Basejumper.com - archive

We received a small amount of zp from a manufacturer who claimed that they could not get completely zero porosity in their zp fabric unless they increased the amount of coating. All nylon destined to be zp is calendared (hot rolled to essentially squish the threads making them flat, thus decreasing the gaps between the weave) and then treated in various coatings to prevent the air from getting through the weave of the fabric. When you feel the fabric, it is heavier. Yesterday we were shown video of one of the pilot chutes, made from this material, used during a one second delay. The pilot chute was stowed and when thrown, hesitated in a cylinder shape for just less than a second. Once a little airspeed had built up, the pilot chute inflated normally and deployed the parachute normally. On an ultra low jump, this is not acceptable (most jumps for that matter). The same day, some Aussie friends were in town and happened to have the same material pilot chutes with them. One of the jumpers experienced the same phenomenon. At this point we realized that it was not an isolated incident and decided to notify all customers that may be involved.

At this point we're not sure of the exact cause, whether it is the additional weight of the fabric or the "stickiness" of the fabric, or a combination of the two. Currently, it appears to happen only when the jumper goes stowed and does a short delay (1 second). Regardless, we are offering a replacement of the pilot chutes made from this material. Please contact perris@apexbase.com to arrange an exchange.

HOW DO I KNOW IF I HAVE 1 OF THESE PILOT CHUTES? Luckily, we only made a small batch using this fabric. The fabric in question is either royal blue or gray and has a sticky feel. It would have been delivered within the past year.



Thank you,

Jimmy, Todd, and Marta

Apex BASE

Thanks for posting this.

I'm going to sticky this one for a while.

is it a batch of Vertigo,BR or both?

Well that certainly explains this incident. I distinctively remember asking Tom and Tedd about the pilotchute fabric when I received my gear and we all agreed it felt sticky and too thick. Tom Aiello pointed this out in this post.

I do not blame Vertigo or Apex for this. This is an experimental sport where the only person responsible for the jumpability of their gear is the jumper himself. I took a risk when I decided to use that PC anyway. It is up to me to deal with the consequences.

I am very happy that this notice has been brought forward. I've always had a nagging feeling that there was more to my incident than the Dead Jaap Pack and this certainly confirms this.

Do not use these pilotchutes! The post above says the pilot chute inflates normally once a little airspeed builds up, but I am now convinced that in the right context this material could lead to bigger problems. Again, do not use these pilotchutes, unless you want to see the ground approach faster than usual.

Thanks Apex.

p.s. I know I'm not posting on these forums anymore, but since I believe this was a large contributor to my near fatal incident, I take this more personal.

Just wanted to point out that I used such a PC at the Perrine, and it didn't inflate until 4 seconds after my pitch. That may have been combined with a sloppy-throw (although witnesses say my throw was fine) and a poor PC packing technique (although this is the technique that Vertigo taught at one point), but there is certainly not sufficient data to support the notion that such PCs will always inflate on time once airspeed is built up.

Jaap's incident is probably a combination of factors. It could be that the pilot chute fell into your burble because it hesitated, or the bridle not having enough slack didn't allow the pilot chute to reach clean air. Either way, no pilot chute will inflate if it is sitting on your back. I am not defending the pilot chute or trying to say that this is not what happened. But the jury is definitely still out on this one. I would use any of these pilot chutes handheld, without question. But that is not our call, our call is to offer replacement of any of these pilot chutes.
Jimmy

You would have gotten one of these pilot chutes from Apex, not Vertigo or BR as we did not have this fabric at that time.
Jimmy

Thank you for your willingness to stand behind your products, and to replace things that even might be a problem.

It speaks volumes about your character that you are not trying to hide the issue, but rather stepping up to try to make it right, and let everyone who might be affected know about it.

Just to echo other people's sentiments.

Thank you Jimmy for posting this. You guys are a class act and it's why I remain a loyal customer.

The BASE community, from the very beginning, has been blessed by a better than most realize gear industry. We are well into the second generation of gear builders and nothing has changed. Todd at Apex has always more or less kept a low profile and he even asked me once that while he appreciated it, "Could you please stop writing about me?"

At the risk of offending him again (sorry my Brother) I worked with Todd for years at Basic Research and knew him earlier when his company was T&T Rigging. Todd has a world class mind when it comes to gear and countless times I saw that mind in action. I sometimes gag a bit when I read something disparaging about a piece of gear and I don’t have the expertise (in some cases) to fully explain Todd's reasoning behind it. But, suffice to say while BASE jumping has big problems to face in the future (what's new?) could you imagine a BASE gear industry we couldn’t trust with our lives?

We're lucky, yes we are . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I have a blue pilot chute that I noticed to feel sticky when I got it. However I an not sure if it is from apex or not, I bought it from a friend of mine. He bought it brand new and only used it once. If you watch the bridge day highlights from last year, this would be the pc in tow jump.

ask your mate,he probaly know then

Hey dude..I say no worries to that! Hope to see you at the "chaotic bridge day" Pure madness

Jimmy,

Does the fabric come from the same source as Precision's fabric? I am asking because some newer Pecision's canopies have a very sticky/oily feel and the fabric does feel heavier. This is actually good in skydiving because new canopies with this fabric are easier to pack. This stickyness though goes away between 100-200 jumps. I'm just wondeirng...

No, you are probably referring to the S. African ZP, which does have that feel to it until it gets dusty. I have never seen any other fabric that has the same weight to it as these affected PC's , it is very noticeably thicker.
jp

Actually, I bet it is the same. My Xaos is made out of the same material. It has a thicker feeling and is certainly bulkier. It's because the fabric was made with more silcone coating. It was explained to me by Chris, that the first batch of that material was a mistake, but since it worked rather well in skydiving, it was re-ordered that way. Some of it probably made it to your shop.

Besides the additional silicone, it's the same ole ZP fabric.

What Tim said...It's funny that I had the same conversation with Chirs before sending out a FX for the mod, just few weeks before the accident

Jimmy, I know the feel of Galvanor and although thicker it's not sticky, just less slippery.

It would be interesting to know if the fabric comes from the same source as Precision's.

Is this still thought to be soley an Apex issue? A buddy of mine pulled pilot chute out of his BOC the other day and literally had to peel it apart to open it up. I know, I know, it should have never been stored there long term, at least in my eyes, but it's what he had done with it. Anyway, I don't want to cast any stones, so I'm not mentioning the brand of PS that it was, unless it seems like it needs to be brought to the publics attention.

Ganja

How long was it stored? How many uses on the pilot chute? Is it in new condition?

If it's in new condition, long term storage will definately cause ZP to "stick" together. New condition ZP canopies do the same thing but at 120 MPH it makes little difference.

I've never seen that before, but that could definitely be a factor. It has very few jumps on it.

Ganja

I always leave my pc UNPACKED until the night of the jump. The pc wants to be open, wants to be spread out, leave it that way until u need her to be tight.

along those lines, when I was younger and a boy scout, we were tought that you should leave your sleeping bag stretched out during times of inactiveness (sp?) due to loss of insulationg properties. And my t hought with parachutes (and pc's) being contained in a certain state could yield a hesitation that a jumper would not desire.

but, whatever, I dont pack my reserve every 120 days. (did I say that out loud) oops, whatever..

I'm hoping that everyone has seen this by now.

There's a copy in the safety bulletins section of the BASE Wiki, as well.

I'm going to unstick this one now.