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Just out of curiosity, I would like to know what you think is a safe # of jumps to visit Moab.

I know jump #'s dont mean everything but my point is, more and more jumpers are coming to Moab with Very little experience.

Last month a guy come to Moab, 1st 'E', 6th BASE jump. He Broke his back and something else, can't rememberl He had NO business being in Moab.

I new jumper came to town, he just did his 1st jump course about a month ago, did 26 jumps and decided to go to Moab.

We were on the top of a very nice overhanging cliff, and he asked himself out loud, should I go stowed or hand held?

I asked him how many jumps he has? He said 26 jumps. I asked him if he new the recommended # of jumps to jump in Moab. He had no idea. I told him it was 50 and his eyes' widened. He said 'I think I'll go hand held'.

Oh, he had borrowed gear too.

I'm not picking on the persons, but I'm just trying to make a point.

He was a heads up kid, did 3 very nice jumps that day!

I want to spread the word around our BASE community that Moab is dangerous and you shouldn't be here if you don't have the experience.

We had 10 wall strikes in Moab in the past 2-3 months. Luckily, nothing really serious happened.

To all of you out there who have jumped in Moab, does 50 jumps sound like a good #?

When you visit Moab, please be current and have the right amount of experience!

After all, it's your life!

-

When I started jumping it was 50. I think that came from the IPBC requirement for entering the competition there.

Somewhere along the line it went down to 30 (I think that was a number set for participation in the Turkey Boogie).

I understand that the consensus (again, based on Turkey Boogie requirements) is moving back up closer to 50.

In all honesty, I think that doing some good object avoidance/canopy control practice jumps in Twin Falls is more important than total number of jumps. I've seen people with 200 jumps who I didn't think had a prayer of getting a 180 turned around, and I've seen people with 15 jumps who were practicing a bunch and probably had a better shot at it.

I was thinking about starting a different thread but this kind of goes with whats being said. If not Tom will move it.
While at the Turkey Boogie last month I noticed SEVERAL jumpers who needed to work on their deep brake settings. Cliffs are not the place to find out that they are not deep enough. Truth be told, it took a object strike for me to get serious about my deep brakes. It's not to be taken lightly!

this is the shit that will have the blm or whatever other "powers that be" (read: 'the man') taking a closer look at making what is almost certainly the greatest concentration of amazing, kick-ass BASE exit points on the planet, illegal.


Ironically, this is the same argument the 10-20-30-40-50+ jump wonders will use when they want to come to Moab and jump cliffs that are (literally and figuratively) over their head.

When will these people realize that it's not just about their life? Every BASE death effects ALL of us, whether it was our brother/sister or not, whether we recognize its repercussions right now or not.

THE JUMP NUMBER REQUIREMENTS ARE GUIDELINES, NOT ABSOLUTES! This applies to those getting into BASE as well as it does those BASE jumpers wanting to come to Moab. I feel silly feeling the need to explain this, but these GUIDELINES were established assuming that your 30-50 jumps weren't jumps that were hammered out in a week at the Idaho S or equivalent! Cliff Strike is a very real possibility in Moab--as evidenced by the many over the last few months! Cliffs are not soft. They hurt you. They break you. They can easily kill you, period. I seem to see/hear about more and more people who get into the sport too soon, throw themselves from a bridge a few times and decide to try their hand off the walls in Moab.

After one gets lucky enough to "walk" away from their wall strike/rescue/hospitalization in Moab, they go back to their home, probably far from Moab, not even realizing how their actions in the town might effect the locals, who are VESTED in the town. This doesn't apply to only wall strikes/injuries either. When you're in Moab, like it or not you represent BASE jumpers/jumping in general. Moab is one of the greatest places on earth, as most people who have been there would probably agree--respect it.

Don't be a Dick.

Sorry for the rant.
pope

As a 32-jump wonder who recently visited moab, I have to agree. In my 6 jumps there I gained alot of respect for the place. The area is probably the most beautiful place I've ever visited, and it has some breathtaking exit points, but it is not hard to see that its very unforgiving at the same time. I sat out on the last jump of the trip. I was completely satisfied with my journey up to that point and just didn't want to push my luck. I had experienced moab and was grateful for the time I had there, but I wanted to be more ready for it before I jumped there again.

I do plan on going there again, probably next summer, but not before getting my own gear with properly tuned brake settings and doing a shitload of object avoidance drills at twin falls first, and just getting to know my gear inside and out. Any other new jumpers who want to go to moab would be doing themselves a huge favor by doing the same. And you'll feel much better at the exit point, too

Hi Pope

This is a genuine observation/question and not intended at all to be a dig at anyone, and I certainly don't mean to bait you guys or cause ill feeling. I have the utmost respect for you all.
I just want you to know that before you read further.

In some way, do you not feel that this is partially a case of reaping what you have sown. Continuum and it's sequel showcased the site as a 'playground' and in a way made it all look quite (for want of a better term) 'sanitized'.

With it's emphasis on trancey music and aerials and cool road trips, it unfortunately gives the impression in a way that Moab is a place you just have to go and 'DO' after throwing a bunch of gainers and flippy do's off the perrine. Even the fruit salad section, and some of the little asides from the top (everyone's doing front loops) give the general vibe that it's a fun ,casual place to go and jump and experiment and try shit out and make fun videos in daylight.

There just doesn't seem to be any underlying message that it's a place you have to have a healthy respect for. You don't really see people sweating it at the exit point (it's all smiles and jokes)....in fact the one thing you just don't get from it is a sense of fear or foreboding or just plain old scariness.

I think the music is the main culprit (this applies to all base videos i have seen) but also the edit process removes a lot of the pre jump jitters and preparations and nerves so that you're presented with just one successful jump after another. Just a succession of 'no big deals' set to some cool music.

Have you ever shown non jumpers or skydivers the final edit and seen them watch in awe but noticed they don't really get that pure 'gut' danger factor but seem to get more of a 'wow' factor. Play them the raw footage though and it's nearly always a different matter. They hear the wind and the birds and the pre jump nerves and the feet shuffling towards the edge and their response is usually more...respectful. They get it more....and so their response is more "i don't know how you can do that" and less "that's so cool, i'd love to do that"

Like i said, this isn't actually directed specifically at Continuum as most BASE videos on the market employ the same devices and techniques.

So i guess my point is, it doesn't really surprise me that newbies are turning up off their FJC's and not displaying the healthy respect they ought to. It comes as no great shock to me at all that 30 jump novices are trying out gainers off a 350ft cliff with only one previous aerial off the potato bridge and it wouldn't shock me to learn that people with a dozen jumps are weighing up going stowed and are oblivious to the added dangers they are exposing themselves to by doing so.

I love BASE videos as much as the next man - in fact i love em more than most - but they do tend to skew what for many is the reality of jumping and present it instead in a sanitized and palettable form which turns real danger into real cool, and really lucky into really gnarly, and really sick (as in stupid) into really sick (as in rad).

Maybe BASE has become a victim of it's own marketing success and maybe it might take the inevitable fatality and resultant up-roar over legal sites to get it back to where it should be, which is a past time not to be taken lightly and without appropriate respect.

Does any of this make any sense to you.

with utmost respect.

ian

 I agree ....POPE is a bad influence on everyone and everything he has ever come into contact with...... I'm really glad he lives all the way across town !!!

I'm curious if you have seen The Ground is the Limit and what your opinions of that film were?

That's a big one that is Way important.(Proper break settings.) Along with what Tom is saying. About being able to Stop and Turn your Canopy around from all three angle. left, right side and strait back. FAST.
Another thing goes Right along with the Break Setting and Canopy Control is. I can not express this strong enough to people starting out. To be comfortable with is Getting Some Clearance Away from the Object when you Launch.
You defiantly need to be comfortable with taking a few steps @ a good pace/run and keeping a decent body position in FF. A cliff face is no place to go so head low it turns into your first front flip.
It does not matter if the Cliff is Over Hung. Just an extra 5 ft. of clearance could make all the difference in you being able to walk away.
.

You said "So i guess my point is, it doesn't really surprise me that newbies are turning up off their FJC's and not displaying the healthy respect they ought to."

Then it's up to the FJC Instructor or Mentor or who ever is teaching you how to jump to tell you all about Moab and other Exit points you might be thinking of. IF they dont know, then they shouldn't be teaching the course!

-

Hi Clint

Absolutely. Mentors and FJC's have a huge responsibility to explain some fundamental truths and suggest a sensible route of progression to their students, and although my experience of these courses is limited I believe that on the whole they do actually do this.

However, a student's exposure to this 'conservative' approach to base on their FJC is for a very short time scale and so it probably doesn't influence them as much as perhaps would be desirable.

I'm not suggesting that BASE DVD's are the source of all evil. They are not. I do think though that the prevailing vogue for showcasing 'COOL' over 'gritty reality' is having an effect on the expectations of newcomers to the sport (and i count myself amongst them). By snipping out the 'dull bits' and presenting 450 seemless, slick exits with technical aerials in 30minutes they distort what is actually quite a complex process; site evaluation, weather evaluation, ability evaluation, possible outcomes, outs, plan B's, landing patterns etc etc etc

Not wishing to labour (labor) the point, but one thing springs to mind which, for me anyway, illustrate the disparity between what we see on most DVD's/ BASE movies and the actual reality.

The first is quite simple. I've seen a fair chunk of footage of Jeb doing his thing and it has always impressed me. A few years ago in Norway i watched him prepare for one of his aerial spectaculars on the edge at Kjerag. I almost expected him to just stroll up and hop off i must admit, but the amount of time he took to prepare and visualise and go through his moves was truly quite an eye opener. Lots of eyes closed mental preparation, lots of check, double check, triple check his pc and pitch.
In the end i think people were almost tempted to go push him off cos it was taking so long. But that was a good thing. That was a slap of reality. A slice of the action that usually hits the proverbial cutting room floor cos it quite simply isn't cool. That was what people need to see to understand that to make these spectacular jumps look so good you need to practice and prepare and train and visualise.

This isn't coming across in many BASE movies and i feel that perhaps this is certainly a contributing factor in many low experience jumpers taking on jumps and sites which are far beyond their capabilities.

Tom i haven't seen the ground is the limit but have just placed an order for one. I look forward to seeing it.

ian

ps. Clint. With a name like yours you should have your own Private investigation firm. Brilliant.

... ?
see the message im replying to...

Continuum and C2 are documentaries. I doubt in any way they were meant to be instructional films.

...
...

..., I have seen super gungho first time jumpers, at the bridges and on A's, scared to death, when a day before they were bragging about how they were going to "huck a gainer" on their first jump. Its funny how they get quiet as they start climbing a ladder at 4am, or beg for a PCA off the potato. I think Base speaks for itself a lot of the time.

but your correct, there is a huge difference when i show my freinds raw footage and then something edited to weird trance music, in sequence. the respect is there for both occasions, but the raw footage gives them the reality,

No offense but seeing a video and working to reach a point of self-reliance are two completely seperate walks of life. Shit, I saw this video of this 12 year old kid doing a 80 foot long 900 on a snowboard. I've been riding for 10 years. Afterwords, the guy had bitches all around him. Can I go bust a 80 foot gap 900 and get the bitches? Nope. The video sure made it seem easy though.

Even hiking in utah can get you killed. Read about Michael Kelsey and his famed guidebooks. Utah is perhaps the most beautiful place on earth imho, but it is as dangerous as it is beautiful whether its hucking, hiking, riding or wheeling. It is rather easy to get hurt in the red stone land.

I guess I didn't get my point across with the section on Jimmy P. in Continuum II. In it, he described in pretty good detail (with some pretty grim, non-trancey music in the background I might add) about how dangerous Moab is/can be, and pretty much supported what I was saying in my previous post with regards to jumpers coming to Moab with too little experience.


We made a concerted effort in Continuum II to keep the groms in check by making sure that it wasn't the happy-go-hucky kind of BASE movie that you describe above. And besides that, (and this goes for both Continuum AND Continuum II) I don't see what would give someone the impression that it is a place to "just have to go and DO" at all. I vaguely remember two scenes in the movie (C1) that showed a group of people carrying out an injured jumper, another hitting a tree... (BTW--if you want to see someone 'sweating it out' on the exit point, check out the Bridge Day 2004 and 2005 DVDs! Not Moab, I know, but good sweaties.

Anyhow, I know your post wasn't specifically aimed at the Continuum Series, but I just have a little bit of extra knowledge about these productions because I've seen them a couple of times. There are a shit ton of kick ass BASE videos on the market, and more coming out every month, and each of them shows a different view on BASE. My suggestion (not meant in a sarcastic or derogatory way at all) is to put a DVD on the market that shows BASE the way you see it, and present it as you think it needs to be presented, and see how it does... I for one would buy it to see your vision. And point taken on the "reap what you sow" comment, but I think it's an inevitable, and necessary part of the sport's evolution.



I see where your coming from, and agree up to a certain degree, but this point could only be argued on a case-by-case basis, IMHO.


Me neither, but I'd love it if BASE jumpers could stand together enough to get it into the over-ambitious grom's head that just because they survived their last jump doesn't mean they'll survive their next one. Stack the odds in your favor by making the right choices in learning, gear, and object choice (as a start), and you have a better chance of survival.


Welcome to the wonderful world of film/video. Isn't it cool??

Utmost respect back atcha Ian,
cheers,
pope

'And that's the....

"...The second time i got crabs...

SUPER TROOPERS!!

-

"the second time..."

in fact, a girl ACTUALY SAID THIS TO ME.
I rolled out of bed at 4am, i had to get some water i was laughing so hard.

But it is in sooper troopers. A wonderul Film

 
I didn't quote, cause you probably read the other messages by now.

kleggo has comments I agree with.

I don't "think is a safe # of jumps to visit Moab."
Because there is no safe jump to be had there. I do think we are seeing a lot more ill-prepared people coming to jump, numbers achieved or not. Some ill advised jump procedures are also being followed there that are causing some problems -- some people are getting away with them and some aren't.

At Moab you got a 50-50 chance. 1. it all goes ok.
2. You have a problem.

Now you have another 50-50 chance. You fix the problem or you don't.

Fixing that problem requires awareness of the situation, not staring at the upcoming wall in amazement. Sometimes we can pull it out, sometimes we can't.

I don't mean any of this to demean any individual or group of jumpers, hell it could happen to me next time too, and I don't have a "safe number of jumps" to go to Moab.

Sorry for the ramble, I had a point to begin with. [More Jack Daniels Sir?]


t

Hi Folks,... you know what the problem with videos in BASE or swooping is?
The fast forward button on the remote!!
We see it on the reaktion on the peopels faces , doesnt matter if they are non-basers or inexpirienced jumpers that they didnt get it when something happening on the screen.
"ohhh, that was cool..." and frases like that...
they dont think about it...and when someone make a statment like Jimmy in C2 then they say "boring, give me the remote"...
most of them see only the entertainment and the cool pictures.
the viewer have no awareness for the danger and thinks "there i wanna go and do some Gainers like this guys"
its not the fault of the editor...and the funky miusic
its the fault of the Bridge-jumpers that think " an E is a BASE-jump like every other"...

"am I my brothers keeper?"...no
but everybody shoud start thinking and say:" I will not be the reason why the site i was jumping was closed because i fucked up"

I don't think greater jump numbers are going to decrease the incidents or near incidents in BASE jumping. How many of these recent cliffs strikes were by jumpers with over 100 jumps? over 50?

I think education is the only mechanism that will have a direct impact. Someone who has been taught and understands the inherent danger of jumping off a rock is much more prepared mentally to deal with the issue if and when it is staring them in the face.

I'm one of the low jump number people who fall into your discussion. I currently have 24 jumps(6 S's, 14 E's, 3 A's, and an O). Of the objects I've jumped I've only been off 4 more than once. Almost every jump has been a new object, and I'm still scared every time. That fear makes me more cautious and instills a desire to be better prepared.

As someone else mentioned, I don't think jump numbers are the best measure. I think there needs to be conversations between the people considering the jump and the people with more experience on the object. If the person still wants to jump they're going to jump, but at least the conversation was had. And it probably made a difference. That may be part of the problem, people don't feel the conversation will make a difference.

New jumpers don't just come to Moab, find an exit point, and jump. They talk to people about where the exit points are, how to access them, how high they are, etc. So there is an opportunity to have these conversations.

Telling someone "You don't have 50 jumps, you can't jump here!" isn't going to work anyway. After all this is still a very renegade sport!

Quote: "New jumpers don't just come to Moab, find an exit point, and jump. They talk to people about where the exit points are, how to access them, how high they are, etc. So there is an opportunity to have these conversations.

Telling someone "You don't have 50 jumps, you can't jump here!" isn't going to work anyway. After all this is still a very renegade sport!"
_________________________________________________
Don't call us when you get to Moab if you don't have the experience, we don't want to scrape you off the wall.

Perfect sinario, Fly to Salt Lake City, Go to TF for a few days to get current, drive to Moab, do your jumps, fly out of SLC.

Like I said, jump #'s dont' mean shit.

Your right, people just don't go to Moab, find a jump, hike to it, and jump off. What do they do.

They call Apex/Skydive Moab or Slickrock and say, we are here in Moab, we dont have an 'E' yet, we have 16 jumps. Can you take us to Tombstone and show us some other jumps?

We get this call all the time. What would you do?
It's easy to say, let's go but we also work for a living and can't play all the time. And jumpers always expect you to drop what your doing and come jump with them. Ok, I'll stop working for several hours, show you a jump, and then get back to work. In those hours of playing, we just lost $200 in revenue.

If people really want to make Moab a safe experience and want to know where some exit points are, hire Apex or Skydive Moab as a guide for the day. It's $200 a day. This includes, showing you 3 exit points that day and how to get up them. We'll explain everything about the jump. Not just some words from other jumpers saying, it's 400', 2 sec delay, nice landing area, you'll be fine. Can't miss the exit point.



-
Clint

 

Your thumbnail, of you and Jessie doing a 2 way, I have that same picture. Actually 4 shots in a row.

What is your email address. or PM me.

"it's 400', 2 sec delay, nice landing area, you'll be fine. Can't miss the exit point. "

sounds like my first trip to moab...

actualy, word for word.

Those are some very good points, Clint. Now for $200 bucks, how many jumps do I need to have? Because that's what's really important. How many jumps must a person have before you feel comfortable taking them around Moab, for free or otherwise?

Around 50 BASE jumps. And that's around, again jump #'s isn't everything. Confidence, experience and being current means alot.

It's different for every single person. Someone with 50 BASE jumps and 120 skydives or someone with 50 BASE jumps and 3000 skydives.

You should be experienced enough and current too when you visit Moab. You don't have to be but it's nice. You can tell if someone knows what they are talking about or if they are full of it and dont' have a clue.

I've walked down with this one guy a year ago, had 40ish BASE jumps and 200skydives, first 'E'.

The whole way up, I was asking the usual questions when taking people to 'Tom_ston_ for their 1st 'E'. He had no business being there. Couldn't answer the questions. So I told him he wasn't ready and I wasn't comfortable letting him jump.

If you show up here with 30 jumps, havent' jumped in 6 months, do you think that is smart, in Moab?

If you and some friends show up, and we are all at work and they don't know anyone, dont know any exit points but want to jump.

What do you think they do or what do you think they've been told to do when they get to Moab? Call Apex, Clint, Shelley, Matt they will show you around.
We all work 7 days a week.

None of us have a problem going out with jumpers anytime when we are not working.

It just seems that the 'newer' jumpers are all coming out here and trying to get their 'E' with under 25-30 jumps. Sure they jumped at the bridge and were current but haven't don the drills because it's a bridge.

THey might have practiced object avoidance but it's a bridge, no REAL SENSE of URGENCY. No wall in your face.

IE: 2 weeks ago, jumper came out, super overhung, best in moab, maybe. Anyway, had a 90 right and pulled left rear riser down about 6-8", and it didn't turn. Then went to toggles, no problem at all.

We asked him why he didn't turn completely with risers. He said the canopy wasn't turning. He pulled only 6-8" and for only 2 seconds, which really isn't that much if you think about it. I pull 1.5-2 feet if I'm heading towards a nasty wall that wants to kill me!!!

Food for thought.

What are the questions you'd ask?

The questions to which you'd find answers if you had taken a first jump course, like I recommended...

I'm hoping to get to one this spring.

Just curious.

I was on a jump the other day where you get considerable amount of time under canopy from the exit point to the landing area. Anyway, I flew most of the way on my rears and while my monster of a boat BASE canopies are big to begin with, it's true that in order to get the canopy turning and turning fast, you need to really pull down on your rears. My canopy would hardly be turning if I only pulled 6-8 inches.

Not that I would know what the wall looks like (knock on wood), but it's good to know what sort of canopy control inputs work and which ones don't.

Awesome, I'm glad to hear it.

 
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In Reply To
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...BASE videos...do tend to skew what for many is the reality of jumping and present it instead in a sanitized and palettable form which turns real danger into real cool...

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I'm curious if you have seen The Ground is the Limit and what your opinions of that film were?

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Or better yet, the original "Rage". In many scenes there's no music, just alot of footage that depicts the real deal. The scenes from San Fran or other night time jumps they do paint a realistic picture of the seriousness of BASE. It's the first video I ever saw and I was freaked out by the idea that I was still interested in doing this shit.

And for the record Sabre210, I know you're not saying that all BASE videos portray the "it's all good" and fun side of the sport.

Cheers,

J.P.

I have seen rage. It's one of my favourite BASE jumping videos out there. Even now.

Just to be clear, I haven't got a problem with BASE movies that have music all over them. I really like Continuum I and II (i bought the K&D sessions because of it), I love 1st and 2nd BASE because of the music. I love Dead Air Dummies (but i know the gang so i'm biased of course)

I just believe that using music in BASE videos, and by editing the footage in a certain 'music video' way steers the viewer into very specific emotional places, which by it's very nature means they are being manipulated or distracted, and that could mean they fail to appreciate the reality, the gravity, the very real dangers of jumping at certain sites and attempting certain types of jumps like aerials, tards/ roll overs, multi ways.

With regards this thread I was wondering if the net result of so many of these videos/streaming mpegs is to create a culture within which new jumpers mistakenly under-estimate the complexity, difficulty and dangers inherent in BASE jumping.

Just a thought that could partly explain why both Clint and Pope are finding an increasing number of ill equiped jumpers turning up at what are IMHO the most dangerous jumps you can do (short delay cliffs).

ian

I just got some cliff skydiving gear! How do you get to Moab? Could you take me Calvin?

Yeah! Some guy told me about this great cliff, just over 200 feet! I will pack your chute for you if you want!

I don't know if the people turning up at Moab to jump can be attributed to BASE videos. It is the only other place where you can jump legally.

I have jumped a big cliff earlier than recommended but Moab, I will visit and watch others jump on my first visit(when I have quite a few BASE jumps first).

Kris.

I think that is a good number, but you really don't know if they're telling you the truth or have the knowledge to make the jump until you talk to them. I don't want to encourage regulation, but I do know there are some people jumping some stuff that they probably shouldn't be.

One such jumper after going off Toomy told me that it wasn't a very bright idea and they didn't plan on doing it again until they get some more experience.

Another thing that sometimes gets overlooked is the cleanup... Who would have gotten the canopy off of MG if not Jimmy. I'm sure Jimmy felt some motivation to get it down since it was his boogie, but what if it happened to someone on an off weekend venturing out with there friends?

There are actually quite a few places in the Southwest US where you can jump cliffs like that legally. It's just that everyone knows about Moab. Partly that may be because of the videos, but the history there is much older than that, and includes the presence of a BASE gear manufacturer, and, even before that, a series of organized BASE competitions.

Basically, the Moab secret is out, and there's no going back. There are plenty of other secrets that aren't out yet, though.