Basejumper.com - archive

Wow,
I've waiting for good reason to post about this...

Must have been about a week ago that I took this girl, Clair, on her first BASE jump.

No tandems, no skydives, only 16 yrs. old.

And since jt wouldn't let me take her at his bridge, we had to do it at a freestanding power tower.

Should have seen her. She totaly stuck it and even stood up her landing. The best part is, I didn't even have to tell her anything. I just showed her the section in RADIX where Shane is briefing his deathcamp student.

BTW Keen 'N Able should be ready to ship late November.

Which reminds me also...any crew that wants to enter the "get your crew in a BASE video" contest should start thinking about getting me their footage.

Fox 245 with Vtec and multi-bridle up for grabs. (75 jumps on it).

late,
jimmy

edit for thread title ~TA

>>Heh heh, John told me about that one yesterday...be careful bro if she gets busted up out there it'll be all bad!

edit to remove pedophelia references ~TA

Wow! (All I will say)

Hey Jimmy, RADIX is the shiznit! HD BASE and trash stomping. GOTTA LOVE IT!!

Or they can send it to me instead...

Anyone with footage worthy of HMB2 will get a 40-oz Schlitz, a Viagra & a pack of Marlboro menthols for each winning clip.

In this case I would have to say that her parents must be breathing a sigh of relief, thinking, well at least she is not thinking of dating that guy.

Way to keep up the intellectual and ethical standards you have become known for, dood.

Jimmy its really long time ago i saw Radix(which is a great dvd by the way).
I dont rember you so ugly that you cant date anyone,do you really need to impress like that?

psst make sure you aint going to pay for the pubby you just made


edit to remove pedophelia references ~TA

And there I was, thinking Aussie Jimmy had been pretty culpable letting me jump!!!

As for the "get your crew in a BASE video" contest...see you in Zurich Jimmy!!!

>Which reminds me also...any crew that wants to enter the "get your crew in a BASE video" contest should start thinking about getting me their footage.

Fox 245 with Vtec and multi-bridle up for grabs. (75 jumps on it).

~I've got some flick @$$ footage!
Throw in the 16year old head case and it's yours.
~J

Way to go Jimmy! You just keep on getting more and more inspired on how to show the world you don't give a flying sh... about anything!

Like you probably won't give a crap about this post!

But i'll post it anyways so that other can get an idea of your lovely attitude, and ethics and the wonderful human being you are.
When it comes to skydiving and base jumping, there is no doubt that you are way up there in terms of skills! But dude your attitude stinks. It stank so much that I nearly stopped skydiving because of it when I went through the static line progression in Lodi a few years back.
It might not ring a bell to you cause my guess is that you are an ass to most students who come through lodi.(or maybe it was just me..."hey it was not my fault that you had to video my grad jump and that you forgot to push the rec button
on your cam before exiting the plane guess you had to take it out on me)
I also remember the day you were actively making fun of an hearing impaired tandem student who was there for his first jump. Again, Way to go man! I am convinced you ruined a bit of his experience that day. So yes you are a flying god! But you are also a flying...BLEEP! But knowing you, you will take this as a compliment!
Take care man, I truely hope that 16 year old chick doesn't get hurt cause of your ego.

Hope to never see you at an exit point.

You should have seen this parapalegic tandem passenger I was making fun of this weekend.

I was all like, "hurry up get on the plane!"

Thread here on blinc about this: http://www.blincmagazine.com/...owthread.php?t=23794

I've split this off the "Boyfriend won't let me jump" thread.

Does anyone know this girls' family, or her last name? Jimmy claims that Clair has her parents' permission, but I seriously doubt it. If mom does know about this, it just proves how screwed up this girl is. I wonder how the law would look at a 35 year old man endangering a 16 year old girl's life just to sleep with her?

Statutory rape and child endangerment. That is impressive. Anyone know where this girls lives so the proper authorities can be notified?

And yes, I would not think for a second about calling the cops on Jimmy and asking them to look into this. Ethics in base and amongst jumpers are reserved for those who follow them, and those who respect the sport and others in the sport. If anyone has this information and would like to help me I will make the call to the family and the authority.

This is so pathetic, even for Jimmy.

All,

We can discuss these things without resorting to personal attacks.

HELLvetic, please consider yourself warned. It's possible to express your opinion of someone's actions, and provide examples, without using personal insults.

If you must sling names, there is a thread over at BLiNC where you can do so, and it is linked earlier in this thread.

Her name is reported as "Clair Nicholas" in the BLiNC thread, where there is also some other identifying information.

If feel that this post by Tom Aiello might fit in here.
http://www.dropzone.com/...orum.cgi?post=297315

It's cool to split this from the "My boyfriend won't let me jump" thread, but the reason I first posted about Clair was that it was a topic germain to the issue of not letting someone jump because you care, or love them so much that you don't want to help them participate in an inherintly dangerous activity.

I'm always amazed when a boyfriend won't help his girlfriend BASE jump if it's something she wants to do. Far from a proof that you love the person, I see it as a form of control of one person over another. Maybe cleverly disguised as an example of loving care, it's really a control freak problem, one of the major issues I've encountered with relationships. Why people want to control other people, especialy those who they supposedly care about is beyond me. If your boyfriend or girlfriend wants to do something, even if just to try it to see if they like it, and you have the ability or means to help facilitate that, not doing so, no matter what reason you give, is just lame and you're hindering that person's right to explore life.

I posted about Clair on that topic to show that BASE jumping can be done successfully by someone without prior skydiving experience, so that's one excuse you gotta cross off the list, and all the little "what ifs" in the world don't amount to shit in the face of the one true "What If?" That we all live by: "What if this chick totally sticks it and has an absolute blast?"

To those who believe I do the stuff I do to feed my own ego: HIDGAF.

I do the stuff I do just to see if it can be done. And finding that out is worth every risk. All of us know that.

About the not letting a loved one BASE jump...
Dostoyevsky, a genious beyond compare, "found that love contains among its elements the desire to exercise power over the beloved, and that if this desire is not gratified the the loved one can be hated and loved at the same time"

Gotta go, a group of blind people just showed up to do tandems. This is gonna be good. "Has anyone SEEN my rig?"

late,
jimmy

Oh man, this is total crap.

It is not because it CAN be done succesfully that it WILL happen succesfully or SHOULD be done.

How would you feel if I drove around a school neighboorhoud at 100 mph? It can be done without harming anyone, so why not?

or...

Anyone can do basejumps without skydive experience, we all know that. It is just that skydive experience greatly increases your changes of survival when something goes wrong.
Starting basejumping without even having done skydiving is like starting formula 1 driving without ever have riden a normal car at a moderate speed.

What if 10 chicks stick it, and the 11th dies?

Is it still worth it?

Still worth it for you to have taken those 11?

Still worth it for the other 10?

Still worth it for the 1 who died?

Still worth it for her family?

Well, ya got me.

I thought this post was intended to be a joke. And as a joke, it was funny.

As a true story, there are so many things wrong with it, I don't even know where to begin.

rl

There is a history here:

Jamie Walton was a 17 year old kid who was put off on a number of jumps before he made a skydive. He ended being seriously hurt on a large cliff in northern Cali because he didn't know how to track.

There was another jumper (BASE 75) who made 100 base jumps before he ever made a skydive. He was I think 16 when he made his first jump. The center page of his high school yearbook was of his jumping exploits. He's still around and still jumps, but not that much anymore. Nick Di G. knows who this is!

Rhonda,
you thought my original post was a joke? Now that's funny.

Everyone can feel free to post their thoughts, but don't think you're going to say anything I haven't already thought of. So it's not going to make a difference what you say to me.

Tom, even if Clair dies BASE jumping and I go to prison, I would still say the venture was worth it.

See I've already thought of that scenario too. She could die snowboarding this winter throwing backflips off thirty foot kickers, she could die climbing rocks in S. Lake Tahoe where she lives, she could die driving her car around a winding road.

The girl wants to BASE jump, and until her parents tell me they've changed their minds, which is always a possibility, I'll teach her how to do it.

What's the big f-ing deal?

Not that it will matter to any of you, but she's pretty heads up. On the exit point, with pilot chute in hand, she turned to me and asked, "what do I do if I can't find the yonkels?"

I was like, "you will find them, but that's a good question. Hold onto the rear seatbelts, and use them to steer into the wind, then pull them down about six to eight inches just before you land."

Within five seconds of her tarp opening, she had found the yonkels, unstowed the breaks, and turned into the wind. She even stood up her landing.

If potential for disaster kept people from doing the things we want to do, no one would ever have any fun.

And if one you more ethical BASE jumpers calls the police and if I am breaking some sort of endangering a minor law, and I am cited for that, I'll obviously discontinue teaching her. So if it matters that much to any of you go ahead and do that.

Tell the police I live at 820 N. Lower Sac Road Apt. # 9 in Lodi California. I'm there most evenings after 7.

Or just keep feeding you ego by talking shit and throwing possible "what if" scenarios out into cyberspace.

And Ritchie spent the next twenty five years advising people against going the same route. As for Jamie, I knew him, and used to send him copies of the Fixed Object Journal when he went to prison for sticking up a liquor store.

Being young and being smart are mutually exclusive . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I wasn't trying to be accusatory. I was really interested in your answer to that question. I appreciate your honesty (and self-honesty) in answering it.

Its like talking to a ten year old with you Jimmy. One day, when you grow up you'll realize how stupid this is. Until then you will have your 10 year old mentality and keep doing all of the things your parents tell you not to do, just to prove you can and will do them.

It is for this exact reason that everyone knows for a fact that you are doing this for your ego. Why are you even hanging out with a 16 year old? I knew a guy who at 31 was into 15 year olds. You know what he was? A fucking demented pervert who liked underage girls. Do you discuss Hillary Duffs latest movie? How about which Simpson sister is the best singer, or which Hilton sister dresses best? There are a million reasons why what you are doing is just plain wrong but lets start with the simple ones. Your old enough to be her father!!!

Grow up.

Tree, calling someone a "demented pervert" is a personal attack, regardless of your opinion of them.

This forum has rules so that we can communicate on an adult level, discussing even controversial topics.

I've banned you from this forum for 14 days.

Hey Jimmy,

Exactly a year ago + a few days I gave U some footage when I saw you in Lysebotn. You said if you used it you would give me credit for it...saw my footage in Radix....didn't see a video credit. WTF?
Not a huge deal but I like people to follow through with what they say.............
PEace out

Personal take, which I'm sure will fall on deaf ears, but in any event....

If you want to take irresponsibility to the next level and frap yourself in, hey man, have at it, it's your life.

When your irresponsibility carries over into endangering the lives of others who know no better, you've crossed the line. What makes this particularly egregious (and heartless) is that you don't give a shit that it does.

So you can say that you're doing these things for her and that you care about her. But your actions belie the truth. And the truth is, you aren't and you don't.

As with everything else you're doing these things for you and you only...

"IIIIIII don't care about anyone else but me. IIIIIII don't care about anyone."

Prizes to anyone who names the BASE film that those lyrics came from.

Zennie,
I never said I was doing this because I cared about her. I was making a reference to other people who say they care about someone and then control what they do.

I'm not hanging out with underaged girls, I'm teaching a 16 yr. old how to BASE jump. I'm going to ask her parents to read this thread, so they can become more informed on what other BASE jumpers feel about the risks she is taking, so could everyone keep the pervert comments contained within PMs. I understand why you all might think that, but if you want non jumpers to take you seriously, talking about statutory rape and other things like that seem a little off. Just asking to keep this BASE related.

Sabre Dave,
Is that your shot of the quad gainer going off #6 from the side? That's the only Norway shot that I can think that went uncredited. Sorry about that. I should have written down your name before I left. It was an unfortunate oversight. Do you plan on sending me footage for the Keen 'N Able "get your crew in a BASE video contest"?

"Everyone can feel free to post their thoughts, but don't think you're going to say anything I haven't already thought of. So it's not going to make a difference what you say to me."

There are plenty of dead rappers that said that same thing. Guess they didn't learn.

 i was going to say something but i will go with Tom on this one....

When Chris Muller was 15, he took off in his hang glider from the Golden launch with his Dad Willi for his first cross country flight.

It was a pretty big, turbulent day, and somewhere down the range to the SW, Willi and Chris got separated and Willi ended up landing (and having to expain to his wife how he had lost their son).

They got a phone call from the hospital in Invermere. Chris had landed in the field out front after flying over 100km from Golden.

Chris grew up to be one of the best in the world at piloting nylon & mylar craft of all types.

There are analogies in other pursuits...

Cool and wise words Mr. Nick. I'm glad you joined and reminded everyone of the history we perpetually repeat! I had around 40 skydives when I started BASE, from cliffs. That's where I met Ritchie. And I too think it was foolish.
take care,
Chris

I'm big on owning my decisions, both the good and the bad. It's a pet peeve for me, then, when I feel that people are taking that ownership away from others. It's an even bigger pet peeve when it's done in the guise of being charitable or looking out for the little guy. Without defending this particular case (about which I know very little), then...

Sometimes people (particularly the very young, though I'd hardly call 16 "very young") have decisions made for them. Do you believe that's the case here?

There was a time when you knew less than you know now about the risks of BASE jumping. Certainly, when you got into the sport, you knew less than you know now. Even then, you probably had a hunch that there were some excellent reasons not to throw yourself off of very large objects. Do you have reason to believe that this person doesn't have the benefit of that basic intuition?

I never mentioned that at all. Somebody else did.

For me it strictly is a BASE issue.

Actually, Tree didn't call Jimmy a "demented pervert." He said the 31-year old guy he knew who hung around with 15-year olds was a demented pervert.



As for the rest of this...

You've said, Jimmy, that you're going to have her parents read this thread.

That's good, because if anything does happen to her, it won't just be you going to jail. They'll be going right along with you. For many reasons, not all good, there are a lot of laws on the books to protect minors from bad judgment on the part of those charged with their protection. And while both you and they don't feel that allowing her to jump with little to no preparation is endangering the welfare of a minor, my guess is that the local child protective agency will look at it differently if it comes to their attention in the worst possible way.

That being said, children--and she is a child still--are more deft at learning certain skills than adults, so she will probably do well. But all it takes is a little bad luck to offset whatever natural ability she might have, and all of you are toast.

For her sake, and hers alone, I wish you the best of it.

rl

No, what I believe to be the case is that a non-skydiver (throw out the age for a minute, I'm willing to drop it because that's secondary to the main issue) is not capable, by virtue of their lack of skydiving experience, of making an informed decision about the very real dangers of BASE.

They also do not have the requisite freefall and canopy control experience to correctly respond to a sub-nominal situation.

I've always felt, that with a couple of exceptions (i.e. a round off a bridge into water), putting off an inexperienced skydiver, let alone a non-skydiver, is irresponsbile, reckless and disrespectful to the person who has absolutely no clue what they're getting themselves into.

If she wants to BASE jump and Jimmy wants to teach her, I honestly have no problem with that. But CHRIST give her the tools to protect herself before just hucking her off something merely because she wants to.

The only thing I can possibly contribute is saying this... Jimmy I like your videos and think you're funny and an extremely competent jumper in all aspects.

Saying this however, I think you should reconsider this girl's age. I am a female, and a closer to 16 than 35. I remember this age well, and after making some base jumps here and there, I have come to grips with the risk I am putting myself in. At 16, I would not understand this AT ALL.

Why is she base jumping? To be cool in school? I have come to find base is very personal. Its for a reason of fulfillment. At 16, there's SO much in life yet to explore. Prom, high school teams, college, boys, driving, etc.

I have noticed that base is for publicity to you. I think the base community is having a cow right now because you're passing along this attitude to someone who doesn't know any better. She doesn't have the maturity to balance risk and reason yet. Everyone knows there's a big difference b/w 16 and 18, and 18 and 21, etc. But this just strikes me because that wasn't TOO far back for me to remember

Some good stuff here. You all might not realize it but I do listen. And I believe in the power of discussion.

So here's the deal. I think many already know my position on this and many will disagree but I do not believe skydiving to be a prerequisite to learning subterminal BASE jumping. Canopy skills can be learned at the right locations through BASE jumping. Landings in the early days of skydiving can be just as sketchy as when BASE jumping. I've been willing to teach people to BASE jump without skydiving experience for some time and many of those I've taught recently had less than 50 jumps. At the right locations (always please keep that mind) the sport is no more dangerous than any of the other "extreme sports." Many of which minors participate in. I always explain the risk to my students and go through each possible scenario. Then it's on.


There is a progression and skydiving does at some point become necessary. Mainly for terminal jumps because tracking has to be learned first.

BTW, when Clair did her first jump, her friend Cris jumped as well. I'm not sure how old he is, but he doesn't have any skydives either. He did make some rope jumps with Dan Osmond back in the day.
He stuck it too. They both stood up their landings, and I see no reason not to proceed.

I learned to skydive when I was 16 and almost went in on my 17th jump. And when I say I almost went in, I mean it. Yet that in no way made me want to stop, and had I gone in, I hope my parents wouldn't have gone to jail. My age had nothing to do with it. What's the difference with this?

BASE jumping is a sport that is just now emerging as a legitimate athletic pursuit and I don't believe it neccessarily needs skydiving to hold its hand.

And Brit you're right, I do like publicity.

Oddly enough, there's a thread in General Skydiving Discussions right now about minors making a skydive.

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1792831#1792831

Parents have gone to jail for some pretty weird things, Jimmy. Sometimes it turns on nothing more than where the powers-that-be see their interests lie.

You need to realize that what Clair's parents have done (by allowing this) is probably sufficient reason for child protective services to remove her from their custody right now. The only thing between Clair and a foster home or group home or worse is that they probably won't find out what's going on unless something goes wrong. If I were you, though, I'd be very wary of publicity.

rl

I would tend to agree with you on both of these statements Jimmy. We all know plenty of people who have learned to BASE jump without skydive experience. Some people learn quicker than others, and there ARE other sports other than skydiving that can help prepare your mindset for BASE. Throwing human dog food off the bridge is a bit much, but it doesn't sound like the folks in question fall into this category.

That being said, my concern with this is not necessarily with the 16 year old's safety--that is her own resposibility whether she fully understands it or not. My concern is for the rest of us. As much as BASE is growing in popularity, it is still as marginalized as ever and becoming more restricted each day.

It would be a HUGE blow to lose legal access to TF or Moab. GIGANTIC.

The more people die/get injured BASE jumping, the more ammo 'the man' has against us to make laws, remove access, etc. My position is Why take that chance? No harm will come from a new jumper putting in some time out of an aircraft first.

hope it gets worked out.
pope

Tom, that was no personal attack, the demented is the guy Mark knew You might want to reconsider your decision, just my 0.02.

My wife and I are just LOL about this whole thing.

On one corner we have Jimmy pretty much stating that if a 16 year old can ski, snowboard, rock climb, drive, and ride a motorcycle then they can sure BASE.

On the other corner there are people stating that "maturity" and a shit loaded of skydives are needed to start BASE.

The truth is people died and got fucked up doing this thing off the hook and by the "BASE book".

For what it's worth, if the parents, or whoever, read this thread, I'll include a link to my thoughts on starting BASE, which can be found here.

Yeah but if you put her off the bridge, would you let her jump from the rail?

Standard Issue, what do I get? ....

ahh that was a joke, um okay then....damn.

I've removed a discussion, by name, of a jumper who has expressed a preference not to be named in the forum.

Drowning pool...

Nice Jimmy, I'm banging a 20 year old here, and I'm 31. It's worth it.

I am disappointed at how few people are getting really upset about the virtual world. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE keep the fire going.

Tom, you don't like Jimmy or something?

Jimmy, if you were friends with the skydive crew here at this dz, I might have to buy you a beer in Norcal and have you explain to me why.

Let's keep the hate alive and strong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jimmy

Would you mind giving her email to Tom?

And far more importantly, could you please PM me her email and a photo? She's more my age.

I was asked to explain why I am doing what I am doing. The answer is simple because i want to. i am not doing it to impress anyone.

oh for the record I am graduated from High School.

Clair

Great then...you are golden!
Have fun... don't die.
Congratulations on your high school diploma!
I was not aware that a highschool diploma was a prerequisite that would help your skills for base or even skydiving.

To be frankly honest. Your answer is the one of a 16 year old! Nothing wrong with that... cause duh!!! you are 16! But to me, the association of base jumping with your high school graduation tells me you have the maturity of a 16 year old. Again, nothing wrong with being 16. We ALL were 16 once. But base and a 16 year old maturity is receipe for a not so good outcome IMO.

oh and one more thing
from Jimmy's post
Must be really reassuring that this whole thing is just a "venture" to your mentor to "see if it can be done".

Maybe you should think about trading spots with a guinee pig in a research lab! Your odds of survival might increase!

Be smart.

Take care.

"I am graduated from high school" Fuck that is priceless.

If I were her, I'd dump you just for writing that.


On the subject of age, however, I wonder if you would condone a relationship between an 11-year old and a 22-year old.

Same thing, right?

Hmmmm...maybe not.

As people get older, significant age differences between partners is reasonable. But there is a veritable abyss between 16 and 20 in terms of emotional maturity, and in professional circles dealing with the issue, a relationship between a teenager and an adult is considered child abuse. No matter how grown-up a 16-year old seems, s/he lacks the wisdom to discern consequences, and there is an inherent power imbalance in such relationships that make it unhealthy and dangerous for the child.

In another day and time, people lived shorter lives and children grew up faster. Children today give the appearance of being mature at an earlier age, but it's no more than a dangerous illusion. They have the accoutrements--because adults provide them--but the substance is lacking. It is only when a child takes on adult responsibilities that s/he can be considered an adult regardless of his/her age and therefore equipped to engage in adult activities.

rl

Obvious question now: what would you consider adult responsibilities?

And, are adult activities and adult responsibilities not closely related? I mean, if you can't participate in adult activities, isn't it more difficult to take up adult responsibilities then?

Feel free to PM me is this is going to much off topic.

Hey babe you know you look so fine,
Send shivers up and down my spine,
I don't care about our different ages,
I'm an open book with well thumbed pages,
You're Jailbait, and I just can't wait,
Jailbait baby come on

I'm going to take it even further off, and then come back round again.

When a child becomes self-supporting and able to attend to all his/her needs w/o parental assistance, one may consider that child an adult. (Some people never attain that status but the law says that they are adults anyway. Nothing we can do about that, although perhaps we should.)

My mother was 16 when she married my father and 19 when I was born. It took her many years to understand the consequences of that impulsive act.

I was in foster care when I was 16 and molested by my foster father's 31-year old best friend. At the time, I did not understand it as child abuse, because I valued the attention, but that's exactly what it was. And the consequences for me were terrible on many levels, because although I was very bright and capable, I was already damaged, and the experience damaged me even more.

I did not have the judgment to know what the consequences would be. A teenager does not have sufficient emotional maturity to evaluate the outcome of adult actions. By definition, teenagers believe themselves to be invulnerable. It is only as we age that we begin to understand irreversible consequences and the permanency of death. Unfortunately, in the absence of that kind of comprehension, risk analysis fails.

rl

Come on man surely you have to be trolling, I read these 3 pages and laughed, then I'd stop laughing and think "maybe he is serious" then think "nah he can't seriously be" and start laughing again.

I seriously hope your just trolling, letting a 16 yr old with no sky dive experience is insane, letting anyone doing a BASE with no skydiving experience is crazy,
I think you said she had like a 5 second canopy ride ?
when I did my first skydive, in the first 5 seconds of canopy flight I had simply undone me breaks and thinking "woh" took me probably 30 seconds before I had even steered both ways.

how you could have expected her to judge the right height to flare is beyond my thoughts.

This pretty much sums up the issue perfectly and succinctly.

At least we know they're on about the same emotional maturity level, so, hey ya know? It might just work out.

There are LOTS of things I "want" to do... like beat the living shit out of my ex's boyfriend-now-husband. I'd love to trash his car. I'd love to do lots of things to that m%^&#@er.

But I don't, much as I'd love to. And you know why? Because I understand the consequences involved. Therefore I exercise "restraint". It's a foreign word to many people's vocabularies, I know, but if you go to www.m-w.com I'm sure you can find the definition there.

Hell. I'd love to hop behind the wheel of an Indy car and do a few 200+ MPH laps. Think any sane (or responsible) Indycar driver would let me do that just because I "want to"?

I mean, hell, what could possibly go wrong?

The BLiNC thread reports her email as dietrying360@yahoo.com.

the reason that I stated that i am out of highschool is because some one said that i just wanted to show off in school. f@#k that I don't need to explain myself any more..

later

Clair,

Please remember that this is an internet discussion forum. As such it's purpose is to hold discussions. Specifically, this forum is for discussion of BASE jumping and surrounding issues.

Your friends and mentors began conversations on various internet discussion forums, including this one, about you. Presumably they did so because they desired to discuss your experience, and that experience within the context of BASE in general.

In a sense, what I'm saying is "hey, you brought it up."

Don't know if I agree or disagree with Jimmy's decisions.. but I'll play devil's advocate.

I was 18 when I did my first BASE jump.. (I am now 22) and was taught by a guy who was in his mid-40's. I even went over to his house all by myself to learn to pack BASE. Of course, I had several hundred skydives and was a rigger. At the same time, a 31 year old guy was teaching me to freefly and to swoop a little. If my parents had known what was going on, they probably would have worried more about the guy teaching me BASE, when it was really the 31 year old guy they should have worried about.

I think the only issue here is the lack of skydives. However, if shes jumping something fairly high, and has an easy landing area, I reckon it could be a lot worse.

Besides, our taxes go to sponsor programs with much scarier and sketchier methods of freefall and canopy instruction than this. How many times have you heard a story about some military skydiving instruction and your eyes have gone wide when you heard some story about some guys 4th jump that is a 1200' static line at night with a 60 pound rucksack?

-Karen

I still agree that the lack of skydiving, which translates into canopy control fundamentals, is the primary issue, though her posts are now giving me pause on even that.

Is it possible for a 17-year old to have the emotional maturity do do something highly dangerous? Sure.

Jeff Gordon was racing 650 HP spint cars at age 13 (and hit the wall in his first race I might add). But he had also been racing since age FIVE. And even after winning multiple sprint car championships he STILL didn't start racing NASCAR until age TWENTY, and that was after taking Buck Baker's driving school.

What Jimmy is doing is the equivalent of tossing someone behind the wheel of a NASCAR with ZERO prior experience and saying "Have at it. You probably won't die, but if you do, it was still worth it... to me.".


It could be, but the fact is, he's putting her off short delay from a tower. So even his selection of sites is bad... notwithstanding what he says. If she has a 180 (or a 90 close to the guys) and doesn't grab her *cough* "seatbelts" immediately and deal with the situation correctly (which is highly doubtful) she's screwed.

Thanks Karen. That was a lot nicer than a pm I just got from TREEJUMPS. Am I aloud to post this tom?

Edit to remove PM. Posting PM's or private email into the forum is bad etiquette. Please don't do that. ~TA

Very poor comparison to use IMO. Assuming you have never been in the military you are simply repeating a story that is far from factual. Regardless, the fact of the matter is a green static line military jumper spends far more time being trained on the ground on all aspects of military jumping than most get in AFF or static line progression before they even get to jump. Showing someone a video who has no frame of reference or knowledge of all the things that could go wrong and then hucking them off of an object is irresponsible and based on the girls age, I would bet grossly negligent in the eyes of the law.

Lets talk about the ugly reality of how this could of played out. What if she had issues on deployment, broke herself or even died? Would that be boasted about? Better yet, as was mentioned, how would that further involve the law with BASE jumping and site access at that location? I would bet the girl's parents would not be too happy had something gone wrong and their child, and she is a child still, was broken or killed. Kudos to her for hucking and living, everyone gets lucky now and then. Enabling her to do this with zero training to speak of, among the other aspects involved, is extremely poor form. As the saying goes...."there is always one..."

you however did fail English it seems.

Zennie I hear you, but this is not like putting someone who's never flown a cessna behind the stick of the space shuttle.

Where I have her jumping is an object that cannot ever,ever, ever, ever be struck because of the wind. We do floaters off of it all the time. Ans if you take a two off it you will have a 45 second canopy ride.

the landing area is huge field of knee high grass

All she has to do is unstow the breaks turn and land.

I know about progression. This is hands down the safest place for a non-jumper to learn to be a jumper.

My bad I thought you were putting her off the big tower. Re-reading I now know which one you're referring too.

Things can still go wrong. If the winds are that strong, what if she winds up in line twists and downwinds it? Backwards.

What if she turns back into the wind but they're honking so much that she's blown backwards?

Do you honestly think she has the experience to deal correctly with these sorts of situations?

Can you, or some-one else, explain how this is possible? Wind and winddirections vary if I'm not mistaking? How can you be so sure it is impossible?

Thijs

Hey it was just a question not a statement . And I said "cool" not "show off." There's a difference see... I was cool in high school without showing off.

[troll feeding]
PS- 'High school' is two words, and 'anymore' is one... Just in case they didn't teach you that in speedy graduation school.
[/end troll feeding]

Whether my example was 100% factual or not is not the point, you can't argue that 18 year olds in the military may very well have to deal with plenty of really scary shit that probably no one at any age is ready for... stuff that is scarier than learning to BASE with no skydives. The point is that we as a society deem that at the age of 18 people are emotionally mature enough to sign over their lives in a number of ways. Military service, skydiving instruction.. blah blah blah.

18 is really an arbitrary number as it is life experience that makes people emotionally mature. Sure, at 18 you would generally have more life experience than at 16.

However, I know from my personal experience that at 15 I was about as emotionally mature as I was at 20. The thing that shocked me into maturity was dealing with my mom's cancer at age 15 and having to grow up and take care of my dad. Who knows what this chick has been through?

To me this is a question about ethics, not about the legality of this particular situation. I feel like in many cases the law is fairly arbitrary. At 18 you can die for your country, but you can't drink? You can drink at 21 but at no age can you smoke pot?

The question is, is this situation ethical?

I think it would be ethical if Jimmy had her learn to skydive and they weren't romantically involved. Otherwise, I don't think its a very ethical thing to do.

The end of my story about learning BASE is that after 3 jumps I realized I wasn't suited for BASE. Hopefully after receiving a variety of views on the subject, this chick will make the responsible decision to go make some skydives.

-Karen

I always thought a 300 foot bridge with a small round parachute over nearly still water with a pca to be the safest, assuming a rescue boat is below. i have a friend who put 5 jumpers off this sort of site in one day, none of whom had ever made a skydive or base jump. I always viewed a person's reaction to the environment without any prior adrenaline-like experience to be highly unpredictable in people, with definite physiological advantages in some and not in others.

I have made many jumps from that object. The prevailing wind direction at this time of year makes object strike almost impossible. I haven't seen a day, in this season, at that object, with winds at opening less than the average forward speed of a BASE canopy. Wind there is very regular, and very predictable, and usually quite high, during the summer months. To my knowledge, the only strikes at that site have occured at different times of year. When I was living there and jumping it we used to refer to it as a "vertical bridge" because of the virtual impossibility of striking.

I am not a base jumper, you can call me a whuffo in basejump.

I won't say anything about how god she is in base, how well she did, etc.;. I can't judge it.

However... I wonder... and please correct me if I am wrong:

1. the girl is under age and parents are responsible for her.
2. You are an adult and you are responsible for her. The fact that she came here to tell us she does not go to school any more is not an adult reaction: it has nothing to do with the discussion!!!! Behaving responsible and as an adult adult would be telling us her partof the story and not just stating she is no longer a student.
3. The sport is illegal in most parts of the world. When things go wrong YOU will get the blame and the parents.
4. I can't judge whether one needs skydiving experience in order to basejump. Skidiving is a dangerous sport already, but base seems to me a bit more dangerous: being able to fall stable and to track without relative wind seems difficult to me, reactions must be faster... I don't know... During 50 seconds of freefall there is more time to practise some basic skills.
5. Isn't a base parachute more reactive? I don't know, I am just guessing on this one.

Well, while doing aff there are two instrucors with you in the beginning to correct you. If you don't pull (brain lock) they will pull. Under canopy there is radio contact. Jumping from a tower means jumping near to an obstacle...

If I am correct (as I stated before, I am a base whuffo), there are more risks involved in base than in skydiving.

In my countrey, people are allowed to skydive from their 16... there is a legislation that allowes it and nobody gets the blame if something goes wrong.

I just want to say... I believe it is possible to learn to basejump without having skydiving experience... but when I use my common sense, I don't think it is ideal. When I read the reactions of most other basejumpers in this forum, it seems they agree with that point of view.

My question to you: do you really want to take the risk? It seems you do, so there is no discussion about that.

Do you really think the girl is mature enough to calculate the risks? We can only say that as long as nothing goes wrong. The same about the parents.

However, it is hard for me to imagine that the parents agree their daughter doing a basejump... but who am I to judge. But if you like it or not, I find this a delicate story.

I don't think you can compare ski etc... with basejump. First of all ski is legal. One can get killed of course. But isn't it possible that in Base jump the risk of dying is higher? What would you do if she suddenly suffers from a brain lock?

To Clair... why do you do this at this age? If something goes wrong with you at this age... other people get the blame. How did you meet Jimmy? How did you get interested in the sport? Do you read this thread? What do you think when you read the reactions of other skydivers and base jumpers? Do you understand them?

Sean, Brit,

If you have an opinion about the actual topics at hand, that's one thing.

Nitpicking people's grammar and spelling is silly. Criticizing someone's maturity by pointing out spelling errors is beyond ironic.

I'm sure we can all express our views without that kind of thing.

Hey read the story about the climber's parents suing over rock fall. This will not be good WHEN she breaks something which I'd bet on even considering Karma. Sux to say aloud but oh well.

Claire *and directed to Claire ONLY*,

If anything please listen with open ears. Just as Brits17 posted, I too am 23 years old, not that much older than you. I remember what it is like to be 16; you have a tendancy to put trust in those older than you and feel they will not put you in harms way, you are a bit nieve, and are wanting to be considered an adult. Let me tell you girl, this is not the way to do it. Jimmy cannot be telling you exactly how dangerous this sport is and how at risk YOUR life is at this moment. At 16, we already see ourselves as adults. I remember! When you turn 18, you will look back at being 16 and think "oh goodness, if I had only known that back then". TRUST ME...then..when you are 21, you will look back at when you were 18 and think the exact same thing. Now, at 23..I'm sure when I turn 28 I'll look back at my life now and think "oh goodness..I had no clue about anything!" Life is about growing and learning. Don't cut yourself short.

I as well WANT to BASE jump, although I know it is not my time. I am not prepared enough physically nor mentally in order to take on what the world of BASE throws at you. You are 16 years old. Have you ever seen someone die at terminal speed from a no-pull? I have. Let me tell you, it is not pretty. It will scar you for life. Even if you are not BASE jumping, just being around it...anyone with a conscience will tell you that the things you will just SEE in this sport are enough to make you numb. Enjoy your youth. There will always be fixed object jumping...why rush it? Don't you want to be fully prepared so that you can enjoy it for a longer period of time?

I had about 1 1/2 years in skydiving and around 160 skydives when I made my 1st BASE jump. Within a week, I made another BASE jump. My mentors had told me I would be fine...but you cannot fully put your trust into anyone when it comes to your life. I got lucky and everything went perfect. No problems at all. But then the reality sets in. Do you really realize what you are doing? Have you really taken into consideratin that 95% of BASE jumpers will DIE or spend a day or two in the hospital? It's all fun and games until something goes wrong. I realized I had a lot more preparing to do myself before I stepped foot on another tower or bridge. This was MY decision. Not my mentors. There is no reason to rush life, Claire. None at all. Enjoy your youth, as I am mine. In the 6 months I have involved myself around this sport, I have seen more than I ever imagined.

You have so much left to experience...these types of adventures will always be there for you to come back to. As I previously stated..I understand your desire...I feel it too! It's just you really need to take a step back and look at the whole picture. There are better ways to go about this.

Good luck,
Amanda

*Edited to add: Consider yourself lucky that you have been given a taste of what this sport has to offer, just as I have. And work towards it in the appropriate manner. Seriously. Please just listen. The others on this board are not attacking you, they are just conscerned for your safety.

 

I know Amanda. Brit and I put her off on her first jump and I will personally attest to her being dialed in and I also personally think she is perfectly capable of being a heads-up jumper. So what she's saying is particularly meaningful.

Clair... PLEASE read all of the incidents listed here. These were real people, many of whom were very skilled BASE jumpers. All of them are now dead.

BASE jumpers are, by their very nature, independent and don't like being told what to do. So those of us expressing concern here aren't paternalistic busybodies trying to tell you how to live your life. These (myself include) are very independent spirits who are also very concerned about their sport and their brothers and sisters within the sport.

No one is saying "don't BASE jump". What people are saying is that this is not fun and games. This is a very serious sport. The consequences are very real and very severe. There is no such thing as a safe BASE jump. If you want to survive in this sport for any period of time you need to understand that fact and be armed with the skills to minimize that risk.

Tom i have copyed that string im gonna use it againt anyone in the future against people like me...

As most people in here i do agree that a person of the age of 16 years whith no skydive experience is a bad idea when it comes to BASE...

genneral i dont like the idea of people whith out skydive experience starts to BASE,but must say that i preffere a person 10ish years older whith no experience more than a 16 year old.

Clair,understand this is not about picking on you,rather than on Jimmy.
If you stay in the sports play safe and prove the rest of us wrong,if not you have failed your mission...

I've got to comment on this. IF what Jimmy is doing is illegal and unethical (notice the big IF before you jump all over me) he's the one who is jeapardizing the lifestyles of the other local base jumpers in the area, not Tree (who by the way seems to be barred from discussing this topic any further in any forum) or anyone else who chooses to notify the authorities in the best interest of the CHILD involved.

Hey 460,
yes I believe pca'ing people into water with rounds is very safe. That's more like bungee jumping though. A quick thrill ride that leaves the jumper with no tangible BASE experience.

I'm not just throwing meat off objects. The idea is to teach someone how to base jump without skydiving experience. That includes exit, opening, and landing procedures.

And where I'm doing it, is the safest place possible.

What about object avoidance? Braked turns, stall turns? Kicking out line twists? What about tracking?

You'll never convince me that you can safely learn these skills outside of the skydiving environment.

In terms of object avoidance and canopy turns, I'd say you can do a lot of learning on those off a span over water, just splashing down at the end of the canopy ride. In fact, I've seen lots of people who were experienced jumpers and still learned a lot practicing those skills in that way.

As to line twists and tracking, I have not found a better way to develop those skills than skydiving. I've still got my fingers crossed for an angled wingsuit/tracking tunnel, though.

Jimmy, not meant as an attack or accusation, can you share some details of how you teach these skills off an object? I'm assuming that your "I just showed here the seatbelt video" was a joke (or if not, please correct me).

You should have seen how fast one of my jump partners was traveling when he had line twists off that same tower. All he had to do was unstow the brakes turn and land. That pesky twist made it a tad more difficult to do quickly.

And no it's not the safest. As far as good objects, it's definately up there. What about the bushes to the left, with the wires on the other side? I've landed there. If there's no wind, is she going to stand down? I've had 180's there, and you've landed on the tower so it's hittable.

Just pointing out the obvious.

I had major line twists flailing an aerial there several years ago. I landed under the twists, but managed to get above them and steer into the wind before doing so. My jumping partner was out in the field looking for me by the time I got my gear picked up, though (he had watched from exit, and it was very dark, so he didn't see me turn and land, and thought I had been seriously injured downwinding in 25 mph winds).

Jimmy, I'm assuming that you're only puttin her off that thing with strong tailwinds?

Hookitt, the prevailing wind direction (assuming strong wind in the normal direction) pushes you away from the wires and bushes, doesn't it? With average wind you could probably still hit them, but I think you'd have to be trying to do it.

 

Fair enough. The problem with doing it that way is that you don't have enough air time to try it repeatedly and get it dialed in the way you can on a skydive.

For practice for an experienced skydiver/BASE jumper, sure. But I wouldn't recommend relying on that methodology 100% as a learning tool.

Hello Clair,

May I please have an honest answer. Have you read The BASE Fatality List ?

NickD
BASE 194

Yes that is true.

hey Tom,seppo...there's been a lot worse in here than me pulling her up about that...as it happens i was highlighting a shortfall in her grammar as a sign of her immaturity...harmless fun...if you look elsewhere in the thread someone else does exactly the same...it is ironic....and sarcastic...something we English live and thrive on...hardly grounds for a public rebuke...anyway...i wish her luck...a lot of it...Karma will take care of Jimmy if she dies...but as he says hes prepared to live with that...I must be such a boring,staid run of the mill human beiing because i couldnt live with it...not one iota.

Then why did you choose to use it if it is not factual or your point?

The only question about age here is the legal ramifications of involving a minor in this activity and Jimmy's involvement with her besides the BASE jumping aspect. Both of which have laws pertaining to them. Laws in some instances are based on ethics, values and beliefs, it is what this(the US) country is founded on, you cannot arbitrarily disassociate them.


From your earlier post:

You've admitted based on your own experience that even at 18, you were unaware and unsuspecting of the situation you were in at the time. This girl is even younger and her parents very well may not be aware of the situation as it pertains to BASE jumping and her involvement with Jimmy. In either case, BOTH situations are highly ethicaly questionable.

So the day before I took her, I sat down with Will, our static line instructor at the DZ, and asked him how he teaches people to fly and land canopies. Let it be noted that, good or bad, we don't use radios on students out here.

Will's response was smile, shrug his shoulders a bit, and say, "you tell 'em it's like driving a car. Right turn, left turn stop." He's trained hundreds of students over 10 years. I asked how to explain about the timing of a flair...not too high, not too low.

He said, "tell them to begin an even semmetrycal flair at about fifteen feet. They almost always get it wrong in the beginning."

i.e. you can only learn something by doing it, and whether you're teaching BASE or Skydiving, the student's ability to follow intructions and do what you say to do when you say to do it is always up to them.

We'll see how Clair handles line-twists when she gets them. I told her what I'd do.

I think BASE instructors who tell their students to have 75-250 skydives are getting off easy cuz their students have already made all the first parachute landing "my ankle hurts" mistakes.

You've got to be joking... please tell me you are.

Clair,

a gal I know is 14 years old - she breaks horses, rides, drinks, smokes, and for most purposes is an adult. No she doesn't much listen to anyone either. And she has more balls, is more capable and more competent than most people will ever be. Yep, she's special. Please read through the fatality list recommended to you, not in a morbid way, but so that you might not repeat previously made mistakes. It'd suck for you to get permanently hurt from a DOH! thing which you might have easily avoided if you just knew about it.

Cheers
(my name here is not related to BASE)

You cited some good reasons NOT to notify the authorities unless you knew the people directly involved. Good intentions can have bad results, I agree with that. But making base jumping more difficult for others in the area is not a valid reason IMO. Sadly, one bad apple CAN spoil the whole bunch (or at least spoil things for the "good apples") and that's a fact of life. Place the blame where it belongs- on the bad apple! That was my only point. I don't know Tree, I don't know Jimmy, I don't know the 16 year old child involved or her parents but it does seem more like a family issue at this point.

jimmy gave me the instructions that he could and made sure that i knew them. When you are doing something like BASE and there are severe injuries that can occure you tend to listen more.

after repeating everything jimmy told in my head me about a million times on the way up to the tower i jumped. because i went over what i was suposed to do in my head so many times it was like second nature when the time came to do them. before i knew it the canopy was open and my hands were in the "yonkles" and i had turned. it all went great and i stood up the landing.

jimmy did a great job and i look forward to making more jumps with him.


clair nicholas

Clair, are you planning on taking up skydiving when you turn 18?

i am planing on skydiving with in a few months.

this shit is hilarious

i wish all of you the best luck with BASE jumping.

see ya around.

Clair nicholas

Clair,

congratulations on your jump. I'm glad you had fun and landed healthy.

please stay that way (I'll say that to ANY jumper...).

there have been many excellent posts on this thread. thanks to all.

keep in mind that the posters feel passionately about this sport. a sport that is dangerous and can involve questionable legal activity.

skydiving sits on more solid legal ground, but most dz's won't let minors jump. there is a reason.

something bad can happen to ALL of us on every jump. but any incident involving you will hurt this sport quite disproportionately.

realize you're not the only one to love BASE jumping.
and be thankful so many "strangers" care about you...

Yes there are severe injuries that can occur when BASE jumping, smart girl for realizing this...

Seems you're already setting yourself up to find out what they are for yourself. A tower?? Please, share details!

Why should anybody think that "Clair" is really Clair?

hey you too!!

uh, why?
you are articulate and appear to be intelligent.
you create quite popular videos.

and I'm betting you knew that your comment would stir up many critical replies.

so, again, why post it?

what good does it serve?

do you like being viewed negatively?

BASE jumpers learn quickly that they might break laws.
normally, they also learn to keep it to themselves.

so why publicize this training?
looking for more customers?

It's the big Power tower we were winded out on.

Any publicity is good publicity. It will sell videos.

It also sells sports drinks. Except to me...

When Jimmy first posted (before Tom split the thread), I thought it was a joke. Then, as the flurry began, I took it for granted that he'd really done this.

Now I'm starting to wonder if, in fact, he's not just trolling.

Is there anyone who can corroborate his story?

rl

Aren't you watching? I think Clair's been corroborating like crazy.

BTW, Casey Hoover was nine years old when he made his BASE jump, not twelve like I wrote . . .

And I'm with r/l and think we are getting yanked around by the yonkels here.

But, I'll say this much; in trying to come up with arguments against this I keep hitting walls of my own making . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Ok, as far as I'm concerned this topic has about run its course,so now (deep breath) let me try to explain myself:

Motivation. I believe every act has multiple motivating factors. This is no exception.

1) to stir up shit and get publicity...Absolutely. When Clair first emailed me she had already been denied by more than one BASE jumper, one of whom is a former student of mine who I taought when no one else would because he only had 75 skydives. That was three years ago and now he has 4 times as many BASE jumps as me and only 25 more skydives. I almost said no to Clair, but then isaid to myself, just think of the shit this will stir up among the "community." On some level I just wanted to see what you all would think.

2) to sell more videos...No fucking way. I know it seems like I think any publicity is good publicity and that I will therefore sell more videos. What like 850 instead of 750? Whatever. There is no lucrative market for my videos. I would have to sell 4,000 before I could even think about making a living doing it. That's not gonna happen. Standard Issue was made for three people: myself, Aussie Pete, and Mike Knight. I had one mini-dv copy of it, and I broke two VCRs making dubs one at a time for ten bucks because people thought it was fun to watch. Last year I made RADIX and it was made for about ten people. But I had a bunch of dvd's duplicated just in case other people wanted a copy. I still have 750 copies sitting in my locker. Keen 'N Able will be the same. I'm making it for myself, my friends, and those who will want to watch it and give me twenty bucks for my trouble. I doubt teaching Clair to Base jump wil help me sell 3,350 copies of a video, although it w be the video "that's got that 16 year old girl in it."

3) because believe it or not this where the sport of BASE jumping is headed...yup. Bet you didn't know that I can see the future. In the future (base jumping does have a future after all) Skydiving will be a complimentary aspect to one's progression in BASE jumping, not a categorical prerequisite. The owner of the dropzone I work at was the first DZO in history to put students under ram air canopies. He caught heaps and heaps and heaps of shit from the skydiving community at the time because he was "absolutely going to kill his students." Now, show me a dropzone that puts its students out of the plane under rounds. skydiving and BASE jumping are sports that can lead to injury or death at any time under perfect conditions for no apparent reason at all. We allow 16 year olds to do tandems at our dropzone with parent's consent and BIll Booth's waiver video says "there will not now or at any time be a perfect parachute, a perfect plane, a perfect skydiving instructor, or for that matter a perfect student." 16 year olds and their parents sign that waiver every day at the dz cuz the damn kids want to skydive. As far as the future of BASE jumping is concerned, hear me now and believe me later, there will be a day when it is a comonly accepted fact that skydivng is a neccessary aspect of learning all the skills required to safely make the gambit of available BASE jumps, but is not, however, an absolute prerequisite to getting started.

4) because I want to test the above theory. Yup. I just wanna see if what I just said is true.

5) because of all the reasons many of you have accused me of. Maybe, I don't know. You all might be right. And I am fully aware of the fact that every single one of you might have the blessed opportunity to tell me "I told you so."

edit to remove references to and threats of physical violence ~TA

later,
jimmy

p.s. I truly believe Clair will remain unhurt and that many of you will have the opportunity to BASE jump or skydive with her in the future.

Seriously Jimmy, do you have any idea how many jumps people didn't do because they were anxiously waiting to write something in response to you?

Tar and feather him if you must, just grow some balls and do it instead of just threatening it.

Jimmy ... I hope to meet you one day and sit down and drink a beer or two with you. I enjoy your work and you made me happy one day when you saw some of my work and complimented it as well.

I think with careful mentoring Clair could be fine and turn into a bad ass skychick. If Clair was to be trained in Idaho, then my canopy control concerns for her aren't huge. She'll likely even get better canopy control coaching there with you privately that with some AFF guy. But without this opportunity, I don't think hucking oneself off of a bandit fixed object (at night?) with 1 parachute ride under her belt such a smart thing to do both for her and for the sport. I've always thought that good canopy control was key in BASE. Was I mistaken here? Take her to the bridge, train her there (if she's on the level with her parental units). But she needs to learn how to fly her canopy before she does other stuff. You know this ... you know more about BASE than I do ... and I know this.

Oh I sure hope Clair grows up to skydive as well as BASE. I see too many new BASE jumpers trivialize the benefits of skydiving. Sure BASE and skydiving are not the same, but being current with one's skydiving can never be a bad thing for one's BASE.

>>just grow some balls<<

Oh, if wishing made it so . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I don't BASE jump but I have been following this thread and have been doubting it from the start. And also I have been surprised by how many big names on this forum are buying it. I could be wrong, but something about the whole thing seems sketchy...

An angle I haven't seen brought up yet..
There is nothing to stop Claire doing any one of a million dangerous stupid ill thought out things. Nothing short of her parents locking in her room for another couple of years any way.
So anyway although I still agree with a lot of the caveats raised by people and I personally wouldn't want to be mixed up in this situation. Isn't one positive side to this, that clair is being educated and not doing this on her own!! There's nothing to stop her being out there doing it anyway. Except maybe not having a rig!!!!
I recall when I was 11 I used to visit a sand quarry with my mates, we would "BASE" of the cliffs a couple of stories high without a parachute, hit a rolling bank of sand and slide/tumble the rest of the way down. Sure our parents would have freaked if they'd seen it but they didn't, it still happened .. frequently. Kids if they want to WILL find some kind of trouble to be in ...

For Clair's sake I sincerely hope I never have to.


Believe it or not, I actually like that one. Beating a guy with his own gun has a hell of a lot more style than simply shooting him with it.

I wonder Jimmy??

If you partner was depressed and wanted to commit suicide, you would just let it happen and/or support that person? What if they wanted to make wild passionate love to a dead monkey whilst you watched? You'd probably say, hey, give it a go, who am I to discourage your individual freedom. Hey, what if they wanted to just kill somone??? So I'm guessing that you TOTALLY support terrorism too. Come on Jimmy, they just want peace for their people and to be considered as hero's. Who has the right to stop them. Now drink driving, that's heaps of fun. Don't worry about the potential innocent victims. What about. . . . . . . . . . .?

<<<<<<<<I posted about Clair on that topic to show that BASE jumping can be done successfully by someone without prior skydiving experience, so that's one excuse you gotta cross off the list, and all the little "what ifs" in the world don't amount to shit in the face of the one true "What If?" That we all live by: "What if this chick totally sticks it and has an absolute blast?" >>>>>>>>>>

I also wonder Jimmy - you have a survivor from a statistical pool of ONE person. And you think that validates your argument or proves your point? What if one person dies BASE jumping because they have no prior skill development program/experience (this has happened!!!!!!!). What does that prove to you? We already know that people have BASE jumped before they have skydived. YOU obviously don't know ANYTHING about the sport or its history if you are trying to prove something that we already know has happend but his just plain idiotic.

My suggestion, leave science to other people who know how to systematically develop and implement thorough and reliable testing regimes.

<<<<<<<I do the stuff I do just to see if it can be done. And finding that out is worth every risk. All of us know that. >>>>>>>>>

Aaaahhhh the journey of discovery and progression and development.

After all, its worth every risk isn't it. Lets not worry about the potential of our experiment failing and robbing a persons family of their loved one. Lets not worry about potentially depriving this young person with so much zest for life the opportunity to live it for a long time and contribute something positive to this world.

After all, you are just doing what the hell makes you feel good.

That's it buddy. Your arse is satisfied.

Congratulations on your fabulous, selfless, contribution to the sport.




p.s. Personally, under highly specific circumstances, I am not opposed to BASE jumps first or younger people participating. But each person has to be judged on their merits. But considering the population as a whole, the combo you mention (young / no experience) is very dangerous for the average person and should not be condoned on a general level. Just my opinon.

p.s..s edumacated - is that a word Tom A???

edit to remove personal attacks, and references to and threats of physical violence ~TA

Your choice to participate in a sport so intensely gratifying was personal – same as most of us. When we choose to play, we face death - reality. Here’s a suggestion - instead of just talking to instructors about dealing with students jumping without radios, try spending a little more time talking to the families of our fellow BASE friends that no longer exist in human form due to BASE accidents - reality.

To make the choice of teaching a child, “past puberty”, about a sport that has little, if any, room for error seems to hold some other sort of motivation rather than just the thrill of training a new rabbit. Why is there such a damn rush to teach her?

Don’t burn the sport Jimmy. Maybe, someday you’ll be really famous with your so called “motivational factors” that f**cked it up for the rest of us. I would think you are probably talented enough to pursue your teaching in a more honorable style.

Take deeper hits Jimmy……DEEEEEEEper.

I guess this is what makes the world keep turning – a desire for something that feels good and the fruition of that desire and more importantly – our freedom to have that which we desire. She has someone encouraging her while teaching her to BASE when other experienced BASE jumpers wouldn't have dared even with permission. He gets whatever he gets from giving someone their first experiences with BASE jumping. He likes different and new stuff. Maybe for him this is the next level. In a way, they probably are at the same level in their desire and excitement to keep jumping together regardless of what anyone thinks.

Honestly, most locals at the PC likely think that think this is actually exciting and completely harmless, and they are the ones who know him best. If you want to BASE, and you’re in the area, you’ll most likely be directed to the same person. A lot of people do have respect for him. He doesn’t go out searching for students. They come to him. Some get his time and some don’t – Tis the season for all the employees there to be working long hours at a very busy dz while interacting with a very special boss and to go out in the wee hours to take a newbie into a place that renders them both elated, must mean there’s something worth it all to keep him dedicated and motivated to put himself out there with her when he could be someplace else.

The part about their ages and ethics…who is anyone to judge their “guilt” or “innocence” besides their own selves and her parents? It looks bad to some, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it will go that way. Jimmy is a good guy who is offering Clair her dream to BASE. Each person is allowed their own standards to live by as we properly should be.

Choices and consequences. Risk and reward. Old and young. Life and Death. What was, what is, what could be, what will be…..what’s next?

Good luck guys. I hope this works out well for everyone (Jimmy, Clair, her family, etc.) involved including the BASE community at large.

Stay safe and stay inspiried.

p.s. Will the next video be rated PG-16?

Jimmy,

You post a good argument and I can honestly see you've put a lot of thought into it.

However, several whuffo friends have asked me 'wow, can you teach me to base jump?' I giggle and say, 'get a few hundred skydives in, then we'll talk.' It’s because I don't want to see them get hurt. I don't want the responsibility considering the risk of skydiving vs. the risk of base. They have to figure this out for themselves. I've come to grips with the difference and I believe it’s large. ...I suppose we're just different minded people. I've only argued because I still don't understand.

In this specific situation:
-minimal parachute time
-minimal reaction time
-minimal body awareness time
-lack of risk/reason factor (because of age and lack of experience)

All these are very generalized but very important when pondered imo. C ya.

bwwaaahahaha nice work Nick i like your humor.. how are you theese days anyway?

And one of Hoover's good friends put his own kid out at a relatively young age.

But knowing Hoover...and his friend...and how it was done...I don't see those instances as being comparable to this one.

I guess it's because I remember Hoover as being one of the smartest guys I've ever run into. He was careless with himself in some ways, but that lack of care never extended to anyone else. The same applies to his friend.

I'm struggling with this because I don't know how to easily explain the difference between Hoover and his son, his friend and his daughter, and Jimmy and Clair, but the difference is there, and its a huge one.

I wish he were here to explain it.

RIP Hoover. You're missed.

rl

I once accidently hit my girlfriend in the face with my love rifle. Fuck im hard.

i do that all the time just rember to shoot them in the mouth as they hate to be sticky in their hair

i wonder why we didnt see pics of Clair yet...

edit to remove quotation from previous posts, with references to and threats of physical violence ~TA


I think you handled your self very well until now. I have never met you but was staying open minded to your position on this. Until now all the people threatening you etc looked bad because you kept your composure. Then you drop this I am a bad ass bomb and step too me I will beat your ass. This really in my eyes hurt your position as well as my opinion of you (which I realize means nothing). Next time really think about what your saying. Obviously actions speak louder than words ask the guy that pulled a gun on you with no intention of REALLY using it. He got what he deserved. Threats in a forum are empty, faceless, and childish. Just a thought. Good luck with the training of Clair. Maybe post some good vid so we can see how really good she is.

Just a thought here.

Alot of people are hardballing this girl for starting basejumping without experience.

some of these people are doing things that other people think is stupid with their experience.

some of the people were doing gainers and other hardkore objects when they had low jump numbers

everyone has a level and everyone has a thought about what is right and what is wrong

just because your level is different than some other persons it does not mean it is wrong

base is about freedom and doing things that other people will think is wrong

it is hypocritical to sit there is judgment and say "you are wrong" when you do something that others think are wrong

who are we to judge anyone in this sport

we do it our way and thats it

do be a hypocrite

we all do stupid shit

just some of us end up doing more stupid shit than others

If the girl was over 18 then I don't think people would say as much.

If anything..and I mean ANYTHING happens to her in this sport it will bring about a bad name. Not to mention Jimmy & Claire's parents will be charged with endangerment to a child. If CPS heard word of this they would take her away in a heart beat.

She is free to do what she wants..but if something happens..others will pay, not only her. That's the difference.

Yes, but they were choosing to take those risks for themselves and only endangering themselves.

Last year this time I was attending Duane's funeral, I knew him a bit and that wasn't nice. Then 2 months later Neil died, he was my friend and that hurts a lot. That avatar pic of mine is a screen grab from Neil's video. Since then three of my friends have also been hurt, one only needed some titanium pins and plaster, the other two were hurt badly. My 7th BASE jump I watched the guy exiting before me break both legs.

This has been my experience, it is my understanding that it is only a matter of time until I get hurt, dying is always a real possibility. I choose this level of risk and I have some understanding of it.

Jimmy, do you really want to introduce a sixteen year old to this world?

If you really want anyone to consider what you are saying, you might want to grow some balls and post under your own name. Just a thought.

When I was living in Hawaii I saw all these little kids surfing the shit out of these huge waves on the other side of a sign that had a stencil of a guy under a wave with a broken neck that said "DANGEROUS SURF!" WHen these little kids ran out of the surf they were immediately high-fived by their parents.

People die in the ocean all the time. Why didn't CPS take these kids away from their parents.

Has anyone ever seen MIke Mullins kid swoop? Isn't he like 14? And he sure can swoop. Of all the incidents and fatalities in skydiving, the attmept to swoop often tops the list. Why doesn't CPS take Mike Mullins' kid away.

Talk about bad publicity for BASE: quite often the media is there to take pictures when "the best BASE jumpers in the world" go in right in front of them. Why would anyone represent a sport in a positive light when the "best" keep dieing from preventable disasters.

What about a different story for the media: Smiling sixteen year old girl learns to BASE jump and loves it. Impossible you say? Bad publicity? What about presenting the sport in a less "we're all crazy and know it, but we do it to overcome wierd issues in our lives" way and more of a "this sport is fun and when done right, it can be done safely." Because it can.

Would CPS really take her from her parents in a "heart beat"? I mean is that a legal fact? Cuz they're pretty fired up for her.

Gotta go do a tandem later I'd like to address these good questions:

-minimal parachute time
-minimal reaction time
-minimal body awareness time
-lack of risk/reason factor (because of age and lack of experience)

All,

Threats of physical violence are unacceptable in this forum. Please refrain from doing so in even a hypothetical way.

Jimmy, out of curiosity. Do her parents skydive? Do they BASE jump? Have they been around either one of these sports?

Edited to add: Why not answer the question previously stated by another as well : Jimmy, do you really want to introduce a sixteen year old to this world?

*Also, the reason I ask about her parents involvment in these sports: If they do skydive or base..then they are more messed up then imaginable to be all excited about their daughters new adventures. If they don't...that leads me to believe that if something happens to her their views are going to change dramatically and all will come down on to Jimmy. Why do we sign waivers when we skydive? To prevent DZ's from being sewed. Jimmy....if something happens to this girl...her parents will more than likely blame you and there is no telling what legal action could be taken.

If there is anything as a non jumper that I have learned over time, it is that this is NOT true.

I'm just thinking at Slim's 180 for example. Good exit, probably good packjob, very experienced guy. Still he got hurt. Everything was done right, but it didn't turn out 'right'.

I have been convinced -- I am taking a bunch of children on my next BASE expedition!

haha, this makes me think of a video of Jhonny Utah who was talking to some children about base. At the end he asked who wanted to jump and a large group of the kids raised their hands.
Hilarious

Yes I think someone of 16 is way too unprepared to BASE jump

Yes I too have lost friends and also have plenty of metal work to remind me what is real

Stating law that will come down on these people if this fucking stupid 16 year old gets hurt is slightly confusing as most of the time we don’t really stick to the law now do we?

But I understand what you are saying

She is way too young to decide for herself and way too inexperienced in parachuting to make an informed choice

But my point is that a lot of people on here are handballing someone going against the grain and going against the normality of what is right

This hardballing seems to be actually more toward the mentor of this obvious injury / death to occur

but my point is how can we all sit in judgement when we all do things against the grain and put a tongue out to the the rules

Who says what is right and what is wrong

With the amount of people coming into the sport at the moment the ethics side is getting diluted so much

If you want to be involved with the way the sport is going (and people unprepared is one of the ways it is going no matter how much we try to stop it) then you must accept the way people are getting into the sport. You can’t fight it and you can’t change the way the world is going. No amount of internet bitching, advice, talking, phone calls, emails etc etc etc is going to change it. Accept it and hug it or just leave it and just keep the underground aspect of emails and phone calls going that allows people to jump and get a bed in places they visit. The people getting a fast track will soon realise you cant get into this sport and jump / get a bed anywhere in the world unless they work for it. Fuck them

If you don’t agree with what is happening with the sport and you can’t control it, as actually no one can. Why not just walk away from this “I am a base jumper” mentality on the forums and just go and have fun with what you want to do.

Fuck the newbies with fuck all experience and let them deal with the fallout themselves. They wont have friends all over the world, and when they fuck up they and their mentors will reap the rewards of it.

Do I qualify?

Only if you have the mind of a child.

If priorities are safe and fun then stick to skydiving. Even people who only jump easier objects like TF bridge or that A we see so often in your movies will eventually up the ante. Why? Because after 30 jumps off the bridge you decide to do a gainer, then a double-gainer etc etc. Look at that A in your movie or even Norway for that matter. Human nature is to push the envelope so we take what should be an easy jump and complicate it. Now when you are a bit older you hopefully know to only push the envelope a little at a time and when to pull back. But a teenager?

With all the cross-fire on here about gender and lack of skydiving background, the real issue is getting lost a bit. My argument to you Jimmy would be that a teenager who really is heads-up enough to BASE jump should be heads-up enough to wait a while. Sounds like a Catch 22, but that is what I believe.

And of course there is the problem of precedent, can you imagine all the 16 year olds all over the world reading this and going 'Cool, if a 16 year old chick can do it so can I!'. Unless we start advocating 0.5 wingloadings their gear won't be of much use to us after they go in. Because they will because they know better and they are special and we don't understand them.

Partly I still reckon this has all been one big colossal wind-up thought up by you, Miles and Shane. If so, cool because it has prompted some good debate on what was fast becoming a wishy washy forum filled with shite.

Will

Jimmy,

I totally agree with you on that one. There are so many things that parents are allowing their children to do that could result in serious injury or death and nothing is thought of it. It’s just that BASE and Skydiving are not as mainstream as other things like surfing, great example, so they are looked at differently. People see jumping out of a plane or off an object as crazy but not a huge wave and the undertow that could easily slam you into the ground and drown you.

I knew a guy who was doing motocross in high school when he was 16. He showed me some of the jumps he was doing and if he had had a bad landing he could have easily been seriously injured. It is my perception that only because it is more mainstream and on TV, X games, people look at it differently.

I also agree that in the future the world of BASE will be changing. Your point earlier about students and ram air canopies is a good indicator of this. Some things that look like a bad idea now change over time with good results. Same with static line and AFF. There is no need to do static line when AFF is perfectly safe. I don’t think the change in BASE will be any time soon but it will definitely happen.

L8er
D

O.K.,
so say I tell Clair to go away and come back when she's 18...she goes in. Is that better? I'd feel the same.

Say I tell her to go away and come back when she's 18 and has 250 skydives...she goes in. Wuold that be better? I'd feel the same.

I'd feel the same if anyone I taught went in during the early days of their jumping when to a large degree I am responsible for their safety. At some point we feel less responsible for our students, but that's a grey area too.

The question for many seems to be that I'm breaking an ethical law that has something to do with protecting minors from even their parents. Show me the law and I'll stop this instant. seriously someone call CPS, tell them you know of a guy who's teaching a 16 year old to participate in a potentialy dangerous sport that is not governed by any oficial government agency, and that said teenager's parents are fully aware of these activities. Ask them if they were told where this child lives would they go confiscate her from her parents? Honestly I'd like to know.

Slims 180 was not at this object. Sites are the number one contributing factor to risk when it comes to BASE jumping

"Why not answer the question previously stated by another as well : Jimmy, do you really want to introduce a sixteen year old to this world?"

Sorry that's a stupid, loaded question. Why not ask why anyone would want to bring a child into this god forsaken world of misery and disease unless they were millionaires and could afford to buy their offspring an easy, safe ride through life?

If BASE jumping is really this dangerous we need to cap it now and not bring any more of our friends into it. Because if it really is as dangerous as many of you say then no one at any age is capable of making an informed, inteligent decision about participating in it.

I sit on the other side of the what if? fence than many of you. otherwise I wouldn't ever get out of bed. It's a very unsafe world.

My main disagreement with you is on the skydiving experience front. Plain and simple.

I personally believe that there are several vital survival skills that can only be learned in the skydiving environment. You obviously disagree with me, but I'm as confident in my position as you are in yours so we're at an impasse there.

I also believe that putting someone off an object who does not possess those skills is reckless. Again, we obviously disagree and neither of us is going to budge on that position.

However, I DO agree with you that the biggest determinant of risk in our sport is the object. So I certainly hope you're teaching her object assessment skills while you're performing this experiment upon her.

Jimmy

If posting about this had nothing to do with publicity, then I retract my statement. It was purely a speculation and often speculation goes no where. The statement did however, spark a pretty good response from you.

You and I don't agree on some things and to that we've already agreed to disagree. As far as the non-skydiving participant in the BASE realm, I'll leave that alone and add this.

Since the CPS has been mentioned, and one thing that hasn't been mentioned, what about contributing to the delinquency of a minor? BASE in and of itself is not an illegal activity. Trespassing is. If you both are caught on that object, who's to say you won't be charged with contributing? I'm curious because I don't know.

People contribute all the time in other ways but I'm curious about this in particular.

Thoughts?

Tim,
Good question. When I spoke with Clair's mom on the phone, she asked "what laws are you breaking." I told her that as far as I knew, the only law we were breaking out there is tresspassing. I said we'd for sure get cited for that if we were caught. She had no problem with that.

So I guess I'd have to say I'm willing to risk a contributing to a minor tresspassing ticket.

Playing devil's advocate here.

Many of you stated that the problem is not the age of the girl but the fact that she has no skydiving experience or the proper maturity yet I did not see this hell raising with any of other death camp candidates.

If you claim your only concern is the lack of "aerial" skills than you are an hypocrite.

The BIG problems I see here, the ones that piss off a lot of people, are the age of the girl, to a lesser extent the gender, and the fact that the trainer is Jimmy.

Many of you are boosted by big egos so you cannot face the fact that a little 16-year old girl can BASE. Face it.

Many of you are genuinely concerned that she lacks the maturity to fully understand the consequences of jumping off things. That could or could not be true. If you don't know her than there is no way you can know for sure that she lacks the true understanding of the dangerous nature of our sport. By the way I know plenty of "mature" people who don't understand the danger of BASE, PLENTY...

Many of you throw laws and ethics here and there just to boost up your arguments. As far as law is concerned I don't think that Jimmy is braking any (besides trespassing), and as far as ethics go, well ethic is an hypothetical construct. Every single one of us lives by different ethical principles. By the way the vast majority of the word out there believe that trespassing and jumping objects is unethical...and many also think that burning Jet A for satisfying our adrenaline needs is unethical...

If Clair dies during her training chances are Jimmy won't get prosecuted (an actual attorney please comment on this one) but her parents or heirs will most likely win a civil law suit against Jimmy if they decide to sue but I don't know how much money or goods the dude has.

I bet that if Tom was training a 16-year old boy skydiving "virgin", the responses seen would look much different than the oned on this thread (just an example, I know Tom would not do it).

Again, playing the devil's advocate here. I neither condone nor undermine Jimmy's act and not knowing the guy I cannot form an opinion on him or his motovations.

Not if what the other guy/gal is doing is actually wrong, whereas what I'm doing is merely misunderstood.



I agree with you 100%. I would find it ironic that BASE jumpers so frequently feel they have a right to set danger standards for others (age, experience, and "the good of the sport" being irrelevant in my opinion) if I weren't profoundly disappointed instead.

no, surfing & motocross are BAD examples. they compare poorly to BASE.

initiates to surfing are first taught to swim, then paddle, and maybe some balancing lessons on the beach.

motocross riders first develop their skills on relatively flat land.

in both situations, the student gets to perform their activity in a very controlled and safe environment.

and youths will literally spend all their free time pursuing these sports. compare their time on bike or board to anyone's under canopy.

while I'm betting Jimmy did his best, I'm not convinced a "safe" BASE environment exists, anywhere.

-----
and gender should not play any role in a discussion regarding her abilities. it actually may help Clair as teenage BOYS tend to act more recklessly.

gender plays a role only if Jimmy is attracted to her. I'll defer to Tom's post.

I just feel recently there has been a large increase of people into the sport that have not done things by the book but as soon as they get a few jumps and a few gainers under their belt start to spout ethics and rules about how to do things.

Some people have done everything possible to maintain the correct way to do things, but get lambasted by people for being too anal or being too controlling. BASE is such a close and personal sport that one persons way may not be another persons way but does not deserve the negativity that it gets as its deemed incorrect.

we have no rules

we have no governing body

we all jump the way we want to

if someone upsets you in the way they jump then dont jump with them and dont invite them to stay at your house when they are local.

If you are happy with the way you carry yourself and the way you jump then why bother getting upset about what people are doing around you.

If people are burning your object and not giving a fuck about ethics then why not leave your object alone and go jump something else. It is they that will end up looking like cunts for shutting the object down and have karma eventually kicking them.

As Carl said, the whole world is jumpable, and there is much out there. Getting upset about specifics is taking away the beauty of this sport from you personally. Fuck the people without respect, the people with respect will always find a way to be true to the sport. Leave the rest to their own games, eventually it goes wrong for them.

Trying to stop people getting hurt for "the good of the sport" is a lost cause nowadays. Too many people, too many under prepared people. We can not control this anymore. This beast is out of control. No matter what you say to people, the BASE world is changing and its a time to choose what part you want to play in it.

And although perhaps in bad form and will upset people, I have to agree with this statement
Although certain people did amazing things for the BASE world, they actually did give bad publicity too through their highly publicized deaths. Having “world respected” or “worlds best” in a death report rather than “some guy from xxxxx” just showed the world that highly skilled people die doing this, so why cant their son / daughter die too?

In the end, fuck the politics, and lets go back to basics, its getting too much like a the DZ

Perhaps "Getting your panties in a wad" should be a separate forum under "Related Sports"?

Edit to add: It really is too bad that you're posting anonymously, though, not just for those who disagree with you, but for those who agree as well...

I seriously doubt that. Tom is a respected member of the BASE community, and is well known on DZ.com as the BASE zone moderator. This should earn him a little slack with us, but not in this situation.

BASE jumpers are actually a very intelligent group, and I'm not inclined to believe that they would abandon their ethics and morals regardless of which jumper was pushing in this direction.

BASE jumpers are, for the most part, willing to speak up when something is out of place.

I'm not going to enter an opinion on whether or not Jimmy is in the wrong. That's not my place. I'm simply saying that even though Tom is well respected in the community, his judgement has been questioned in the past. He's human, just like you and me. Human, and accountable.

There are two standards: legal and ethical.

On the legal side, if you disobey a law--deliberately or by accident--you take your chances with the consequences.

In this case, we have a violation of at least one California law and possibly others:

Cal. Penal Code § 273a (West Supp. 1998)

Any person who, under circumstances or conditions likely to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be injured, or willfully causes or permits that child to be placed in a situation where his or her person or health is endangered, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison for 2, 4 or 6 years.

Jimmy is a legal adult, who is permitted by law to make his own decisions. Clair is a legal incompetent who is not. Clair's parents have the legal responsibility to protect her welfare, but they do not have the legal right to sign away her right to safety. Only Clair can do that--but not until she becomes legally competent to do so.

So you're hanging out there, Jimmy, with potential criminal and civil penalties in the offing if you fuck up and maybe even if you don't.

On the ethical side, my own belief is that laws regarding victimless crimes are the legislation of the paternalistic, and as such, are made to be broken. As I see it, if you choose to do something that does not adversely impact others, no one has the right to forbid you freedom to do as you will, even if it damages you. IMO, BASE fits very neatly into such an ethical system.

Teaching Clair to base jump at this time and in this manner does not.

rl

makes sense.

why are you so upset?

Is this not enough?

Cal. Penal Code § 273a (West Supp. 1998)

Any person who, under circumstances or conditions likely to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be injured, or willfully causes or permits that child to be placed in a situation where his or her person or health is endangered, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison for 2, 4 or 6 years.

(Thanks Rhonda...I knew it was out there just hadn't been able to locate it.) Jimmy...you truely are setting yourself up for criminal charges....I hope you see that.

Why are you all so worried about jimmy setting himself up for legal problems i think we all take a risk with the law when we step up to that exit point.

Imagine the media circus if this girl got killed?

I bet that would really help BASE grow as a sport...

Application of the law is not a black-or-white exercise. While BASE is clearly dangerous and CAN result in injury or death, lots of other activities can, as well. If it were a slam dunk that what Jimmy is doing would violate the quoted statute, then it would also be a slam dunk that many other things people do everyday would, as well, such as downhill mountain biking, motocross, big wave surfing, certain skating disciplines. All of those things place the participant "in a situation where his or her person or health is endangered." Yet minors engage in such activities every day, with full knowledge of the authorities, and their parents are not being prosecuted for letting them do it. That is not to say that if Clair went in a prosecutor couldn't try to use this to prosecute Jimmy, but if he or she did, it would not be an automatic conviction. He or she would have to prove endangerment, and while her going in would appear to do that, each successful jump she makes without going in works in the opposite direction.

HHHMMMMM. that's got me thinking. Thanks for finding that, but of course there's gonna be a law like that.

Anyway I'm gonna talk to a lawyer. As good as we all are at speculating, I wanna hear what a professional has to say.

Just keep in mind that I always knew I'd get in trouble if she got hurt. It's my arguement that she's not gonna.

I think laws like that only get pursued in the event of an incident, but like I said I will talk to alawyer and pass that along to her parents.

You've all done very well. Thanks

Seems a little niave jimmy. Dont get me wrong, I dont really have an opinion about what your doing, but a blanket I dont thhink she'll get hurt with less than a minute of FF & Canopy time COMBINED. I'd say the jury is still out.

-nice seeing you again last monday

--Nic

Have YOU read The World BASE Fatalities List Jimmy?

You saying you know some magical safety formula that Carl, Nik, Skypunk, Lukas, Rob, Slim, Jason and the 83 others weren't privy to?

If you are, please do us all a public service and provide us with that revelation.

look, i'm no vet in the BASE jumping world. but from what i know, as some of you may remember i came into this game a very cocky arrogant, punk.

i pissed a few people off and jumped with very little under canopy time and guess what, i sprained my ankle on my first jump. imagine that.

now this argument about taking someone up with no skydives and no previous experience flying, really blows me away. i thought we were supposed to be teaching new jumpers what the danger is in the sport and why it is soo important that you need a certain number of skydives and FJC's that are higly reccomended to everyone. but then just taking someone up and telling them to yank on the "seatbelts" when their canopy opens and hope for the best really makes me shudder.

i dont mean to bash anyone saying any of this i just dont agree with it.

My stance: I think it's a bad idea. Extrapoolate upon that as much as you wish.


Jimmy is known for a bit of theatrics. Keep that in mind.

OK just so everybody knows...

The "yonkels" and "seatbelts" thing is from a deathcamp video made by Shane and the rest of the Red Bull crew. I personally find it disgusting and degrading (not to us, but to the poor souls who have no idea that their ignorance is being made a mockery of).

Apparently Jimmy's "training program" consists solely of this video... as Clair STILL refers to toggles as "yonkels" and risers as "seatbelts". Everything else is "we'll see how she does when it happens".

So Jimmy, at what altitude did you tell Clair to "shlare them yonkels"?

Oh, and Clair. Did you know that that bag of dogfood is the second take? The first bag of dogfood went into line twists and hit the wall.

Just so you know...

If I say that I believe she's not gonna get hurt while I teach her is just how I feel. She stuck the shit out of her first jump and why should I believe it will be any different with her next ten that we plan to do at the same object under the same conditions.

This morning we got winded out so she got her experience with driving 3 hours to a site just to look at it for an hour then drive three hours back home.

The name of a little piece of canvas that you hold onto when you flair your canopy, tarp, sheet, parachute, kite, trashbag.....doesn't matter. A rose by any other name still smells as sweet, right? The thing about language and communication is that as long as one person understands the other it's considered successful. Why would it disgust anybody to call the damn thing a yonkel. She knows it's a fucking toggle.

I don't consider a sprained ankle being hurt. But she didn't even get that. She unstowed her breaks, turned into the wind flaired the whatever the fuck you call it, at the exact altitude that I told her, and stood up her landing. I said good job you just earned yourself another jump.

I'm not naive you stupid bastards I've watched just as many people die as any of you. And for the last time do not compare my first jump course with the fatality list of people who died at buildings, cliffs or other places doing things that a girl with 10 base jumps won't be doing.

I can guarantee you she will not have an object strike, she will have canvas above her head, or nylon, or whatever the fucking tarps are made out of, and she will be landing in a feild of grass. That's exactly what a skydiving school can offer. And on a skydiving students canopy program the only bit that matters is the last 50 feet. I don't care if they open at 4,500 feet and practice flairing 600 times. What matters is the last bit. Are they facing into the wind and will they flair their pantaloons symmetricaly at the right time?

I watched a seventeen year old girl who's been off student status for a total of 6 jumps land fully crosswind today and barely flaired past her shoulders. She barrel rolled a ton of times bounced up and was like "what the fuck? I gotta do that again just better." It was funny as hell. That's about the worst thing that will happen to Clair at the place I'm teaching her. DO YOU NOT ALL GET THAT?

Obviously I'm over it. By the way I haven't read the base fatality list. Could someone tell me if anyone on it was learning to base jump safely at the object I'm refering to?

Yonkels

Boy, hit a raw nerve, did I? Good.

I was married to a narcissist. I know the personality type. I know how to press your buttons.


I get it. I get that you're lying to her at worst or not fully disclosing the truth at the least.


I can tell by your attitude and approach.


Knowing what I know now, I am 100% conviced that you are not teaching her how to safely BASE jump. Your lack of responsiveness to our questions and "whatever happens, happens" attitude bears that out.

Regardless, there's a first for everything. You obviously seem Keen 'N Able to make that happen.

Ok, so I've been reading this post since it started and I'm just wondering, Jimmy, if someone approaches you and asks you to teach them how to BASE, what influences if you say yes or no? How do you decide who to take on as a student?

Dude..............yup, that's the one. Side shot, quad gainer...yo. K, no worries...
Did very much like the editing of RAdix! Regardless of politics and rails etc.......edited nicely and that's what interests me.

PM sent

Yo

Good question. When Clair first emailed me, I almost said no. Then I was like what the hell,and asked her whether or not she was athletic. Her reply was "last Winter I finaly stuck a back flip on a snowboard after landing on my neck wierd a few times." Then I called the references she gave me and they all said she "was pretty hard core." Most others have been friends at the DZ. I definitely have a certain "type" of person that I prefer to teach. You know the type: not lame.

However, with Clair it's a moot point now anyway cuz I got legal advice and I'm gonna stop teaching her until she's 18.

I said she drove three hours each way. If you all think that this was an attempt to sleep with a sixteen year old girl. You should look at yourselves cuz that thought never once crossed my mind.

Your questions were repetitive and they struck a nerve because they never addressed the issue that at the right object, under the right conditions, with the right instruction BASE jumping can be taught safely to someone with no skydiving experience. My "see what hapens" attitude is the same attitude we all take whenever we jump or teach someone else to jump. I know how I should react or would like to react, but I won't know how I will actualy react to linetwists until I have them. I jump anyway cuz I know that when i get them "we'll see what happens" I know how a student should react and I know how I told them to react but I don't know how they will actualy react until they have them. Is it wrong to say that we'll see how my student reacts to line twists when she gets them. What else can I honestly say? No matter which avenue you take when teaching someone to BASE jump you too are taking a "we'll see what happens" attitude because you just don't know what's going to happen until whatever is going to happen happens, and then you see. I never expect someone to get hurt when i take them BASE jumping for the first time and if any of you do, why do you do it. I say, "I don't expect you to get hurt, but you might. Just do what i told you and have fun."

Do you all tell the people you teach, "you are going to die or get hurt doing this. But go ahead anyway?"

What on God's green earth does my reading or not reading the fatality list have to do with anything. I know of most of the fatalities already and the ones I don't know about wouldn't surprise me.

For those of you who do not plan on buying my video, thanks. I would hate for you sacrefice your morals supporting a bastard like myself. For those of you who do, you'll be able to check out Clair's short lived, underaged stint with the sport of BASE jumping.

By the way, yonkels

Dude..... you and I (and many others) know that Chris was an exception among mortals!! He was gifted and does not represent the "average" learning curve! NO way, no how..........

edited to add... Chris grew up flying from the moment of self-awareness, his dad (Willi) was already a legend in the flying community

No. Except when she first experiences them on a BASE jump where there's no altitude to spare.

The rest of us (yourself included Jimmy) have experienced them on skydives where we had just a LITTLE bit of time to recognize the issue and then deal with it.

When it happened on a BASE jump (and yes I've had 180s with multiple line twists on a tower), I'd seen and dealt with it before and had a bit of an instinctual response to it. I wasn't doing the "whatever happens, happens" thing, I was using skills I had learned in the skydiving world. Those skills saved my life.

So you can say whatever you want. You can give all the reassurances you want. You can tell people "nothing will happen to you...TRUST ME".

Someone wiser than me once said "words are only worth the paper they're written on". You're all words, no substance.

Although it might seem logical to think that having made successful jumps before getting hurt or killed would be evidence of non-endangerment, I don't think it's relevant. The analogy that probably works is that of drunk driving. If you drive drunk ten times with your kid in the car and nothing happens, it doesn't mean you're going to be off the hook when you kill or maim him the eleventh time.

As for the other dangerous activities you mentioned, they're not as lethal as BASE on a statistical scale. Further, as wwarped pointed out, they begin with a progression that allows one to gain proficiency over time. In BASE, it's sink or swim the very first time.

I admit, I didn't bother to look at any case law. But not being inclined to go off half-cocked, I did discuss it fully with a lawyer--one who has seen just about everything, because he's been practicing for 50 years. Given the outcome of that little chat, if I were the parent of a minor child, I wouldn't even sign a skydiving waiver.

But Jimmy has said he's going to stop teaching Clair until she's 18, so it's moot.

What isn't moot is the discussion of whether teaching someone BASE without any skydiving experience is a legitimate method. IMO, someone with a lot of skydiving experience is at a disadvantage because they have ingrained reactions to unlearn when beginning BASE. On the other hand, canopy skills are essential, so just throwing someone off an object doesn't look like a very good idea. My question then is this: in a perfect world, how would you design the perfect pre-base parachuting course?

rl

have you met Clair?
how does she differ?

-----

when this thread started, I had a negative image of Jimmy. but he showed amazing composure under a full on assault. he also responded to solid logic. he obviously has thought through a lot of this.

I do not know the conditions behind his training, so I can't actually comment. it appears quite wrong, but I've tried to keep an open mind. personally, I don't wish to train ANYBODY. that's just me.

the hard, emotional, unwavering opinions to shut Jimmy down, without knowing all the facts, reminds me of the attitudes of NPS rangers.

it appears the critics have won in this case, thanks to a clear law. something the NPS lacks.

yimmyh, you ar an idiot..... full stop

*playing devil's advocate*
what if she had purchased a base rig and jumped anywhere without training ??

maybe i`m not alowed to post here about technical/only base jump threads (because of my low skydiving experience and NO base experience)...

to make a long story short..
how do u plan to teach her a few esential skills without skydiving?

- tracking... i think base jump is not only to jump from a "safe" object... in the future ur student will need this skill

- canopy control (and fast reaction/reflexes in dangerous situations) - with 45 second of canopy flight on every jump i dont think the student can learn something... she will be focused only to land

winds - if she jump at that "safe" object with same winds jump by jump, how can she learn about jumping in different winds

setups - if she jump the same setup at every jump at the "safe" object

etichs - no comment

someday she will jump alone... someday she will need those skills
that are my questions

PS... sorry for my silly english

Aaaahhh but its worth it.

At least that is what Bubba Butt is saying.

MMMmmmmmmm - white boy jailbait.

Come over here and create a fluid removing vacuum around Momma's . . . . . .

Some people never get it!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<What else can I honestly say? No matter which avenue you take when teaching someone to BASE jump you too are taking a "we'll see what happens" attitude because you just don't know what's going to happen until whatever is going to happen happens, and then you see. I never expect someone to get hurt when i take them BASE jumping for the first time and if any of you do, why do you do it. I say, "I don't expect you to get hurt, but you might. Just do what i told you and have fun." >>>>>>>>>>>>>



Oh ho ho ha ha he hi ho......................

EXCEPT ONE OBVIOUS THING LOVE CHOPS!!!!!!!!!!

Most of us don't exclude the 52 training steps you are too bored to include when we train our students!!!!!!! Like step 1 - ETHICS. Step 2 - there is no step 2 - you should not be stepping yet. You should still be crawling at this stage. Crawl before you can walk. Step 3 - still not there yet. You have to stand up now. Step 4 - yep, now we are getting somewhere. We can step now!!!! See, that's not so hard!!!!!!

Suggestion - don't try to explain yourself Jimmy. Just go out and have fun the way you want.

The mere fact that you are trying to make a 10th explanation of what happened indicates that either you have doubt in your mind or you are concerned about the response you have received from the wider BASE community. Guilty conscience. Can't deal with it. Ner ner ner ner ner ner.

Redeem yourself brother, for the Lord can save your soul. Henceforth you may truly become what you desire to be. A respectable BASE jumper.

xoxoxoxo

I seriously hope you take BASE jumping a bit more serious than this thread. if you bring the same emotion to hucking off a tower as I just read, dude, you're asking to get hurt!

stop, and think.
a few years ago USPA changed its model from a huge, all-encompassing FJC to the ISP. it trains students progressively, as they need the knowledge.

it may be wise, it may not.

Tom A., Apex, etc. teach an all-encompassing FJC.

Jimmy seems to get a committment from his students to a series of training sessions. he actually can use the famous "building block" approach, and does not have to unlearn bad habits.

neither model alone will prepare any student for any eventuality. (wingsuit BASE anyone?)

sure, I can find flaws in EVERYONE's training regime. and Jimmy's has obvious weeknesses. and until I actually saw him teaching, I WOULD NOT recommend it.

still, I prefer his calm rational style on this forum. that is what I want at the exit point. not incensed emotion. (or for that matter, dealing when with the authorities...)

I just heard Clair is a few weeks away from joining the US Marines. Good luck with the training and take care if they station you out in the gulf.

Let's jump together when you get back.

ian

Actually, yes, I do.

The very first thing I do when meeting with new students is sit them down, explain the risks to them, tell them that there is a very good chance they will be seriously injured if they pursue BASE seriously, and then have them write a letter to their family explaining that if they die, they were jumping of their own free will, for their own reasons.

good for her...now thats what i call endangering a minor...hey Jimmy you might need one of these if things get out of hand....

http://www.soaponarope.com/...&Category_Code=A

maybe DDog could give you some tips..

There is a well respected Canadian BASE instructor who has been teaching a "progressive step" BASE course (with AFF-like level system) for many years.

The major problem with the "step" structure in BASE is that the student can choose to do just the first level or two, and then get their hands on gear and go chuck themselves off stuff. Unlike skydiving (where the student has to resume their training, no matter where they show up next), in BASE there is a large chance for unregulated jumping by the student.

Also, since good BASE training objects are usually a bit further away than your DZ, it's harder for the student to come back again and again to finish the training. It makes sense to run the progression all at once, in a comprehensive course, because it puts a great burden on the student to expect them to travel a thousand miles or more every weekend to do the next step or three.

In general, if you could find a student who was local to a good training object, and would commit to not jumping without the instructor until the end of the training program, I think a stepped progression would be ideal. It would give the student more time to think and digest each step. But in the real world, it's hard (not impossible, see above) to actually implement this kind of program.

<<<<<<<I seriously hope you take BASE jumping a bit more serious than this thread. if you bring the same emotion to hucking off a tower as I just read, dude, you're asking to get hurt! >>>>>>>>

Thank you for your worldy advice.

Do you think I take it seriously? Let me give you some clues. I developed and spent six years in the role of Safety Officer of one of the more prominent BASE associations in the world!!!! A number of technical articles around the planet are penned as a result of my seriousness. Quite a few jumpers have been trained by myself, some quite prominent. Assuming the role of "fun police" has adversly affected some of my relationships in the BASE community. But that is the nature of the role. It is NOT to encourage death/accidents just to keep friends. Living colleagues are better than dead friends. IMHO

BTW - Have you seen a dead body that has been badly distorted by the combination of terminal and a wall? Have you risked your life trying to locate the body of a jumper in the vain hope that (s)he may be alive? Have you had to tell a mother that her beloved son has died? Have you had to coordinate cliff rescues because some jumper decided to drug out beforehand or just go to step 10 of their development instead of progressing in a logical sequential manner? Have you had to deal with incessant media enquiries following a BASE accident? I HAVE.

Do I have an idea why all these events happened? Damned well I do. Cutting out steps is one of the main factors.

DO I TAKE IT SERIOUSLY? - VERY.

<<<<<<stop, and think. a few years ago USPA changed its model from a huge, all-encompassing FJC to the ISP. it trains students progressively, as they need the knowledge. >>>>>>>

Progressively???? Like steps. Do you mean like, step 1 - altitude awareness and basic body position. Step 2 . . . etc. That sounds like a great idea!!!!! Isn't that what I was alluding to????

<<<<<<still, I prefer his calm rational style on this forum. that is what I want at the exit point. not incensed emotion. (or for that matter, dealing when with the authorities...)>>>>>>>

If you were the parent of an injured/dead person, I am sure you would appreciate someone coming to your door and blankly saying. Your child is dead. Its all cool. (S)he was relaxed at the exit point just before going in. Never mind that your child missed a few learning opportunities prior to going on. The calmness was important.

Every now and again, people need reality to slap them in the face BEFORE the consequences become too great. Being nicey, nicey all the time does not work for everyone. Ask JJ, Spacy Tracy, etc. The "incensed emotion" is a product of the total disregard for common sence, BASE ethics, and human life itself. "It was worth it". Come on. That is weally warped thinking!

<<<<<<<Jimmy seems to get a committment from his students to a series of training sessions. he actually can use the famous "building block" approach, and does not have to unlearn bad habits.>>>>>>>>>>

You are right. He does not have to unlearn any bad habits. But the problem is, he actually may be teaching them from the in the first place!!! Lack of respect for human life is one of those bad habits!!!!

I have made no real comment on his training program. I don't know the details. It may be wonderful. I am VERY concerned about his devil may care attitude of "it was with it" when referring to the question of how he would feel if his "experiment" as he called it, failed. No loss of human life is worth it when the end result is not beneficial to the advancement of mankind and has known results/outcomes already. This would be a simple case of repeating mistakes. I would not want my child ANYWHERE near him!!!!! You Sir, may think differently. Would you allow your kids to be trained by Jimmy? Honestly. Would you???????????

BTW - could you explain to me how the experiment / it was worth it angle is acceptable human behaviour??? I don't really understand your stance on that?

p.s. I suggest you look up the word "SARCASM". You may have a clearer understanding of what/why I have written!!!!!

Perhaps this one might be good to split off, but I do think the face of BASE training will change in the future. We SHOULD be constantly refining and evolving... that's what the learning process is all about.

It's also where a knowledge of history is important. What you may think is a good idea may have already been tried in the past, only to find that there were unexpected side effects that ultimately made it a poor fit for the BASE environment. Spectra lines is one example.

In any event, as far as training goes, I actually think Clint (in cooperation with Jimmy & Marta at Apex I believe) at Skydive Moab has the right idea and approach. I don't know how far he's gotten with it, but I do know that he was working on a skydiving training progression specifically tailored to aspiring BASE jumpers. It's a 50-jump course if I'm not mistaken.

With that sort of focused, skill-intensive, approach, I could easily see one of his students being as prepared, if not better prepared, for BASE jumping than just a standard skydiver with 200-300 jumps.

You forgot (at least) one other possible inference: he is simply responding to the comments of others. If after his first explanation no one else had commented, he probably would not have offered any further "explanations." But people HAVE commented, and Jimmy has simply responded. That's called dialogue, and it's supposedly what forums like this are for. If Jimmy hadn't responded to any of the comments, people would be on here screaming, "where's Jimmy? Answer our questions!" So, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with what Jimmy is (now apparently WAS) doing, it is improper to conclude from the fact that Jimmy HAS responded that he now has "doubts" about what he is doing or is "concerned" about the responses or that he has a "guilty conscience" about it. As far as I can see, Jimmy has simply been responding to the many questions and comments people have asked and made, and for the most part (the chest-pounding remarks in response to suggestions of tar and feathering aside), I think he has done so with a great deal of patience and composure.

Agree totally Tom.

What I am saying is that people need learn in a logical / sequential manner.

If a person decides to go it alone or go from never seeing a parachute to wingsuit jumping severly underhung cliffs in 10 jumps, that is NOT learning in steps.

IMHO - jumping without ANY prior parachuting experience is not the best overall teaching strategy.

When you teach your course (I'd love to sit in one day), I bet you teach along the lines of:

1 - ethics
2 - show me your previous parachuting experience and show me that you have at least picked up XY skills
3 - equipment & configuration
4 - short/no delays with basic boxman /equivalent body position
5 - longer delays, BOC.

etc
etc

And I think you are correct. It is better to learn more in a thorough course that will prepare you better for the real world. Purely because jumpers tend to be independant spirits.

All the best.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

 
I AGREE TOTALLY

Hello Clair,

What would bother me in your place is, after read Jimmys responses about his motivation, you seem to be just a "proof of concept" (crashing dummy or just a mouse somewhere in a laboratory) that "IT" is doable. I wouldn't like to be that.

I personally have nothing against jumping off stuff without skydiving (where I think it is a bad idea). Fact is, there is nothing better to learn to fly your body than skydiving. So in BASE you will not progress that fast, and you have to be reallyreally patient before doing the bigger jumps, means evolving in this sport. (And finding yourself beside a big cliff, it is really hard no say no, cause you can't fly your body there is the where the risky part lies..)

Third, to say someone succeed doing BASE is a bit big... I think noone of us can say we succeeded doing it (except those who stopped jumping alive).

all the best
t.

Which, for the vast majority of skydivers, would be to start kicking out of them. I'm guessing that, except on the really tall stuff where you're a mile and a half from the face, "start kicking out" is not what the folks here are going to suggest as a first response to line twists.

Skydiving teaches responses. Some good, some bad for the BASE environment. I've seen a lot of BD video that would argue that the response for line twists is solidly among the latter. I think skydiving can be valuable preparation for BASE, but one should understand its limitations.

Absolutely true. It does depend on the object. In the case of an imminent strike, you're going to want to reach above the twists and try to get turned around first before dealing withthe twists themselves.

first off, in all seriousness, thank you for your efforts, caring, and passion.

my point is, the equivalent of yelling or screaming at people doesn't change them. sure it can affect their behavior, for awhile. if you wish to change their thinking, it is a poor tactic.

surely, when faced with the various stessfull situations you described, you acted calmly and quite focused. especially dealing with family members. it can't be easy and probably caused sleepless nights.

I just think it would be appropriate to show the readers of this forum the same respect. (oh, and later posts have done that. again, thank you.)


if experimentation is unacceptable, does that mean you don't respect Carl, Mike Pelkey, or the others?

I don't believe THAT.
I'd rather think various innovators have been your friends.

as far as children jumping go, I'm happy that Jimmy has chosen to stop training them.

that alone makes this thread very productive.

There is a very large difference between experimenting upon oneself (putting only one's one life at risk), and experimenting upon others (risking others health and safety). The divide grows yet larger when considering minors as the subject for your experimentation.

I think this might be the last thing I have to say on this particular thread...

The "it's and experiment thing"

Again, to refer to the Bill Booth tandem waiver video that thousands of people sign at the DZ that I work at, many of which are parents sitting next to their sixteen year old children.
(keep in mind we still show the old waiver video, don't know if it's been changed)
Bill Booth: "by signing this document ("Test jumper agreement") you agreeing to become part of a study to prove the safety and effectiveness of the tandem jumping system. In the future, the document you may be asked to sign may be different, after a rule change by the FAA."

I told Claire and her mom about my theories about teaching non skydivers to BASE jump. I explained my proposed progression and when I thought skydiving classes would become an absolute neccessity. I told them I had yet to impliment these "theories" or as some might call them cocimaimy ideas, and in that sense Clair was agreeing to become a "test case" "experimental jumper" "guinea pig" whatever. I just call things what they are, and for me Clair was an experiment, one that she, for reasons of her own, was willing to be a part of.

THe experiment is over, cuz after legal advice, I realize I don't want to go to court in a "State of California vs. Dumbass" case of manslaughter.

But if calling her an experiment and saying we'd see what happens makes me an asshole so be it. I was just using similar language to what Bill Booth used.

Do she have a rig at her own?
could she keep going "testjumping"
are you sure she wont go solo by her self now?
what have you advised her to do from now on?(get back in 2 years?)

sorry Jimmy but not chekking up on this before any actions are dumb...

Im happy you let go of it(i dont care your reasson just that you do so),now go out and make some cool video which your good at

If I recall correctly from the beginnings of this discussion, she does not own gear, and does not know how to pack it. With that in mind, I think the risk that she'll go chuck herself off something alone is fairly low.

 

Credit given where due. I'm glad Jimmy went and sought out professional advice. Smart move.

Jimmy,

Now that some rationality has descended on the discussion I need to inform on myself. In 1983, right around the time AFF started, we took a 15 year old girl on a first skydive. I gave her the FJC and went main side and her father was reserve side. It all went perfect, or in your parlance, she stuck it. However, over the years that followed I regretted being involved with that at all. On the most basic level we have been trying to save you the grief and guilty conscious that comes later. In ten or fifteen years you aren't going to think like you do now. You may not believe that, but it's inevitable.

On the other hand you a still a dirty stinking site burner as those towers have been jumped since before you ever saw a parachute and you are really fucking up by selling commercial videos that include them . . .

The striking difference between you and others is most build on, and even celebrate the past, while it seems you ignore it, or worse, belittle and tear it down. The last argument you and I had concerned the fact your website called old-timer's "reckless" and presented yourself as some kind of new breed of BASE jumper. You’re the poster boy for the guy who doesn't get the fact the boat filled with BASE pioneers has sailed and you missed it.

I especially take exception to your stand the Fatality List holds no value for your student. What could be the harm in making her read it? Sure, she won’t understand it all, but even wuffos who read it get the point that BASE jumping is very dangerous. This can do nothing but better equip her to make future decisions.

From everything you've written here its clear you are the last person in the world who should be teaching anybody to BASE jump. I'll echo an up-board sentiment that you continue to document the sport, but I'll add my hope that you think about giving something back to a community that did nothing except make it possible for you to BASE jump in the first place.

Right now, you are doing nothing but spitting in the soup we all have to sip . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Long time BASE instructor Johnny Utah began teaching weeklong BASE first jump courses at the Perrine Bridge many years ago. He was the first to do so. BASE Camp he called it and has been doing them every year since. He was innovative in his approach to teaching and his FJC was very unique for a long time. I have gone to some of his BASE Camps and it is wonderful to watch how he works with his students. You should ask him what his goal for every BASE Camp is. There is still nothing else quite like it. Other BASE jumpers have since moved to Twin Falls and began first jump courses that have started to mimic BASE Camp. That in itself is a testament to the way Johnny has taught for years.

I recommend contacting him if you are interested to know more. You can get in touch with him through his website. http://www.johnnyutah.com


As Johnny would say, It Is What It Is !

M

Tom, I respect you (and others) for training novices. this is because I feel you are "risking others health and safety" every time. the sport is far better for it.

this sport was built by dreamers who pushed limits. sometimes inside, sometimes in equipment, and some failed. many say every BASE jump is STILL a test jump.

but face it, every new training method IS a bit of an experiment. sure, a good instructor will be ever vigilant to ensure the message gets through...

the key when experimenting is to take BABY steps. mixing a new, unproven method with a 16 year old is just plain bad juju.

oh, and I love your "letter" idea. morbid, gruesome, but effective.

I'm pretty sure that Dennis McGlynn was the first BASE instructor to use a "camp" format, and the first to use the word "camp" to describe his "cliff camps" held in the early 90's.

I agree that this is an excellent format, because it gives:

a) More time to absorb information
b) More chances to ask questions
c) More time with the instructor available
d) A chance for students to build positive relationships with each other

Hey Nick,
I was one of the first people Frank Gambali took to this paticular tower after he found it in '96 or '97. He took me out there in broad daylight and said "watch this. And get a good shot." He didn't tell me that he was planning on doing a floater. When he landed, I asked him how it was possible to do a floater off a 480' free standing tower. He was like, "you should feel the wind up there. cool huh? now let me see your shot."

Boy, I miss the Gambler, talk about devil may care.

>>Frank Gambali took to this paticular tower after he found it in '96 or '97.<<

No, I'm talking about "Cadillac" and you know it . . .

NickD
BASE 194

What is your point?
I know about Dennis McGlynn and his cliff camp in the mid 90’s at Lake Powell and also how it was short lived because of tragedy.


Johnny was the first BASE instructor to teach weeklong first jump courses at the Perrine Bridge and remained the only one for years until others like yourself began to mimic his BASE Camp. You started your free FJC as a weekend course and then started to mimic the format that Johnny had been using for years. I would think you would be grateful that he has demonstrated so well a superior format of teaching BASE jumping.

It Is What It Is


M

I'm sorry. I had thought that I was pretty clear.

The point I was trying to make was that the first person to teach with a weeklong camp format was Dennis. You had stated that it was Johnny, which is factually inaccurate. I was just trying to correct that inaccuracy.

Amen to that - if JimmyH were a "world renowned moutnaineer" he would be shunned by all of his peers. It is well known in that sport that respect is NUMBER ONE on the list, quite similarly to base. No respect is bad karma.

Not that I would ever want to get involved in this thread, but Marcia's exact words were "Johnny Utah began teaching weeklong BASE first jump courses at the Perrine Bridge." It is factually correct - at least the way I read it.

Ah, I see. I think it may be a bit ambiguous as written. It does say "at the bridge", but then, as a separate sentence says "he was first." I was reading the "he was first" bit as applying to the entire concept of holding week long camps, because that was what I understood as the topic of the overall post. In other words, I read the post as being about a teaching methodology, rather than a location, and I read the separate sentence about being the first to use that methodology as applying to the entire post.

Apologies for my confusion.

Marcia,

All BASE instruction, since the very beginning when we passed it from jumper to jumper in the 80s, has been incremental, so that's nothing new. All training from the beginning has been stressed as continual, and nobody with a clue doesn't get that.

In Tom's defense a look at your profile reveals an understandable motive for you preference to Johnny's way of doing things, and that's fine. But, you are picking on the wrong guy and not really saying why.

If anything Tom's decision to give BASE knowledge away in a responsible manner, continues the way it has always be done. Maybe we can have this talk again in 20 years when in the end people who sold BASE information for money are going to be seen like the people in the old west who sold whiskey to the Indians . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I was not addressing Tom. I was replying to wwarped. Tom replied to me making inaccurate statements that seemed to be geared to discrediting Johnny and his contributions. I would think Tom would be grateful that Johnny has demonstrated so well a superior format of teaching BASE jumping.

Edit to add this: Since you seem bias Nick, do you have any idea how many people Johnny has taught for free? More than Tom, and Johnny continues to do so to some extent, but out of the spotlight.

M

I wish the Indians would have sold some peyote to the old west people instead

I do applaud Tom for the effort and professionalism he puts in his classes. I applaud him even more because he does not charge a penny.

Nick,
are you talking about the big A. that went up after the red and white striped one? Cuz I know of some super sick footage of the red and white one that Carl Boenish shot back in the day, and when I say day...

>>are you talking about the big A. that went up after the red and white striped one? Cuz I know of some super sick footage of the red and white one that Carl Boenish shot back in the day, and when I say day... <<

I'm reluctant to even mention Carl Boenish and you in the same sentence . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Why? Because he was a super sick, hard core, camera man who jumped tons of shit in broad daylight and captured much of it on film?

Or because I'm an ass hole and he wasn't?

Just a little update. We don't call it "cadillac" anymore. We call it the Big Dog, or the Big A. Just so you know for the next time you're out here. If you ask to go jump "Cadillac" very few people will know what you're talking about and you sound like an old timer.

I mentioned extensive BASE FJCs back in that post and cited Apex & Tom A. as examples.

Johnny U teaches as well. I know some folks who took his class and said he did a great job.

many others have taught courses, and continue to do so. I meant no slight to any of them. I also am not trying to endorse the examples I gave.

instruction can be intensely personal. potential students should seek out not only qualified instruction, but people that speak to them, on their level.

When Carl started to film BASE jumping he was filming something new and unheard of in modern times. It was only after a few years that it became clear it was something to be kept close the vest, not because it was cool, but because it was dangerous.

And if you think I sound like an "old timer" well you don’t have that right to call me that so fuck you. Someday we'll run into each other and you can explain it to me in person.

NickD
BASE 194

what gives you the right to call me this:

"a dirty stinking site burner as those towers have been jumped since before you ever saw a parachute and you are really fucking up by selling commercial videos that include them . . ."

uh, can we please try to get it back?

i heart base... every aspect.... you couldnt write this shit...

seriously tho... turn it back a notch.. no need to go choosing teams and telling anyone to fuck themselves...

adressed to noone in particular, but weve got some of the "big names" in base acting like kids...

Hi,
I'm BASE # 75.
What's BASE #460 talking about ?
Thank You,
Gerald Harendza
Night BASE #24

I think he just has the number wrong. He first mentioned the person by name (wasn't you) but that person didn't want it published so it was redacted.

Too late. It is now officially a food fight.

For the record--because we are clearly headed for a thread lock--if we're taking sides on the various issues, I pick Tom and I pick Nick. Not because they're Tom and Nick--although that's reason enough--but because

(a) Tom just got nailed with an off-topic and undeserved brick to the back of the head--again, and

(b) because Nick has earned the right to judge.

This was an interesting discussion while it lasted. I'm sorry that it has gone so far off track.

rl

"Try to guess what I am right now..."

<stuffs Hostess snowball into mouth>

**PFFFFFFTTTTTTT!!!!!**

"I'm a zit!!! Get it?"



This has also officially become the biggest thread yet in the BASE forum. I took a look at the threads by number of posts.

This one is #1, now by a fairly large margin. Three of the top 4 are arguments over, ironically enough, training and ethics. Three are specificially about deathcamping.

Having no skydiving or BASE experience, I just sat back and watched this unfold- but I just have to comment on this whole issue. Now, understand, that even though I have never jumped, I do understand that this sport is very risky (and you can do everything right, and still get hurt, or killed).
As I read through this topic, an image popped into my head- 2 years ago, I was in Las Vegas watching the US Open (of Supercross- for those of you who dont know, that's dirtbike racing). The first round of racers, was the kids class. Thats right, little 4, 5, and 6 year olds on dirtbikes. Now racing around a track may not be that big a deal, but this one little 5 year old kid goes off and jumps a 30 foot double. He's about 15 feet in the air. Now, doing everything right, this kid could still have wiped out, broken his back, or maybe snapped his neck and died. To me that seems pretty risky for a 5 year old. But I dont see any parents getting childrens services called on them. These parents knowingly endanger their children, but it's ok in their eyes.
Now, I'm not saying that dirtbike racing is just as dangerous as BASE jumping, but it is definitley not a safe sport to be in.
No one here knows this girl Clair. (Except for her 2 or 3 posts, which may not have even been her). She could be an extremely mature, well rounded, inteligent girl who has looked into BASE jumping, has assesed the risks, and wants to pursue it. Or she could be a naive, not so inteligent 16 year old trying to impress god knows who.
We can sit around all day long, and argue that it's unethical and careless for Jimmy to take this girl BASE jumping- but it's really hers, and her parents decision. Maybe both her parents have researched BASE jumping, and know that their daughter really wants to do this, so they figure they'll support her. Maybe her parents are stoned off their rockers and have no clue.
As if my 2 cents actually matters.......

And, on the flipside, a 16-year-old is definitely more mature than a 5-year-old. The 16-year-old owns his or her decisions about as much as anybody does, while the 5-year-old likely wouldn't have given dirtbikes a second thought if Mom and Dad didn't like 'em. I expect, too, that your average 16-year-old has a better understanding of the risks of falling hundreds of feet without a functional parachute than your average 5-year-old has of the risks inherent in supercross.

As my first witnesses, I call the dozens of little snots who have flown by me on the ski hill -- like I was standing still -- when I figured I had some good speed going.

I think we've addressed this to some extent. It's the difference between being taught to swim and being tossed in to sink or swim. No one puts a kid on skis and sends him down the expert slope. No one puts a kid on a dirt bike and sends her around the track. For that matter, no one puts a kid on a bicycle and sends him out on a four lane highway.

Furthermore, statistically speaking, none of these activities are as dangerous as BASE or skydiving.

If we're going to make analogies, they have to be analogous.

rl

Perhaps you are correct r.e internet yelling. I can be a real arse (ass) sometimes when I get on my soapbox.

But a total lack of respect for someone else's life is not human behaviour. Remember, the Americans are trying to catch those type of people in all parts of the world.

<<<<<<<if experimentation is unacceptable, does that mean you don't respect Carl, Mike Pelkey, or the others? >>>>>

I referred to Jimny's particular experiment.

I was fortunate to witness and be actively involved in much experimentation in this sport with people at the highest levels (DW, RS, RP, etc). One thing all these great people had in common is that they had a multifaceted and sequential skill development program that led them to the top. And the big factor, they experimented themselves, on themselves. NOT on some minor who has a passionate zest for life but no clear understanding of the consequences of her actions. Therein lies the problem with Jimmy. I have not seen anything that clearly shows that he is contributing to the sport in a positive way.

BTW - I have said that I am not personally against Clair and her jumping because I do not know her particular situation and characteristics. I am also not against children jumping. But it has to be in an extremely well controlled manner with a number of criteria satisfied. The words Jimmy has chosen (which may not necessarily reflect the actions) do not give me any comfort that he is doing the right thing.

And bottom line, when any person (including myself ) makes brash/outlandish/controversial comments, there WILL be criticism from others. That is the nature of this beast that we call human.

I think dirt bikes can be just as dangerous as BASE. Our area of the world producers a huge number of world class riders. In fact, the current AMA champion (MM) is from here (also an in-law of mine). The highest paid motorcross rider in the USA is also from down under. There have been many accidents/injuries/deaths in that sport/activity over the years.

Let me tell you about 4 years olds on motorbikes. They spend years learning to crawl and walk. Then they spend ages on 3 wheelers, then two wheelers with training wheels, then two wheelers, then mtorbikes. All along, there parents and/or coaches are guiding them.

This is a little different to saying, here's a bike and a gnarly motorcross track kid, go for it.


You are absolutely correct, it is her decision in the end. BUT WHY TEMPT HER??????? If someone offers a kid sex or drugs, do you think we could share the responsibility around a little? Or should we do something about the person who offers??? Yes, we already do. Laws have been made accordingly.

BTW - its good to see that Jimmy is open enough to listen r.e. legal repercussion and has changed his stance a little. This shows that he does have an open mind. We just need to work on filling it with the correct information. Then he would be an awesome guy who showed his human side in the past and made one silly mistake. That would be a happy ending.

The details Jimmy that's what you are missing and that's probably why so many are pissed at ya. You know the subtle little things that for most people go unnoticed but they are the very same strange attractors that make some of us click with each other. Like naming a site "Cadillac" for instance, absolutely fucking brilliant, and now you guys call it what? Big fucking dog? A retarded 4 year old could have come up with a better name!

You are absolutley right- it is her, and her parents decision. But why tempt her you ask??? Why force a 4 or 5 year old child to get on a dirtbike and jump a 30 foot gap???? That child really hasnt made a choice to go do it- their parents have made the choice that this is what they want their kids doing. (Personally I can't wait to get my son a 50cc dirtbike- he's only 22 months old). I never said that these kids didnt get training- I know they dont just get thrown on a track. On the other side- what is the best course to train a BASE jumper? Right now the consensus is that you need 200 skydiving jumps (I'm pretty sure thats the number I remember seeing). But maybe giving someone a really good ground school and then having them jump off a relativley easy (in BASE terms) object might not be a bad idea. I know I have no experience. I'm sure people out there think that letting a students first skydive be an AFF jump is crazy- they've never jumped before, they only have the instructors holding them, and they have to fly the canopy by themselves (w/ radio help). Hey, they've never flown a canopy before right? Pretty dangerous wouldnt you say? I'm sure that's why the AFP program was put into affect- get the student to do 3 tandems, they get to help fly the canopy and learn- but there are still students out there that don't make a tandem- they jump right into AFF.
And for the record- the law may exist- but the only reason Jimmy would be held responsible (if something happened to Clair) would be because its "BASE Jumping." It's just considered too extreme by "whuffos." Any kid who breaks his back skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, dirtbike racing, etc....thier parents arent going to jail for putting their kids lives at risk. But you throw that same kid of a BASE object and they get hurt- gaurantee the law gets involved and people are going to jail.

Do you really think that the parents are putting their kids on these 30 foot jumps without any prior training? Don't you think they have been learning all along and working up to that point? This is putting a 16 year old girl off of an ANTENNA. Not a BRIDGE or something more forgiving. In skydiving, our instructors don't just push us out of the plane and say "GOOD LUCK!" don't forget to use your 'seatbelts'! This is an entirely different situation, and until you find yourself faced with the risks BASE jumping WILL throw at you, you have no idea how to relate.

Been faced with some of them, and still don't think risk to oneself and extent of preparation are the sorts of things that make an act ethical or not. I also understand that ethics is one of those things that's just different for different people. So.... <shrug>

Ok one more time- I know that these kids are trained to ride dirtbikes. But what one parent considers enough training to make thier kid jump a 30 foot gap, might not be enough training for another parent. It's all about comfort level. And everyone has to understand, that thier comfort level is not everyone elses.
For example, when my buddy and I got our motorcycle license (we both took the same rider education class)- his comfort level was riding around the back streets by his house for a week. My comfort level was to go riding- on a highway in traffic. Figured the best way to learn was to go do it. Niether one of us is right- we just had different comfort levels.And before everyone jumps all over this- I am not saying motorcylce riding is as dangerous as BASE jumping! I am just making a comparison about training and comfort levels.
Maybe jumping off a span for your first BASE jump is what your comfort level dictates- apparently jumping off an antennae was within this girls comfort level. I understand that an A is more dangerous than an S. Doesn't make you or her right. Personally (if I was within weight limits) and I could find someone to take me, I would probably jump off a bridge. I feel that would be in my comfort level. An antennae, building, or wall would be well out of my comfort level (at least until I got more training).
And please dont tell me that I can't relate to the dangers of BASE- I may never have jumped (Skydiving or BASE) but I know how to handle myself in crisis situations. I'm not saying that I would be able to handle every bad situation that BASE could throw my way (and apparently, neither can expert BASE jumpers- after reading the BASE fatality list) but within the knowledge of myself and how I handle bad, even life threatening situations, I believe that I would be able to react accordingly to try and save my ass.
Ya know, I said I was gonna stay out of Speakers Corner because you can't effectivley argue a point in a chat forum- and damnit, here I am trying to argue a point...this sucks

Ok one more time- I know that these kids are trained to ride dirtbikes. But what one parent considers enough training to make thier kid jump a 30 foot gap, might not be enough training for another parent. It's all about comfort level. And everyone has to understand, that thier comfort level is not everyone elses.
For example, when my buddy and I got our motorcycle license (we both took the same rider education class)- his comfort level was riding around the back streets by his house for a week. My comfort level was to go riding- on a highway in traffic. Figured the best way to learn was to go do it. Niether one of us is right- we just had different comfort levels.And before everyone jumps all over this- I am not saying motorcylce riding is as dangerous as BASE jumping! I am just making a comparison about training and comfort levels.
Maybe jumping off a span for your first BASE jump is what your comfort level dictates- apparently jumping off an antennae was within this girls comfort level. I understand that an A is more dangerous than an S. Doesn't make you or her right. Personally (if I was within weight limits) and I could find someone to take me, I would probably jump off a bridge. I feel that would be in my comfort level. An antennae, building, or wall would be well out of my comfort level (at least until I got more training).
And please dont tell me that I can't relate to the dangers of BASE- I may never have jumped (Skydiving or BASE) but I know how to handle myself in crisis situations. I'm not saying that I would be able to handle every bad situation that BASE could throw my way (and apparently, neither can expert BASE jumpers- after reading the BASE fatality list) but within the knowledge of myself and how I handle bad, even life threatening situations, I believe that I would be able to react accordingly to try and save my ass.
Ya know, I said I was gonna stay out of Speakers Corner because you can't effectivley argue a point in a chat forum- and damnit, here I am trying to argue a point...this sucks

Your child isn't old enough for you to know that you don't make a kid jump a 30 foot gap.

For example, if you offer a child a choice between something s/he really does not want to do and a beating, the child will take the beating.

It is possible for parents to lead their kids into areas where they would not go on their own, and even to obtain excellence from those kids in whatever it is they've been led to, but a child who doesn't want to partake, won't.

I speak as the mother of a now 21-year old girl-child who never gave me any choice but to read all the books I could find about child development and psychology.

rl

Thanks for trying to tell me what I do or don't know about parenting. Personally I take offense to what you are trying to say- you don't know me or how much I know about parenting my own child. My parents had the same disrespect to question my parenting ability- we don't really talk much anymore. So let's leave out what I or you know about parenting.
I've seen many parents force their children to do things they dont want to. I doubt many 4 or 5 year old kids want to jump dirtbikes. It was an idea instilled in their mind by their parents. Not a thought or want created by the child.
The poiont was- a 4 or 5 year old is being pushed into a sport that thier parents want them to be in. A 16 year old girl choosing to BASE jump on her own, is another story. But again, we dont know what is going through Clairs mind- as I said before, she could be well educated, well- rounded 16 year old, making to her, what is a comfortable and educted decision. Or she could be an immature, not so bright 16 year old trying to impress someone.
None of us here knows whats going on in her head. Do I think every 16 year old kid should be allowed to BASE jump? Hell no- becuase most of them are too immature to understand what they are getting themselves into. But are there 16 year olds who have common sense, intelligence, and maturity that could be trusted to make the decision to BASE jump? I believe that there are.
It's all a matter of perspective. In my view, if Clair and her family are well educted about the dangers of BASE jumping, and they have made an educated decision to let Clair do it, then so be it. That is thier decision to make. Apparently, there are alot of people that think she, and her family are making a very bad decision. That is your perspective on the situation. Again- doesn't make any of us right. It makes us who we are.
For the comparison again- I think buying a 50cc dirtbike for my kid (at whatever age I deem him competant enough to ride- could be 4, could be 5, maybe not until he's 11) a good decision for my family. I'm sure there are a ton of parents out there that think I am absolutley nuts, and I should have childrens services called becuase I want to put my kid on a dangerous dirtbike. It's all about perspective. Mine, yours, everyone elses- they are all different- but nobody is right.

emails:

(from Clair)

I am not mad in any way shape or form. you started me
on my way to accomplishing my dream.

is there any way that i can help you research this?

Could I possibly talk to more lawyers and find out if
there is any thing all of us could sign saying that
you are not to blame if i did get hurt.

did you only talk to one person about this?

I know how one lawyer can make it sound like you might
spend the rest of your life in jail, but i would like
to get a couple more opinions on this subject if that
is ok with you.

i will get back to you with what i find out. this
means the world to me and will do everything in my
power to straiten all this out.

clair

--- jimmy halliday <jimmy_halliday@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hey Clair,
> I did talk to a lawyer and it is with much regret
> that I have to stop teaching you to BASE jump until
> you are 18. That's just a year and a couple months.
> In the meantime, you should come out to the
> dropzone and learn to skydive. You're gonna be a
> good BASE jumper, and you'll be doing this your
> whole life.
>
> Just remember that I said from
> the beginning that I wanted to do this partly for
> publicity and that at any time I might decide to
> quit the instruction. You stuck your jump and I
> would have continued but I don't want to end up in
> court against the state of California.
>
> .
>
> later,
> jimmy


If her's is the next generation of lawmakers, I'd say that someday Clair and her friends will legally jump the park.

Let me rephrase it then:

You don't know what you're talking about.

I was trying to be kind about what is a factually ignorant statement that you've made more than once.

Your reaction--and your explanation therefor--indicates you have an issue that has nothing to do with me or the topic of this thread.

As for the rest of your post, I find it unworthy of comment.

rl

this really covers 2 areas.

first, whose idea really was it?
it's extremely doubtful it was the childs.

second, does the child wish to do it?
I'm with RL here. I doubt you could FORCE them into it. GUILT might work, but not indefinately. the child that's jumping the big gaps must want to do it.


assuming your child has never ridden a bike...
would you buy the dirtbike, talk to him, explain safety, maybe show him a video, then take him to that 30 foot gap and say "have at it?"

I really would expect you to do the tricycle, bicycle with training wheels, bicycle, motorbike progression.

the BASE community has lost many friends and thus struggled to find ways to prevent additional tragedies. we need a way to teach people how to handle their parachute and what to do when things get ugly. this, in a sport where the whole jump to landing lasts maybe 20 sec.

we have not found a comparable tricycle, bicycle with training wheels, bicycle, motorbike progression. it's either the whole enchilada or none.

believe me, we WANT a better method. (actually, I'd consider taking it!)

most BASE jumpers are extremely indiviualistic, hating to be limited by "authorities."

please don't continue venting on the small community you would like to join. a dose of humility tends to get much better results.

hope that helps your perspective!

Jimmy, if you had just said and recommended this at the outset I doubt many people here would have had a problem with it.

I know I wouldn't have.

I have two teenage daughters. Each is an exceptional athlete for their age and gender. As a parent, I feel full responsibility in everything they experience. Until they are 18, I have no right to ever give permission to anyone to teach them about an illegal sport.

All teenagers are vulnerable. They will follow the path of any idiot if it allows them to experience something that makes them feel good - especially if their parents don't object. I face the reality that my girls may drink and partake in drugs, they may have underage sex. But what if I give permission for them to experience these "illegal" activities? Do you think you would be doing them a favor by teaching them how to party responsibly? How about showing them how to have safe sex? It's always f**ckin' AMAZED me when someone that is without children has an opinion of how someone with should be raising them. By stepping past the parental line, you have (w/ permission) interfered.

I do understand the eager feeling to teach a young, knowledgeable girl how to perform well in an intense sport that involves mostly adults. There is definitely a feeling of pride on accomplishment. The mixture of underage and illegal? That is a job solely for her parents. By the way, it would be nice to hear from her parents directly on all this. I may be mistaken, but I didn't read anything on Dad's stance.

You have placed Clair in an arena. In this arena, she has been convinced that it's all going to be OK with your help. Sounds like "control", which is the very thing you spoke against early on. This kind of control reeks of manipulation.

If either of my daughters died today in a climbing accident, it would be sickening. Seeing the reaction from the rest of the family and her friends would be even more agonizing. It's the old analogy of throwing a pebble in the pond. Your actions affect many.

You have had enough time to teach Clair an introduction to the sport - right? Take the time to talk to the families of our dead comrades. You stated that you jumped with Franky. Go ahead and give Rikki a call and ask her how it felt to loose a son at such a young age. Yea, I know, his situation was different but he's still dead due to circumstances surrounding the sport. He still has a mom that will wonder what he could have accomplished to this point.

I challenge you Jimmy. Start interviewing the parents and immediate families of dead BASE jumpers. In fact Jimmy, maybe you could compile a video to show future students. If they can't handle that reality, they don't belong. How about it Mr Halliday?

[Side-bar]


There are a growing number of "legal" places to BASE jump

[end Side-bar]

I do agree that the individual's parent should not be allowing this to happen.

My apologies - illegal in most area's of the United States of America, but legal sites more than likely won't continue if enough 16 year olds start participating.

BASE jumping is not a Crime, though tresspassing is illegal...



Agreed

Totally disagreed, or drugs would be legal, drinking and driving would be legal--there's a laundry list if the sole criterion is "enough people are doing it."

There was a time when children were not protected. And from a very early age, they were given hands-on education in those things they were not protected from. For better or worse, those days are gone.

Kids are actually pretty smart and capable. But they are not capable of understanding consequences simply because they are kids. I see a lot of putative adults posting on these forums who don't truly comprehend that parachuting can kill them. If they don't, why would you expect such comprehension of a child?

It doesn't matter whether BASE is legal or not. Until the fatality rate comes down a whole lot, it's not going to become an acceptable pastime for children.

rl

it seems strange for the grammar policewoman to end a sentence with a preposition.


a couple of months ago, a medical story got some press coverage. some folks who study the brain determined that the risk assessment part does NOT full mature until the early 20's.

the news spun it as a possible justification to raise the driving age. (a Vietnam vet at work pointed out that's why the military prefers YOUNG recruits.)

the research suggests we need to use care when training young adults without feeling guilty about "picking" on them.

You have me for someone else mistaken.

I was never the "grammar policewoman." I was $kin's spellchecker. I believe he referred to me as "some busybody in Florida."

Congratulations on being post #250. Think we'll make 300?

rl

Please google ad hominem to gain a better understanding of "personal attack."


Ya think?

I think you're wrong.


Once again, you are wrong. But you keep saying it, over and over again.

When I was very small, an adult thought it was okay to use me sexually. But it's all about perspective. He had one. I had one. But neither of us was right. Right?

When I was seven months pregnant, someone bounced me around the kitchen, dragged me up the driveway, and pounded my head into a wall. But it's all about perspective. He had one. I had one. But neither of us was right. Right?

When I was...

Fuck it.

I find moral relativism sickening. The day that someone hurts your kid--and believe me, someone will, because all of us were hurt one way or another as children--you come back and tell me about how it's all perspective and no one is right. I'll be waiting.

Finally, I find your wholesale attack against this forum unwarranted and unconscionable. I'm the one with whom you seem to have a quarrel, and no one said anything about your having jumped or not--except your mystery supporter in a PM--most especially not me. My post had nothing to do with your ignorance of jumping, but was wholly aimed at your ignorance of child psychology. Take note: I never said anything about your parenting skills. You're the one who brought up that fact that your own parents criticize yours.

But under your theory of reality, it's no big deal anyway.

Because no one's right...

rl

Let me try one last time. Skolls:


Possibly...but not likely. To even consider this (IMHO), the 16 year old would more than likely have had to have grown up at the DZ with skydiving (even better if base jumping) parents, parents that actually understanding the risks of base, the child actually understanding the risks from being around even skydiving (which will usually bring in a tad of base knowledge - fatalities, etc)...wouldn't hurt to have some high platform diving swim team time...practiced the hell out of his / her canopy skills multiple times from altitude, and know how to become their own rigger and take that kind of responsibility into his / hers own hands. Now...find me a 16 year old child with those credentials (or even most) and I might think you have a point, nor do I think people on this board would reject so whole-heartily.

Regardless of what this girl had in her mind, whether to impress others or to go after her own dream...is irrelevant to this ordeal (ALL IN MY OPINION). I remember reading somewhere in here that she SHOULD read the fatality database (not that she HAD). She has never been under a canopy until just recently (which probably wasn't long at all)...and I'm assuming since Jimmy never answered me to whether her parents were skydivers or base jumpers, that they aren't, and are not grasping at the time exactly what it is their daughter is doing. Not to mention going off a tower with no previous canopy time. She has no insight into the exact world she is bringing herself into, nor do her parents. That is what could back fire in the long run on Jimmy, IF (not saying something would) something should happen to Claire under his mentorship.


Dont be so quick to judge.

Amanda



*Edited for spelling

Let me begin by saying, that I am sorry for what happened to you in the past. It's very sad that you had to go through that.
But my attack on this forum?? Whoa- I didn't attack anyone. I just read through all my posts, and I know I didn't attack anyone. I tried to make a point that very few people understood- Most parents would consider putting a 4 year old on a dirtbike a very dangerous and careless thing to do. But to some parents, it's not a big deal. Apparently, alot of people think it's a big deal to let a 16 year old BASE jump. Given the right circumstances, I dont see it as that big a deal, as do some other people here. I just happened to be the one to come out and say it. Sorry that my mystery supporter didn't feel like getting slammed in the forums.
And as far as a quarrel with you??? In my last post I said that I didnt know you, and I had nothing against you- just a differing opinion. You on the other hand, tell me I dont know what I am talking about, and that I am ignorant. See, now I would take that as a personal attack- I guess my perspective on that is different than yours.
I still dont have anything against you. You have your opinion, I have mine. My opinion is right for me, and your's is right for you. Let's leave it at that.

You would be correct in your initial assessment. BASE jumpers are, by a LARGE margin, some of the most down-to-earth, non-condescending people you will find. It's one of the things that attracted me to this sport.

That said, it is easy to understand how a person new to the sport and culture might view it otherwise. But the reason is twofold:

1. The nature of an internet forum is such that it lends itself to a little more "spirited" debate than you would find on a person-to-person level.
2. BASE jumpers are a self-regulating group. We are very independent and don't want the government dictating how we do things. So we deal with things internally.

Grundleson had a similar experience and secondary assessment. He caught a lot of flak of the forums when he started a little earlier than most folks thought was wise. However, he stepped back a bit, took it a little easier, got the necessary prerequisite experience, and is becoming a solid jumper in his own right.

BASE jumpers are very passionate about the sport and their brothers and sisters within it. The problem with people new to the sport is that all they've seen is the glamorous side. All the super-cool-neato jumps that people are making that look like a hell of a lot of fun. And they are.

What they haven't seen, unlike many of the folks who have been in this sport for a while, is the dark side. The human body is very fragile. This sport will show you just how fragile it is.

I've shown several prospective jumpers the dark side, and several have decided not to jump when they saw it.

This is semi-rambling, but the problem is the issue is very nuanced. It ISN'T black and white. What may pass as just dandy in one situation is totally unacceptable in another. It depends on all of the factors involved.

There is a point when gray turns to black. And when that happens BASE jumpers are very vocal about it. And yes, there is disagreement as to where that point is, but if you put the finger on the pulse of the community you can get a sense of where that is.

We are a very opinionated group. We are a very passionate group. If you do something stupid people will tell you (and yes I've been on the receiving end of that ... heh). We aren't exclusionary or elitist though.

If you roll back I don't think you'll see a single post that says "I don't want Clair BASE jumping". My objection all along has been to the methodology which I believe does her, and the rest of the sport, a grave disservice.

Fortunately, other circumstances seem to have now taken her down a road which I think will make her a better, more prepared BASE jumper, in the future.

Zennnie,
very well said. This does lend itself to spirited debate whereas face to face conversations go quite differently. Many of the face to face conversations I've had recently with "big name" Northern Californian jumpers have been extremely positive. If all you had to go by was this forum you'd think they'd end up with my ass getting kicked. Still, this forum is an excellent place to work through these types of debates. I don't know abut the rest of you, but this has been a good conversation about a very relevent issue.

Rhonda, do you remember meeting me on your trip to Lodi a couple of years ago? You are that Rhonda right? I think it's time for you to lie down and be quiet, you don't look so well.

Amanda, about his mythical sixteen year old you just created...Remember the Bill Booth waiver I mentioned? the one that 16 year olds and their parents sign almost every day? "there will not now nor will there ever be a perfect plane, a perfect pilot, a perfect parachute instructor, or for that matter A PERFECT STUDENT." Don't tell me tandems are "safe" Seth Blake was an awesome BASE jumper, who took me on my first BASE jump in '91, and it wasn't BASE jumping that killed him. But I'm pretty close to that kid you just described, except now I'm thirty two. At this point in my career, trust me (haha) I know a "good" student when I see one. Sounds like BASE jumping scared you a little bit and you decided to back off. That's good. You probably made the right call. Make your own decisions but let others make there's. k?

Skolls,
You're lack of base expeience doesn't mean that your analogies have'nt been logically correct. I worked with a philosophy professor back in school and I used to read ethics and value theory, and logic papers for him. Your logic is sound. People have let their emotions write their responses to you. My logic has been sound as well. But I don't or expect others to recognize that. It's just a sign of how much they love this sport, and if that's wrong they shouldn't want to be right. Don't let these people fight with you about what makes a good or loving parent.

That's it

later,
jimmy

Soooooo Mr. Halliday, are you up for the challenge? It was a serious request and I truly would like to know if you're willing?

I remember you quite well, Jimmy.

Bill Booth recorded the waiver video back when tandem passengers were required to be 18 years of age. And most of the people watching that waiver video today are 18 years old, because most dzos are aware of the liability issues. Just because there are some dropzones that allow minors to jump doesn't mean its a good idea from a legal standpoint.

2004 dz.com discussion

RWS letter w/attorney opinion attached

Philosophy was my major field of study, Jimmy. An analogy has to be analogous, and for logic to be sound, it has to be free of fallacies. I saw a lot of fallacies in your arguments--which is why your "logic" is lost on me, and apparently at least a few others--and your ad hominem directed at Amanda is the least of it. As for Skolls...<shrugs> Who cares whether he has jumped or not? Not me. I do care, however, that his argument seems--at its core--no more than justification of a personal decision to put his kid on a dirt bike. I also care that the therapeutic standard of being non-judgmental has made its way into the real world as an ethical philosophy. "No one is right." Sheesh! Edmund Burke is spinning in his grave.

Finally, I subscribe to the writer's theory that "it's all material." The events of my life more than 40, 30, 20 years ago--even some of the events of the last 10 years--are what I pull out for the sake of debate, not what I agonize about in the middle of the night. So I'm feeling quite well, thank you, although I appreciate your concern for my well-being.

rl

Edited to add: Critical Thinking on the Web and, particularly applicable to some of the posts in this thread, Conversational Terrorism

by BASE's injury rate, by BASE's fatality rate, by the loss of BASE's big names, I must conclude we really haven't figured this sport out yet.

if we knew what we were doing and could train initiates accordingly, I would not care about training a 16 year old. the dirtbike comparison becomes very valid.

this sport has instructors doing everything they know how to teach as well as possible. (there are also instructors running "deathcamps." basically just providing stunts to their clients.)

please, please, show us the way to end the carnage. tell us the skills we need and how to develop them safely and reliably.

once we know, this whole thread becomes null and void. we would be just like the dirtbike racers.

The term, more specifically, is circumstantial ad hominem. For example:



The original poster's lack of BASE experience, or the age of his child, has no direct bearing on the truth of his statements. If you want to question what he has said, question what he has said. Attacking only his qualifications is tacky.

Well finally a good anoligy....

As for compairing to dirtbike racing or dirt bike ariels....a bit of a difference... assume that a fall from over 20 ft has a good chance of killing you ...that could include your own house for that matter.... Lets just say 100 ft for instance...you fall you die..... So whats the big deal ....You know skydiving, base jumping, climbing ,cleaning your 3rd story roof....paddeling out to Maverics in a winter swell...if you fall there is a good chance you will die.... thats it...get over it and get on with living your life ...

just my 1 cent as this post is getting a little to away from its start and getting to far into how we should parent....and what sort of ethics are acceptable...

I am a parent and its none of anyones business how and what i teach my children ......i do try to guide them on good decision making and acceptable risks..
They all wakeboard and ...yes people die wakeboarding...they surf...and yes people die surfing..

they do have have socialist countries that can tell you how to run your life and your families.....

I prefer freedom of choice weather good or bad....you cant save everyone.....just live it one day at a time..

Uggg, looks like i got sucked in to this discussion ....

Skolls kept using the word "force" in the context of the activities children participate in. My point was--and continues to be--that with a 22 month old child, he has no personal experience about how a child reacts when a parent tries to force that child to do something the child doesn't want to do. (Although, now that I think of it, most children go through a stage earlier where they won't go to strangers--and sometimes even to one parent--and they scream and struggle if you try to make them.) But having taken the position he did re "force", it is factually demonstrable that he has not researched the issue. If he had an older child whom he had been able to force to do things, then he might have a fact in favor of his argument, but he has neither the personal experience nor has he done the research to back up his argument.

In my post, I put specific emphasis on the word "make" which is missing from your quote. If the meaning wasn't clear, then I'll work on being even more pedantic than I am already, but I think that broadening the application of my remark or responding to it as an attack on parenting skills (as he did) is a little over the top.

I would also like to note that you missed another fallacy because I sat dumbfounded as my assertion that Skolls is ignorant about a subject was converted into the assumption that I was calling him ignorant as a blanket statement. The first can be demonstrated on the facts--and ignorance about a subject is relevant to the discussion of the subject--the second is an attack, plain and simple. I was very careful about what I wrote, and I do not like having my words twisted.

rl

Edited to add: To assert that ignorance about a subject disqualifies one from arguing that subject, is not, as far as I know, a fallacy.

Edited to add: A more precise definition of ad hominem.

Honestly,the only thing about BASE that scared me was how thick it ran through my veins after only 2 jumps. The addiction itself is what has made me step back and get more training before persuing it further. I love the sport. The jumps I made ..nothing went wrong..my mentors said I "nailed it"...dude...I still feel the jumps. I can't explain it. I just need to wait. You're right..my decision. But I have my head on straight and know what base can throw at you...I personally would rather give myself every advantage possible to hopefully make it out alive & in one piece..there's so much to learn. Knowledge never killed anyone..but the lack of surely has.

I was being a bit dramatic describing a good '16 year old base student', but I think you know what I was getting at. One of the main things in my head is that her parents might not know exactly what she was getting into. That's why i had pointed that out to you earlier on in this forum, because I was looking ahead and trying to help keep an eye out for another. *you*

Rhonda why do i always see you in disscusses in BASEforum but not in other treads(or did i miss them?)
To me it seems that you have some strong oppinions which you often tells in a agressive way,or is it my lack of english that screw my sight on this?

Im sorry if thouse thing happened to you as you were younger but posting like you did has no relavance here...

BASE jumping aint illegal,however:traspassing,comitting suiside(in case you die,atleast thats illegal arround here,but never heard any went to jail for that one..),harming the genneral public,disorter ets etc are illegal.. ita all about which eyes you use to look at theese if a BASEjumping is illegal..
Usaly the only law i break is trasspassing,a few times i have might made some disorter as people saw me jump,But never have i harmed anyone,stolen anything or destroyed anything at any objects.

Could you find a law(for a hole cuntry/state) were it says that jumping off anything whith a parachute is illegal..I dont think you´ll find it..

actualy i see alot of adults not even thinking that about skydive....
Also i see alot of people not understand how the equipment works,and dont know how to pack their own main(skydive)or as BASEjumpers want to see a rigger just to get a new pair of risers on the canopy..Now talk about people living in a world were they trust somthing and others..I think thats lack of interest of the equipment thats gonna save us,again meaning not knowing the risk for real..

flame away...

Try the search feature.


I don't know if it's possible for me to judge that, Faber. The old saw goes "every time I open my mouth, I offend someone somewhere." I just say what I think, and I'm prepared to argue my point of view. I'm also prepared to change it the minute I get new data that says I'm wrong, and there is evidence of that all over the internet and usenet, if you know where to look.


As an argument against the idea that "everything is just a matter of perspective" it certainly does have relevance here, Faber. If everything really is only a matter of how an individual sees something, then it is quite all right to do harm to others. If it is not all right to do harm to others, then everything is not just a matter of perspective. If one is going to make an analogy, then it needs to be one that makes the point.

As a therapeutic device, being non-judgmental is a great tool for helping someone work out their issues. I don't think it was ever intended that it should escape into the real world as an ethical principal, but it did, and it's a real hot button with me.


Just as an aside, people who try but fail to suicide are often committed to psychiatric facilities. No jail time, but involuntary committment is no different, practically speaking, than incarceration.


I wasn't looking for it. I think I've got a pretty good idea of the law as it applies to BASE. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that BASE is illegal, per se. It doesn't matter, however, because if someone trespasses on private property for the purpose of putting a minor off a tower, there are many charges that can--and likely will--be preferred against the adult.


I'm not getting what you mean with this comment.


No reason to flame you, Faber, but I'm not sure why you started your post the way you did. Was it to try to get me to react? Where I post and my posting style seem irrelevant to the discussion, but maybe I'm missing something.

rl

P.S. You spelled my name wrong.

which gave me about the same result by a quick scan..
Sorry i spelled your name wrong,sometimes i cant even spell my own name.. hope you see i edited my fault.

i do agree for some matter but i dont see any of the crimes against you were done here.. there fore i cant link it and cant see why you bring it up.. Its some strong lines that does that people might twist their answeres towards you,which i guess you wont apritiate...

which aint a punishment towards them but a help.. becourse they didnt do a crime hurting themself..

in which i agree,if i found out that one of my kids were deathcamped off somthing (knowing that Jimmy first spoke to the parents here),would leave me behind bars for murder...

I think alot of people arround have no idea about what theyre doing(risk meaning) in both skydiving and BASE before they loose a freind or get injuryed badly them self...
I also say that i see people whith lack of knowledge to jump meaning packing a main or do minor "rigging-stuff" means that people interest to the subject does that they dont know all the dangeres..(not saying you know at the point you master this but its a good guide way).

i wanted to tell you that i didnt liked the way you posted your private issues. i think you could have done it in a better way..

the flame away were becourse i know alot of people dont agree whith me on the above oppinions,and as you i just tell them..

PS. going back to edit your name now,sorry

Why? Because it makes you uncomfortable? Would it be better to use a nameless, faceless example?

I write what I know, Faber. As I said, it's the writer's curse: everything I see, everything I do, it's all fodder for the pot. It isn't traumatic for me. If it is for you, then I'm sorry you're upset, but I don't really understand why it would be any more upsetting than what you read in the newspaper on any given day.

All that said, the point is not my experiences, the point is that "perception is NOT reality." The question to ask, always, is this: "Is it a fact?"

People can and do spin everything. If you were to ask the first person I mentioned, he could justify what he did. So could the second. I know this because they tried to justify it to me.

But no one's right, so my position that they were both wrong is just my opinion, and it has no greater weight than their position that they were justified.

Right?

In which case, I take back everything I said. Jimmy should feel free to take Clair back to the tower right now and do anything else he feels like doing, as long as he thinks it's okay. Because all that counts is what he believes. There is no other standard.

rl

P.S. Yes, Faber, I post in the other forums. I also post in other places that have nothing to do with dz.com.

than setting you in a place were it looks like your proud that you had a rugh life? yes indeed,or for others..

I simply saw no reasson for the way you posted,other than you could tell about it..

it also upset me what i read in newspapers,most people does or our laws wouldnt be the way they are...
Does it make it better that it has been said,does that justify?


bull shit

sorry i cant see if you just want to discuss or what your doing but hey,this is twisted.If you think thouse things were ok feel free to think so,it is named as a syndrom somewere(stockholm? i cant rember).It dosent make it right,that people can justify to them self that what theyre doing is ok..

PS.Rhonda, i dont know were your going whith that,but as of here you usaly just join the batles atleast thats what i see,and that justify my point of weiv,Right?

Rhoinda,
Hey how's your daughter? She's not still in jail is she? Or was that actucally prison? I woudn't bring it up as this isn't the place to talk about people's personal lives but it seems that you have no problem talking abot your personal life here, or good parenting skills for that matter. When we were living in that same house in Lodi for those those few days that you were here, I remember your daughter was something you talked about a lot, along with herbal remidies. She was what 16 or 17 at the time you were here? Anyway, someone just told me the news that she ended up in prison over all that stuff. Too bad, I thought she wanted to be a vetenarian. Something about you not letting her go to school as any day you were both going to move to California. Sure hope everything works out all right.

Tom,
lock this thread. It's ran its productive course.

later,
jimmy

Well, Jimmy, I don't know that this has much to do with moral relativism--which was the point of the examples I used--but okay. I did leave Lodi right after it all happened, so you would have no way to know. And I did actually mention her in one of my posts to Skolls; the same post where I pointed out that someone whose child is not yet old enough to be resistant would not know how resistant children can be. I never said anything about parenting skills, because of course, my point had nothing to do with parenting skills at all.

She spent several months in the county jail. She has been out for more than two years, and she's fine. Thank you for asking.

Four threads to rec.skydiving, all started by me, since you're not clear on the details:

December 31, 2002 "Becky" 3 messages

January 13, 2003 "Thank you (was Re: Becky)" 268 messages

January 22, 2003, "Becky-Thanks for mail" 91 messages

January 14, 2003 "Becky loves..." 8 messages

All,

I am teaching this week. That means I'm jumping, or doing jumping related stuff, about 12 or 14 hours every day. This leaves me no time to babysit this thread.

Hence, I am locking it for now.