Basejumper.com - archive

Ok... so...
OTHER than being able to clear a line over, and feeling nice and pretty when your flying with toggles in hand, is there any other reasons to leave brake lines out of the rings for slider off?

I ask because i blew a toggle on a "black diamond" jump the other day and if it wasnt for some serious -pull it out of my arse- jedi canopy flying, (and a little water) i would not be walking, for sure. It was the most technical jump i had ever done, and i blew a toggle.

its just, on a slider off jump, if your in a canyon almost as tall as the Royal Gorge, half as wide, with a landing area the size of a parking space, NO outs, its REALLY F***** NICE TO HAVE TOGGLES!

ps-my wing loading is pretty high, im 155lbs under a 220, (im ordering a 260, this week)

so, please, i would love to hear the other reasons, because im very close to just leaving the lines in there for a few slider off jumps and putting the WLO toggles on.

or quit base entirly and rope jump for the duration.
noooo, i couldnt do that...
cheers

The only way to blow a toggle on slider down/removed is improper rigging (unless the line or the loop break of course).

Learn this and use it: LRT.

edit for spelling

Or a unexpected faulty toggle design.

It's a matter of degrees of hurt. I'd rather drop the remaining toggle and "jedi" myself to landing rather than spin in with a line over.

The only thing in BASE that can claim more saves than the line over modification are John Dragan's boats at Bridge Day . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I completly agree that i may have stowed it wrong,

(however, i dont think i did)

that said, i disagree on that being the only way could happen.

line twists? risers sliding against each other? riser slap, the toggle is caught on a camera or a lip ring as it brushes by and blows the line? a reach and -almost-miss?

and hell, poor rigging? if one screws up stowing, the toggle will be there even if it blows.

My question was what are the other reasons for leaving them out of the rings.

i was not looking for a spelling lesson or a lecture.
but thanks.

ps-i understand you are a senior rigger, and i say this with all the respect it comands.

"I'd rather drop the remaining toggle and "jedi" myself to landing rather than spin in with a line over.

The only thing in BASE that can claim more saves than the line over modification are John Dragan's boats at Bridge Day . . . "

I agree, but again as i said, OTHER than line overs.
i would think that using WLO toggles would be ok, even though they are harder and slower to clear than just throwing a toggle.

You could use this setup of mine.

Ring Release Risers

Here's more of a detailed description of them.

Keep the sarcasm for yourself, that was not a personal attack on my part. So you know, the vast majority for blown toggles are due to piss poor rigging that by the way includes piss poor maintenance.

I assure you that I will never have a blown toggle, really.

Said that, route the brake lines in the rings and let us know how it works for ya if you obviously don't see the advantage in leaving them out.

forgive the sarcasm, i apologise.


i got kicked out of my english classes for talking smack to the teachers. some things wont change.

I dont plan on jumping with the lines in the rings, there are a lot of things a lot of brothers died figuring out, and i dont want that to be pushed aside. i just want some ideas, I see the advantages of leaving them out, but that really scared me. (didnt stop me from jumping it again 4 hours later) ((but i did spend an extra minute or two stowing brake lines, nicknitro, i do concede that)

i will work on my spelling,

again, sorry. i never was to good at being put in my place.

Thats awsome! thank you.
i assume it works about the same speed as WLOs, so i might just try those at the potato for awhile.

If you do a search for line mod you will find quite a few threads on this topic. http://dropzone.com/...g=line%20mod;#958550

Here is another one. Tom even mentions haveing put a handfull of jumps on Russels guide ring release set up. http://dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I've never used WLO's but I think my setup works faster than them. All you have to do is just pop the toggle to get the ring to release. Just like you would with any ordinary toggle.

The reason to route them outside the toggle (to clear a line over) has already been discussed to death, I think.

Let me add a couple thoughts:

1) I know several very experienced jumpers who do not use the LRM. I don't personally do this, and I do not believe it is good practice. But, if you search this forum, you can find some discussion of it. I would never recommend or teach this technique, but the presence of the tailgate greatly reduces (but does not eliminate--I have good video of a tailgated line over) the chance for a line over. Some people think the tailgate puts the odds game into a territory they feel comfortable risking.

2) I have seen many premature toggle fires that were not the result of poor rigging. In every single one of these cases the toggle was a metal pin style (not a cloth stub). I believe that the metal pin style toggles are prone to premature release during the opening sequence. I have several theories as to why this is the case (the one I'm most fond of is that the metal pin can slip around inside the pack tray a lot more easily than a cloth stub). But the bottom line, for me personally, is that I will not jump toggles that use a metal pin to retain the brake setting on any slider down (non test) jump.

3) The only reason I can see to use the metal pin style toggles (because they are line release toggle that operate with one hand) only applies on slider up jumps, where the ring will be retaining the toggle anyway.

4) The recommendation not to use WLO's slider down, which was made by the manufacturer, is, in my opinion, for wear and maintenance issues. The metal pin will bend over time from the force of the slider down openings. If you are committed to serious gear inspection, and willing to replace your WLO's at regular intervals if they show sings of bending, I can personally see few reasons not to use the WLO's, in combination with the guide rings, on slider down jumps. If this is your preference, just be aware of the risks.

5) I think that Russel's ring-release risers are a better solution for this problem. I've got them in my gear bag at the moment. Matt, with Russel's permission I'm willing to send them to you so you can try them out and see what you think.

6) Be aware that releasing the line with a WLO toggle in the event of a line over is still going to be a slower response than simply tossing the toggle with the LRM.

Having tested both systems I can say for certain that your system works faster than the WLO's. It's completely invisible to the jumper.

Of course, your setup doesn't release the line from the toggle (to allow it to slide through the slider grommet), so it does not address the main issue that WLO's are intended for.

Are your toggles of the pin style (Vertigo, Gravity Sports) or the cloth stub style (Basic Research, CR, Asylum, Morpheus) closure?

I forgot to mention that. I also know of several instances of that, again poor rigging from the manufacture stand point if you asked me.

Tom, are they still being made or pretty much everybody switched to cloth type?

I don't know. I believe that Apex still has both styles available. Certainly the WLO's are a pin style, by necessity of their design.

Sure, go for it.

~i would think that using WLO toggles would be ok, even though they are harder and slower to clear than just throwing a toggle.
~~even though they are harder and slower to clear than just throwing a toggle

Do you base this on experience or speculation? I have used my WLOs at least ten times and thrown my toggles at least the same amount of times. Granted, never in a real line-over scenario, but many times trying to be as quick as possible after opening (after a hypothetical heading correction).

I have come to the conclusion that a WLO release can be just as quick as a LRM release if not quicker. It is also cleaner.

The initial phase of grasping the tab to release it might take a little longer, but then ripping it lose is incredibly fast (faster than ripping of an entire toggle) and the line dissappears quicker because of the tension than were you to throw the entire toggle away.

When throwing the toggle away, there is a risk the toggle hangs up in other lines and stays there. That's why you want to throw the toggle away far. With the WLOs only a line release with a clean end, the tension on it pulls it away quick and cleanly.

If I had more experience and I would have more statistics on the bending pin issue, I would strongly consider switching from LRM to WLO for all my slider down jumping. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future, possibly with a stronger and even faster WLO design, I'll make that switch.

That seems a rather strong statement in a sport like this.

Anyway, I've reached up for risers on a jump once and ended up knocking off one of my toggles. I am using pin toggles (providing more data for Tom's theory) but I'm most definetely meticulate in setting my toggles, always making sure they are pretensioned and always doing one last check in the packtray before closing the container.

I'm with Calvin on this one and would like to see more research into a slider-down WLO system.

My experiences testing both systems. I found that by the time I had identified the pull tab on the WLO's and gotten my hand to it, I'd already (before releasing anything) consumed more time than I had by just grabbing and pitching the toggle.

Imagine if it were a quickly spinning line over. I'd bet then the difference would be even more pronounced (it's much easier to grab the whole toggle than to fiddle out the red tab in level flight, I'd imagine the difference would be even greater in a spin).

Have you considered using Russel's risers?

post a link to the posts he talked about it in for those lost

Since it wasn't mentioned yet . . .

The reason we went to Zoo type toggles (toggles with steel pins) is we had a few instances where during a lineover the jumper couldn't get the cloth toggle out of the cat's eye on the brake line.

A steering line over the top of the canopy will exert much more pressure than normal. On one of these I saw a jumper trying to clear the toggle and because it jammed all he did is pull the whole riser down and further increase the rate of turn.

We tried coating the cloth toggles in bee's wax but that didn’t help and they picked up a lot of dirt and grim. While not scientific you can simulate the problem by having someone pull up on the steering line while you try to fire the brake. You'll see it sometimes (depending on the design of the toggle) doesn't take all that much force before you can't release it. With a steel pin you could put a thousand pounds of pull on the line and the pin will still release.

Toggles it seems have always been, and probably always will be, a weak spot in BASE gear.

For Russel, who lands mostly in the water, (for now anyway ) I'm wondering if doing away with the steering lines in their present form might be an idea? You could replace the steering lines with much shorter lines that cascade into the "c" lines and be done with it. You'd have to experiment with length to find an optimum between opening characteristics and forward flight but the shorter lines should be less prone to lineovers and he could steer and land with the rear risers.

We aren’t going to solve the toggle problem unless we think outside the box and find a new way to steer and land canopies. So let's experiment with Russel . . .

Maybe someday someone will invent a cloth hinge and we can go with ailerons or spoilers for steering?

NickD
BASE 194

I wouldn't mind seeing a canopy design without steering lines and the rear risers cascading earlier so you can steer by controlling the D lines. Effectively you would have four rises going up, instead of four. As far as I know, some paragliders have a riser for each line group.

Those rear-rear risers could have toggles on them.

Of course there is still the chance of having a line over on your C and D lines, but oh well...

Edited to add: No wait, that's a silly idea. Without some way to "stow the rear-rear-riser" your flight range would be limited by whatever it is on opening. Never mind.

I don't know, many jumped rounds from buildings at one time and they didn't steer or move forward all that well.

A ram air, even with a fixed brake setting, would still out fly and out land a round.

Nick
BASE 194

Yes, but you would still want minimal forward speed on opening in case of an offheading (like rounds and a properly tuned DBS on a square).

If that is your 'default' setting that is how fast your canopy is going to fly, period. That doesn't sound go to me. I want minimal forward speed on opening, and then be able to 'let something up' to fly faster.

What is that thing 'we let up'?

 

I've seen that style (the old Gravity Sports style) toggle blow on opening as well.

There's really only one stow point--the pin. If that pin goes, there is nothing really holding the toggle in place. The stow band over the top of the toggle isn't a load bearing point, and it's going to have to take quite a bit of force.

Nick, wasn't this in an era when the cloth stub actually stuck directly through the cat's eye?

I haven't seen this be a problem with modern LRT style toggle setups (where the white loop reduces the overall force to the toggle).

Have you (or anyone) seen a case of a modern LRT style toggle jamming into the control line during a hard opening (or malfunction)? I am unaware of any instances of this happening on modern gear.

I had not considered this.

Is anyone aware of a case where this has happened? It does sound possible, I just haven't actually heard of it happening. But given the very low number of LRM saves in the tailgate era, I guess that's not surprising.

Yeah, it's both a good thing and a bad thing that we don't have more experience with this.

However, I've somehow been taught to throw the toggle to the side and behind me, away from any other lines. I'm not sure who taught me that, but it makes sense to me.

Whether or not you actually care or have time during an actual line over is another issue.

>>Nick, wasn't this in an era when the cloth stub actually stuck directly through the cat's eye?<<

Yes it was . . .

NickD
BASE 194

" toggle fires that were not the result of poor rigging. In every single one of these cases the toggle was a metal pin style (not a cloth stub)"

Yes... my toggles are short metal pins.
I have, since starting this collum, decided to male my own toggle/riser setup. using cutaway cable AND a cloth stub, and i will test at the bridge.

The risers are already made...


Thabk you all for all the input. this is the first technical collum i have ever started, it turned out well.

How about this:

The proper way to stow the brakes is LRT hence while loop (WL) into the eye of the bake line, loop into the ring, toggle into the loop.

Now imagine a second white loop (2WL) that runs right below the existing one or above it. Now you pass the WL though the eye, then the ring. At this point you pass the 2WL into the normal white loop and finally the toggle into the 2WL.

Can you picture the three-ring idea here? The force on the toggle itself would be greatly minimized.

Why not use another metal ring instead of a second white loop?

I think i might try that...
After tacking my new risers, i remembered why cutaway cable is such a pain, it has no stiffness. I would need a smaller ring to keep the loop from bending the cable and folding then pulling it through the ring, creating a wonderfull toggle lock or just losing the toggle for good... again.

I cant make the ring smaller, because i dont have a bar tach machine and if the ring is smaller it limits the brake line freedom when sliding through it when one would route the brake line through it(sliderup)

I like your idea of minimising the forces on the actual toggle tab, but i cant sew a new loop into my risers, i have a -kinda-bar tach machine an hour away i can use, but i am going to try to put a gromet tab (like on a cutaway) on the riser at the toggle stow, to fold over the ring, so one can route the loop through the ring, then through the gromet, then stow the 4 or 5" of cutaway cable in a curved loop (because it runs into the end of the riser an 3" and i want more toggle travel before it unstows)

The toggle cannot go through the ring

You want leverage not additional layers...

If you think about it with slider down/removed, we are not using any de-multiplying strategies; we just pile up a ring and a toggle on top of the eye via the while loop.

I hope it makes some sense.

I think I am very confused.

Can you post a picture of your idea?

I was still thinking the toggle went through the white loop. Just replace the first white loop (WL in your example) with a ring. Then 2WL (the one the toggle goes through) is still a white loop (now it's the only white loop).

Or heck, why not just put a whole 3 ring system on the toggle, while you're at it?

I think he means the toggle cant get sucked throught the ring and become "blown"



and your right, nicknitro, that is what im trying desperatly to do here, keep the toggle in place, re invent the wheel.
of course, i was never a big fan of wheels.

Let me articulate the idea better (it sounds like a joke).

On slider up we slide the eye pass the ring and inset the toggle. This creates a de-multiplying factor because we are effectively using the rig as a pulley.

With slider down we do not have such a luxury or at least not to the extent of slider up setting. Moreover the forces on the brake lines are greater on slider down.

The LRT works quite well especially with cloth toggles. However, by adding another loop we can take advantage of our beloved pulley. "Gimme a lever long enough and I'll lift the world".

Here is a pic of it (pardon the roughness).

The green loop is the 2WL that can be easily installed on the risers.

With this set up, we can take advantage of de-multiplying forces.

I'll put the "LRLT" set up on tonight and jump it on the week-end.

may not be exactly what you are thinking of, but I rember BD03, Lonnie ended up with a very interesting line/toggle/ring configuration after taking a slider off (maybe it was slider down) to something like 5.5 seconds...

the opening snapped the one brakeline, but I believe it pulled some toggle into the ring before snapping....

This worries me. With this setup, it may be difficult to release your brake lines.

I say this because I have often had to pull down on the brake lines further (i.e. after pulling the tab out of the loop) in order to pull the loop out of the eye in order to go into full flight.

With this set up, I could imagine the 2nd (green) loop lying across the ring after you pull the toggle tab out. Between friction and leverage, you might find it difficult to pull the green loop through the ring just by pulling down on the brake line.

Good point.

I put the loops in last night and I was playing with the system. Indeed it requires a bit more force to release the brakes when they are under tension but the force on the toggles is greatly reduced, they stay loose even when lots of force is applied to the lines (that can also be not a good thing).

I guess the optimal solution as Tom said is to have a three ring release with "miniature" rings.

In the mean time I stick with the "normal" set up that's been very good to me thus far.

pbasetobe's toggle design:
yellow cables need constant attention for nicks and brittleness. brittleness is a particular issue in extremely cold environments.

Is this from the specs for the material, or from experience?

I know I met some Russian jumpers a while back who were using yellow cable instead of pins (I believe it was adopted from European freeflyers, who did that for skydiving believing the yellow cable to be more secure). They had used their yellow-cable equipped rigs without incident through the winters in Russia (which, I am given to believe, are fairly cold).

I've never played with the yellow cable at temperature extremes. Maybe I'll try throwing some in the freezer to see what happens.

agreed, i have used some yellow cutaway cable for some pretty serious (non-parachute) release applications, and never had a problem with it getting nicked/bent. if you have extra cable and swedges/tool, its very easy and inexpensive to replace.