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what is your opinion about this:

i wanted to get into base for some years now. i made my AFF-course this year. now i want to buy my first SKYDIVING-rig to practice for base very hard. i want to buy a zero porosity base-canopy to be my main-skydiving-canopy to work on all the base-relevant skills (from packing to landing) in the next years - i plan to do 100 skydiving-jumps next year followed by another 100 skydiving-jumps the year after next year.

• would that be a good idea?


• what about using that base-canopy after e.g. 250 (terminal-velocity-)skydives for my base-jumps? (of course in combination with a base-container!)


• which base-canopy would you recommend for this project?


• should i buy a new or an used base-canopy?


• which container would you use for SKYDIVING that base-canopy?


• is it possible to install RSL on a base-canopy-skydiving-container-system?


• how would you pack the base-canopy (into the skydiving-container) for skydiving - like a skydiving-canopy or like as you would base-jump it?

basicly i dont think you should go buy a BASE canopy to practice whith.. a Raven or other similar 7cell canopyes in the bigger range should offer you alot of experience aswell and are much cheapere(if you get a used one)

Jumping canopyes out of planes on a regular basis should be packed like a normal skydive canopy(into a bag whith sail slider on),feeling the "BANG" aint somthing you´ll need to practice,its the pilot skills under the flying canopy that matters..

Learn how to land acurate EACH time you land(deside already before you enter the plane..).

Practice how to correct your headding under canopy while having line twists(simply just twist it 2-3 times after you got an open main,then climb up and try turn the canopy,then untwist afterwards.

Learn how to land safely on rear risers only(many inkluding me has broken bones due this as we werent prepared)

if theres some CRW guys arround hang arround whith them,they know more about canopy control than most skydivers does(besides swoopers aswell ofcourse).

Learn how to land in stressfull envioments.

Any larger harness should fit the gear

I would pack the canopy as i would do on any other skydives..

Any rigger can modify a pair of risers to a RSL system,it has nothing to do whith the canopy.

thanks faber for your interesting and helpful reply!

i read this "do-it-with-your-base-canopy-thing" in the base-wiki (>getting into base>skydiving).

i see, that there might be different opinions concerning this question.

concerning the price of base-canopy vs. other 7-cell-canopies:

i thought: "why should i buy another 7-cell-canopy (e.g. raven), when i will have to buy my base-canopy in 2 or 3 years anyway - let's do it with a base-canopy right from the start and use it afterwards for base!"

is the price the only doubt you have?

Scary how close our answers are... I wrote this earlier but left in a hurry before posting... here it is.

I"ll answer specifically then offer my opinion.

Price is certainly a cosideration. I suggest this ==> Don't wear out your BASE canopy skydiving with it.

You can often find a used Raven 3 or 4 for cheap. I found my my used Raven III for only a couple hundred bucks.

If you've priced out a new BASE canopy, it's not cheap. Used ones are available so if you do find one for a decent price, you might as well grab it.

BASE canopies can easily be packed up to open slower.

I've added some of my thoughts on BASE WIKI.

I disagree with Hookitt that skydiving a large canopy is boring. It might not be as hot and sexy as swooping, but I get a huge kick out of improving my accuracy skills. Accuracy is a lot more fun on a large canopy that you can really sink like a mofo.

If you disagree... then you are wrong.

Just kidding.

Here's how it should read.... Big skydiving canopies may become fairly boring.

But I see your point, especially as a new skydiver that has so much to learn under canopy. I too like shooting accuracy and such, but I gotta tell ya, flying a skydiving canopy is a lot of fun.

Yeah, for sure. I was recently flying my Sabre 170 after having done about 20 jumps on my 260 BASE canopy. After it scared the crap out of me, I quickly realized how much fun it can be. I'll never have the balls or lack of brains to get into swooping though...

From your profile:

Number of Jumps: 229

hehehe... sure... you say that now. Mark this date and when you begin swooping, refer back

That would imply I actually continue skydiving a whole lot. Unfortunately, when given a choice between hanging out on the DZ for an entire day and doing only 3 or 4 jumps, or going climbing, hiking, surfing, skiing or kayaking all day, the choice is easy.

Having too many fun things to do is one of the better problems to have in life....

That's 2 good points in one day. Keep that roll going!







Ok... breaks over... heading back out to the redneck trailer.

That's hard to do when someone has your canopy huh? I'll return it as soon as I get a chance to jump it again. Hopefully right after Bridge Day if that's still cool?

if you skydive your BASE canopy nowfor 1-2 years(depending on how much you progress),at the point were you want to take up BASE you have used the BASE canopy so much that it might aint ok for BASE anylonger..plus at that point the market probaly give you a other BASE canopy that you rather try out..in that case you just used a 7cell F-111 canopy that as´well could have been a Raven or similar.
Nah just buy the Raven practice till it die,then when you want to take up BASE buy a set of gear and take the canopy skydiving learning that canopy.

IF you want to pack your skydive canopy in a BASE manner by mesh slider,you will experience that you dont want too long delays as Terminal opens up BANG,no matter.

Use a sail slider and a bag,that way you also can freefly RW or what ever you want to.
Rember skydiving is still fun if you explore it.

Jaap,i think its a cool thing that you run WIKI but i think its wrong of you posting that you posted your answer there,forcing people to visit your site.
Just a light slap into your face,and still waiting your visit this october,were are you??

EDIT:mostwanted as you found it at WIKI you might want to post it there aswell,or didnt i see it? Blinc is also a resource

thank you all for your interesting and helpful replies!

@faber: yes, i already posted a comment on base-wiki, and just some hours later there has been setup a new topic "skydiving a BASE canopy".

that was the article jaab refered to. i may be wrong, but i guess to link to such an artikel should be ok - but i am not sure...

...it was helpful anyway!

If price were not an issue, the ideal solution would be to purchase 2 BASE canopies--one to skydive with and one to BASE jump with. Just buy one, skydive the snot out of it, then when you are ready, buy a new one for BASE. If the canopies were identical, it would give you a big advantage in knowing the canopy pretty well right off the bat. You could reduce the costs of this strategy by finding a used, older BASE canopy for skydiving.

I don't know how much you weigh so I don't know what size canopy you'll need, but there is a Raven 282 with a Neo 2-pin rig on eBay for $1000 starting bid. The guy told me he bought it from dropzone.com and needs to resell it to get his money pronto! If that canopy is a decent size for you, it could be a good deal....

I already called the builder of the Neo to tell him it was there...strange to see base gear on eBay.

Peace and good luck!
Karen

I agree. This BASE WIKI thing is new, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to do it. I'm thinking next time I will write my post here. Then, when the thread has died down, I can collect all the information from everybody and throw it over to the WIKI (if it's useful).


Unemployed, broke, and in Canada. I'm waiting for my new work-visa so I can make money again, and then travel again.

Well, I disagree with both of you.

If Jaap can't link to the WIKI, then are the rest of us also supposed to discontinue using links for the purpose of providing information? Or is this a special rule that only applies to Jaap, Faber? (If it is, then please feel free to continue busting his ass.)

I mean, I appreciate the effort it takes to click the mouse and all (not to mention the precious seconds wasted it takes for page to load)...never mind...I'm too tired tonight for high-quality sarcasm.


Next time, hit him harder.

rl

P.S. Don't take the lack of smileys to heart. Unfortunately, there are none available on this board that signify <eye-rolling>, <slowly shaking head> or <thwack, thwack, thwack> (That last, Faber, is a damn spanking, which you have surely earned recently.)

if Jaap's links jumped to a commercial filled website, I'd agree.

the WIKI attempts to collect the common wisdom. links to it should be viewed as linking to another thread on this website. no more, no less.

the beauty of the WIKI is that it organizes the information, making it easier to find... and it leaves out digressions like this one!

The difference is between whether the resource already exists, or whether it's still being created.

If there is an existing article somewhere, or the wiki has an existing page on it, I think linking is totally appropriate.

If the page isn't there yet, it's probably better to keep the discussion here, to avoid the risk of carrying the discussion over to the wiki. These forums are a great resource, and BASE WIKI in no way intends to compete with that.

Discussions needs to happen here. Then, when threads die down, we can consider to take the useful and lasting information out of it and move it over to an appropriate page on the wiki.

My two cents... I'm sure there will be some wrinkles that need to be ironed out in the process.

it wasnt to diss Jaap at all i think he has a great web,i know he knows that i mean that

I know exactly what you mean, and for the tenth time, I don't want to sleep with you Faber!

...

belive me you wont be abel to sleep.. or sit for the next few weeks after that..cut your hair and ill get another belif

good to have you back

I started BASE jumping with a clapped out Cruiselite when you wanted a canopy with a few hundred jumps on it to soften up the slider down stuff. Finding a Peggy, Raven, or Unit with three hundred jumps for 300 bucks was the Jenny in the Barn to early BASE jumpers.

I've jumped more than a few demo BASE canopies from BR that probably had a few hundred BASE jumps on them. These canopies lead the life of a rental car and BASE manufacturers get valuable data by watching how they hold up. I would think if this fellow bought a single generally accepted BASE canopy and put 150 slider up skydives on it, he would still have a viable canopy for the next hundred BASE jumps.

In the old days we always put a 1000 jumps on a square before even thinking it was clapped out. The modern BASE canopy has more in common with those old war horses than some smaller and more modern wings that have line trim problems at 250 jumps. With a big docile seven cell if the trim is off you just learn to lean a little more in one direction and that's the end of that . . .

NickD
BASE 194

look at that lingo! you're just trying to mess with Faber, aren't you?

So I sent a PM to Moastwanted, but then thought about it and figured I should post it here just incase I said something stupid:

Here is what I did:

I bought a Raven 2 that's 218 square feet (it had about 7 jumps on it when I got it and was used as a reserve up to that point) I put about 75 jumps on it, and then got a Spectre 170 (also a 7 cell).

The key is to fly 7 cell (why? Because the flight characteristics of a 9 cell are way different), and practice the Canopy Control Drills! You can find those listed on several sites such as BR, possibly Apex, Vertigo, Australian BASE Association, etc...

Have fun skydiving, but as soon as you break off from the group, switch to BASE mode. I still do this on every skydive:

1.) Practice the most effective track possible (there are relaxed tracks which are more stable but less effective and tight tracks that are more effective but possibly less stable. You have to find the sweet spot)
2.) Pull from the track (roll the nose on your pack job if you know you will be doing this)
3.) As or before you are pulling pick you'r heading on the horizon
4.) Try your hardest to correct for that heading while the deployment/inflation is happening
5.) Once you have corrected for your heading simulate a 180 (i.e., double rear riser and snap one up)
6.) Now simulate a 90 right correction and 90 left correction (you have now killed 2 birds with one stone, you practiced some important shit, and you did your canopy control check)
7.) depending on your altitude practice various inputs toggle, front and rear riser, combinations of the above (knowing how your canopy responds to every kind of input WILL SAVE YOUR ASS one day when shit don't go right on a BASE jump)
8.) Set up for your landing without looking at the altimeter, and if your DZ let's you every now and then drop a Frisbee from under canopy, and make that you target, or have some one toss it into the landing area when you are about 800 feet off the ground, so you have to set up for it (you are simulating going for the "Out" landing by doing this
9.) Approach your landing with breaked turns, and learn to fly your final in deep breaks (caution: learn the limits of your canopy before doing this close to the ground, you don't want to stall yourself in, or get a surge that you don't have time to level out of in time for a safe landing
10.) Find the CRW jumpers and BASE jumpers, and never stop asking questions. Once you are competent, do CRW lots of it! It has been the best teacher for figuring out how to maneuver, and use the combination of inputs under canopy
11.) Go do ground crew for BASE jumps, you will learn a lot by watching, and it will show your future BASE crew that you are committed, and not just a yahoo looking for the next rush. Ask questions, always, always, ask questions. The only stupid question one is the one you don't ask!

So if any of that is bad, just say so... I have always been a beginer and always will be!

Tommy D

hey tommy (and all the others),

thank you again for your helpful posting - one question to the raven-spectre-switch: what was wrong with the raven? is it true, that the raven is so old-school, that you better not use one as a main-canopy (reserve?) any more? was the spectre new or used?

looking forward to your reply.

thanx!

mostwanted

Nothing at all wrong with the Raven, it's fine to use as a main. I just wanted a sportier canopy, but still 7 cell.

I bought the Spectre used with about 150 jumps on it.

I still have the raven, and I am considering putting it into my currently unused Velcro BASE container for a water rig. Again absolutely nothing wrong with a Raven... The only complaint I had with it was it didn't flare all that well, but that could be a function of the break setting, or the fact that I was a beginner and just didn't time the flare correctly. Probably the latter.

Tommy

an which of both is more similar to a base canopy? ("sportier"=?) this would be the main-requirement, wouldn't it?

PS: are both canopies ZP?

two more questions to the community:

1. what is your opinion about this one:




http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=849452#849452



2. flying which 7-cell (as a main-canopy for skydiving) would be most-similar to flying a base-canopy? (for training)



raven, spectre,...
new or used (up to how many jumps?)
a (used) base-canopy

hi nick,

thanx also for your helpful reply!

as i am not speaking english that well, i wonder if the following line you posted some days ago says that it was good to fly an old 7-cell (e.g. used raven) (on skydiving) to train for base or that it was no good idea to do so.

can anybody help to avoid that i misunderstand this. thanx.

Before my first jump course, I was told that a SuperRaven (and the 'super' part was important) would fly very close to the way a FOX flies (FOX is a common BASE canopy).

I picked up a used SuperRaven III on eBay for US$150.

Lou

hey lou,

thanx for your post!

...and what do you think now (as a base-jumper) about the SuperRaven? Is it really that close to a Fox or are there better options? How many skydiving-jumps did it have when you got it? Would you do it again?

mostwanted

Yes, it flies like a FOX. I haven't flown any other F-111 skydiving 7-cells, so I'm not sure if there's any better options in this regard. I suspect it's as close as you can get, since quite a few people use SuperRavens for BASE. In fact, I'm going to convert this one for BASE for water jumps and the like.


I have no idea. But for US$150, how could I go wrong?


Of course. It was the best thing I could do to prepare myself for flying in the BASE environment. The only other thing I wish I had done was practice with the line-release mod, because that was the only part that "felt funny" when flying the canopy after my first BASE jump. Having the steering lines free and not going through guide rings was pretty a foreign feeling to my skydiving arms.

Lou

hey lou,

again very helpful. thanx.

two more question to the Raven:

1. was this your first and at that time only skydiving-rig?

2. i contacted a local base-jumper (rigger, i think aff-instructor, former base-mentor/-insturctor, base-gear-dealer) and he warned me that it COULD maybe be 2 disappointing years if i really focus on a base-canopy or raven 100% at skydiving (=practicing for base) in the next 2 years: a big, heavy and not very freefly-friendly container with such a docile canopy could bore me over the years...

...i unfortunatelly can only afford one rig at the moment...

...another "problem" he mentioned was, that i could maybe not go skydiving on (more) windy days, because of the bad gliding-performance of such a docile canopy. i could maybe "often" not reach the DZ anymore...

he suggested some canopy like the PD spctre - it should be more sporty he said - but would this be wise, if i wanted to train for base?

(oh my god, my english is so bad - sorry!)


i am looking forward to any comments. thanx.

m.w.

PS: i hope the local base-jumper i contacted is not offended if he reads this postings - i appreciate his help very much! but on the other hand side i would like to hear more than only one opinion to that question...

No. I normally jump a Sabre2 170 (9-cell, ZP, semi-taper'd) in a TalonFS. Faster canopy with very different flight characteristics. I bought the SuperRaven by itself and then put it in a borrowed student container at the small DZ where I jump.


The Spectre would be a fun canopy to fly, but it won't perform like a BASE canopy would.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to pick one of those up and use while you're skydiving. You're going to be skydiving for a couple years. When you're ready to pick a date for your BASE first jump class, grab a SuperRaven or a used BASE canopy and do another 30 to 50 jumps on it focusing on BASE canopy skills.

Please keep in mind, I did my first BASE jump only a little over a year ago and I'm by no means an expert.

I'm just reporting based on my experience preparing for the sport.

Lou

Agreed that the Spectre does not perform like a BASE canopy, but it's still 7-cell, I can practice BASE emergency procedures, and it is relatively forgiving with regards to flying beaked approaches. It's funny a bunch of people at my DZ are always asking why I am not swooping in, or approaching in full flight... I just smile!

"1. was this your first and at that time only skydiving-rig?"

YES! :)

@ tomdancs: yes - spectre or raven?

hmm, now i am a little bit confused...

what's different to a base-canopy?

what is not different to a base-canopy?

what do you mean with "emergency procedures"?

is "practicing emergency procedures" the most important skill to learn before base-jumping?