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as there are obviously no hard statistical data on risk-factors leading to accidents/injury (not death) in base i am interested in your guess - let's see what the base-community supposes!

here my question: what are in your opinion the main-reasons leading to "injury-accidents"?
(let's include all incidents leading to pain or body-malfunction that last at least one week, ok?)

i think it would make sense to rank your (five to ten) most favourite reasons and quote your supposed percentage/spreading of each one of them --> so someone could be aware of the situations that seem to be most often responsible for accidents leading to injury!

let me make two (different) axamples (data is 100% imaginary and therefore of course invalid) how this could look like:

---

example1:

50% - offheading

50% - due to bad pack-job
25% - due to unstable body-position
25% - bad luck

30% - landing incident

50% - due to pulling to low

50% - due to insufficient experience
50% - due to PC-hesitation

30% - due to bad landing area
20% - due to insufficient body-armor

20% - other

50% - bad weather

50% - leading to slippery exit-point and unstable body position...
50% - foggy landing area leading to bad landing...

25% - aerials-associated

50% - leading to wall strike
50% - leading to low pull..

25% - drugs-/alcohol-associated

---

example2:

30% - bad luck (if that exists...?)

75% - leading to offheading
25% - leading to PS-hesitation

20% - unsufficient experience

60% - leading to pulling to low
40% - leading to bad landing

15% - bad weather

50% - leading to slippery exit-point and unstable body position
50% - foggy landing area leading to bad landing

10% - aerials-associated

90% - overconfidence
10% - bad luck

10% - drugs-/alcohol-associated

10% - bad pack-job

90% - leading to offheading
5% - leading to lineover
5% - leading to hesitation

5% - dangerous landing-area (relative to the experience of the jumper)

50% - trees
25% - stones
10% - power supply lines
10% - buildings
5% - cars

I would think that off-heading opening are influenced way more through "bad body position" than through your theory of a bad pack job. How many times have you seen someone dip a shoulder (resulting in the off-heading opening) than some sort of bad pack job? We see poor body position a fair amount in this sport for many different reasons.

thanx for your reply!

as i noted above the percentages i used are only to give something like an example how this could look like - as i am an ABSOLUTE (!) NEWBIE to this sport the percentages are most likely 100 % UNREALISTIC!

i hope you have better guesses than me.

why?

granted, no one want to get hurt. no one wants to (again) carry someone out.

redirect your energy to something you wish to achieve, not avoid. focus on your goals and motivations, not your fears.

some people spend entire lives avoiding death, but still never live.

...one of the things i wish ot achieve and therefore want to focus on in the next years is to make "safe" base-jumps someday.

that's quite admirable.
I wish you the best.

a woman in a canopy control course focused on a hazard in the landing area. care to guess where she landed?

if you focus on all the risks and the things to avoid, guess what will be in your head at the exit point?

if you focus on perfecting your pack job, knowing your equipment, or training for flippy-dos (for you specifically, NOT yet!) guess what will be in your head?

besides, I'm lazy. the list of correct things to do is far shorter than the list of wrong things! focus on doing what's right and naturally avoid what's wrong.

oh, and no matter what course you choose, expect to be at an injury site.

 

1. Lack of education/awarness/experience
2.Complacency
3.Coincidence/Bad luck

_M

 

30% - bad luck (if that exists...?)

75% - leading to offheading
25% - leading to PS-hesitation

I think it is really bad to put bad luck in to your calculation because it gives your brain room to relax thats not good enough you have to be perfect (in your own sense)

good luck on your journey..........

Benjamín

 

perfect (in your own sense)





but thanagin if your perfect you could be fxxed as well because its not a "perfect" world...., ,.,

These sorts of statistical things always bug me. I think maybe (and, then again, maybe not) the reason for that is illustrated by a recent experience...

A couple of weekends ago, I was standing at the top of the tall bridge in Colorado (sure, I could name it, by why start now?) in conditions that I would characterize as "questionable". Some people were jumping. More were chosing not to. If you aren't already familiar with it, the thing you need to understand about this bridge is that it sits 1000 feet over a tight gorge. With a landing area the size of a hanky. Whitewater on one side, bluffs, cliffs, and ankle breakers on the other.

All of that said, the successful jumps by other jumpers (if I assume that my skills are on par with theirs -- so I'll flatter myself for a moment) seem to indicate that my odds of actually injuring myself that day (I didn't jump all day) were less than 5%. For all the talk some jumpers make about "my odds are 50/50 on every jump", I respectfully suggest that those individuals have no idea what 50/50 odds would feel like. 5%, as it turns out, is enough for me to seriously consider turning back.

What's my point? I don't leave the object unless I feel my odds of injury on this one are less than something like 5% -- probably much less (because, you see, I'm soft like that). Perhaps your goals would therefore be better served by a list of "things to watch out for when BASE jumping". No percentages.

The fatality list would be a good place to start. In the name of being particularly helpful, though, here's a bit of a contribution... Sometimes this stuff can hurt you. And sometimes it's just part of a great day you BS about in the bar afterward.

---

Things to watch out for when BASE jumping:

- Body position at exit. And on opening. And in between.
- Stuff in your packjob that makes you think, "Should I reapack this?"
- Strange winds at exit. Any kind of instability, even in low winds.
- Strange winds in the landing area, or during the climb to the exit.
- Gnarly rocks in the landing area. Or on your intended flight path. Or near it.
- Trees, especially big ones, along your intended flight path, even if you'll "definitely clear them".
- That feeling that you're not quite with it, just now, at the exit point.
- Aging gear. Is this pilot chute still good? Does my velcro need replacing?
- New stuff. Aerials. Wing suits. New object. New rig.
- Stuff you forgot. Left your helmet at home? Not sure this rig is slider-down?
- Wierd stuff that happened to the guy who just jumped. Particularly on opening or under canopy.
- Ice.
- Black elastics.
- Bystanders, animals, and expensive stuff in the landing area that you might bury a toggle to avoid.
- Fog, darkness, and other conditions that make it hard to see.
- A last minute change of plans. For any reason. Of any kind.

Go ahead. Expand on this list.

The danger in BASE is not that its dangerous, it's that death is a rather final state of being, and it's always just around the corner.

Keep that in mind, and statistics become meaningless.

Wow. That's totally a... What did you say I should call it? A nugget? Right -- that's totally a nugget.

... Like that, right?

Seriously, though, well put. Very well put.

And to follow up with a more meaningful post, here are my personal feelings without resorting to statistics.

The thing that scares me the most is getting nothing out. I've been there once and I know how it feels. It's peaceful, but I don't recommend it. Oddly enough, the thing you should worry about is what happens after something comes out. Offheadings and tight landing areas are your number one enemies.

Pilotchutes and bridles have a tendency to get something out. Don't ask me why, I'm still amazed by how well they work. Then again, I'm still impressed that planes can fly and that ships don't sink.

Just because something is scientifically explainable, doesn't have to diminish the wonders of it all...

Dude! You weren't supposed to show that we are orchestrating our discussions behind the scenes.

Sheesh...

Seriously, though, your post wasn't too bad either. Not bad at all.

First, thanks to you all for being willing to post advice for new people. I have zero experience and am here to learn as much as possible. It seems that risk mitigation is the key here. After reading the List several times, it appears as though using the right gear incl. boots, helmet, etc., being REALLY good at sub-term tracking, opening, canopy control, off-heading recovery, line twist recovery, and landing, plus taking a course, using a good mentor and good judgement would eliminate a good chunk of the accidents on the List. Again, I don't know sht, but there seems to be a lot of "i wouldn't have done that"s on the List. It cannot be that simple, though, right? When flying airplanes, it seems pretty easy to avoid 75% of the causes of accidents by having fuel, staying out of weather, and being careful. Same with climbing; double check anchors, use good judgement, don't go beyond your abilities, etc. Are the kind of comparisons above of any value in BASE? Sorry to be so uninformed, but if I do try BASE someday, I want to have as much knowledge as possible.

Thanks!

I keep hearing Body Positioning but Body Positioning is nothing without Awareness.
.
60 % - Body Position Awareness
35 % - Pack
5 % - outside influence
.
You really want to know the Main Cause for Injury-Accidents ? That would be Throwing your Healthy Body off the top of Fixed objects.
.

The majority of deaths are due to object strikes or low pulls however the vast majority of injuries are due to landings, interesting landings.

You only get good at something if you practice a lot, it's called learning I believe. On a BASE jump I get about 5-10 sec MAX canopy ride hence 100 BASE = ~8-16 min of canopy ride, not much really.

There is a subset of BASE jumpers that at the 150 skydive mark pick up BASE and stop or get uncurrent in skydiving, that will sure compromise their canopy skills.

No matter what you hear canopy skills do transfer. It's much harder to land a sub 100 loaded 2.0 than a big ass 7 cell @ 0.7.

The better canopy pilot you are the more chances you have to avoid injuries on landing as simple as that.

Do CRW, play with your canopy a lot, do no-contact CRW with HP canopies, learn how to swoop, take down, cross wind, trash it up high, haul tandems...all those things will dramatically improve your chances of getting hurt on a BASE landing especially if you are current.

Just my 0.02

You mean they will improve your chances of "NOT" getting hurt on a BASE landing

For all the talk some jumpers make about "my odds are 50/50 on every jump", I respectfully suggest that those individuals have no idea what 50/50 odds would feel like. 5%, as it turns out, is enough for me to seriously consider turning back.

So we're still arguing about this. are we? What you know nowadays came from what other people were doing 20 years ago. 2005, hmmmm, 1985.....

different eras.

Guys 50/50 is like playing the russian roulette with 3 bullets! Think about it, the normal (one round) russian roulette is 16%!

Ahhhh - here is the opportunity for a hearty debate on . . . . . . .

Risk Management, Potential Problem Analysis, Situation Appraisal, SWOT analysis, etc.

I can tell you from experience that the person who has considered all possible stuff ups and has made a plan for each of these PRIOR to their occurence, has a much greater chance at survival than someone who is positive and goal oriented, and has not considered the possible outcomes to their actions.

You also have a much greater chance of success and achievement if you are prepared for the obstacle that you WILL INEVITABLY come across throughout your life.

I concur - I prefer people who are motivated, positive, success oriented, etc. But what I do not like is when opportunities are wasted due to lack of thought, and some grasp of reality. Life is the greatest opportunity we all have.

Don't be the soldier charging at the front line of your enemies without a plan.

Don't invest in the markets without some strategy that will maximise your profits and minimise your losses and determine high probability outcomes.

Don't be the person who has 100 failed relationships.

Don't be the BASE jumper lying dead half way up a wall because you were too focused on the final outcome instead of the process on the way there!!!!

Finally - avoiding death at all costs is probably far too conservative an option for those that want to achieve great things in their lives. By the same token, unecessarily and thoughtlessly losing a life is just as much a waste.

Go for GOLD - but take the appropriate path / steps in getting there.

Your post tells me you know a hell of a lot more about BASE and risk than many active jumpers.

You have a recurring theme in the examples you have given r.e. flying and climbing.

Operator error. Human Error. Poor Decisions. yada yada yada

I do/have done all three (BASE, flying, climbing). Psychology, knowledge, training, and experience plays a major part in safety and/or advancing to higher levels. It also plays a major part in accidents in all three disciplines.

I have been saying for a long time that jumping from an object is NOT necessarily the most dangerous aspect of this much loved activity. IT IS THE DECISIONS THAT IT"S PARTICIPANTS MAKE THAT HAVE THE GREATEST IMPACT (pardon the pun) on our statistics. This is not about luck, or about risk, or about intervention from higher beings, etc. It is 99% about the decisions we make. And the most important decisions are made BEFORE we jump. Quite often the most important decision is made even before the first BASE jump.

What I mean by this is that many people are so focused on the final outcome, the doing, that they miss all the steps in between. When the proverbial "shit hits the fan", they are unable to manage the situation. They made a decision up front to miss development steps and the opportunity to assess their progress. And their lack of knowledge has meant that they could not make the right decision when most needed. The second decision would have been potentially a lot easier if the first was correct/justified. Just accepting the perceived and going on with it IS NOT managing risk.


Heh, heh, heh. Harry hindsight knows it all. It usually is simple. We are humans. And BASE jumpers / adventurers are a special "sub-section" of the human race. It is in our nature to push our limits, have fun, play a bit of Russian Roulette, go lower, do one more somersault, jump in wind, use the wrong gear, etc. You know what I mean. I have done it. I think that 99% of jumpers have consciously or subconsciously said "what the heck, it does not feel right but I'm going for it anyway". This ups the excitement, etc. It also elevates the risk. This is when BASE jumping actually changes from a risky activity (like everything else we do in life) to a dangerous activity. Because we have decided to make it dangerous. Not because it is!!!!!

Some examples:

FLYING - you've just finished your training and you are doing a cross country flight. You decide to fly low over tiger country to impress your date. Trees and mountains everywhere. You have never really practiced STOL's and forced / EP landings apart from a few "artificial" landings during your license test. The engine splutters. There is a field about 50m long. You aim for it. . . . Your odds?????? Now, if you had of practiced those landings during your training, chosen an aircraft that can side slip like hell and is designed for STOL, and you followed the rule of flying from field to field (i.e keep landing areas/outs withing range), what are your chances now??????

BASE Jumping - you've done your course at the Bridge. Then you decide to jump a gnarly underhung cliff with a tight landing area and no outs. You over-rotate (no real training in aerials), you open low, you can't get the maximum glide efficiency out of your canopy to make the landing area (you didn't really learn the intricacies of flying canopies and aerodynamics), you . . . . . . are in trouble ......... Decisions, decisions. . . . . . . . .

The reality is that you can encounter situations where you have done your utmost to be prepared and make the right decisions, and something still goes wrong. But this scenario is rarer than you may think.

It's your decision!!!!!!!!

p.s. There are a number of people around the world that collect and study BASE statistics. Guess what? Virtually ALL accidents have some degree of human error involved. This is easy to say in hindsight. How do you overcome or minimise the impact of this problem? What is the magic secret?

There is no magic.

Follow the often repeated advice of: good training, good mentor, great gear, take it a step at a time, be realistic, if you want to aim high - that is fine - but make sure you travel the road there - don't just go from thought to final act in one step, respect the sport, respect YOUR life.

As you said, this will cover a very high percentage of potential accidents. You can never stop all accidents, but you should certainly make an effort to minimise them.

This might help some. Personal factor includes everything from ignoring advice, burning it in low, being reckless, etc.

there really is no room for a debate, as I agree with you.

problems should be addressed, but not dwelled upon.

plans should be executed incrementally.

learn the best practices from those who have gone before.

my point was the extreme focus on negative events. focus on a negative, and you tend to receive it. I never said IGNORE them!

you can acheive by sidestepping pitfalls, but rarely will you succeed by staring at them.

>>After reading the List several times, it appears as though using the right gear incl. boots, helmet, etc., being REALLY good at sub-term tracking, opening, canopy control, off-heading recovery, line twist recovery, and landing, plus taking a course, using a good mentor and good judgement would eliminate a good chunk of the accidents on the List.<<

I love it when someone at the point of only being interested in BASE jumping gets it. On the other side of the coin are those who say, "then is then, now is now." I notice that folks you say that mostly have no, "then," and only have, "now."

The earliest jumpers on the List made mistakes none of us knew where mistakes until they did them. What does us in now is people find new ways to make old mistakes.

Number two on the List left a pull up cord in his closing loop, number 72 on the List jumped without his pilot chute and shrivel flap being connected to his parachute. In both cases the result was the same. Number 14 on the List jumped only to have his static line part before opening the container, number 32 on the List had the same result when she put the pilot chute into her BOC instead of leaving it on the ground. Number 15 on the List jumped using a skydiving pilot chute and bridle and so did Number 52. Number 17 on the List over delayed and impacted on line stretch, then a few people did the same thing jumping camera, then a few more did it jumping wing suits.

So it isn't enough to simply avoid mistakes of the past, you have to be sharp enough to realize how many roads can lead to that same mistake. Except for the low pull wing suit phenomenon almost every "basic" mistake that can be made has already been made. In the early days I remember saying after certain fatalities, "Wow, I never even thought that could happen." I haven't thought or said that once in the last ten years.

One of the big decisions new BASE jumpers need to make is how far out there do they want to be? I believe if conservative, not trying to fill a logbook with BASE jumps, and only doing things other people have already done, there's a good chance you'll wind up in the BASE Old Brother's and Sister's Home with good memories and a lifetime of friends.

But, if you want to make a name for yourself, (a dubious endeavor in this sport) you either have to pioneer a lot of new stuff, or just be very careful and out last everyone else while going out of your way to help people. Believe me, the latter is much safer.

We are in a new phase in BASE jumping (BASE never stands still.) We've left the "aerial" stage and are now in the "trick" stage. I'm not knocking that, and it's the evitable result of having many legal places to jump, making lots of jumps, and being unbelievably current. I'd throw my pilot chute to Tom Aiello for a "catch and release" almost anywhere anytime. I would NOT do it with a jumper I just met five minutes ago in the line at Bridge Day.

My advice for new BASE jumpers is read the entire list twice a year. When out there BASE jumping listen more than talk, and probably the most paramount skill is learn how to tell bullshit from the real thing. I walked past lots of small groups in West Virginia and would hear something that rang the BS bell and I'd have to stop and sort them out. It always took me an hour to get anywhere I was really going at the Holiday Inn

Lastly, never never take BASE jumping for granted. When standing in the LZ gathering up your canopy always look back up and offer a silent thank you. And then go party like there's no tomorrow . . .

NickD
BASE 194

redirect your energy to something you wish to achieve, not avoid. focus on your goals and motivations, not your fears. some people spend entire lives avoiding death, but still never live.

That's a nugget! Thanks for that one, I really needed it.

Peace,
K

I hope it didn't sound like I was thrashing on anyone on the List. They were developing something new and very unforgiving. Anyway, thanks to you folks for the info. I have years to study, think, etc. before even possibly being ready to give it a try.

Oh, yeah, check out the 20 Oct. Sacramento Bee newspaper, local/metro news. sacbee.com Something really bizarre happened at a big thing upriver from Sacramento.

Edit: Mod, would it be proper to post a link to the story?