this year and that was a 2-way. I had around 280 basejumps then, which includes 50-something 2 ways and just over 10 cliffjumps.

Am I pushing the limits by doing 2 ways off cliffs at this early stage?


like I said, I'm 95% certain I know the reasons for the strikes

one is easy - my friend did a dumb thing

the other is not so easy, it involved an experienced jumper (400+ jumps) on an object I believe he has 200+ jumps from, no dumb things involved there at all, seemed like a number of fairly normal things happened in series and resulted in a bigger issue than the object was willing to forgive

the third strike I saw was from the ground, the jumper seemed to do OK until his canopy opened and hauled ass at the wall, he did a great job on the rears and got it off the wall, missed hitting the talus by not very damn much and stood up his landing. I don't know what his DBS are like or his wingloading or his packjob. he did have the same model and configuration of canopy as the experienced jumper from strike no.2, maybe there is more to that...



none of the three strikes I saw involved people from my group

they were all by jumpers from other areas and on my travels

I have seen 3 incidents from people in my group, but I have also seen a lot of jumps in that time.


Given the information above, would you still consider that high for my group?

I don't think you're an arsehole for saying that, I think my time in the sport and my post does not make it easy to get the right idea about how many jumps I have seen and how many are by my group.



like I said, none of those clifstrikes by any of the people in my group, I get around a lot, so I got to see a lot in the last 1.5 years

I would say I have seen at least 2000 basejumps, so I don't think the roughly 10 incidents I have seen on those are out of line. I've only seen about 100 cliffjumps, though, so 3 cliffstrikes does seem out of line there, they were slider off cliffs, though.

that's it for the extra info

the rest of your post is right-on, thanks!

cya
sam

Sam

What can I say - an excellent reply all round. With that sort of attitude I see nothing but a long and successful future in the sport for you. The fact that you took the time to consider my post and answer in an intelligent / logical/ thoughtful way shows your maturity. You were also diplomatic with my theories on high incident rates. I have lost my sense of diplomacy over the years (as you could tell - it's a great way to make friends in the sport ) and regardless of whether my response was correct, wrong, conclusion jumping, you still made an effort to answer without any personal twists or prejudice.

I wish you all the best with BASE jumping and life itself. I hope to see you on the edge someday.



Tom

2 weeks a year leave. Ouch. I wont tell you that I work for only 190 days!!!!!!!!