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its a strange morning this morning and i had some wierd dreams last nite... this one might be a bit sensitive so please approach with an open mind..

consider this hypothetical situation....

you and a recently aqquainted jumper are at one of his/her objects, not bros, just recently met aquantainces.. you exit first, 350 ft 2 seconds hh, on heading, flare, yee haw.. you look up to watch your newly aqquired friend over-dely and impact the gravel at line stretch

no vitals, and no previous discussion "just in case"..

so... what do you do?
call the cops and ride it out?
do you take thier rig off, then call anonymously?
just bail? (i hope not)

i dunno exactly what would be appropriate, and hope that i never have to know, but was just wondering...

assume that you dont know any personal info sohrt of a name and basics.. dont know family,friends or even thier fone number..

Hello,
Why do you have to ask?
Do you feel you lack good ethics?
Why would you ask this diverse set of lunatics?
Did you think you would get a consistantly straight answer?

Do what is right.
Avery

That's a tough and sensitive subject to discuss online or in person. I know many jumpers have attempted to address it with their fellow jumpers (just in case).

Personally, I wouldn't want my friends to hang around and get busted if it were me. Just find a payphone and report it.

In my opinion, there is no excuse for not discussing this.


I would call 911 for ambulance and police, and then ride it out. That's the nature of the game we play.

However, if (and only if) it was agreed in advance that an everybody-splits pact is in effect, I might consider splitting. Some people are forced to jump this way, because the results of getting legal trouble would be disastrous. That's understandable and if all parties involved agree to play the game this way, I don't necessarily see a problem with it.

I have never done one of those jumps, and if the day comes that I do, I wouldn't be surprised if I said; screw the pact, and stick with my friend.

Another important thing to note is that it is surprisingly hard for laymen to decide whether or not somebody is dead. What if your friend was only unconscious and able to recover if only you had gotten an ambulance there in time? You'd be surprised at how messed up the human body can be and still recover.

There are stories in BASE history about jumpers leaving another half-dead jumper behind. Sometimes they are later rescued by other people. (Let's not bring up specific examples, lest the thread degenerate).


Why would you jump with this person? It takes two seconds to share each others BASE in-case-of-emergency phone-numbers.

Not everyone wants to discuss it. I will pretty much always ask new jumping buddies if they want to give me an emergency contact number and the majority don't. I don't see it as particularly important anyway, knowing exactly where you are (so you can direct emergency services) is the important thing.

Gus

That is something to be worked out ahead of time. Some people simply can't face arrest, because of priors, a sensitive job, or a spouse that hates BASE. Personally, I would never leave anyone behind be they injured, hung-up, or dead. But, I do understand people that will and have no trouble with it as long as I know beforehand. On larger urban loads where there are several jumpers and a ground crew we always work out who stays and who blows if the worst happens. There's no use in everyone going down.

Especially since after a death the authorities can go on a jihad, and while you know the cause was something tangible like a funky opening and an object strike, the police, park rangers, etc. can and often do start throwing around manslaughter charges and the like.

I know the above sounds cold, and there are always people that will say don't do the crime if you can't do the time, but sometimes the consequences of being caught are so out of touch with the reality of the "crime" it's a necessary precaution.

NickD
BASE 194

If the dude is really absolutely dead (like an open skull with half of the brain on the ground) then ito me it really does not matter, really. I'd take his rig off, call 911, and leave.

If he is still alive or not dead, then I'd to the impossible to keep him alive, call 911, and wait; if I get arrested fuck it.

The key here is to know if the person is really dead.

I agree with Nick, certain things MUST be discussed ahead of time.

wouldn't there be a risk of being charged for homicide, destruction/dissimulation of proofs etc ??
Don't know the legal term...

Rule Number 1 - unless you are 111100000% sure the person is deceased, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to leave another human being there without help. Otherwise, you are selfish scum. This is just my opinion of course.

Think of it this way - what would you want people to do if YOU were the injured person?

If the penalty in that particular area is too harsh for you, you have no business being there in the first place. Go to one of the staged events instead. And I certainly do NOT want to be your jump buddy if you would leave me for dead to prevent a $1000 fine and some court time.

r.e. escaping penalties. I think that if "the time" is potentially very serious given that the "supposed crime" is not serious, escaping the harsh penalties is a reasonable thing for a person to do. But do not leave a potential life behind unless you are sure. The cops should be chasing more important things in this world, not some people just having a bit of fun. Alternately, they should not whinge about begin under-resourced if they chase jumpers.

Some points:

- to be better able to assist you in the decision of "dead or alive", get some training. EVERY jumper should be first aid trained AT A MINIMUM. I don't mean the weekend Perrine Br jumpers. I am talking about the independants that jump a variety of sites, especially in remote areas.
- Make sure the family is notified.
- etc.

busy - gotta go

Same here.. I've done ground crew for several of my friends, and in most cases this was discussed..
The first time I did it, my friend told me to bail if anything happened.. "I don't need to drag you into this, you don't need to get in trouble with me"

If something would have happened though, I dont think I would have bailed. Granted the site was public enough where I "could have seen it happen and checked on him as I was walking by"

I would have a really hard time leaving a friend behind..

Why do you think they don't want to give a number? When I'm about to share a potential life threatening experience with somebody, I don't have a problem with giving a useful contact information.

This might mean the difference between the police getting in touch with my parents and telling them my "parachute didn't open", or a BASE jumper talking to my parents giving the complete story, sharing it with realism and understanding and potentially even a few anecdotes about the amazing adventures and life we've had, right up until my very last jump.

I don't think one can underestimate the difference a messenger can make in such a situation.

as in definatley dead... no two ways about it...


this was the biggest thing i was wondering...
do you remove the rig and take it w/you so as not to associate base w/ thier passing
.....or.......
do you leave the rig so it IS associated w/base and "friend" isnt considered a suicide...

certainley a dilemma..

(and i would never leave someone behind unless they are for sure, 100 percent deceased...
period....)

I've never pressed the point with anyone so I don't know. But I would guess that for a lot of people it's a knee-jerk "I'm not going to go in so I'm not going to discuss it" type thing.

Gus

...
well said...respect

>>I "could have seen it happen and checked on him as I was walking by<<

We've briefed this course of action, but if me, and I heard a policeman laugh or say something disparaging over a brother or sister lying there dead, I'd surly blow it by saying something . . .

TVPB,
Good points, but remember it's something you have pre-agreed to, and yes, it's sad it has to be that way, but it just is . . . The dynamic of this argument is changing as more legal sites become available, but there really is a "dark" side to BASE jumping and this may well be it.

Back in the day when I didn't jump with anyone I didn't know really well (at least most of the time) this wasn't much of an issue. I'd never leave a friend. Today, people call me on the phone wanting a building jump and I've never met them before. In that case I will do all I can to help them, but "they" called me. Do I still have to take the chance I wind up in all kinds of legal troubles for what is essentially a stranger?

Ok, I'm sure I wouldn't leave even a stranger behind, as just the fact he BASE jumps makes him my brother, but just for the sake of argument BASE is a sport for big boys and girls, and in some cases it's still aerial bank robbery. Some crews will stand and fight if confronted, while other crews know it's every one for themselves. Look what happened to "Dead" Steve when the Air Force banished him to Saudi Arabia after he was caught BASE jumping. Look at what happened to Keith Jones after Susan's El Cap fatality. Look at what happened to Chuck Sweeny who almost went down in history as a potential Presidential assassin. When a fatality is involved you can be charged with manslaughter but never convicted and it can still follow you around for the rest of your life . . . If somehow you got involved in something like that you'd have serious problems the next time you met a pretty babe in a bar and she spends $50 on background checking you . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Call me a snob, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable jumping with those people. What can a comment like that imply about the rest of their approach to BASE?

Oh well...

I recently made a jump and used some buddies (non jumpers) for ground crew. I advised them of the possiblities and what to do in case of emergency. However, I don't believe they were ready emotionally for what could have happened. As it turned out I had a cliff strike. No serious injuries, but the sight and sound of me hitting the wall and the scream of pain, freaked them out. Later they told me they were not cut out for this and I also learned that I should not put them or anyone through that unless they completely understand the possible consequenses. I believe they were more shaken than I was.

You bring up an excellent point! I asked all the people that have ever groundcrewed for me to have a look at the BASE fatality list. This summer, climbers have taken me to several remote bigwalls to check their jumpability. Each time I made sure they were aware of the risks of BASE. It may not be likely, but the last thing you want is permanently traumatize somebody, or have a situation where everybody panics.

In fact, some of my closest friends would love to groundcrew. Yet, I'm not letting them because they can't convince me they can confidently handle a bad situation.

>>"Admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof"<<

I always heard that one as, "Admit nothing, deny everything, and make counter accusations . . ."

Still sounds good, though . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I call your attention to a skydiving incident that occurred at Quincy in 1997. Dead Mike was most assuredly dead when the ambulance left, driving slowly without sirens or lights.

When he came back to life the lights and sirens came on.

Except in the case of decapitation, you just can't know for sure, so the first thing you do is call for help, and then you do what you can until help arrives.

Most issues are not black and white; this is one of the few that is.

rl

I see where you are coming from if you doing your exit count and your acquaintance/friend asked you for your “Next of Kin” contact info… But if you are not 3 seconds from exiting, I agree with everyone else, there is no reason not to discuss these scenarios/preferences. If someone can’t discuss these topics, then they have no business BASE jumping.

I personally will not jump with someone that is simply an acquaintance to me, especially high profile and technical jumps. I have personally been in two contrasting situations when shit hits the fan. The first situation being that everyone overcomes the challenge smoothly. The second situation with me cursing all the way to turn myself in because the rest of the crew was arrested and my car was in seized by the cops. The whole reason the first situation went so well is because we discussed every aspect of the jump prior to ever standing at exit point.

I have also been unlucky enough to witness a close friend die on a BASE jump. Because I don’t jump with just acquaintances and that we do discuss every aspect of what were doing and what were getting into, I will never have to guess if my friend’s death was a waste or not…

So long story short… I will never be in a situation of leaving someone behind that is hurt, dead or alive, because I will never jump with someone that cannot discuss BASE or cannot accept the consequences of every jump that they do.

I’m gonna have to agree with Jaap and Nick on this one. I would definitely stay with my fellow jumper and ride it out. If it were a close friend or even someone new, it would never cross my mind to up and leave them behind regardless of degree of injury. Even if they wanted me to avoid the legal trouble in a pre base discussion, it would make me feel terrible to just leave them behind. I’ve formed some pretty close bonds in skydiving and one in particular even more so though our starting BASE together. I look at our community as an extended family so how could I leave a family member behind.

If it were someone I was not very familiar with, I would think it would be common sense to have a pre jump discussion on contact info for just in case times and experience level. I got some jumps with two experience jumpers a few months ago and one thing they did was to have my “just in case” number be the last one I dial on my cell so they could easily get in touch with someone if something went bad by just hitting redial.

Now here is an addition that might at least alleviate some legal trouble for someone that stays behind. If possible I would at least try and get my gear in the car, given to someone that leaves (if in big group) or stashed somewhere and say I was just a bystander or watching the jump. If a jumper needed CPR or something obviously I would say screw it and attend to their needs but if possible I would do that.

I have no problem with leaving a confirmed dead body and alerting authorities via a pay phone. This is frequently a standard agreed-on in advance protocol. However, removing the rig is a very bad idea - it probably will bring a criminal charge by itself. A bounce will be treated as a crime scene, you do not want to touch anything.

And of course, never leave if the death is not absolutely, positively confirmed.

bsbd!

Yuri.

From a legal standpoint, if you are going to stay behind with a fallen jumper, you would be better off not to make a false statement to authorites. If you blatently lie in a report about a serious injury or fatality, you are probably likely to get in more trouble than they could ever have truely pinned on you from the original incident.

You should(I would) tell the authorities the fallen jumpers name and specifics, but tell them you(I) will make no statement about the incident without your(my) attorney present. Then you(I) can exercise your 5th Amm. right against self incrimination during your (my)statement.

Editted out the I's since I've yet to BASE...

Point well taken, Yuri.

However if they find out who the deceased was jumping with, rig or no rig is going to get messy.

My thought was that if the rig is not there, then they might cut it short and assume suicide instead of launching an investigation that might lead to nearby DZs and the opening of many cans of worms...Not a easy call indeed...

Not at you nicknitro, but in general. 70% of the jumpers I saw In Norway had video. add this attachment you all to this question.,
take care,
space

A bounce is a crime scene - taking the rig is tampering with evidence. Making an accident look like a suicide may save "The List" from getting another number - big deal. It would also bring grief and turmoil to the families of the deceased jumper. There may even be implications for life insurance pay-outs that don't cover suicide but do cover jumpers for accidental death. By removing the rig you just may cost the jumpr's next-of-kin many hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Don't do it. It serves no point. It's a crime.

g.

I'm with Gary on that one. We must let the chips fall where they may. Because we shine most of the time the truth can never hurt us.

NickD
BASE 194

avenfoto,

I just wanted to thank you for posting this question... It's been really interesting to see so many viewpoints!

I seriously doubt a rig could be removed from a body without leaving forensic traces of tampering, and you'd probably even leave evidence of your person as well.....ok, maybe I've been watching too much cable CSI...

But as also mentioned, even though protecting BASE is a high priority for most of us, taking the rig off a dead jumper is probably not the way to do so. Tampering with a crime scene, grand larceny, obstructing a death investigation...these are not light charges. And the insurance aspect is valid; I don't know of any life insurance policies that cover suicide, and each carrier has it's own rules about parachuting activities. The loved ones left behind don't need to be further traumatized by a supposed "suicide" or a messy media circus because a friend tried to cover up the BASE jump.

Personally, since I have no criminal record, no priors, am not on probation, don't work for any government agency, or have any other reason to hide from the truth, I'd stay with the fallen jumper. I would hold his/her hand and see if I could sense anything of what might be occurring on a spiritual level and face the authorities with as much peace and calm as possible. How we handle these types of situations is an excellent opportunity to show the authorities and public our true selves and begin to redefine how our activity is viewed and accepted. Why are the authorities afraid of letting us jump in the National Parks? Perhaps many of them are afraid that if our friend died in the meadow we'd just split, leaving the destroyed body lying there for some family to discover on their early morning hike.

Now that BASE has come out from underground (sorry Nick!) it's time for us to consider how our actions augment that trend. Do we want to look like careless bandits just out for a good time? Or do we want to look like a brotherhood of people that find freedom in jumping and are caring and responsible adults with integrity and ethics?

I'm grateful to have learned from the original BASE generation, and I'm also glad to be on the wave of where BASE is heading in the days and years to come. The discrimination we suffer is not just based on non-jumper's natural fear of falling, we have also given them fuel for the fire with some of our past responses to these situations.

It's up to us to give "them" a different view of who and what we are.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Peace,
K

I agree with Karen !
When I decide to start to jump with another base jumper, I accept in this precise instant the risk to my friend may to death or injured... otherwise jump alone!
I'm waiting the rescue team with my friend death or injured;
Just my opinion!
#726

Call the cops and ride it out. As taught to me the most experience person on the load always stays. If there are others on the load, they can make a getaway with the gear.

I personnally could never leave anyone behind. Being in the military has made that resenate in my mind more. I will take the arrest, fines, and court. I can make more money, I can not however replace my concious. I will always stay and help however I can.

Bryan

If I jump with you, I'm not leaving you period.

There's no way. We're in it together until we're drinking beer and watching the video. Even if you're dead, I will sit by you and wait until someone shows up.

second that...if youre dead then ill still drink a beer with you and show you the video...until the cops turn of course

interesting thread worthy of a bump

This ^, if necessary to get away at all, but I'm not sure it's the police you want to call. I suppose it depends on where you are.

Call Jacoby & Duncan!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYlva3o0rMM

You can bounce if you want but I'm not a selfish prick so would stay.

I'd put my gear away, take the camera off his helmet, and call the emergency line and be a witness for a police report. I can say I was just passing by and saw it all happen. I'm absolved of any wrong doing and they only have to deal with his remains.

What if you road with your buddy to the object. What if the cops search your ride and find your gear, or worse the camera. And a plethora of other what ifs. It's best to just be honest.

A guy I know who knows another guy said he always follows these steps on illegal jumps:

1. Always take two cars.
2. In case of an accident, one person sheds gear and sends it with all non-injured jumpers to leave the scene in one of the vehicles.
3. One jumper (now without gear) stays with the injured person and claims to have been along for ground crew purposes.

Seems to be the best blend of "run away" and "stick around" that I have heard.

In 2015 your cell phones will give the authorities all the info they need. Leaving the scene only looks suspicious and creates more trouble. The police will view it as a challenge to bust your arse even harder.
Removing rig = tampering with evidence.
Removing camera = tampering with evidence.
If you tried to tell my family i suicided off that object they would never believe you.
Have your "in case of emerg deets" discussed and readily available.
I really hope no body dies jumping this year...but i doubt it

I'm in the United States. Am I being detained? I do not consent to a search, am I free to go?

Happy Belated Birthday, Devil Dog!

FYI, you can legally be detained for however long it takes to conduct an investigation if there is reasonable cause to assume you are involved up to 24 hours. If you then become someone of interest or identified as a suspect they can apply to continue the detention up to 96 hours or until charged. I love it that a couple stupid viral YouTube vids makes people think they can out smart the fuz.

As far as this whole Bounce ethics thread...if you care about keeping your gear and not getting busted, more than staying with your comrade, alive or not, than maybe reevaluate why you jump. If someone goes in on an illegal jump, and you chose to jump with them, than you chose to ride it out. But maybe that's just me. I love the people I jump regularly with more than I love jumping.

+ 1. If you aren't prepared to go to prison for your mate then maybe you shouldn't be jumping with them.

I think you are confusing the issue by not using correct terminology. There is 'reasonable suspicion' and then there's 'probable cause'. Police can only detain you briefly if they have reasonable suspicion that a crime may have been committed and you were involved. They will investigate by asking you and any witnesses questions which may or may not lead them to probable cause. Are you required to answer any of these questions? NO!

Probable cause is where they can and will detain you for lengthy periods. Probable cause requires them to be able to articulate what crime you have committed and not just a suspicion of your involvement in a crime.

Most times police only have reasonable suspicion when they approach 'suspects' and need more in order to detain them. That's why they ask all kinds of questions... to get you to implicate yourself. I think it is in our best interest to always ask if we are being detained and if we are free to go. If they say we are not free to go then they must, at that point, be able to articulate what crime has been committed and how we were a part of it. If they cannot then they do not have probable cause and therefore not enough to hold or arrest you.

Now since we are speaking of a fatality then just being there as a 'witness' is opening you up to more in depth questioning but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to answer anything. Should you cooperate with their investigation? I would say respectfully decline at that time. Let them know that that you are aware an investigation will be happening but you wish to withhold your statement until later. You do not want to incriminate yourself, they cannot make you and more importantly they have a dead body to take care of. I do agree with you about re-evaluating your jumping if your primary consideration in a situation like that is getting busted. If you are accepting the possibility of death or injury then arrest should be easy to accept.

I did not read your post. Summarize and I'll get back to you.

I think you are sadly mistaken.... any peace officer can detain you for 72 hrs for ANY REASON THEY WANT.


http://www.newser.com/...al-as-a-witness.html

Land of the free, who ever told you that is your enemy !

I think that if you would read into that case there will be reasons why they are keeping him. In the article they say they don't think he would show up for the trial to give his testimony. In the statute that deals with this (18 US code 3144 and 3142) it states reasons that a material witness can be detained. My thought on why they are holding the guy in your article is that he is an illegal immigrant and they are concerned he will flee the country and not provide testimony against his son. Just a guess since I don't have the time to read it right now.

To summarize:

You think there is something called 'reasonable cause' in law, probably because you don't like to read thoroughly.

Reasonable cause does not exist in law.

You are confusing Probable Cause and Reasonable Suspicion.

I hope the small sentences help?

Thanks bud!

As a bystander I still will not answer any questions. going to jail and being charged are two different things. If I go to jail over something then so be it, I hope we get to share a cell someday. I will however cover my ass and not answer any questions invoking my 5th amendment rights and get in touch with my attorney immediately.

Yuri and others,
Short of the very specific case of half of the persons brain being on the ground, it is nearly impossible to tell if a person is actually going to make it or not in most cases. Even an open skull can be potentially be managed.

NO VITALS = CALL 911/BEGIN CPR - it very well may be the difference between life and death
severe bleeding from an extremity = apply tourniquet then check for vitals

I personally believe that everyone should have basic first aid and CPR skills, and it seems an especially important skill set to have if engaging in high risk behaviors.

Here is a 5 minute video covering CPR basics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cosVBV96E2g

The only correction I would make to the video above is not to shake or jostle the person too much to check for responsiveness due to high probability of spinal injury. A couple of hard pinches should suffice.

Cheers,
A concerned EMT