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Thanks for the information guys. So, deep brakes incase you have an off heading opening, the slower foward movement gives you time to steer away.

Say you have a 180 and you wanna steer away, would you use the rear risers, pop one toggle and turn leaving the other still set, or pop both toggles and turn?

Dale

edit for thread title ~TA

Opinions vary. I recommend you start a new thread if you want to discuss that. You'll find that it's a subject of much debate.

http://www.johnnyutah.com/risersortoggles.html

I haven't heard anyone recommend to pop only one toggle and not both.

Very nice information, thanks for the link.

Be sure to read this thread as well.

In the link given upboard, the author appears to misrepresent the opinion of at least one authority (Dwain Weston). Dwain's personal views are reproduced (from Dwain's posting on the subject) in the thread I linked.

You should also watch the video of Slim's Accident (you can see it in his memorial video here). Remember that this is video of probably the world's best and most current BASE jumper, at the top of his game, fumbling his toggle (and consequently suffering devastating injury). If you think that you can "for sure" grab your toggle better than Slim, I advise you to reconsider.

Definitely do a forum search here for these topics. You'll find a bunch of old threads with varying views. Reading them may help you form your own views on this question.

And now, we get a new thread to revive the age old debate.

Tom, do you know what kind of toggles Slim was using at the time ?

Regular LRT style toggles. Not Big Grabs. He later said that he though the Big Grabs might have helped him not to fumble.

results from 2 jumps in a row, same scenario with a Mojo. Jump 1: steer with one riser with both brakes stowed. Turn was not as fast as I wanted but ok. Jump 2: unstowed one brake and pulled it way down and things happened very slowly. Too slowly almost. One thing to add to the equation is that one can only do a quickdraw simultaneous brake release if the risers are not twisted or distorted from the opening direction. If this distortion happens, then one must choose which hand to go to which riser/toggle independently and then apply the opposite action to the other. I will never go for releasing one toggle over riser control again.
hope this helps.
take care,
space

Toggles = death.

Risers = Live to die another day.

I can't believe we are still arguing this . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Sorry for the trouble, I didn't mean to revive an old debate. I am trying to learn as much as possible from several sides of the spectrum :).

Thanks for the links, reading through em now.

Dale

I wish it were that easy... the only bulletproof answer is "hmm, it depends"

In particular, it depends on what exactly are you going to strike: an object in front of you or an object/ground below you. This roughly draws the line between risers and toggles.

Then again, if you are that close to the object and that far from the ground - why didn't you take it lower?

bsbd!

Yuri

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/...ion=file&id=2148

I agree! I'll say it again Slim's video! I'm going for risers!

That was you le roy!?

Based on a resent object strike I would have to say that toggles was the way to go. After having a 180 you realize that there is much less horizontal separation from you and the object than you would ever like to see. I popped both brakes immediately and stretched my right arm as high as I could and burried my left as low as i could while also giving all the harness input I could. This toggle turn also swung me out enough to plant a foot on the leg of the object to keep me from going through it and causing what would have been a very bad time. Easy grabs and hard toggle input is the way I'll do it again if that crap situation ever happens again. thanks for the artilce Brian

agree Yuri totally. 85% in toggles, 15% for the risers :)

OK you got to be trolling ? As this is a subject beat to death. & tacked-on to a 5-year old thread.

& Also. (while laughing my ass-off) . ?????
quote: ..." I popped both brakes immediately and stretched my right arm as high as I could and burried my left as low as i could while also giving all the harness input I could."

Did you word this statement right ? . LOL. If you are serious (and it can Not be) and not trolling ? then you indeed need to go back to square-1 and rethink all you think you know. Your technique used & it's outcome have NO Barring as to correct use of Toggle or Riser heading correction off a 180 .
Maybe? What I am thinking ? You must have been "Skydiving" , Had a shitty Track. and you had a close proximity opening next to another jumper opening, and this is ALL you could come-up with for Heading correction ? But you still collided ? (and that is your object Strike) Because that is what a Skydiver would do. Not a BASE jumper.
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I recently watched tgixxer hit the 500' tower he posted about above so I know he's not trolling. It was just the two of us jumping that dark, very foggy, and low-wind night. From the top, I saw him have a solid exit, take an appropriate delay, open with a full 180, and immediately start turning to avoid the strike before he disappeared into the fog, but I could tell he was going to hit it. I then heard the object strike and finally the canopy hitting the ground.

Given the 180, I don't think anything he would have done including pulling both risers or toggles would have fully prevented the strike in the low wind conditions on that object. He did a great job staying alive and getting his canopy turned as far as he did before he hit the tower, as flying into the middle of the steel lattice structure would have been very bad.

I eventually got up the nerve to jump anyway despite not being able to see much of anything, watching what I just did, assuming my friend was dead at the bottom, never having jumped that tower before, and not having made an illegal or night BASE jump in a year an a half due to a BASE arrest that was dismissed that morning. My jump went fine and tgixxer only got a few scrapes and bruises.

Slim was using standard skydive style toggles, not big grabs. IMHO and in Slim's big grabs would have made a big difference. I personally use toggles in the event of an off heading and every jump I go for my toggles like I have had a 180 and my life depends on it, generally my hands are flicking up onto the toggles as I start to be jerked up in the harness. When I first started I used risers on my third or so jump had an off heading and used a riser by the time I had turned off the object I was very low and moving fast....used toggles from then on, just be fast on them and use big grabs.

My view FWIW is to decide what I would go for if I had a 180 on that object and my hands go there whether its on-heading or off. Downside is you don't build muscle memory for one technique. On the plus side, I believe that there is a best course of action for each jump and I don't think you can play the 'toggles... unless I have a 180, then it's risers' game - By the time you've had the 180 and your hands are on your toggles its too late!

I see your point, but roughly in what situations would you use toggles and which risers

Typically - on a 250ft A with a tailwind, ground obstructions (compound fence, spikey things etc) and DBS, I would consider that conserving height would be more of an issue in the case of a 180 than object avoidance (which is still an issue, but the dbs and tailwind will buy you some time)... I would go for toggles.

But - a 350' sheer cliff where there is no tailwind and a shingle beach below, there should be more height to play with and an object strike would be my primary concern (unless you really smoke it!!)... in this case I would go for risers.

Most 180's I have seen (I have only had one myself), the canopy turns as it is extracted, at linestretch the jumper has no idea what the canopy is doing but the hands are already heading for risers or toggles. Pre-deciding risers is the only way that your hands will be on them the instant your body decides to follow the canopy....

Maybe not the right way to do it - but it makes me happy :)

hey sorry for not responding for a few weeks I got threw a major PC re-build. so I just now got around to getting back-on the troll in the base.com
Hey Sometimes you can do everything right and still hit something but the Technique that is said in the post that I commented too was not the right way to to try, to stay alive.
The posters discussion of which to go-for Toggle/Riser bla-bla.
So WTF ( He had a 180 ) So you guys Don't see anything wrong with this technique described and used ???? . Or am I just missing something ?
..." I popped both brakes immediately and stretched my right arm as high as I could and burried my left as low as i could while also giving all the harness input I could."
.

Ray, are you referring to the harness input?

Because the toggle action sounds reasonable
to me but harness input on a canopy with a
wing loading of .6 to .8 does about nothing.

I'm thinking Ray questions letting the one toggle all the way up. That is poor form for a flat turn. It will also promote drive, reducing the rational behind "deep brake settings." Realize a flat turn will keep the jumper underneath the canopy and thus will not "swing out."


i.e. prevent object strikes via:
tailwind
deep brake settings
flat turns
do not panic and overcontrol

optional:
slight braking to fly the parachute away from the object before initiating the turn.

I also suspect he turned the wrong way, but can't say for sure from his comments. typically, the mass of the jumper means bodies turn 30 degrees or more than parachutes. that means while the jumper looked at the object, the parachute was not. thus, the jumper executed a diving, driving turn, towards the object. a slight pull on the right toggle might thus result in the far less dramatic gentle, flat turn away from the object.

this stuff should be included in any FJC.

but I'm guessing here...
no need to believe me!

maybe it is just me ? but he is just leaving out a lot of detail in the statement that was made. I have done some 180 corrections facing tower structures using the Toggles & not Riser correction technique. It is a little more involved with detail than just popping the toggles raising your arms & slamming down one toggle to turn, also The ability to keep your wits and do harness input to one side is but just a Very VERY Minor addition to the equation. with slow results in the large canopies we use in BASE.
If you choose your Toggles for your correction. You got to pop the Toggles and then bury them to stop the forward momentum that all Canopeis have on the opening (opening surge). Then while you re still facing the object in a stopped position, you are not flying or have any forward movement. BUT You are burning-up Vert. altitude because you are going down. -OK- It is in this point of limbo where you are in a neutral like (stale) ( while falling strait down) ( Canopy starting to Backwards slide) & that is the point of technique where you then (chose which toggle) to let-up to let yourself do as flat a spin-Turn as possible and not pendulum to swing the body out from under.
The Riser Tech. IS the same basic thing when Turning from the 180, but the Toggle Technique is faster on the Turn-around because it stops the forward-opening slid/surge faster than Riser and also gives a faster flat rotation to the counter direction Flat spin-turn . Both work & I have done both on all of the base objects.
(i think) Most jumpers know & got it but just don't Post but I am suprised at a lot of Q's on the board. Guys it is a hard road to learn all this while BASE jumping & is way better to learn canopy Tech. like this on the DZ . Learn Flat-Turns, Riser Turn arounds, Toggle Flat spin-turn arounds & flying canopy backwards & then repeat day after day. Then have the real 180 . Shit the odds are Against you anyway when you are on top you game. Your just handicapping yourselves by not. If you are 'Properly CanopTtraining' on the DZ with a canopy (believe Me) you can & will scare the shit out of yourself when doing it right. but learning as you go in BASE is a hard road. Do it before you leave BD & Idaho and step-out to the hard objects.
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wwarpped, What would the optional slight braking do?

Slight braking would call for a rescue in many instances. Slight braking would have done a lot of nothing. Much more aggressive braking, then turn accordingly, is a much better idea.

----

Back to the point:
I don't really care how tgixxer missed flying directly into the tower. If his writing style fails to meet expectations, that's fine. He's a good jumper with quick reflexes. Whether or not he could have missed completely... I don't know. I've watched him jump plenty of times and not once did his reactions raise a question.

Perhaps his actions could have been something slightly different however not hesitating is often the key.

---

I'm going to provide an example of someone who did exactly the wrong thing yet he was not chastised in anyway by the 20 people who saw him do it. Why? I haven't a clue except he is considered a good jumper and is well liked. He's liked by you too Ray. No I won't say who did this. (he also doesn't post).

Rough Description: Not a real high cliff jump: Jumper does a very nice poised exit, waits approximately 1 1/2 seconds (2 is doable)and tossed the PC in a smooth manner. Opening resulted in a less than 180 but it was definitely pointed toward the solid wall of pain educing hardness. The result was hitting the cliff a few times before turning it around. There's more to the ending however it has nothing to do with failure to execute.

He had plenty of time to miss the cliff but tugging on the risers did approximately nothing. I stood there wondering why he wouldn't just fucking turn the thing and then bam... cliff strike. He reacted way too gently. Had he just pulled even 1 riser down much harder, he'd have spun the canopy away.

Coincidentally this was not his first cliff strike.

------------
Another consideration:

-It's amazing how much education a person can receive in a few seconds time.

----------

Another thought:

The harness input described was nothing more than body English that anyone would use that's trying to will a canopy to turn. There is nothing weird about turning your body the way you want the canopy to go, and leaning into the harness as a result.

----

If you're a riser person. Be wary of altitude and stalling.

If you're a toggle person. Set the toggles up the control line high enough to be able to stall the canopy on demand.

On both accounts, my opinion is to use an easy grab type toggle. If yours isn't, modify them or replace them.

Being a nerd and a pussy I did a bunch of these
before I even went to Idaho bridge for my FJC.

I found it useful to have my jump buddy, who is
a very experienced CRW Dog, to jump out right
after me and fly up next to me so I could use
his wing as a point of reference, sure not as
good as an object, but a whole lot safer.

what I meant was a slight additional amount of braking beyond the DBS. I thought I had made it clear that released brakes should never be raised significantly (and generate drive) until the canopy faces away from obstacles.

much will depend on where the DBS is actually set...

Ray may have said things better than I.


I will not encourage "aggressive braking" because the DBS should be near the stall point anyway. yanking it a further 6+ inches should only be done after trying it out when it is not critical. it probably will work for many, but will it work for all jumpers? with all wingloadings? with all DBS's?

I'm not that confident that someone won't screw up advice/comments. heck, it appears I did not communicate my thoughts that well to you...

So what you're saying is... get some experience flying a parachute. Got it


Yes I agree, Ray's last post was good.

In regard to harness input, i beg to differ somewhat. Yes, BASE canopies are bigger than skydiving ones, and yes, they'll react slower. The physics however, still applies.
Picture an aggressive harness input (if done properly) for sake of argument, as having one riser 4+" longer than the other. Follow the now-asymmetrical state of things up to your canopy. You are in essence, shifting one side lower than the other, without altering the shape of the wing. In order to visualize this, try thinking on an X,Y,Z axis basis. Instead of being dead center under canopy, you are moving yourself to one side. The larger the wing, the less you're off-center. On a larger canopy, the effect isn't as noticeable until you add additional input, whether on a riser or toggles.
Also, this harness input is something probably 90% of people do anyway without even realizing they're doing it. Whether object avoidance, or leaning into a turn, most people do it.
Next time you are setting up for a turn, put aggressive input into the turn side and see if you can't notice a difference.

I can steer my 120 loaded at 1.86 with my hips.
Never been able to get wings sized 285 - 420 to
respond to weight shift but hey I dig the concept.

not directed specifically at hookit...

when jumpers release their brakes dramatically, the canopy surges forward. many use the term "dive," but I don't like it.

as the canopy accelerates forward, it can not quickly change the momentum of the jumper. it thus pivots around the jumper, rotating at the connection points. and yes, to a jumper it appears to dive.

once the jumper's body starts moving, it must pendulum about the canopy, until a balance is reached. swinging forward while facing an object sounds painful.

to minimize the pendulum effect, follow Johnny U's suggested technique to clear the brakes (roughly, aggressively lower your hands until they reach a point just beyond the DBS to ensure the white loop clears the cats eye), and then minimize toggle movements.

Practice both going for your toggles and your risers so when you have to you won't hesitate. I like to go for my toggles but if shit hits the fan you aren't caught mechanically doing it only one way. I had a 180 a few years back on a 300' antenna with a line twist, canopy flying at the antenna; I instinctually went for the rear riser above the line twist with my body facing away from the antenna and pulled with all I had to turn the canopy away from hitting the antenna luckily I got it turn around. No chance there to go for toggles, LOL...

There are three things that have kept me from hitting a couple of cliffs, risers, risers, risers. I dont really care about all this flat turn shit, you grab what ever you can to make your parachute fly away from whatever you jumped off of. Remember kids dont run into thing after you jump off them, or you will end up with a name Bridge Strike.

I DONT no whoooo yur talking bout.

butt it rewinds me of JC C. OF pd factory fame.

he did that in MOAB. BUsted his ankle awhile back.

good canOPEE pil0t but stil' managed to bust up his ankle on a 180 dill e 0H!

you probably whernt talkin bout him dough?

..." Back to the point:
I don't really care how tgixxer missed flying directly into the tower. If his writing style fails to meet expectations, that's fine. He's a good jumper with quick reflexes. Whether or not he could have missed completely... I don't know. I've watched him jump plenty of times and not once did his reactions raise a question."

"Perhaps his actions could have been something slightly different however not hesitating is often the key."
.

There are 2 kinds of BASE jumpers. BASE jumpers that Have hit objects & there are BASE jumpers that will . Don't know if the guy is a good jumper or not ? Not trying to be to big a dick either but in the explanation given (write in post)
..." I popped both brakes immediately and stretched my right arm as high as I could and burried my left as low as i could while also giving all the harness input I could."

It just reads like the info that is critical for proper 180 turn around was left out. Reads as if he just un-stowed & then left one arm up & slammed one Toggle down and tried shift his weight in the saddle for the turn around ?
So Info was just left out on purpose ? or was left out because it was not used in his technique ?
The written explanation reads like the canopy was never stopped in the opening surge on the Toggle unstowing before the turn was initiated ? Sorry I am just calling it as I read it.

.

OK. This is the ancient BASE technique when we were using 220's for the most part, in skydiving rigs back in the eighties. And it worked for many, as 180's were very common. Hell, we used to just toss a monster 52 inch PI drogue on for a pilot chute and pack in a bag..so you guess what happened...

You can feel a 180 coming when inflation starts. So we used to have hands on the risers right off the bat.

We would grab both risers and yank like hell to stall away, then release one of the risers to slowly turn. I did this once on a 350 foot B. There was only one brake setting, of course, but you do a chinup on both risers and you will go backwards stalling. Now you WILL lose altitude a lot faster stalling and then basically turning while stalling.

No way did we ever pop a toggle or two. Hell, there was no TIME to fumble with toggles. You try to turn away with toggles and your body will swing way out there and smack..there ya go. I dunno. It used to be a big problem back then, and that was the technique.

Hitting an object can happen so fast that you have no chance, though. On low stuff, we used to jump really hard away on exit. I don't see that much nowadays. It would put you a lot farther away.

Take any advice at your own risk. BITD, there were a lot of strikes coming out of a very small jumper population. SURELY this horse has been beaten to death.

Ya beaten to death for sure on the useless argument of what is better & safer Riser or Toggle for the 180 turnaround, That is a waist as that both work (IF you practiced and actually Know) what each really are. But I am starting to think that there are some out jumping that really don't know the fine mechanics of either. ( NOT just picking on tgixxer ) who drug this old Thread up either. I'm not really trying to bust anybody ball but there is a micro particle of twisted curiosity, tainted with genuine concern that keeps me typing on the dead horse.
.

Some comments another old school jumper who once had a cliff strike:

The visual overload / shock of seeing a fast approaching wall filling your field of view - hardly surprising people fumble toggles or seem slow to react.

On jumps after my strike I stopped reaching for toggles / risers until I was pulled upright looking at the canopy and risers. I would keep my hands free, ready prepared to grab whatever I needed to sort out the canopy heading. Something along the lines of looking at an emergency handle before you grab it. I felt this gave me an edge.

A long run of on-heading openings can lull you into a false sense of security. The occasional off-heading opening keeps you sharp and gives you a chance to work on your correction skills.

Good luck, whatever you choose to do.

Yes,

I got into the habit of having my hands on my risers as they lifted out. You should be able to feel it going 180 before it even inflates fully, so you can turn that sucker around fast. I have some old video of me doing this. When you stall back and then release one riser, the old canopies would continue stalling on one side of the canopy while the other side stayed inflated. Fumbling for toggles would have been useless, because they were so small.

Danger is that you lose altitude very fast, but I have done it and then landed pretty hard with a PLF from a 300 foot object over land.

I have also read the method of grabbing both toggles and yanking them down. This is a way superior method..Johnny Utah's. But you damn sure better not miss a toggle. Risers are big fat suckers that you cannot miss. A lot of this has to do with the old canopies vs. the big ones used today.

I also have a very poor copy of John Hoover flying through the glass on a building strike. It was just bad luck. Happened in a micro second and he hit hard. Pretty funny story if you ever heard him tell it.

Man, I 180'd a lot. It got to be no big deal. We were using our skydiving mains..pretty much all 220 7 cells, although I did my first on an old 5 cell. Before 7 cells were even invented. That sucker landed HARD.

I am only posting on this thread because per capita there were way more 180's and building strikes back then that a lot of people went through it.