Basejumper.com - archive

Sorry to say number 91 has been posted . . .

http://www.basefatalities.info/

NickD
BASE 194

Blue skies. And condolences to family and friends.

It's weird to reflect on the different things that can happen with roughly similar incidents. I know a guy who struck a wire, hung up, and was rescued uninjured by other jumpers, another guy who ended up on national television with injuries, and yet another who made the last big leap. And no way to predict which it would be, in which case.

i still want to jump.

RIP

I was going to ask whether this was the first fatality attributed to a wire strike. I personally know three (maybe four?) people who have had wire strikes and had lucky escapes and there have been several more publicised by the media that were not fatal. WHen I discussed a wire strike with my friend, we remarked how lucky he was to have got away with it (apart from the trashed gear). I was surprised that of all the wire strikes I'd head of, none had been fatal, due to the seriousness of the situation. I started to wonder if it was one of the more forgiving forms of strike?

Looking back at the list, I now see that there is one fatality attributed; #1. Since that was nearly 25 years ago, did the equipment used in that jump have a greater bearing on the outcome of the wire strike?

BSBD

was this wire strike under canopy or free falling ?

Fly free brother

B.S.B.D.

Fly free! Sympathy and compassion to the family and friends.

Siberia! Wow...

Peace,
K

My heart goes out to those that were close, may you find comfort......BSBD

 
Yeah,

Fly free in the wind ...

BSBD ....

Now you are truely free... RIP. Sympathy to the loved ones you left behind.

What I'd like to know is: what's the proportion of wire strikes due to obscurity. That is, are those strikes mostly simply due to offheading, or would most of them have been avoided if the jump had been carried out in daylight?

My concern come from the fact that I've been flying through the wires a couple of times after offheadings. At the time, it seemed safe to me since I could see what I was doing. On the other hand, I've been jumping only once a wired A in obscurity, had an offheading, and didn't feel confortable AT ALL, 'coz I could see where the thing was... even knowing I had much clearance, after a 12" track.

To make it simple: should we consider guy wires dangerous in themselves, or are they dangerous in certain circumstances...

BTW, do anybody know more about this one? Night/day, winds, etc...?

dude you really need to work on your tracking skills.
twelve inches really isn't that far. if you push really really hard you can probably get almost 12" from the tower without tracking at all.

i've made a couple of jumps from guyed towers in the "dark". just because it is night time doesn't mean you can't seen anything. after half an hour climbing around in the dark you can see quite well. especially if there is any moon light. better still when there is lots of snow! ah... i miss being on the steel in -20C.... happy days...


even if you can't see the wires themselves, you should have a good idea of where they are based on where the tower and other objects on the ground are.

Your question is almost like saying/asking - "I have had a few building strikes, should I consider buildings dangerous"?

Reality is, if you keep flying through the wires and you are not intentionally going there, eventually you'll fire the bullet.

Worry about your heading control first and the fact that you are unintentionally going there.

r.e. your question about obscurity. If you cannot see where you are going, you do have greater chance of being an incident statistic. Think about normal night jumping safety. You will need this and more on your antenna BASE jumps.

One thing I do is make sure I know where the wires are, then I choose fixed features/locations/objects either in the distance or on the ground to give me a clearer picture of where the wires are. When I jump, my job is to do EVERYTHING in my power to avoid the wires.


ABSOLUTELY YES. They are a fixed object!!!!!!! Parachutists and the object they leap off DO NOT mix.

You know, there are people in some other places who speak some other languages, and some signs may have some different meanings...

...which also means that a joke may get lost in the translation.

rl

I think you've misunderstood what i was saying. I've been reporting two cases of O/H, which were controlled by riser inputs, and THEN was made the decision of flying the canopy between two wires, that I could SEE. this on particular objects whose clearance between wires allows that. The purpose was to highlight the difference it makes between night/day jump.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Anyway, you didn't answer the question.

Yo!

Details have been posted.

200m antenna, 4 sets of guy wires (90 degree sectors). Guy wire strike. The wire cut through the riser on one side and lines on another, resulting in 100m fall.

bsbd!

Yuri.

Detailed report from siberian crew and photo of the jumper have been posted on Nick's mail.

To add;

Apparently the line and riser failure occured as a result of friction with the cable after the jumper began sliding down the guy wire.

that sucks...condolences to all involved.

I'm sorry. I didn't realise it was against the law to reply to or answer specific parts of internet posts without answering the original question of the post.

The above tells me that the decision to fly between the wires was made AFTER deployment and in response to the off heading. Hence my post is totally relevant in that heading correction is the KEY, MOST IMPORTANT, MAJOR factor in the above scenario. If the heading is controlled, then you will not be flying between the wires and the issue becomes less relevant.

Now, if you intentionally decided to fly between the wires prior to exiting, then it is a different story. That requires good flying skills. If you are intending to "fly the wires", you should have lots of vertical space between the wires or the angle of the wires should be close to your glide ratio. Can I suggest some CRW training to teach a bit of canopy relative skills? Anyway, have fun, don't mess up.

Now, to your original question......


Accurate statistics would be hard to come by. I think there are several reasons for wire strikes:
- off headings
- not seeing the wires clearly in flight and hitting them (especially in conditions such as complete darkness or if you have the sun in your eyes)
- not even recognising the wire hazard in the first place (I have actually heard of a jump where a person clipped a wire - when quizzed on landing, he didn't even realise there was one there!!! There have also beed cases where beginners have jumped four wire towers but believed that every tower is a three wire tower - hence they have not allowed for the fact that there is only 90 degrees of clearance instead of 120 degrees).
- intentional fly throughs but poorly estimating the flight path and/or clearance of the canopy between the wires.
- and one of the biggest reasons? . . . not understanding wind direction. strength, and affect on canopy flight causing a parachutist to back into support wires or the tower itself. This includes jumping in the into wind sector, and on bigger towers where there was inadequate separation from the object in freefall and being pushed into the wires due to a strong crosswind component.


Dangerous? YES. They are things you can hit. Anything you can hit is no good in BASE jumping. It should be part of your risk management, pre-jump planning, or whatever you want to call it, to allow for things you can hit. And parachutes don't like it when you disturb there ability to maintain pressurisation (i.e. your alter their airfoil characteristics and fluid flow around them).

The risk factor increases if:
- you can't see them
- you don't know they are there, or how many, or how far apart
- your heading control is poor (slow, ineffective)
- your ability to read, and allow for various wind conditions is insufficient
- etc.

Anyway, fab777, I am not directing this at you personally, its just potential learning information. And I am more than happy to be corrected if my opinions above are incorrect. Just give me the facts and data.

All the best.

Yep. Some locals objects can be described this way. 600', 3 wires sets, only 2 wires per set. Jumpable by daytime...


Am already been planning that...

Anyway, I think that, considering the number of jumps being made, things can be looked at in a statistical way, when it comes to safety. Hence my wondering for some statistical answer.

Ironically, I've been growing more and more afraid of guy wires for the last times, and this misfortune won't help me to feel more confident...

Many guy wire strikes are non-fatal, so it can be very hard to gather statistical data.

Just a short while ago was the first time I heard a report of a freefall guy wire strike, but the incident took place some time ago. Word of non-fatal incididents necessarily travels slow because of jumpers desire to maintain a low profile.

Every busted leg tells a story and we probably miss some lessons by not keeping better track of non-fatal accidents. When it was smaller the BASE community is a harder place to go unnoticed when you pranged and some of the BASE magazines of the day printed those as accident reports complete with conclusions.

The un-intended results are sometimes heated exchanges when the injured jumper writes the editor saying, "You f-ing bonehead! You got that all wrong!!! I'm got more jumps then you, you f-ing moron, and another thing you f-ing . . ."

It "was" somebody second guessing someone else and it didn't work. It's a lesson I keep in mind when writing the fatality reports and I sweat being correct as possible. But, I'm sure when I get to heaven some BASE jumpers will be waiting for me with, "You f-ing . . . bonehead!!!" So when the time came I didn't print accident reports in the Fixed Object Journal unless the injured jumper wrote the piece, or at least someone who was there did.

I remember at least two non-fatal wire strikes, but I think there's been more. In one the jumper entangled the guy wire and slid down until the canopy burned through and dropped him into a water channel. The other jumper still on top said, "It was a million to one moon shot."

NickD
BASE 194

I think we should build a real experience return system for this kind of things. Via a dedicated website, maybe?

Dropzone.com maintains an incident database for skydiving. I wonder if we could convince Sangiro to replicate the engine and create one for BASE?

I think I'd prefer to see something linked to the List, though, rather than to DZ.com.

Even then, we're only going to get a sampling of the accidents.

it needs to be well guarded...there are a lot of sharks who lurk here who will hang us with the info.

At a recent legal event in Hungary, I had the opportunity to take a short delay (the locals wouldn't allow a slider-up jump through the wires until a slider-down jump above the wires was executed first) on a Blaw-Knox style tower, which gave me the chnace to fly around and through the guy wires in broad daylight. Doing this with a wide, slider off toggle arrangement, was an education, completely different to any Canopy Relative Work I have previously undertaken. I'm not sure what benefit it would be due to the wide angle lens, but if anyone would like me to post the video, I would be more than willing to. My head was on a bigger swivel than when I was under canopy on any 100+ way that I've been on...

About flying between the wires -- looks not so easy here -- because that A is 1) SQUARE, 2) has 5 levels of wires -- 2 lower attached to one point on the ground and 3 upper... And unexpectedly short delay that means short separation from the construction. And poor skills -- some 30 jumps.

RIP.

 
This may be graphic for some viewers, so please turn away if you get offended by blood and guts and constructive feedback given in a blunt manner!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Nick

I used to think the same r.e. political correctness and not offending anyone r.e. accidents. But then I used to get MANY calls from media after STUPID accidents, I used to get newbie jumpers demanding that their method of progression/learning was correct and mine was too slow, I have had friends of deceased jumpers abuse me for not looking after their mates (even though their mates would not listen to logic or sanity), I have had people say that they can't explain their offheadings and fifth accident in 6 months and that it is just bad luck (on their 40th jump doing aerials on lower objects with no out landing areas, etc), I have been told by "senior/experienced jumpers that I am detrimental to the sport because I tell people the realities of poor risk management and trying too much too soon, . . . . . .

In a nutshell, people can't be told nicely that they are being idiots or doign the wrong thing and that they should temper their enthusiasm for rapid advancement with some common sense and logical/sequential skill development. So you have to tell them bluntly!!! Quite frankly, I have seen too many mangled bodies, too many burned sites, increased security, and too many penalty increases due to idiotic behaviour that some parts of the BASE community want to put down to just bad lack. BULLSHIT - people have to occassionally accept that a certain percentage of incidents and accidents are due to poor management and a total disregard for safety, common sense, and lack of respect for the sport.

Any professional person / organisation knows that accident investigations generally lead to information/systems/procedures/equipment that can help protect the lives of future participants in the sport. I fully accept that individuals may want to remain anonymous or private and to a certain extent I accept that as their right. We (including me), have done this in the past, and it is NOT productive..

Withholding information or chastising others for trying to advance our sport, share information, and basically save the lives of other BASE jumpers, is not fair. Not getting the facts of an incident fully correct may not be the ideal situation. But even a discussion of possibilities promotes advancement/progression, etc.

I support Nick's past practice of printing incident reports. I also believe that we should protect the rights of the individual in terms of anonymity, embarrasment, etc. But sharing the information is more important.

How to share? Incident reports to registered emails? People can access a database by secure logon? We could also have a tips and tricks site - if people have an incident, they could add learnings to a site dedicated to knowledge and skills (a site without gossip and stories), perhaps Jaap's BASE Wiki could deal with this.

Conclusion: the first step to overcoming a problem is to recognise that the problem exists. Whilst most real BASE jumpers are open minded and honest enough to fit into this category, we do have some jumpers that operate under the philosophy that "it's not my fault and it wont happen to me"!!!!