Basejumper.com - archive

I'm not jumping yet....
Repeat...NOT JUMPING YET...

I'm signing up for JohnnyUtahs BASE CAMP this summer and after reading his website and I would like to own my own equipment for class. I'm trying to get an idea of how much equipment will cost me and could use a little advice on size canopy/pilot chute and what rig for a beginner to buy.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I've also PM's Johnnyutah since he sells equiment, just posting this thread for other ideas, and hopefully to catch anyone awake right now.

Billy

For your FJC you are only going to jump of a bridge. Minimal equipment for this is:
- BASE Rig
- Helmet
- Good Shoes
- eventually Knee pads

I have everything on list except rig. What should I be looking at for rig? After researching canopies and PC's I know they are larger than what I skydive with. Not sure how much larger I need...or what brand for a beginner. Rig (pin/velcro) just need some direction on what a new BASE jumper should start on.

read this article by tom aiello...
hope it will help u a lot

http://www.dropzone.com/...etail_page.cgi?ID=65

That website was exactly what I needed. Thanks....

Only question I still have is Canopy Size?

Search the forums with keywords "wingloading base" fro example, the topic of wingloading and canopy sizes in base have been discussed here pretty thoroughly. You'll find plenty of answers for example here : http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=927757;

Larger is better.. Wingload around 0,7 -0,75 seems to be whats recommended by most manufacturers.. I have a 240 and loading it 0,7. That works great, but my next will probably be a 260.

That answers all of my questions for now. Thanks for all the input and looking foward to entering the BASE community.

Billy

If your going to be doing alot of slider down work def get bottom skin inlets and big grab toggles. These things alone can save your life. I started out on a pin rig and really see no advantages to velcro, but that's just me.
Have fun and welcome to the party.

I'm 150 pounds with no gear and I jump a 220 so just like they said, around .7 is good.

Also, my two cents, get a pin rig!! There are so many more benfits than velcro! They are easier to pack also. I packed a velcro the other day and it was irritating. One of the major things I saw when looking at a pin rig was being told that pin tension can be an issue. Pin tension is not hard to get down. Took me two pack jobs to know what to do it correctly.

As Jimmy from Apex told me "Apex recommends pin rig for your first, second and third BASE rigs."

Coco

Damnit....just as I make up my mind, more info.

COCO, your in the UK right?

Can you list these?


How often have you packed a velcro rig, and how often a pin rig? Could it be that you just had more practice on the pin rig? I have yet to meet a beginner that thinks pins are easier to close than velcro. Especially not once they start making sure they don't distort the packjob on closing.


What kind of range of objects and altitudes have you jumped? Do you know how to setup your pin tension for a sub 230 freefall, versus a terminal wingsuit jump? Can you put on a spectra closing loop?

Have you thought about all the different ways you can route a bridle? Does yours come out of the middle, or from the top? Every year at Bridge Day, at least three people are caught with a total mal because they didn't leave slack above the top pin.

You've done virtual groundcrew jumps already, right? Ever worried about your pin tension after you put on your rig and tightened your straps? Much less of an issue with velcro rigs.

I'm not saying that velcro is better than pin, but I'm curious how much exposure to and experience you have with different gear configurations.

Dude, give Johnny a call, he'll take good care of you.
~J

No, Virginia beach, VA Is in my profile.

So what gear are you looking at give us an update.

Coco

I'll reply to this when I get home. (530EST) I can't really have the board up for more than a few seconds, the boss is working behind me. Only when she leaves do I bring it up.

Coco

better yet, why not do woodpecker a favour and don't bother to post any more gear advice and opinions to this thread ?



woodpecker - gear sizing and selection is not something that should be decided based mainly on internet forum posts

you will find a lot of people with way too little experience posting all kinds of advice...

when someone with many hundreds of basejumps on loads of different gear posts their advice and opinions on gear - pay attention

when someone with 15 base jumps in 1.5 years (according to their profile) posts 3 of the 10 replies you have received so far - you have to wonder...

your mentor is actually the best place to get this advice, assuming you have a mentor and you have chosen one wisely.

some of Tom's articles on getting started covers how to choose one and why you need one

get some more skydives too, you'll be glad you did later

cya
sam

PS - I have over a hundred jumps with a velcro rig and almost double that on my pin rigs, but I'm not going to be posting gear advice because I know I don't have enough experience to.

That's a little harsh. I'm sure Coco is just trying to help. It is Woodpecker's repsonsibility to synch advice with experience levels, not Coco's.


That's nonsense and you know it. You have an opinion, and with that amount of jumps, given in the proper context, it can be very useful.

Advice is useful at any level of experience, but it depends on how you bring it. If Coco had said the following, it would have been different all together...

"I personally prefer pin-rigs, but that's based on only 15 BASE jumps. I've only once tried to pack a velcro rig and thought it to be harder than packing my pin rig. That is probably because I just haven't practiced it as much as the pin rig though. I talked to Jimmy at Apex and he mentioned that pin rigs are the way to go. That said, I'm aware there are many velcro proponents out there still, and they do offer some advantages. Research recommended."

Well, I was just gonna go through old emails and post all the stuff I was told (like by APEX, Tom, and other sources) I keep that stuff for future reference but I'll keep my mouth shut.

Coco

Just ignore 980...

This similarly inexperienced jumper is still interested in what you have to say.

That edition of my "First Rig" article is a little outdated. A more current copy can be found as a downloadable .pdf on my Personal Web Page, in the public folder (public folder download is down at the end of that mess of title links). Apologies for the disorganization of that page, it's just somewhere that I throw stuff up temporarily to link to.

I'd attach it to this post, but it exceeds the attachment limit for DZ.com.

If anyone wants me to email it to them, drop me a PM or email with an address where you can take a 150k attachment.

just for my own curiosity... could you or anyone throw up a picture of what that would look like?

it used to cross my mind, especially when packing quick in the dark for the next low banger... but i sat for a while dicking around with my rig and couldn't seem to "mess it up". i'm sure it can be done as you say... but it freaks me out that i still don't know what it might look like!!

~E

Basically, to create a total malfunciton, don't leave any slack above the pin. The PC tries to pull the bridle out of the (still closed) container, but can't, because the pin is still in place. The pin doesn't take any pressure, because the bridle is taking it first.

I'll try to snap some photos tomorrow.

edit for clarity ~TA

thanks tom, much appreciated!!

Apex solves this problem with "dummy velcro." 2 inch fold of velcro above the top pin. As they told me, "only a dummy could mess it up, hense the name...."

Coco

That's pretty much standard on all rigs where the manufacturers intended routing is out the top. Some manufacturers also put both patches of velcro directly on the bridle (so you have to fold them over against each other, which creates the needed slack). The problem is that people swap bridles around quite a bit. I've even seen several "dummies" who didn't know what that little patch of velcro was intended for.

On rigs where the intended routing is out the middle (like the Gargoyle), this is obviously a non-issue.


The problem is when people get a bridle from a rig that doesn't need the velcro (like a Gargoyle) and put it on a rig that does need it (like a DP).

Ahhhh, Well that’s kinda like using Toyota parts on a Ford. It may work but probably not be a good idea.

Good Analogy?

Edit to add: It might not be but its the first thing that popped into my head.

I suppose. It really does happen all the time, though. So you pretty much need to be armed against it by knowing what to look for. Even if it's not going to kill you, it may kill the guy who asks you for a gear check at the exit point (I've caught this problem 3 times at exit points--I've also had it caught on my own rig by a friend who was gear checking me).

That may be true, but if there is a really hot chick waiting for you and you need a car to get there and all you can do is put a Toyota part into your Ford, you're still gonna do it and bone the crap out of that hot chick.

Good Analogy...

So what gear are you looking at give us an update.

Coco
To get back on topic.....I'm still flipping the coin on velcro v/s pin but sticking with morpheus, so either the medusa or gargoyle.

Post opinions, advice here:

Canopies: Blackjack

Post opinions, advice here:

Thanks to tom for the "base gear" write up and all who posted.

~Billy~

out the middle? I have seen it on rigs such as the neo and some other russian rigs. Also have seen pics of the routing. I have always routed the Bridal out of the top on my Gargoyle and have never had issues. Could you please post your thoughts on the Pros and Cons of routing the bridal out the middle as opposed to the top?

---

woodpecker: I have a gargoyle and a BJ260 and absolutly love it. Packing is easy, easy to keep it symetrical, easy to close, and as an added bonus looks shit hot

---

any word on those pics?

id really like to see this.. im jumping a warlock, and couldnt engineer a total, but the idea scares me...

That’s a good point. And to answer your earlier question (or might have been Jaap’s), yes I do do a lot of phone ground crew jumps so I do check my gear very very carefully. I also have issues with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) checking so the chance of this happening to me is low. Not saying that it could never happen but I do check things pretty obsessively. If you don’t believe me ask Jvair. Hey Josh I’ll quote you, “Coco, its gonna work, stop fucking checking it!” But as I have been told by many people in BASE, that’s a good thing in our sport. Just takes me a little longer to gear up.

I have also on many different occasions and with different pin tensions, put on my gear to see what effect it would have on my pins once I was geared up. I would gear up and then take if off very carefully to see if there was any change. So far I haven’t noticed any problems so I’m not too worried about that issue when I jump by myself. The only time I could see this being an issue is if I was doing a static line on a very low jump with pre-tensioning. At the moment I am doing 600+ feet jumps so its not really a problem.


Jaap:

Dude, if it involves a hot chick, I’d do some Flintstones feet peddle BS to get there! Yaba Daba Do!

David,

If you do that, take it to the next level. Use a scale to see what the tension is. How about packing a tight packjob and put the rig on and get in a funky dearched position. Have a buddy use the scale to see what the pull tension is. Then try packing a "loose" packjob and arch and have your buddy check the pull tension.

I have readings as low as 2lbs on top/4lbs on bottom, and as high as 22 lbs in a dearched cat position.

Note that Avg pull tension on my packjobs are 8-10 lbs

BTW... 600ft? go lower.... JK Stay in ur comfy zone

Yea thats a good Idea, I'll work on doing that.

Dearched cat position??

Coco

dearch, like a cat about to go into water or about to hit the ground after a big jump

I just reread the article by Tom Aiello... truly a primer for the newbie, packed with tons on great information... I noticed that he has our old email address and web site...

we're now applied deceleration

www.applieddeceleration.com

Leading Edge BASE gear is now manufactured in our shop... basically, we needed to change the name when we actually incorporated.. the leading edge website is no longer active.

thanks,

Tom Stewart
Tom@applieddeceleration.com

I've updated my copy of the article, using the contact info on your web site. The next time it gets reposted on DZ.com, it'll show the changes, but I'm not in control of when it gets updated here.

As I said above, if anyone wants to read the current copy, drop me a line with an email address that can take 150k attachment and I'll send you the latest.

.

Also, my two cents, get a pin rig!! There are so many more benfits than velcro! They are easier to pack also.
__________________________________________________


still curious to hear all the benefits of pin vs velcro from your point of view.

how many jumps do you have on each?
what delays?
what gear configurations?

be safe

kleggo

I changed my mind. I'm gonna keep my mouth shut.....

Edited to add: Plus I don't remember most of the little stuff that I was told because there was tons of emails. I've got so many emails to go through to get all the little tid bits of info so it would take too long anyway. I'll stay on the side lines.

And thats time better spent jumping

tell me the bennefits on velcro towards pin(s)?

As far as i see
Pros on a pin:
I can deside exactly what pin tention i want before it pop open.

I can do flips whith out sh!tting my pants thinking if my velcro will undo

Pins are as easy to close as velcro,actualy i find it faster to close my pin rig than a velcro as on the velcro i want to be 100%sure that its all closed probaly all the way round.

As you can deside the tention on your loops/pins on a pin rig you can do what ever delay you want to(as long as you pack slider up or down for it)On a velcro i deafently wouldnt freefall low objects not even whith primed velcro,neither would i be happy to reach terminal or trying a wingsuit whit velcro.

im currius why you would preffere a velcroi rig towards a pin(s) rig?

Jaap your to funny in this tread dude... make your mind dude

For first gear i will deafently say
Pin(s) rig
vented canopy whith a light wingload
Helmet
Knee and albow pads
might a back protector(or just a danise jacket)
video cam to record the jumps

Personaly i think a velcro rig can be jumped and used safely if you know how to,most skydivers dont and as you´ll need to take care of different things on a velcro vs pin(s) you´ll be better set by the pin(s)

Main idea is to my knowledge that the bridle is better protected when routed through the middle, especially when tracking. That is also why the Gargoyle does not need a tucking pin cover flap as the Vertex2 for example. I would even suppose it is not ideal to route the bridle from the top with a Gargoyle when you are doing tracking jumps as there might be a danger of loosening the bridle and undoing the pin. Sure the flaps will take some load but I guess that is why Morpheus recommends routing through the middle.

But that is my own understanding, maybe other reasons are more important that I am not aware of.

Get Naked.
Get on the scale.
Read weight.
Add 100 to your weight [in US pounds :) ]
This is your all around canopy size.

Gonna jump easy landing sites (Perrine) or high winds, you may go down a size.

Gonna jump tight landing sites, hard (cement) landings, you may want to go up a size.

Test jump your new canopy, adjust size for the next 4 or 5 canopies you acquire.

Works out pretty good.

t

Your avatar....VHEMT...that's funny!

Im routing my bridel out from the middel on my Gargoyle i routed it out the top on my Vertex1.

I like the idea out the middel and never had an issue whith it.

I think I will try this on my next jump on my gargoyle after a few dry runs on the ground.

its not a bigoh actualy i thinkyoull like it soon as you have tryed it out.
It aint more dificult to close but you´ll need to think about it the first few times you do it he he.

Im not packed right now so i cant upload a pic,sorry

i think i have a pic at home of it being done on a Neo... will upload if i find it

It will be interesting to try, being that I close the top pin first to secure the nose...

i close top first aswell,no problem at all.

sweet, I am going to try this at home for sure.

thanks Faber