Basejumper.com - archive

If you have to buy a new canopy wich one is your choice?
Dagger, Rock Dragon, Flik, Ace, Mojo, Black Jack, Troll...
And why?

I'm a newbie BASE jumper but I can give one piece of info. I recently purchase and received my new gear. I was going to buy a dagger but changed to a FLik because Apex told me the canopy could not be vented. They said if you plan to do sub 200 jumps they advised me to go with a FLik or fox which can be vented.

Anything thing else I have no input for ya.

Edited for Spelling.

Dude, every person will tell you that what they are jumping is the shit. Ask which truck is the best!

Said that...I'm not a fan of vents/valves. To me they do help the openings on canopies that do not open so well...FLAME AWAY! On top of that no matter what everybody says vents and valves too will reduce flare power...FLAME AWAY! I don't buy any of the crap that they make a canopy flare better otherwise you would see the PD swoop team jumping V-lo with valves!

Are they a gimmick? No, just a fix IMHO and a good BASE canopy should not need any fix.

I know there are tons of very experienced BASE jumpers who swear by them (the valves) you know what? I don't care! I want a canopy that opens well without them.

I jump an ACE and I would not trade it for any other canopy on the market including the Black Jack. I take its openings against any other canopy on the market, seriously. I just love the thing, really! I have to post a video of a recent 0.5 delay because it's a work of beauty (the Ace's opening of course).

Mine has the composite Z-po fore skin that I think helps a lot in term of openings, penetration, and landing.

What I like about it beside that it opens like a dream is the flare. I really get away with murder with it. The canopy also responds well to front risers and hence it can be swooped decently, you know given that it's a 7-cell pig!

The Ace has a great control range as well and it feels "sporty" but it still behaves very well in slow flight.

The Mojo is still one of the best all around canopy, way better than non-vented Foxes, Flikes, Daggers...

The Ace is just better in all senses and again the Mojo is still a great canopy with the coolest name of all. I'm thinking about swapping my Ace labels with the Mojo ones just for the fuck of it!

I cannot comment on the Rock Dragon at all.

Also, a nicely tuned Raven will serve well 99% of the BASE jumpers, FLAME AWAY!

Finally, I am willing to bet that there are less than 50 BASE jumpes in the whole world who might take advantage of valves. If you are just getting into BASE get a conventional all-around BASE canopy. After 500-1000 BASE jumps you might have some insigts on valves...

I'm going to disagree with a lot of what you posted.

I have owned and jumped FOX, Ace, and BlackJack canopies. I have jumped Mojo's.

The only difference between the Ace and BlackJack is the vents. Other than that, the canopy is identical in every way except the name.

The Ace has super clean openings, but they're not as clean as the BlackJack. I feel that the openings of the Ace are as clean as many other vented canopies. I love the Ace canopy.

The Mojo is older technology. The mojo is still a great canopy and will serve you well, but there are options available that are clearly better than the Mojo. I would prefer a Mojo over every non vented canopy except the Ace. I would prefer an Ace over a vented Fox.

In my opinion, the BlackJack is more versatile than the Ace. It flies just as fast in full flight but it's more stable in super deep brake/stalled approaches than the Ace. You will never get the Ace to land/flare like a BlackJack after an aggressive stalled approach to a tight landing area.

I think some of your conclusions are wrong.


Why do you think that?
-------------------------------------------------------

I think all BASE specific canopies currently manufactured are appropriate choices for a first BASE canopy.

Where personal decisions may need to be made are in regards to the type of objects the new jumper will be hucking themselves from. If you live where there's nothing but terminal antennas, and you don't intend to jump solid objests with serious strike potential (and you aren't a dirty low-puller), then the swoopiest BASE canopy will be just fine.

If you will be spending most of your time below 300 feet on solid objects with tight, boulder filled landing areas, then that same canopy may not be the best choice. You'll definitely want something with secondary inlets.

To the original poster. Rather than ask which canopy is the best, try to find out as much as you can about the individual flight characteristics of each canopy. Then, try to match the canopy to the type of jumping you'll be doing.

Stay alive... educate yourself.

OK, I'll bite....

I find your views on valved and vented canopies quite strange for an experienced jumper.

I only have 150 basejumps, 133 of which on 2 different Blackjack 260s and 17 on a vented and valved Rockdragon 266.

Most of the local jumpers here jump Mojos, Aces or Blackjacks, so whereas I have never jumped an Ace or Mojo, I have seen others jump them on the same load and so I feel I have gotten a glimpse of how the canopies compare.

I love my Blackjacks, they have been good to me and allowed me to walk away from a wire strike under 200 ft and 2 seperate 180's from 330-350 ft underhung objects....

I am convinced the vents and valves helped in both these cases.

I have also seen a very experienced jumper have the most violent 180 I have ever seen, slider off on an ACE, followed by a cliffstrike and a helicopter rescue....

I have not experienced a loss of flare power on the Blackjack compared to my friends on Aces.

I did however find the Rockdragon to have a lot less flare than the Blackjack, although the openings were good, based on my limited exposure of 17 jumps on one.

as for the 'less than 50 basejumpers in the whole world who might take advantage of valves', I guess it's just some sort of strange coincidence that in my 1.5 years of active jumping I have seen a handful of them and the jumps that they could have used valves on....

my 2 cents

cya
sam

I wrote a reply then checked the thread again. There's no need to post it. I agree with Dexterbase completely on this subject.

Put the nose of a canopy against the wall, the vents will certainly come in handy.

Initial bottom skin inflation takes the same amount of time between the Ace and Black Jack. The Black Jack has the edge and is controllable sooner. It loses less altitude during the final pressurization.

I don't see any reason not to have vents on a canopy.

What you can get away with using, is different than what is better. It's a lot easier putting my Black Jack into a really tight landing area in 10 seconds, than it is putting my old Raven or Interceptor into the same landing area in 6 seconds.

Hope that helps

Really???

I used to jump one of each back to back on a regular basis and never experienced a "loss of flare power"

Odd.

By this do you mean that the blackjack inflates faster so with the same delay youwill gain 4 seconds of canopy time (I know this is an arbitrary number). Or did you mean it is easier to put your blackjack down in 6 seconds of flight vs 10 seconds of the older canopies?

I meant that the Black Jack in deep brakes will stay aloft several seconds longer than the other 2 canopies mentioned, allowing more time to maneuver and sink in to the desired location.

gotcha.

maybe they dont know how to flare correctly?

and 6lines further down...
im callinig your post doublemoral and ironic..
you dont want a BASE canopy fixed but choose to mod. it by zp were most BASE canopyes only is made by F-111

how did you get to that conclusion?
I think your wrong and one way tracked looking at your choice of canopy and cant see behind of that.. hopefuly that kind of desissions wont get you hurt in the furture as you dont want to take advetange of the newer canopyes...(the Flik,Rock Dragon etc generation) i do agree that BlackJack is a rock on canopy just to let you know that im not one way tracked...

If so i would have been dead today.. freefalling the sub 200ft area or regulary sub 250ft you gonna need the vents/valves.. Not all people choose to jump of terminal objects whith great tracking experience...

I think the only thing your post shows is that you swear by Asylum(i like em alot aswell,example i only use Asylum PC´s) and that your only looking at the objects arround you.. as of in europe you might would have been thinking otherwise...

That were my flames from your post..

Back to the tread..
Any canopy whith Vents/valves are from the "newer"generation and should take you a long way to start whith.
What do your local crew jump? ask them why... You might be better of jumping the same config to start whith so people can learn you how it works,before moving to somthing they dont want to touch..

If i should buy a new canopy tomo it would be a Flik,i like Apex canopyes and has a Fox and a Flik,ive got used to the way they fly and i like it that way,however from what i saw a Black Jack cant be a bad choice either...Ive heard(not really seen)that Trolls and Daggers tend to fly faster than any other BASEcanopyes,i dont like that opiton in the BASE envioment.. if i want to fly faster i probaly downsize(i never flew a Troll or Dagger so this is from what i heard and saw..

Whilst I'm not advocating the use of non-BASE specific gear, regarding this statement;


It's the "Super Raven" (as distinct from the Raven) that can be of some use in BASE... and only for slider-down jumps. Putting a slider on ANY Raven is dangerous.

g.

Nicknitro71
I would like to know how many jumps you have on each type of canopy (non vented, vented, etc...) and what kind (terminal, sub terminal, go-throw)?! Also how many jumps in total you have now?!

Your post sound very one sided, and therefore I would like to see the facts which support this.

From my experience, there is only handful of base jumpers in the whole planet who have tried most of the canopies on the now days market enough time to make fair comparison. IMHO, jumpers buying the canopies based on advice given by their mentors or friends.

Take care

I love my Troll with MDV. Has always opened on heading for me and has great forward speed if you need it and flys well in breaks and has great flair. Then again I am like what everyone is flamming about its the only canopy I have jumped. Good luck with choosing it won't be easy but there are people out there that are pretty objective also look at what some of the best and brightest are jumping that are not getting them for free.

I might have come a bit too strong on this one BUT I have the impression that the initial poster is looking for advices on a first canopy. If you think that everyone should start FF objects under 200' after they have completed a FJC then you are absolutely right that they might need a valved canopy.

I know many of you got tons of jumps and are very current and experienced and are able to take advantage of valved canopies, I personally am NOT.

The opinions I stated are mine and reflect my jumping and they are opinions not facts. I don't FF anything below 240 becuse I'm a pussy. When I go lower than that it's either SL or PCA hence I don't need a valved canopy.

I see too many jumpers that they buy the greatest valved canopy money can buy and then they refuse to jump anything below 300'! So what's the point?

Also I see too many jumpers taking unnecessary risks because they are jumping valved canopies thinking they can get away...

Even if you do a go-n-throw from a 900 foot cliff, you can find yourself in a situation where the vents and valves will be very beneficial. If you have a 180 and fly into the wall, the nose will be closed off by the rock face and the canopy will collapse. Once the canopy starts to collapse, you're going to quickly lose your ability to turn (or control at all) the parachute. Then, you will be sliding down the wall at an unsurvivable rate of descent.

If you have vents, the canopy will still maintain a degree of pressurization from the bottom skin and you will actually have a fighting chance to get the canopy turned and flying away from the wall.

Between the jumper with three BASE jumps, and the seasoned BASE canopy pilot with 1200 jumps, who do you think is going to need that extra bit of safety buffer more?

If you aren't able to appreciate the above, you either do not jump solid objects, or you're not fully aware of the risks you're accepting. If not, then your risk analysis/management process is seriously flawed and needs to be reviewed.



edit:typo

uh, yes really.

like I said, I have NOT experienced the alleged 'loss of flare power'

I just wanted to clarify that I stated that the Blackjack has the same flare power as the Ace.

This is very, very true.

Let me add that there are a large number of those people who basically think that whatever they've always jumped is the best--without really trying anything else. I can't count the number of people who I've met who would swear that their Blackjack/Troll/Flik/Dagger was "the best canopy made" but when pressed, admitted that they had never really jumped anything else. They bought a particular canopy because that's what their friend/mentor/instructor had, and then they decided it was "the best". The funny thing is that the friend/mentor/instructor often did exactly the same thing, so we see "generations" of jumpers who jump whatever their "forefathers" jumped, with none of those generations ever trying a different set of gear.

In general, I agree with you, but...

I've seen quite a few jumpers who only plan on doing terminal jumps, or span jumps, but have purchased vented canopies. If you have unlimited resources, that seems fine. But there are people who will simply never make a jump from a solid object, and for those people it does seem like a certain amount of wasted cash to fork over the extra couple hundred dollars for bottom skin inlets.

I agree, but if there's a possibility that you will be jumping an object where the vents are important, the investement in the vents will be far outweightd by the cost of buying a vented canopy for that jump (or the cost of the outcome of a strike followed by a canopy collapse).

I think if you have a canopy that is not vented and you're presented with the chance to jump a solid object, you're far more likely to use the canopy you have, rather than the canopy you could have.

I've jumped non-vented canopies from solid objects before. There is only one canopy currently made that I would feel comfortable doing this with now. Given the choice, I would always choose the vented one for that type of jump.

I love vents (and owe the good people at Apex a beer) for that very reason. I'll go one better, though this is mostly conjecture on my part. Perhaps somebody could support or correct this.

Another important factor in avoiding and, failing that, surviving a 180 on a solid object is the tuning of your deep-brake settings. Time is good, and speed at impact is bad. My realization, this weekend, was that vents/valves allow a little more leeway in tuning the deep brake settings. The transition to the dreaded deployment stall is, I think, less severe on vented canopies, so that one can more easily (and repeatably) achieve low to no forward speed on opening.

My very humble suggestion is that anybody who is not jumping exclusively spans and terminal walls invest in a vented and valved canopy.

The above should be taken with the following grains of salt, in particular: (1) I have only a few jumps on an unvented canopy, and it wasn't mine, and the DBS wasn't tuned; and (2) on the only 180 I've had, circumstance and a response which was less than optimal resulted in my using the vents to walk (uninjured) away from, but notably not avoid, an object strike.

Gotcha... I misunderstood what you meant.

Is this first-hand experience or theory? And I mean: did you hit the wall and your vented canopy didn't collapse? Or did you at least see it with your eyes? Did the canopy stay manoeuvrable?

I would love to belive this, but...

I saw 2 cliff-strikes with my eyes.
1 st non-vented, canopy collapsed instantly, jumper died.
2nd vented and valved, canopy collapsed instantly, jumper died.

I have never jumped a vented canopy, but I would like to try one to see if I can find benefits for sinking it in, stall turns, faster pressurization etc.
And I know there are many people who have hit the wall and live to tell the story.
But I think it is a very bad idea to think that a vented canopy will save your ass once you start hitting the wall. Imho your only chance is to avoid object-strike by all means. If a vented canopy helps you doing that because it stays more controllable in a stall or near-stall then that's excellent and my next canopy will be vented, but that's a different approach.

736
(2) on the only 180 I've had, circumstance and a response which was less than optimal resulted in my using the vents to walk (uninjured) away from, but notably not avoid, an object strike.
------------------------

That's because you are not using your Vents. Your Canopy is using your Vents. You are flying your Canopy and making it do your Bidding.

I watched someone when I was growing up do Hundreds of BASE jumps on a Ragged-Out old Pegasus. He did not get by with LUCK or a Vented and Valved wonder machine. He got by with all those jumps because he had Raw-Skill and He worked with and Knew his Canopy. He loved that piece of shit Pegasus. In return it did EVERYTHING he asked it to do. In the Best and WORST of circumstances.
-
Which goes to advice that everyone should be giving mr. 1k7.
Just BUY a BASE Canopy and forge a relationship with that canopy. A canopy pilot that knows and understands everything about his canopy.
A pilot that has his BASE Canopy tuned to His liking and Know How To Fly It for all it's worth.
It DOES NOT MATTER if it is a beat-up old Pegasus or the most expensive custom BASE Canopy. With all the vents and valves money can buy.
You had better be it's Master. Jump it. Learn it.
-

Chad,

I'm not in disagreement with you however valves can give an inexperienced jumper a false sense of security.

There are things more important than valves that need to be taken care like customized DBS for instance.

Next time you are over the potato just carefully watch some openings. I've done it. Several times I've seen canopies surging and back flying really bad due too DBS. Other times they start cruising like scuds after opening because the DBS were too shallow. What do you think is worse a nicely set conventional canopy or a valved one with the DBS all fucked up in case of a 180?

This thread reminds me of skydivers with 3-400 jumps downsizing to X-braced canopies because they want to swoop. X-bracing like valves have their place but IMHO there are things that are much more important like proper canopy setting and solid exiting and canopy skills that you need before jumping objects where valves can make a difference.

I stated before there are very experienced jumpers who can take advantage of valves but I cannot see the advantage of buying a valved canopy with 0 BASE and 150 skydives...false sense of security IMO.

As for my risk assessment, I've already stated that I'm a pussy : no FF under 240' for me any time soon, you know I jump an Ace after all

________________________________________________
As for my risk assessment, I've already stated that I'm a pussy : no FF under 240' for me any time soon, you know I jump an Ace after all
________________________________________________
Nick, I would say - you are smart! I bet that Ms M. is one of the reasons too

Guys & Gals, what ever canopy its on your back the Brake seting is the MOST important thing for proper opening.

Vents helps in some types of jumps, while for terminal are pure waist and extra bulk.

Personally, I am using 265 Troll DW MDV for subterminal ( 4-7 sec) and for slider off jumps. Any other stuff 245 TrollDW is on my back.

Also, Tard and roll over are much nicer w vented as well.

I'm jumping MDV TRoll 225 (which is actually 245), ~0.6 wind loading.
Why I like it?
1. I'm doing only camera jumps in BASE. And I prefer to hold on short distance (if possible) and to pull above the jumper, not on the side (sometimes the the jumpable sector is not wide enough:) to track to the side). Havin' a vented canopy I am sure about my openings. Even if I f***d up a pulling movement of my performer a little bit and trow PC at the same time... My Troll is a big red "STOP" button.
2. Slider-off. Even then I have a 42' AV PC on 90m B, there all the crew prefer 46' I'm relaxed. Logic: if a couple of my friends jump it with old sh**ty CReW canopies it means that I can do twice as longer delay.
3. Terminal: I just bought a small mesh slider!:)
4. Flare: i"ve done a couple of 10's tree- or stone- landings. Never ripped my canopy. Never got scared of extra landing area picked on the way to regular landing. I know that with that canopy it's possible the land soft and safe on any tiny spot you like.
5. Heading!!!! The openings heading is perfect!
6. Offheading: it's easy to fix offheading with that canopy. Close or not, risers or toggles.... it's easy.

I love my MDV Troll!

Who is this Robibird guy and what does he know about BASE!!!!

i dont think that people should start ff sub 250ft as they start however why buy a canopy that cant do the job you might want it to do in the furture?

Like buying a car whith out AC knowing you might taking it to a hot dessert at some point..

asking a canopy whith vents not to stay inflated while pointing towards a cliff sounds harsh to me.. but if you say you cant use the 2.nd chance of having a inflated canopy on top of your head then...

why wouldnt you give facts as a advise? if you know many people does somthing you dont as you dont think the risk is worth it,then you shouldnt advise about such an subject..

in case they change their mind whith in the time of their canopy life they are cabeble to do so...

some does most dont.. they push them self first.. i have seen jumps made by unvented canopyes that i wont dare to do by my vented but i wouldnt do it on a unvented either..

i hope you´ll reconsider that oppinion..

Not any time soon or not until I buy a vented canopy

Can you tell us how many jumps you have on that canopy, and how many jumps you have on which other canopies you are using as a basis for the comparison?

It were about your vent choice

Dude I'm happy with my Ace but I'm known to change my mind.

In 1996 I made my first BASE and I said that I will never do it again, yeah right.

I said few times that I will never jump anything less than 300', yeah right.

Now I say I will never FF anything less than 240...you see where I'm going?

As for the vent, if I'm facing a wall I can always pick up my legs and fart at the thing, that should give me some back propulsion via a nicely developed valve...

ha ha let us know if it works

Hey Faber, you might actually want to consider using this method. I know for a fact you have the fart power for it.

why dont you pick up the phone as i call you?

you´ve got a voicemail

Yes. I have ~130 jumps on my Troll. ~60 on other canopies i.e. CReW canopies, russian BASE canopies, Mojo and Croiseligt (?). The first REAL BASE canopy in my list is my Troll.
Not enough to compare, i know, but I'm not comparing here. I'm just telling about why i love MY canopy. Or... how I proved that's a good canopy without comparing with any other... or what I'm doing with my canopy thinkin' it's good for it.
Easy: jumping on my previous canopy i knew it's opening were BAD. And it's made the limits. No matter how thankfull I was for saving my life.... Jumping my Troll i know that's a good canopy. And the limits range is wider now because that's not a canopy that makes it but my mind. I know that now I have the "extra space" between the point there the limits of my mind are and the point there're limits that my canopy has.
Even if I'll do something super stupid and push my own limits it won't be that unforgiven and I will have a chance to survive because of that reserve "extra space".
It's based on my experience. I'm touching that "extra space" sometimes. Not smart, there're the "close calls", but also the reason to like my gear.

Not as an advice to somebody who's gonna make a choice, but just a personal opinion.

HAHA!!

thats great!

[reply.
This is very, very true.

Let me add that there are a large number of those people who basically think that whatever they've always jumped is the best--without really trying anything else. I can't count the number of people who I've met who would swear that their Blackjack/Troll/Flik/Dagger was "the best canopy made" but when pressed, admitted that they had never really jumped anything else. They bought a particular canopy because that's what their friend/mentor/instructor had, and then they decided it was "the best". The funny thing is that the friend/mentor/instructor often did exactly the same thing, so we see "generations" of jumpers who jump whatever their "forefathers" jumped, with none of those generations ever trying a different set of gear.

That is how I purchased my first canopy. My first jumps were on a vented fox. That is what my home crew had. Therefore I purchased BR gear, a FLIK and Vertex. After about 100 jumps I was able to make a few jumps on a blackjack and was truly amazed. I my opinion it was just a way better canopy and then I saw the PPRO.... An amazing container. I still think the FLIK is a good canopy, but just like the Blackjack better. I then purchased Asylum and don't see a reason to ever switch. What is funny is that my home crew is now buying Asylum after I let them jump my blackjack. I think that shows what might be the BETTER canopy per say. All of the locals in my area have at least 100 jumps or up to around 300 and have always had BR/APEX gear. Now they are starting to phase to Asylum. Hope that helps.

Bryan

I'm sure most if not everyone trust robibird, but I would like to second that.

I tried a McConkey doing what Tom A called the french method (toggles in hand, not stowed) and totally botched it. I'm used to having my hands on the lines/end of risers when I do McConkeys (so I can control line tension), so by instinct I put my hands straight up when I launched. Did a full flight McConkey. The opening was nasty. I had a good launch and as everything was tensioning (with me under it) it bowtied and turned 90 left. I lost a lot more altitude to pressurization than I have with DBS. I don't have many but on my other 7 McConkeys my body was about 50ft below the exit at controllable pressurization. On this one It was about 90-100ft. I know because of the height of the object and the approximate height I was from the water when I had pressurization.

I also second the vents being great for unpacked (and great for a bunch of other reasons). I did a 200ft McConkey on an Ace and it was 6 seconds from launch to landing, about 4 second canopy flight (partly because I surged it in). Same McConkey with my BlackJack was 15 seconds from launch to landing, about 13 second canopy flight.

When I first started BASE, even the Mojo was still a myth.
I learned on Pegasus, Cruiselite, and Raven.
My first BASE canopy was a brand new custom colored Raven III.
That canopy was the bomb, I got very many jumps on it.
Over the years I've had many Mojos, an outstanding canopy,
but I have also owned Foxes, Aces, and a couple others.
I have also had the opportunity to try other technology from BR & CR,
but me personally, I do not like the valves and vents.
Recently when faced with the need (ok want) of a new canopy,
the only choice that I felt comfortable with, since I can't buy a new Mojo,
was to go back to tried and true, I have a brand new (Pink) Raven III.
And slider up on a Raven has treated me quite well.

Fox with no vents.

Nobody mentioned the HACKER so far ???

I think that one is the best!!!

J.