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Have you ever tried to close a rig when you don't have a pull up cord? The first one's easy, then you pop that one trying to get the second one, then you wrestle the flaps as closed as they can get, then the little closing loops play hide and seek, then you realize all the laces in every pair of shoes you own are gone, then you try rolling up strips of duct tape...
Finaly I used one of the cords from a multi bridle off another canopy (hot tip) and all that took way longer than closing the vision I used to have. I miss that rig.

I mean seriously! Yonkels!

coat hangar, Needle nose pliers, any long, small enough cord, even if it's attached to something.

You can put it through all the grommets, through the closing loop then back through the grommets and then close it.

Rolled up plastic shopping bag, hmmmm... what else? I'm not quite bored enough to experiment with every thing in reach yet.

Duct tape... very clever! It should have worked.

I always have a pull up cord tying my packing clamps togeather

so if i have my clamps i have my pull up cord. also have another pull up cord tied to my rapidlink spanner. which is in my stashbag.

but iam sure i will come across a day when i dont have one. i have used shoe laces several times on my skydiving rig =)

 

You're quite the wuss there Abbie

I've seen LOADS of velcro rig jumpers get a "Gear Check" and loads of pin rig jumpers get a "Gear Check" as well.

Using a pin rig is NOT rocket science

 

Hey, I do that even when BASE jumping...well I have been recently at least.

I just want to see a BASE RW 4 way turn some points.

Have you watched the BASE RW scenes by Loic and his crew in Crosswind?

I keep a pull up cord in the pocket behind the MLW on all my rigs (even the velcro ones). It's saved me twice at exit points when a friend giving me a pin check managed to pop the pin accidentally.

In general, though, I agree with Abbie. Velcro rigs are lower stress for 90% of the jumps done in the U.S. today. I'll even argue the flippydoos. With a properly closing velcro rig, subterminal aerials aren't an issue at all.

I'd say that almost all the newer jumpers I see underrate velcro without any real reasons.

So, if anyone is looking to sell a used Vision...

deleted. author eliminated my confusion by editing his post.

Jimmy,next time make the loops longer then you can close it easily

As Tom.. my rigs also always have a cord somewere,if i lost the 2 once in my pockets..

Abbie,the day you get another collur than pink on your main pc,i think people would listen more to you

I soon have a pin harness for sale,would you like to buy it Abbie?,oh i guess not,you wont fit

Yes. But I had written it wrong. I edited my original post.

It should have read either "...velcro rigs are lower stress..." or "...pin rigs are higher stress..." I think I was posting too early in the morning.

HHHmm. Keeping a pull up cord with the rig. You guys are wicked smart. I'm gonna do that from now on, but those bastards are pretty difficult for numbskulls like to keep track of. I'm the "hey could I use that pull up cord?" guy that gets really annoying.

Velcro rigs are so damn simple, I still like 'em.

I'm down to be a four way videographer whenever a team gets put together. I've been getting dizzy filming these twisty-flippy guys lately.

Been doing that a lot just when i was too lazy to pull a cord from the pouch. It is quick and easy, if you aren't a complete dumbass.

Maybe some pepper spray stimulation will help? Apply it to your crotch for better effect. On that note, maybe you can use your schlong as a pull-up cord? It should fit nicely through the grommets

bsbd!

Yuri.

You could use one of your shoe laces as a pull up cord.

Sorry ya were without on that jump.

But this brings up a good point....

Personally, I take a fanny pack with me on all jumps keeping an assortment of goodies.

I think there is another therad that talks about what one should bring in the "pack"

I keep a couple pullup cords, a knife, a wind meter, gloves, mini LED light, rubberbands, tailgates, break cord, and a raplink. Sounds like alot but dosent take up much space at all and is invaluable if in need.

my gargoyle has a small pocket on the inside of the harness behind the 3 rings.... I keep a pull up in one side there at all times and never use it to pack (unless I am at home alone), so I always have a pull up on my rig at all times. Also on the otherside I have a small red LED so if caught in pitch black I have a small red light that I can turn on in my mouth as I close my container with my "always there handy pullup"...

Back when I started jumping - 1970s - only girls and sissies needed pull-up cords. "Real skydivers" just routed that piece of bungee cord through the grommets and stuffed a bit of folded bridle through the loop.
They were called "cheater cords." .... usually made of gutted 550 cord. Mind you, that was long before curved pins were invented.
Hee!
Hee!
It was not until the 1980s that Florida yuppies started using binding tape to close skydiving rigs.

I think you're being a bit presumptious here...not only do you not hear about the vast majority of BASE jumps made, but if the pin rig is working as it's designed there's no reason you'd ever notice if there was a benefit or not, right?

IMHO, *most* jumps benefit from pinned rigs. Personally, I'd rather have a pinned rig over velcro on my back for most every jump I do, lower or higher, especially:

terminal
wingsuit
antenna/tight space among others.

I will admit though, that there is something much more comforting in hearing that velcro peel on those <300'ers...the pins popping somehow don't strike that same nerve.


Jumps have been made safely on Velcro rigs for years, and they will continue to--but the pinned rig adds a margin of safety I, for one am not willing to give up (in terms of purchasing a rig, that is). I'd have no problem jumping a velcro closed rig for certain jumps, but all things being equal *except* the closing method, I'd choose a pin-closed rig every time.

As far as those jumpers who are "crying about pin checks," keep up the good work. Be responsible for yourself, but 2+ pair of trained eyes are usually better than one.

edit: to say that next time I'll read all the posts in a new thread before posting

jimmy,bring some soft glue,others dont want to use that,and hey if you only use a small amount of glue it should come open right

Prior to pin closed BASE rigs we did okay with Velcro. Its user dependant and almost foolproof. We weren't doing aerials on today's level but plenty of jumpers are doing gainers, tracking hard, and going long, back in the stone age of BASE.
A whole generation did Yosemite with Velcro rigs and I saw one manufacturer who tested them from airplanes (no tersh and a couple of terminal back loops thrown in). The later versions of Velcro rigs that tucked the leading edge of their shrivel flaps in for tracking are even better. Yes, Velcro rigs, at high speed are essentially mono-directional but when used that way they work fine. I've seen premature Velcro container openings whilst climbing around on things, but has anyone ever heard of a properly packed and maintained Velcro closed BASE rig busting open in the later stages of a freefall?

One of the reasons (and there are a bunch) manufacturers got into pin rigs is they'd now had Velcro rigs in the field long enough it's obvious not enough people are following the rule on replacing the Velcro every 75 to a hundred jumps. Velcro closed BASE rigs, even though they work so well, had served their purpose. And that function was to carry us along for years until we figured out how to make pin rigs that worked in the BASE environment. In any event you can buy a nice new Velcro closed BASE container and still have yourself a grand BASE career, thank you very much . . .

Remember, the whole nexus for Velcro closed BASE rigs is the skydiving rigs of 1983 are too complicated for short freefalls. Simplicity has always been our guardian angel in BASE jumping. Let's be careful to not get too far away from that like I see at the drop zone sometimes. Everybody is running around looking for batteries because some gizmo is on the fritz . . .

NickD
BASE 194

>>That Vision died a noble death. There still some peices of it left if you want to genuflect over them!

I can't help but remember jumping with someone last year (I won't name his name) who was doing gainers with a velcro rig and I can't help but remember seeing the velcro peel off of his back and watched the canopy start to come out of the container while he was in the middle of his rotation before he even pitched his PC. Hmmm ... definitely not fool proof.

Yeah, that's a problem. If they aren't on the Fatality List it certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen. Yet, if your friend lived isn't that the very definition of foolproof. I wrote "almost" foolproof" because of #72 on the List . . .

NickD
BASE 194

was the velcro worn or new?
was the jumper flexing in a way that helped pull it apart?
was it closed in a rush?

I think velcro rigs can do a fine job. the user simply must know their equipment and watch for it's potential issues (velcro OR pin).

I do equal numbers of jumps on both types of system...prefer pins for the sub 250 range just because i dont like too much hang time on low jumps...something that i always "feel" i get with a velcro rig.

i was a victim of my own laziness/stupidity with a velcro rig a few years ago when i did a running exit from a 360 foot E and my velcro burst as i was at the point of no return..seven months later i was back jumping...the velcro burst due to its age and my vigorous sprint...so now i get it changed every 50 jumps.

Gear checks on velcro are a good idea too but not infalable...on that jump i asked someone for a check...he said i was good but on examination of his video some time later the velcro was already seperating and he didnt spot this even though it was right in front of him.

if you think your velcro is good for a few more jumps then it probably should have been changed already.

We say the best time to change your Velcro is right now . . .

NickD
BASE 194

"Everybody is running around looking for batteries because some gizmo is on the fritz . . . "

LMAO

So true, like the eyes don't work anymore to gauge height or something...

Well, did ya'?

Hey Nick,
It's gonna be fun for us to agree on something. It looks like we both have enough exprience to charish the the simplicity/purity of the BASE rig in contrast to the skydiving rig. This post got started not because I was out in the "field" without a pull up cord, but because I was in my apartment packing up, and I realized at the last moment that all my pull up cords were at the DZ. It took me fifteen minutes to pack my rig and fifteen minutes to find a way to close it. Which left me reminiscing about my old Vision container. Not that I would go back to purchasing velcro rigs, but I never had to worry about my velcro Vision. And believe me, I've been on my back on plently of terminal BASE jumps.

After closing, I used to pick up my vision by the shrivel flap and twirl it around in circles. That was my terminal "gear check." And for low delays I would just peel the velcro a bit around the edges.

But whatever. No doubt pin rigs look cooler once they're closed, and that is beyond a doubt the key decision when purchasing a rig: which looks coolest at the exit point, cuz they all work just fine.

late,
jimmy

p.s. Nick, next time you're in CA, I'd love to make a jump with you off the antenna formerly known as "cadillac."

What's the benefits?

Packing is easier! I'm a lazy packer -- i always close the upper pin with my canopy folded just once, and than i just put the upper fold (small one) into a half closed rig.
Climbing is easier. I prefer to climb with the rig on shoulders, not with the stash-bag. It's a bit safer to climb with the pin rig than with velcro.)
Terminal, tracking, aerials, colisions, linked stuff.... bla-bla-bla....
Finally it's COOL LOOKING. My canopy is one-size bigger than my container. My rig is small, it's shape is perfect and it looks nice. I prefer to be good-looking in my own eyes. Just to feel myself ready and able to do anything i want to do in BASE.

I've seen only one cool-looking velcro rig myself -- that was SOFT COCK that belongs to Ray.
All other velcro's i've seen looked a bit "old-style".

Ever tried French lingerie?

Let's see, what do I have in my pockets or on my person right this minute?

1) Dollar bill...roll lengthwise and fold in half.
2) OB plug...rip out string.
3) Pony tail holder...remove from hair, cut once.
4) Necklace...remove pendant, use chain
5) Keys on long lanyard...remove keys.

Then it's just a matter of deciding which item I don't care about sacrificing.

Oh, and #2 came from my pocket not somewhere else.

Peace,
K

Because that would be gross.

I love my pin rig! I just got one of the new Apex DP’s and it is a beauty. I am also a little OC so hell would probably freeze over before you caught me packing without a pull-up cord or packing tool. The DP also has a pocket on the left side near the 3-ring for pull up cords where I keep two.

As for the pros and cons of pin vs. Velcro, I went with a pin rig for a few main reasons. You don’t have to worry about a pin rig opening up on a climb, “safer” emphasis on the “er” for aerials which I do plan to do in the future, and they seam to be easier to close when packing (when you don’t forget your pull cord. lol). Talking to one of the veteran BASE jumpers who visits my DZ on occasion but no long BASE I believe, told me a while back when I ask which type of container to buy, he told me, “If you ask someone like me who has been jumping Velcro forever and I am definitely gonna tell you to get Velcro. It works and why changes something that you know works. He said but both containers are safe and will do the trick. You just have to decide which you like and what works best for you.”

I suppose that's why you think BASE is the reason to cut your fingernails short.

rl

I hear this a lot. Can someone please explain it to me?

I've climbed with 3 different Visions, quite a bit. I've _never_ had one of them come open, or start to come open, or even slightly worry me about it coming open.

How are people seeing the velcro rigs come open during climbs? What's causing it?

Thanks for any help!

Well I would think not more so just opening up because of nothing but if you bump your rig or rub up against something, the Velcro could more easily come apart than your pin coming out (pin cover helps protect the pin better). That’s what I would say. But I always climb with my rig in a stash bad so that helps too.

Did you see the video for NC jumpers on Skydivingmovies.com. That one guy had his pack job open as he was getting to the top of the A. I am at work so I can reference back and watch it but I think it was Velcro and he caught the velcro caught on the back of the platform or something.

the antenna dayblazing video shows a top pin popping on a 2 pin rig

on skydivingmovies it's Eastern_NC_Rampage_2005.avi

it looks like it might of been very loose and just got pushed up as the jumper was climbing and subsequently bumped through the square hole to the top of the platform. Of course I could be 100% incorrect.

Coo, Yea I wasn't able to look at the video so I guessed. But yea either container can open due to that type of thing but I would think with pins and a pin cover it would be easier to prevent than Velcro that could peal easily.

or fucking hardcore....

I know I've had an issue before when inside a caged ladder with a velcro rig. Thankfully, the side-effect of velcro is the distinct noise when the shrivel flap starts to peel. I was able to stop climbing and deal with it before it came open.

pope