Basejumper.com - archive

this nugget from Jaap's goodbye post:


I'd really like experienced jumpers' opinions on this.

I think using your comfort zone as a risk evaluator is a fundamentally flawed way of reasoning, especially at low jump numbers (like mine, or better yet, Jaap's).

There is a very real absolute risk factor to any basejump, that does not depend on your amount of skill, training, or physical attributes.

Doing jumps way outside of your comfort zone is never a good idea, as you might not be able to focus and do what is required.

And doing jumps well inside your comfort zone is arguably MORE dangerous than being just outside it, or on the edge of it, as complacency has a way of setting in and catching up with you.

Your own skillset, experience, equipment, equipment knowledge and physical attributes will determine how well equipped you are to deal with any particular jump.

One risk is not knowing how your own comfort zone, your evaluation of the risk and the actual risk of the jump compare.

Experience will increase your understanding of the relationship of the above 3, but you never really know and every incident/injury free jump only tells you were right on your evaluation of that jump or you got lucky.

I guess my point is that some people's comfort zones have a way of writing checks that their skills can't cash, so their ass end up paying.

do you really know how well calibrated your comfort zone is?

and do you really think staying inside it will keep you safe?

just wondering...
sam

I think when he said "comfort zone" it partially delt with "the vibe" and what also you are "used to" doing

IE: my fav object is 300 ft and I get a decent amount of jumps off of it. I am comfy jumping it, especially if the vibe is right. I am also comfy with taking a 2 sec delay off of it. The fact I am comfy does not negate the risk that is involved. BUT that being said, Things tend to go better in general if you are comfy, have the right vibe, and are "used to" a particular jump.

Being overly nervous on the other hand can do a few things such as make you climb down (nothing wrong with that at all); or the other extreme would to be so nervous that when you did jump you would be so overloaded that the jump could go really badly.

I do agree on the below statment

I believe that you can be more confident knowing your limits


I do not think he really used his comfort level as a total risk management tool... It was more of an overall generalization

Jaap, I wish we could hear what you have to say about this (poke poke)

Hello,
Maybe I am an experienced BASE jumper.
Certainly I have had some experiences BASE jumping.
I do agree with your assessment of the aforementioned "nugget".
When you get right down to it, the ONLY risk is the object or the ground.
Exceptions to that are remote, ie. another jumper, a bird, a flying saucer.
Mis-rigging, poor body position, lack of awareness, malfunction, etc., etc.
all still lead to the object or the ground.
If the real risk was in your mind, couldn't you just think:
survival without injury survival without injury survival without injury?

Avery,
I agree w/ you completely. Another thought I always contemplate while standing on the edge is obstructions! Sometimes (many times) there are objects in the way of my navigation to the landing area. The question now comes down to... on heading opening, and then flying my parachute to the intended landing area. This is most often my most pondered thought.
"In theory" and "don't screw up" plans often come into play.

Risk evaluation...? Too many factors to determine. We're all taking the plunge and coming out alive every time we live. Here's to another leap... use your head.

I believe your comfort zone is 100% of your risk level.
If you BASE jump, your comfort level of risk is outside most humans.Take it from there,Height, wind, gear, landing zone...
BASE is as dangerous as you make it, Luck is the wild card.
Cheers,
~J

And while you're stood there, pilot chute in hand on the edge of that sub150ft B, just remember that the real danger is in your mind. Oh i always find it useful to click your hanwag heels together and say the line "there's no place like home, no place like home, no place like home."

ian

In the context of his complete statement, I think when Jaap said "comfort zone" Jaap meant jumping within your own level of skills, experiences, and abilities. But I could be wrong.

For example, I can be really comfortable doing something well beyond my abilities if I just don't care about anything or anyone in the world. But if I have a real passion for life and many things that I want to achieve, my comfort zone will be different as I have a need to live long enough to achieve those things. Yet my potential skill level is the same in both scenarios.

RISK and its Management:

A given jump scenario has a fixed number of variables at any given instant in time. What do I mean by this? At 12.34.3872 pm EST the object has this shape, these dimensions, these wind patterns, this altitude, this humidity and temperature, these hazards, the jumper is in this condition, equipment configuration and maintenance, etc. Our individual ability to determine what each of these factors/variables are and what our responses/plans of actions are determine how well we can manage the risk. The more factors you ignore, the greater the risk becomes. And the more that luck plays a role in the jump as opposed to good management.

This all comes with experience, time, respect for the sport, realistic ability to assess ourselves and our equipment, etc. The mere fact that we discuss beginner objects and advanced objects emphasises this.

A beginner relies to some extent on the ability of his/her instructor/guide to provide much of that information. This is normal for most activities in life.


<<<<<<<There is a very real absolute risk factor to any basejump, that does not depend on your amount of skill, training, or physical attributes. >>>>>>>

I disagree with this statement. Assuming all the variables relating to the object are the same at a given instant in time, we can start measuring the risk at a certain level (i.e. we can determine a number to measure the risk). Following on from this, the final measure or level of risk for said object/jump is then purely related to the jumper him/herself and their equipment. The absolute risk is then very dependant on the jumper. e.g. If I have great accuracy skills, then a very small landing area is a little risky. But if my accuracy skills are pathetic, that same landing area makes the whole jump VERY risky.

<<<<<One risk is not knowing how your own comfort zone, your evaluation of the risk and the actual risk of the jump compare. do you really know how well calibrated your comfort zone is? and do you really think staying inside it will keep you safe? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

These are difficult to answer. I think knowing my comfort zone is not that hard to determine. My body tells me this - perhaps nervousness is the measure of comfort. But do I know if I am jumping within my abilities/skills/etc? I have a fair idea, but I will never really know for sure.

Good post!

Some might say, don't think, just jump. You do what is right for you.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

I understood it the same way.

he also mentioned doing the work up front. for him, that meant a ton of jumps practicing for all kinds of ugly situations. he actually tested himself on the worse situations he could create (off the safety of that bridge). he established his comfort zone this way.

sadly, I can't say I've established MY comfort zone as diligently.

others define their comfort zone referencing their quiet, internal voice. they know to give it veto power. while this too is quite good, I'm not sure Jaap ever wrote about it...

as for risks, yes many can be determined by the physical reality of an object. a confused, cluttered mind will only increase this risk level. a calm, confident attitude limits adding to the risk.

I think this is a good platform .... There is a risk in everything we do ...

Its like when people who never base jumped think that kjreg is a 3000 ft skydive.... Well it is in a sense....until things go wrong....then it is a full fledged base jump that you had better be prepaired ......

i try to look at it as ...Fear ...is being aware...terrifying...is when you should say no...

So the more aware ...the more focused....the more focused...the better the comfort zone...

after that ...it's to much information....just flow.....

just my 6 cents...

so if a stupied person whith no fear steps up and freefall 150ft its ok as he think he´ll be ok?

Nope sorry guys...

to MY oppinion you can only use risk manegement the day you KNOW for sure what you can or cant..

we all did jump were we said.."wow.. this will be close,but i THINK i can do it" then jump and evrything is fine,but if you had a 90 to your right you might be on vthe list today...
Does that mean that we mannegede the risk well?

What if you deside not to jump off a fine S which is 486ft high in perfct conditions as your too scared... is that good risk mannegement?

I know that i have more respect for the dude backing off the big safe S than me jumping off a scetzy object "thinking" ill be ok aslong.. bla bla bla...

if i think ill be ok on a jump as i have the newest tested gear will that then be right?
if i then add a 180ft ish freefall will it still be ok?
what if the winds are gusting from my left?

To me as i see if a risk is ok to me ill need to ask myself if i really want to jump this object now and in these conditions... why not wait for better conditions?
I know i can die on each jump i do think if this jump/risk is worth it to me and my family..
i know my family will support me to my grave and back,but do i want to go that far and make their feelings hurt as of this one jump?
Am i ready to die from this world,alone and never see my wife or kids again?
am i ready to put my kids in a place were they´ll have to Q,why i did that jump in case i dye?

its really complex and you´ll need to think of what the skills level you know about your self,do you want to push them? why?

if i after all that agree to make the jump anyway.. you´ll see me jump..

EDIT:
you´ll never see me preform a jump i wouldnt do by myself(solo),here i mean the jump itself not iff i need gc to get to a point or some one to pick me up.. thats also why if YOU get hurt on a object you´ll probally see me in freefall(or what kind of jump we preform)just after you..If i thourght before you jumped that its ok by me,and my mind hasnt changed as this snowstorm just cam in the middel of the summer,ill still make the jump...

NOTE:whith 250+ jumps on my back im not an eperienced jumper.. but i sure hope to live each day to one day be experienced..

Vandev - Kjerag never has been and NEVER will be a skydive. It does not matter how you validate/cut/interpret/justify/etc - IT IS A BASE JUMP and absolutely NO skydive that I know of bears even the slightest resemblance to it. Maybe if you had a balloon sitting just off the exit point at Kjerag you might be able to say its just like that particular skydive. But otherwise, IT IS NOT.

<<<<<<to MY oppinion you can only use risk manegement the day you KNOW for sure what you can or cant.. >>>>>

I beleive this is somewhat incorrect. When man first went to the moon, he was not 100% sure about ALL eventualities, and I bet there was a hell of a lot of risk management involved. Risk management is all about considering all possible scenarios and variables and developing plans or actions to prevent/overcome/respond to them. Industries use the hierarchy of hazard/risk control as one method to manage/control risk => elimination - substitution - isolation - engineering solutions - administrative solutions - PPE.

Potential problem analysis (PPA) is basically trying to work out all the possible ways that something can stuff up. The next step is to determine if you can somehow resolve the potential problems or bring them down to an acceptable risk level. If you can, then proceed. If you can't, you have to start thinking about walking away.

An individual can do a phenomenal job of risk management, or they can do a terrible job or totally ignore the concept. But in the end, we are all human beings constrained by our own personal experience, skill, and perceptions. Hence, can we recognise and manage every single risk? Probably very difficult to impossible for most mortal beings. But can we use risk management at all? OF COURSE WE CAN. And we all do. Its just the quality that varies.

e.g. "bugger me its windy. I think I'll do video from the ground".
"One too many last night, I might give the morning loads a miss".
"I'm not feeling 100%, I'll just do a flat and stable".
"Geez, the last guy that had a low pull comp with him got badly busted up, I think I might just settle for the silver medal".

These are all examples of risk management!!!!

You can do it Faber.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

what i mean is that if you dont know the risk of what your dooing you cant calculate the risk.

The man at the moon had alot of people helping him in this process giving him advise,but they didnt knew all the facts to begin whith,anyway he knew he easily could die doing that,and he thourght that it were worth it..

What im saying is that if your not awware of a danger on a jump,and therefore caluclate the risk to be ok for you and do the jump anyway,how would you think of that if you as a local jumper knows more about the site than your guest..(you cant tell evrything you found out about an object only the most important stuff).did that jumper then miscalculate the risk or did he calculate it correct from the info he had as he jumped?

If we could make the perfect analys of a jump people wouldnt get killed or injuryed the way WE do...
we probaly wouldnt be as many jumpers aswell..

That said i think some people starting a course at places as TF,were they can do alot of jumps in a short periode progressing in a way that i couldnt belive before i went there this summer,many of thouse new jumpers do gainers,mc conkeys and all kind of funny sh!t,but can they use that as they get back home to urban objects?Do some of them think they can anyway?
I think so...
then you can talk about a consept that twist peoples riskmannegement...

about Kjerag.. admit it.. it is a skydive i know for sure,why?
it involvs:
sliders
small pc´s
looong delays

that said i never were at Kjerag,im not even sure im going there(it dont drag me,and theres some loong hikes up there)

ofcourse risk mannegement is used all the time,skydivers and people outside "extreme-world" use it evry day.. even as they say they dont want to skydive.. they dont want to x the road,dont want to go out at nite etc etc...
Thats also why people dont understand our sports.. they calculate the risk too high that they want to take any part of it.. sadly some people who calculate a risk to be ok,dont respect other peoples riskmannegement as they say no...(perhaps as big a problem as the risk mannegement itself...)

Not to take up the old discuss about BD as it has been discussed before..
but there you can talk about some people doing a poor job of mannege risk calculation(not talking the orginicers here,but they have some of the guilt aswell).

no i didnt risk mannegede this before i posted

what i mean is that if you dont know the risk of what your dooing you cant calculate the risk.

The man at the moon had alot of people helping him in this process giving him advise,but they didnt knew all the facts to begin whith,anyway he knew he easily could die doing that,and he thourght that it were worth it..

What im saying is that if your not awware of a danger on a jump,and therefore caluclate the risk to be ok for you and do the jump anyway,how would you think of that if you as a local jumper knows more about the site than your guest..(you cant tell evrything you found out about an object only the most important stuff).did that jumper then miscalculate the risk or did he calculate it correct from the info he had as he jumped?

If we could make the perfect analys of a jump people wouldnt get killed or injuryed the way WE do...
we probaly wouldnt be as many jumpers aswell..

That said i think some people starting a course at places as TF,were they can do alot of jumps in a short periode progressing in a way that i couldnt belive before i went there this summer,many of thouse new jumpers do gainers,mc conkeys and all kind of funny sh!t,but can they use that as they get back home to urban objects?Do some of them think they can anyway?
I think so...
then you can talk about a consept that twist peoples riskmannegement...

about Kjerag.. admit it.. it is a skydive i know for sure,why?
it involvs:
sliders
small pc´s
looong delays

that said i never were at Kjerag,im not even sure im going there(it dont drag me,and theres some loong hikes up there)

ofcourse risk mannegement is used all the time,skydivers and people outside "extreme-world" use it evry day.. even as they say they dont want to skydive.. they dont want to x the road,dont want to go out at nite etc etc...
Thats also why people dont understand our sports.. they calculate the risk too high that they want to take any part of it.. sadly some people who calculate a risk to be ok,dont respect other peoples riskmannegement as they say no...(perhaps as big a problem as the risk mannegement itself...)

Not to take up the old discuss about BD as it has been discussed before..
but there you can talk about some people doing a poor job of mannege risk calculation(not talking the orginicers here,but they have some of the guilt aswell).

no i didnt risk mannegede this before i posted

My sig is taken from a post written by Mary Shafer Iliff, the wife of the now-retired chief scientist at Dryden and an aerospace engineer of no small standing in her own right (understatement). If you click on her name in my sig, it links to the post, but here is most of what she had to say:

You can't even predict every danger. How can you guard against a hazard you can't even conceive of?

I agree that the days of "kick the tires and light the fires" are gone, but insisting on perfect safety is the single most reliable way of killing an aerospace project.

I've been on both sides of the FRR (Flight Readiness Review) process for a number of aeronautical projects. Experienced engineers try to think of everything that can go wrong. But airplanes can still surprise the best team.

I've had to sign a form, certifying that to the best of my knowledge everything that we're going to do on a flight is safe. I've never seriously asked myself "What will I say to the AIB (Accident
Investigation Board)" because once one starts on that, the form will never be signed, the flight will never be flown, and the research will never be done.

But I have asked myself "Have I told everybody exactly what we're going to do and what the _known_ risks are and are we agreed that these risks are acceptable" and when I can answer that "yes" I sign
the form. That also answers the question of what I'd say to the AIB.

I'm not talking about abstract theories here, I'm talking about test pilots that I've known for decades. Believe me, I _know_ exactly what
the consequences of a mistake on my part could mean. The reminders are all around me: Edwards AFB--killed in the XB-49, Lilly Ave--NASA pilot killed in a crash, Love Rd--I _saw_ his burning F-4 auger into the lakebed, with him in it. But once I've done my best, like everybody else on the team, it's time to go fly the airplane.

As an aside, I believe this is essentially what Jaap intended when he was writing about "comfort zones."

rl

When working for NASA, we called it Failure Mode Effects Analysis/Critical Items List (FMEA/CIL). i.e. if something broke, what would happen? which one of these is pretty ugly?

unfortunately, the hardest part of the equation tends to be human factors. people simply don't act consistently or entirely predictable. stress and fear change things dramatically.

the human factors part is what makes BASE training so challenging.

personally, my favorite BASE jumps have been solo, no gc. fear and anticipation BEFORE the jump, complete relaxation and trust DURING the jump. it is far from an intellectual exercise and more spiritual.

true, it is easy to criticize and find fault in the previous statement. yes, solo, no gc adds a tremendous amount of risk and is ill-advised. unfortunately, the distraction of others, the presence of cameras, etc. has so far prevented me from achieving the same spiritual results...

I KNOW



I FEEL IT TO BROTHER.

Hello,

I guess I am a experienced jumper so I chip in ...

<< There is a very real absolute risk factor to any basejump, that does not depend on your amount of skill, training, or physical attributes. >>

-- I disagree with this statement. --

My opinion, there is always a risk (risk for injury or death) when you jump. I see allot of jumpers that trust theirs skills, abilities and gear to the extent that they actually think they are in complete control

I think control is a illusion …

As I see it, I will do anything (except for the safest option, not jump) to make my jumps as safe as possible, that gives me a better chance to get away with it. If you ask me on the edge “Flare are you 100% sure that you will survive this?” The answer would be “No … let’s hope for the best”

It is a game, a numbers game … my opinion … it is up to each individual to decide how many times they want to roll the dice and see if they can getaway with it, but it is only a matter of time. The house always wins …

I see you guys at the table, I am sitting down with the brothers and sisters that is already there …

PerFlare

personally, my favorite BASE jumps have been solo, no gc. fear and anticipation BEFORE the jump, complete relaxation and trust DURING the jump. it is far from an intellectual exercise and more spiritual.

unfortunately, the distraction of others, the presence of cameras, etc. has so far prevented me from achieving the same spiritual results...

____

Now that's something you won't here in any ol' risk management lecture... that's something you only hear inside of you. And having the courage to act on what your soul is screaming for you to do... well, I think that's what got us all jumping off stuff in the first place, right? The human journey of basejumping is (to borrow a quote) nourishment for the soul.

.

Hi PerFlare

<<<<<<<<<<<My opinion, there is always a risk (risk for injury or death) when you jump. I see allot of jumpers that trust theirs skills, abilities and gear to the extent that they actually think they are in complete control. I think control is a illusion … >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I partially agree and somewhat disagree. In the way that you see risk, anything we do in life may end up getting us killed or injured (my perception of what you are saying). In that sense, you can never be sure if that game of golf, that drive down the freeway, that restaurant meal, or whatever else you may be doing - could lead to your death.

Control is certainly NOT an illusion. Again, in the context above, you can never be 100% in control of anything if you look at the absolute worst possible scenario. But you can maintain a VERY HIGH LEVEL of control in anything you do. The mere fact that we have some humans who can excel at something and others who are absolutely hopeless at the same thing, indicates that some of us do have a higher level of control - and conversely, others have a lower level of control.

e.g. Roger Federer can blast a tennis ball from any angle back into a defined area of the court with the appropriate physics parameters. Occassionally, he does miss. If I tried to play Roger. . . . well. . . .lets just say that I would probably embarass myself. He has control, I don't.

Believing that you can NEVER get killed on a BASE jump is a detrimental attitude as it may induce such characteristics as complacency. But believing that you may be dead on every jump is not really encouraging/rewarding/realistic/healthy either. Why in heavens name would any sane person want to put there life at risk on EVERY jump and suffer the anxiety that goes with it??? Some like this, most don't.

Now, when you start pushing the limits of your skill and the development of the sport, sure, death is a consideration and an imminent possibility. But most mortal, sane human beings aren't in it for the afterlife. It is for this life. This is where the power of "NO" plays such a vital role in this sport. You can decide to limit the risk on a jump to a level that you are more likely to die from a heart attack caused by an attack by 1000 ravenous Amazonian sexual predators.

When we introduce the reality of human beings into the equation, sure, there is a chance you may die on some BASE jumps, but not all. It is only when we decide as individuals to go to the beyond, that luck becomes a greater component of survivial than skill. Its kind of fun there sometimes, isn't it?? But not a place where we should be all the time.

As always, just my opinion. Could be crap, could be thought provoking, could be useful, could be just shit stirring. I'll let you all decide.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

i hear you.. im there myself,but i also enjoy jumping whith others,but after a trip like my us trip(3 weeks total)i really enjoy going back up alone.. and just feel it... however after a few weeks i also miss the laughs you have before and after a jump whith others...

but solos trully are great for thouse who likes them

it sounds like you had a great trip. everyone raved about it (except, well, maybe a certain rig...).

and I must say, I have not had a bad experience with another BASE jumper. they've always been fantastic, shared, and made me feel I could count on them, even if we met at the exit point. (I wish I could say that about folks I've known much longer...)

other jumpers, videos, this site, etc. are wonderful ways to learn about the sport.

solo jumps teach you about yourself...

And no witnesses to report on the short delays.

Hello Tom,

Hope you are well.

I agree with what you are saying, there are some people that have more/higher level of control then others. In my opinion nobody have complete control, because there are no such thing … that is an illusion …

<<<<< Why in heavens name would any sane person want to put there life at risk on EVERY jump and suffer the anxiety that goes with it???>>>>>

I believe that that is what you do, you put your life at risk on every single jump. There are jumps with less risk then others but you are at risk at every single jump … even that bridge that the Americans love so dearly.

My answer to your question, I do not believe it has to do with sanity/insanity for most people … I think it has to do with a more powerful mental state … Denial

Okay, I will decide. I think it could be useful. But then again, what do I know …

Have the best of times!

PerFlare

you see im used to short delays and aint embarresed to say i also do em off high stuff,i dont call it pc hesi or soi dont need to.. respond my pm or ill keep post stuff like that(ooohhh feel scared now))