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Hello everyone. I am just wondering how many times any of you have experienced a hospital stay from base jumping?

I understand a few people like to talk big on the base area but do not let people know the truth about the accidents they have had.

I feel I have the right to ask a potential instructor ( base jumping instructor) If he/she has had an accident and what it was or caused from.

I had a friend contact a referral base instructor. This person stated "they can teach me to base jump", they have over 500 jumps. After the fact I was told by a few trusted skydivers that this
person was unsafe and has had a few serious hospital stays for being reckless. This person denies these facts and stated they have never had an injury.

What do I do?

Would you tell people how you got hurt, what did you do wrong and what you would or will change to be at the top of the
safety envelope?


Tim

Seems to me this is like the always-popular "should I replace my pilot chute" question. At the end of the day, it's your ass on the line. When you're standing at the exit point, the last thing in the world you want is to be wondering if this guy's trustworthy.

Maybe the guys at the dropzone are freaking out over nothing. A lot of skydivers see even very well-executed BASE jumps as reckless. Or maybe they're spot-on. You need to find a place where you KNOW the answer.

If you have to ask, then you really don't have to ask...

Edit: One of these days I'll learn to proofread before I post.

I don't think there are many people with over 500 BASE jumps, so if you PM around a little (don't drop his name here) you should be able to find out more about his reputation.

I personally feel that most people with 500 jumps will probably know what they're doing, regardless of hospital stays. BASE has a very small margin for errors so if they wouldn't know what they were doing, they'd already be dead or paralyzed. Unless, of course, their luck bucket was fully loaded. Either way, other people will know.

Don't forget that you have always your own intelligence too. Even if you could fully trust your mentor, there is no harm in treating everything he says with a healthy dose of skepticism. I've met plenty of "do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" people that, from my perspective, do reckless things. It's within their comfort zone though. As long as I don't imitate them, I can still learn from them.

i would ask him who taught him before you do anything...i would then ask him where he buys his gear then maybe ontact the manufacturer of said gear and see what they say about him...ask him how many objects he has jumped,slider up/down experience...all that jazz....i aint an instructor but i sure as hell would show a potential student any scars/zips/mangled body parts i had just to ram home how bad it can get...at the bottom line i would say if you aint happy then dont do it...also why not speak to Tom A about his course or one of the manufacturers about a course...at least you will be sure of who youre getting...

your potential instructor is flawed and makes mistakes. he is subject to hangovers, fatigue, and lapses in judgement. while he probably has been hurt, these injuries contribute to his knowledge base.

but I still don't know who he/she is...
the above can be said about anyone.

you must trust your gear and yourself. never completely trust your instructor. that is why instructors want you to ask questions and participate in discussion sessions. you need to own the information.

you also might not agree that something is safe that your instructor swears by.

you must find YOUR comfort zone...

and let's face another fact. different people communicate differently. some styles may not work for you. some like a drill sergeant, some like the surferish, "hey dude" guy.

read a few recent posts and you'll also realize BASE jumpers define "injury" different than skydivers. your potential instructor's injuries might be minor by BASE standards, but brutal by skydiving standards.

It might make more sense to ask if your instructor has had the same accident twice. The second question to ask would be if any of your instructor's students have ever been hurt, and more particularly, if the mistake that hurt them is similar to the one that hurt their instructor.

Everyone makes mistakes. The litmus test is whether someone learns from their mistakes.

Me, I'd rather be taught by someone who has been hurt and learned something from it, because that person knows there's no such thing as bullet-proof.

Finally and perhaps most important of all, the best teacher is not always the person who is outstanding in the execution of a particular endeavor. One of the best instructor-types I know--someone who has extensive knowledge, who is very clear in communicating information and who is one of the most safety-conscious people I've ever met--still managed to do some serious damage to a body part a few years ago. All that says to me is that he should probably stay away from low bridges with bad landing areas, not that he isn't qualified to teach.

rl

funny shit is that skydivers dont like BASEjumpers as BASE is a unsafe activity,compared to skydiving.
I dont really care about how trusted skydivers you spoke to,if you get the same statesment from BASEjumpers i would concern..

By the end of the day its not about you trusting some trusted skydivers,but YOU need to trust a BASE jumper,if you dont do,then find another person or dont do it at all...

About getting hurt you cant really say a jumper is safe or not..
how many skydivers do you know that you count as safe but still got injuryed?........

BASE aint a safe sport and thouse who dont get killed or hurt while their BASEcarier are lucky,not only good but also lucky..

hope you realice this before you enter the BASEworld,if not your time hasnt come yet...

sorry my rather defencive post but if you dont trust the guy why then ask others?its not me or others who should learn,but you... its all about making your own choices in this sport.. if they were correct you´ll find out some day...

by the way i broke my fib n tib really good on a perfect condition jump.. by rearrise stall my canopy and get stuck in the dirt in my plf...

only you know...

Thanks everyone who replyed.

Tim

Asking a non-BASE jumping skydiver for advice is like asking a scuba diver about the qualifications of a mountain climber. As for experienced BASE jumpers not revealing past injuries, well the ones I know (including me) hold those episodes as badges of honor. One fellow I know, who had more than his share of BASE injuries, when asked will tell you every injury stemmed from an original mistake. The big sin in this sport is repeating the mistakes of others, or worse, passing on bad instruction that will eventually catch up with someone.

The evolution of BASE has gone through several stages. In the first stage no one knew what they were doing. At that time we are only skydiving from objects. Slowly we learned BASE is a different sport with its own rules. In the mid-1980s to about 1990 we were all pretty much on the same page.

Today, learning to BASE jump is more convoluted and can become an exercise in frustration. In earlier days people who began BASE tended to be not only more experienced parachutists, they were also more self reliant. This is more a knock on us than on you. We have allowed BASE to become too accessible to the masses. It is one thing to become well known in the BASE community, its another to use BASE to become well known in general. The showmen (you know who you are) suck people into the sport without the consequence, or the ability, to look after them.

Sometimes I wonder if I were twenty years old today, if I would start BASE jumping? Knowing what I know now when I see a photo of twenty or thirty people standing on Kjerag, you may say how cool that is, while I think, oh boy, probably half of them shouldn’t be there. I didn't start BASE jumping when I did for any of the more noble reasons like furthering mankind's knowledge and celebrating its spirit, no, I started because of the X factor, I started because it was new and wild and it's neither of those things today.

So my bottom line advice to you is this; you aren't ready. In 1978 I saw fixed object jumping for the first time and knew it was for me. But, I also realized I wasn't ready yet and didn't actually make that first BASE jump until some years later. So in the meantime soak up what knowledge you can and if BASE is really something you want eventually all the tumblers will fall into place and it will happen. The common wisdom throws numbers around like 150 or 250 skydives before BASE, but in this sense "common" is a bad word. BASE used to be a freight train you ran along side of, and then you grabbed on and hung on for dear life. Now it's a passenger train where you sit comfortably and a conductor comes along to punch your ticket.

With the increase in participants and the corresponding rise in injuries and deaths I believe we need to re-think some things. I answered the phone for years at Basic Research and dispensed the current wisdom on when and how to start BASE jumping. I couldn't work there again nowadays as I wouldn't sell a BASE rig to anyone with less than a thousand jumps. I was right then and I'm right now. What happened in the meantime is we failed to address the problems the masses would have entering BASE. We put out the welcome mat, invited them in, but had nothing in the cupboard to feed them . . .

NickD
BASE 194

NickDG,

Which individuals have the right to decide who enters BASE? Someone with 200 BASE jumps might say you need 1,000 skydives before you make a first BASE jump, someone with 500 BASE jumps might say you need 5,000 skydives, someone with 1000+ BASE jumps might say you need 10,000 skydives, … different people have different opinions based on their experience.

If you try to restrict access to BASE too much I think you’ll get more people who find other ways to enter it on their own without any (or little) instruction and perhaps without correct equipment. Which is more dangerous?

The individuals who have the right to decide, apparently,
are those that are asked to instruct.
I have been asked to instruct.
Once, I said yes.
After my "student" made one jump, I retired from instructing.
My opinion, right then based on my experience,
was that nobody should BASE jump.

(My student did fine, not a scratch).


Which is more dangerous for whom?
I am only a danger to myself when I BASE jump.
If your hypothetical untrained and ill equipped novice
goes ahead with jump plans, he is only a danger to himself.
Saving his life will not affect the danger of my next jump.

My advice continues to be, to any who ask, do not take up this sport.

the Q werent if we restrected a student,the Q were that a student wasnt sure about a instructor...

i feel the right to say that i mean people should have atleast 500ram air canopy flights before enter BASEworld,it dosnt mean people will follow that but it means that when my time comes to instruct the person wont have less than 500 ram air jumps...
does that put a student into danger? oh well i cant care less in case he/she burn my local objects,if they dont listen to me anyway why would they then want me as a mentor???

by the end of the day people will go huck them self off if they want to,if they want my help they need to play some of my rules,then atleast i wont feel so bad if somthing happened as if i lacked on my demands...

I think a lot of us hold others to a higher standard than our own. Theres a lot of 'do as I say, not as I did' going on. Who here hasn't jumped something they maybe wasn't ready for in retrospect? how many of us haven't jumped in sketchy winds? It's the voice of experience. Being a baby to BASE myself I've got no doubt that in the future I'll look back on my early days and realise then how little I know now. Be that as it may, people are entering this sport with the same spirit and enthusiasm as the old school once had. To me it still is new and wild. I don't think anyone should be encouraged into BASE but I think sometimes it's more ethical to better educate the people who snuck in through sheer determination rather than make hard and fast rules based on how many times they've jumped out of a plane. I'm not saying it's right, Just how it sometimes is. Ultimately it's a personal decision what you do and who you trust. To me that's the true spirit of BASE.

One more. Tim, one of the most reckless and scary things I have ever done was jump off the bridge at Twin Falls last month (7times). I got to know and trust my instructor with my life very well before the jump. He knew his stuff and he reminded me that he had never lost a student. Take your time. There is no rush. BTW I could not buy complete base gear unless I took the course. The manufacturer would only agree to sell me a canopy to try out at the dropzone. Turns out I tried it out off the bridge for the first time. Also keep in mind that 16 ounce glasses of Moose Drool ale can creep up on you. That fucking bridge is like a magnet in my mind. Go for it. edited with beer

It's not about a higher standard.

It's about those very bad moments when you are reminded that you've outlived all too many of your friends.

But it's also true that each of us has the right to make his own mistakes--even if those mistakes are lethal.

<hears the faint strains of Cat Stevens' "Father and Son" echoing down the years>

Your life, your choice, even if the older and wiser voice says "Wait."

rl

Today, learning to BASE jump is more convoluted and can become an exercise in frustration. In earlier days people who began BASE tended to be not only more experienced parachutists, they were also more self reliant. Sometimes I wonder if I were twenty years old today, if I would start BASE jumping? Knowing what I know now when I see a photo of twenty or thirty people standing on Kjerag, you may say how cool that is, while I think, oh boy, probably half of them shouldn’t be there. I didn't start BASE jumping when I did for any of the more noble reasons like furthering mankind's knowledge and celebrating its spirit, no, I started because of the X factor, I started because it was new and wild and it's neither of those things today. With the increase in participants and the corresponding rise in injuries and deaths I believe we need to re-think some things.

Maybe a simple aid would be to raise the bar for skydive minimums to 500 with 100 crw or accuracy jumps in that 500 (signed off by someone)...surely courses arent that big a part of the manufacturers business that it would financially hurt them to do this?

It would keep a lot of the people waiting long lead times for rigs happier too because the builders could do some building instead of back and forth to potato land?

Surely it would also make people think twice about it if they have a more stringent entry criteria, the cash rich and lazy amongst them (which is quite a lot) would lose interest before they could achieve it.
However the back door entrants (oooooer shouldnt have said that) will always get into the sport but maybe it should be made harder to buy gear...the referral system used to be in place so whats happened to it now...in the not too distant past you would be checked up on if you were trained on the mentor student route in your home country before you could get gear (new or second hand)...that seems to have stopped...

Do i think any of this will stop people getting killed or maimed..not sure but i think i would help..A LOT.

The above is all well and good but it must be said that cah75 hit the nail on the head in a way. Who really has the right to stop anyone from BASE jumping? The reason he's right however may not be the reason you think.

Let's say that next year there's a sudden worldwide epidemic of 100 BASE fatalities and all of a sudden Bridge Day, PotatoVille and every cliff in Europe is shut down. So what? Is that going to stop us? No, because nobody can ever shut down BASE jumping. BASE jumping only requires a person, a parachute, and an object.

However, tomorrow four bomb laden skydiving terrorists could descend somewhere and skydiving is over, done, and finished . . .

So sometimes when I hear people making the argument that certain people are hurting the sport of BASE jumping it doesn't sound exactly right. BASE jumping is the ultimate unscrewable thing. We can't, not matter how much we f-it-up, lose our ability to BASE jump.

So there must be another reason we agonize over educating new jumpers and keep trying to come up with an entry formula that works. And that reason is because we revel in BASE, we talk about it, we show off our videos, we live and breathe it and our zealousness affects the people around us to the point they want to play too. But, we also have to be able to sleep at night.

So, that's what gives us the right to say who jumps and when.

And that's not to say worldwide, not across the board, but each of us can control BASE in our own little spheres of influence. We have that as a mandate, and it’s the only thing this sport demands of us. We haven’t got it exactly right yet, but we are getting better at it . . .

NickD
BASE 194

rember that manufactors # of min. 200jumps is a bare minimum,if they raised this im sure that people would wait longer before enter the sport...

Look at US start whith your AFF in spring and by the end of the year you could have your BASE# sorry but some people rush too fast and might forget to learn instead of wearing cool ff suits at the dz instead of learning canopy skills that will save me from colecting their twisted bodyes somewere..

ego?yes im not a good but i think theres a reasson why people is getting killed and hurt more in this sport today than just 7 years ago...

I think that it has become a must or a cool thing to do rather than somthing the jumper him or her self want to.. then add the progression of BASE..

I were in TF just 1 week ago and a dear freind of mine already were told how to do gainers even as he had under 50 BASE and all of them from that bridge.. I have 250+ i want to do a gainer but im not in a rush.. i dont want to stall out on my back as he did and nearly kill myself(now his scared about that shit).

am i a sh!t? perhaps.. i dont care

I agree with there should be no bar as its not one size fits all. Some people catch on more quickly than others and some people just never get it.

Whatever path you choose, don't settle. You must have a trust level and comfort zone with that instructor. Eventually, YOU will be the person standing on top of XX structure deciding if this does not feel right and it is your ass on the line.

I believe you are incorrect about this.

Plus, there are many non-manufacturer courses now available, where courses are close to 100% of that person's BASE business.

thats why i put a question mark at the end of the sentence...

In my opinion, legal sites contribute greatly to safety (by encouraging and allowing currency and practice of skills). I think that losing them would surely set us back, not in terms of ability to jump, but in terms of reducing the risk of each jump, and building skills of jumpers.

Knowing how to do something, how to teach that subject, and how to teach that subject to a specific person are three different things.

I don't know, Tom. I run hot and cold on legal sites . . .

There are many issues to be addressed, but the most important one is this; we are right now in the midst of a BASE fatality spike that coincides with the leap in BASE participation that began between 1999 and the year 2000. Why?

If it's a simple matter of more BASE jumps equals more deaths, we are doomed. Or, is it more a product of our own actions over the last 15 years? By this I mean the mainstream advertising by BASE gear manufactures the availability of BASE first jump courses, the BASE competitions, and the airing of BASE videos once held very close to the vest. (BTW, I'm guilty as anyone of all those things).

We are, in a way, sending the message to the uninitiated that BASE is an "everyman's" sport. Even as we know in our hearts it isn't and never will be. I'm trying to be careful here and weigh whether I'm an old fart lamenting past glory days, or someone capable of comparing then and now because I've been to both places in time.

Regardless of what caused the upsurge in BASE participation (and I think it had a lot to do with Madison Avenue getting kids to buy into the whole "extreme" thing) we are handing out BASE like candy to children when it used to be the kids had to search out the candy for themselves. Those not resourceful enough, not self reliant enough, or not wanting it bad enough, were excluded right off the bat.

In terms of progress and safety, I know our biggest leaps in those areas came long before the advent of their being so many legal sites. Bridge Day notwithstanding, tailgates, pin rigs, vents, and so forth were products of an earlier time. Since then we have become more spectacular with aerials, tards, and wing suits, but any safety advances are being cancelled out by people doing too much too fast. Of, course this could be one big growing pain that will pass in time, and I hope it is, but I also think we are paying a terrible price for access.

I think legal sites have their place. I like the way the Go Fast Games are run. This is not a come one, come all event. In a sense it's a reward for those experienced jumpers who've paid their dues. The flip side is a legal bridge were you pay your money, make your jumps, promise to get a mentor once back home, and then get turned loose. Are we fooling ourselves into a believing a "skydiving" type of training program is even applicable to BASE jumping? In skydiving, student status used to be so difficult it weeded out those who couldn't hack the program. This was considered a good thing but it ended when we allowed profit to trump safety. Are we going down that same road?

Then there is the chicken and egg thing. Do we jump so much in PotatoVille because its not so much allowed, but not disallowed? The current PotatoBridge was built around 1973. I remember someone showing me photos of it back in the late 1980s. When I asked that person if they jumped it, the response was no, as it was too exposed. There is no thought of whether it would be legal or not, it was more a matter the secret was not to be exposed. The big sea change in BASE is when we got away from that idea.

Of course, this all makes for interesting discourse, but it's academic in the sense we can never go back to what was. BASE has grown to the point where it has a life of its own. However, we'd be remiss if we don’t figure out a way to take what worked in the past and blend it into what's happening now.

BASE jumping is a priceless thing in my opinion. Now that the cat's totally out of the bag we need to make it harder to participate. Someone always says if we don’t teach they will go out and do it themselves. I find that wrong on many levels. After all you can’t automatically say that's a bad thing. It's the way an entire generation of BASE jumpers learned the sport. Second, I think the number of people willing to go it alone these days is smaller than in BASE's earlier days.

So I have a bold suggestion. (And before you crap your pants, remember this is us jawing over a couple of beers.) Let's stop training 3 or 4 students at a time for free or for a few hundred bucks. If you want to be a true BASE mentor take one person at a time, charge them five thousand dollars, and take them all the way to a BASE number. Get them to the point where you can let go with a clear conscious. Make that commitment to the sport or stop doing it because it's not working . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Do you think the five thousand bucks is important in that equation?

What if you took someone on for free, and worked with them until you felt comfortable that they were reasonably competent to be let go on their own (maybe a hundred or a hundred and fifty jumps, from a good spread of objects)?

What if, instead of cash, what you required from them was a commitment to the learning process, that they would not go out and jump on their own until both student and teacher agreed that the time had come?

Just a thought...

>>Do you think the five thousand bucks is important in that equation?<<

I was trying to get students to match the level of commitment of the mentors . . . anything else no matter the good intentions are just promises . . .

And I think a good mentor deserves to make a good living. (And this is something skydiving and BASE jumping hasn't figured out yet). We need to think outside the box. I remember in the early days of AFF there is an Instructor named Dana Handbury. She was the former wife of Jim Handbury, the fellow who built the first Velcro closed BASE rigs for Carl Boenish.

She didn't work for any drop zone. She engaged AFF students privately and took them all the way through the "A" license. They traveled to different drop zones and she's able to impart knowledge that traditional instructors couldn’t in the confines of the seven levels of AFF. While she charged more for her services she turned out students who had confidence, ability, and real world experience. The way skydiving works now students are separated from their instructors way too early. I think, in BASE, we need to go more the route Dana took.

NickD
BASE 194

This discussion is so worthwhile, it deserves its very own thread.

Also, go back and look at the original title of this thread, he unintentionally got it right.

"What Do Do."

Our innocents are crying out for help . . .

NickD
BASE 194

as Nick said, the money would permit the mentor to make a decent living.

and unless training is moved to a Shaolin monastery, I'm betting many would leave before completing a 150, 100, or even 50 jump cycle. a large cash upfront payment would show committment to the program (or just too much free cash).

basically, it's the Mercedes-Benz vs Hyundai discussion...
high quality, low volumes, and high cost vs low quality, high volumes, and low cost.

and someone in a market based economy always seems willing to cut costs to attain higher volumes.

very well said

Nick i will agree in principle but not about the money... Didnt you say that it was the wallstreet rich kids who you where talking about getting in to easy... These people have money and it is not a problem.. Dont forget that the person without $5000.00 will take his $3000.00 and go to Norway and do his FJC there... What better... the potato bridge of kjreg for the first base jump....

Thats a tough call.....

I think Tom could interject here....

I dont think you are as i have been surrounded by old time base jumpers and it never sucked me in in any way shape or form.... I think that's a more personal choice....


I dont think i am qualified to answer this but i will give you my opinion... and to make it short and sweet...wingsuits.....tracking suits....the passion to fly further...... longest track.....we have upgraded our technoligy from propellers to jet engines... It happed in avaition and it it will happen here....You dont see a big upsurge in Potato bridge fatalities but you do in terminal jumps...


This one i never understood...."come jump off a bridge with no experience" Well i can land my crossfire in a LZ the size of about 10 football fields...so i should have no problem landing a completly unfamilure canopy in a Lz the size of a living room in a "boggie" with no pressure.... thats something .... I saw the carnage video of Bridge day and it was quite the spectical.....

as for training....thats something all experienced jumpers should agree on and impelment... Look at barnstorming skydiving in the days way back. All sport progress and evolve.. You can't say that someone should learn like you had to back in the day. We are suppose to evolve into something better and more knowlegeable so that we dont repete first time mistakes...

Has anyone done a study on fatalities as ...americans, europiens, Austrailians...etc....to see if these are site specific or regional and then compair training methods..??


again, comments thrown in the mix over a few Corona's.....

Attached is my own interpretation of the BASE fatality list classifying each fatality as beginner, experienced or unknown.

In case there was not a year known for the accident, I put it in the same year as the accident before it.

I have interpreted some descriptions to make a classification. For example, number 20; I consider somebody that has done a previous paraglide from Mount Everest as being experienced, even though I'm not sure how many jumps he had. He may have been jumping a Vega 180, but as an adventurer, Jean-Marc certainly knew what he was getting into.

I guess my classification is not necessarily based on jump-numbers (although it plays a large part) but more on attitude and how much a person realizes what the risks are. Probably some of my classification you disagree with.

Given my personal interpretation though, in the stretch of 1999 to 2005, I observe the following:

14 beginners died

21 experienced jumpers died

16 jumpers I couldn't judge

Three of those beginners were of the "bought-a-rig-on-ebay" type, meaning solo suicides without any prior training. A fourth one was offered instruction but refused. In my opinion, these types of accidents will be unavoidable, regardless of what we do.

That leaves 10 beginners that, judging optimistically, got into the sport the average way.

Because there are 16 unknown jumpers, we can't really draw conclusions about this, as it is bigger than the difference between the number of experienced jumpers and beginners.

Nonetheless, I see no jumpers on the list that are cliche Potato jumpers, e.g. the jumpers that do an FJC, do another 40 or so jumps at the bridge, and then turn loose in their local scene without a proper mentor. Am I overlooking anybody?

Anyway, the statistics are too minimal to draw conclusions from. I do however want to offer my own opinions:

BASE gear has become safer over the past 20 years. Nevertheless, the sport is growing faster than that gear is getting safer, meaning that the gear can't keep up with the fall in our lowest-common-denominator jumping mentality. This explains the general incline in the number of incidents.

It's also good to keep in mind that the fatality list doesn't include all those who are permanently disabled or otherwise horrifically injured.

You can pound in, break your femurs, spine, skull, both arms, and collapse a lung or two, rupture your liver... then spend a couple months in intensive care... yet survive...

...and not make the list.

I suspect that if all BASE related injuries were reported and graphed, there would be a large column with "low time jumpers" filling it.

Kinda like drunk driving. About 20,000 people are killed by drunk drivers annually.

At the scene of an accident, if someone in a car is killed, that fact is reported to the ER physicians when we transport other passengers from the same car to the hospital. Why? Because if one person in the car was killed, there is a high index of suspicion that there will be other serious injuries among the remaining vehicle occupants. Usually, if one person is killed, the others in the car will be seriously injured.

The news report may say that only one person was killed, but that is not meant to be interpreted as only one person injured.

A more meaningful statistic may be how many people are seriously injured or killed by drunk drivers annually. I suspect it would be a far greater number.

Just because you didn't die, doesn't mean you got off clean.

Until we can keep track of total accident numbers in BASE (that resulted in a serious injury) anysis of the list will be of little use. There are people out there who have been seriously fucked up BASE jumping. They're no on the list, but their permanent injuries are no less real.

Good observation. And you're right, it voids my analysis.

There seems to be some 'attitude' towards people with money; people who appear lazy. I would suggest that most people with money have it because they have worked for it, and they have a good job to make the money because they have worked for a qualification. People working 50-60 hour weeks might want to spend their hard-earned cash making their leisure time more confortable (eg, skydivers who employ packers). Ignoring the last example, maybe there should be more concern about the 'freeloaders' with no money.

You've started with an erroneous conclusion which invalidates the rest of your argument.


Which has nothing to do with their motivation for jumping.


Packing is an important part of skydiving, and very few people can reasonably justify employing packers. Exceptions in the current skydiving climate include instructors, videographers and teams, but one hopes that they pack for themselves at least some of the time just to stay current. For the rest, it is a matter of throwing money at a problem to make it go away, because these days, a lot of them never bothered to learn to pack.


They have no money because they spent it all on jumps and equipment and beer. And, oh yeah, they kicked in their last few bucks to some guy's femur fund.

In the end, it comes down to someone's underlying motivation, not how many dollars they have. Someone who is truly motivated will come up with the cash, but how does one instill motivation in those who have a lot of money and not much else to recommend them?

There is a segment of the population that works hard all week, makes a ton of cash, and then--bored to death on Saturday and Sunday--invests it in the newest and coolest of leisure activities. In the last few years, USPA tried to market skydiving to the masses, and sure enough, it worked, much to the detriment of the sport.

Is that what you want for BASE?

rl

Nick,i dont agree on the mony issue...
That would only lead to people go trying it out them self,if you then say they would have no BASE gear.. oh well people would then just die in Parafoils and other crap(BASE-crap)they shouldnt use as BASE equipment...

i do however agree that by genneral people should be taught by a mentor..
that said i think thouse 3-4 student classes are great to people outside US were it can be hard to find a mentor before you learned the basic skills...

As Chad said,no one tells about thouse who has been disabled and really smashed up..

but then again how do you define an injury?
I broke my leg and spent 15 days at a hospital, and 8,5 month outside the sport,however i dont see that as a bad injury,it were a broken leg(unlucky on a really bad way),but i see people whith broken spin and other survir injuryes... were to say its an "real"injury..
I think it were DW who once said that it were if you had more than 14 days at a hospital(sorry if i Qoute wrong),which would mean that my broken leg were "real"..

or is a injury only "true"if you nearly died?

or if your some kind of disabled from it?

its an edge...

Hey Tom,

now that you have done several free courses with a number of students, can you elaborate on your experiences with selecting students? What percentage of students are you sending home comfortably? Have you made any changes to your selection procedures after the first few courses?

Is there much discussion among mentors and teachers both of the incognito long term local type and the commercial FJC type? Other sports have forums and structures dedicated to share didactic wisdom among the teachers of the sport.

If one FJC had a student X that did such and so and the course teachers dealt with it in this particular way, how would the others have dealt with it, and how can we avoid it in the future? Such discussions can be very valuable.

Thanks,

Jaap Suter

nick dg wrote

Let's stop training 3 or 4 students at a time for free or for a few hundred bucks. If you want to be a true BASE mentor take one person at a time, charge them five thousand dollars, and take them all the way to a BASE number. Get them to the point where you can let go with a clear conscious. Make that commitment to the sport or stop doing it because it's not working.

and TA responded

Do you think the five thousand bucks is important in that equation?

What if you took someone on for free, and worked with them until you felt comfortable that they were reasonably competent to be let go on their own

What if, instead of cash, what you required from them was a commitment to the learning process, that they would not go out and jump on their own until both student and teacher agreed that the time had come?

Just a thought...

and a good one, from both of you, but not a new one, just one that imposes such a burden on the prospective student that very few people would buy into it, even if it were " free".

back-in-the-day, Moe Viletto blazed just this path for any worthy students that came his way.
He pretty much demanded at least 6 months of that persons life to learn all necessary aspects that he thought necessary.
it started at the DZ of course since very few people bypassed that avenue, ( take a bow richie ), with simple lessons such as spotting, wind direction awareness, landing accuracy, when to step off a load if ground conditions sucked.
and progressed to rigging skills, as in down to the level of building risers and sewing patches.
then you pretty much had to memorize some of dennis pagan's works on microweather and turbulent air theory. memorize and comprehend.

after several months of this you might be ready to go out and help with a site scouting expedition or actually be a part of a ground crew gig.
it couls easilly be 3 - 4 months b4 you made your first jump.

who among us has the time / desire / money to follow this path?
i'd guess very few.
those that do, are special people that have certainly earned their knowledge and have likely forgotten more about parachuting than many of us know.

more power to those that choose this path.

be safe

kleggo

Yes, I was actually thinking of Moe when I wrote about commitment. Moe is, and I mean this in a good way, "anal" about things BASE related. I know he made his first BASE jump in the early 80s, but stopped and didn’t jump again for a couple of years. He told me BASE wasn't there yet, in terms of the gear and technique.

It wasn't until he designed and built his own BASE gear that he started up again. Moe is the first I ever saw use clamps for packing, years before it became common in BASE. He'd even used a chalk line down the center of his loft to ensure straight was indeed straight. We giggled when Moe is unwilling to pack in the field like we all did. He would instead show up with six or seven packed rigs. Usually these rigs are all vacuumed sealed using a system he called a "Rig Saver." Moe is the closest thing to a nylon scientist I've ever met . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Hey RhondaLea

As you've taken the time to consider my statements, I'll take the time to explain myself better. The point I was trying to make is if people have money it is usually because they have worked for it. To get and keep a job requires skills, motivation, and generally hard work. Thus, I contend that someone having money may well be an indication of qualities that would make them a suitable skydiver/BASEr.

I did refute the packing example (see the following sentence) as I recognise that the use of packers is a contentious issue. I like your 'pack sometimes to keep your eye in' approach.

Wilmshurst,

You hand me five large (plus expenses) and I'll get you a BASE number in a week. I can even work something out with Joy Harrison and for an additional fee you can skip upcoming numbers in the sequence in favor of picking your own . . . hell, if you want to pay more for a lower BASE number I'll sell you mine!

Of course, Wilmshurst's post shows the folly of my original comments and illustrates the problems we face in BASE training.

However, I have to say the thought of putting my own BASE number on E-bay just occurred to me. And I must phone up Phil Smith. What do you figure BASE #1 would auction off for . . . ?

NickD
BASE 194

I'm abit of a sucker for achieving things for myself. I wouldn't want a BASE # handed to me without me deserving it. Was thinking about a guide/mentor, not a 'servant'. If you're gonna learn to BASE why not do it in a place with experienced mentors and good objects.

Careful what you say Nick - I might just take you up on that offer. Don't imagine you as the sort of person that would involve me in dangerous shortcuts.

> It's also good to keep in mind that the fatality list doesn't include all those who are permanently disabled or otherwise horrifically injured

I absolutely agree with this statement, Dexter. And I would humbly add the following one.

It's also good to keep in mind that the fatality list doesn't include all those who (according to the malfunction/evolution of the jump/whatever they did) were supposed to be going in (or so) by the gravity of what they were incurring into BUT, because of a huge dose of BIG LUCK they got that day, they got away with it either without any injury of any sort or with very few and minor scratches.

They DID (generically speaking) a big mistake which would have certainly taken the "doers" to certain death but because of huge luck they got away with it uneventfully: this (=the mistake) does NOT mean that same (mistake) is something to be done again, by himself/herself or by others.
You cannot count (only) on LUCK along your BASE career
A friend of ours (Italy BASE #18) few years ago, jumping our subterminal wall in windy conditions (possibly NOT doing a hell of a delay and possibly NOT doing a hell of a track, no offence but just a (=our) guess...), got a 180°, hit the wall, broke several bones, luckily remained stuck on the wall, after 6 h they rescued him in very bad physical conditions, after few years he recovered and couple of years ago he was back to BASE jump.
Few months ago, a low timer (7 or 8 off our terminal wall) taken to jump same subterminal wall by a "REPUTABLE" (to be read ironically) and famous (this is true... sadly true...) Italian BASE jump instructor, got a 180°, got stuck on the wall, was rescued with only few minor scratches.
What is the difference between Italy BASE #18 and this low timer? Apart from near death experience and months of recovering (sorry if I semplify too much...), NONE. There is no difference in terms of things NOT TO BE DONE.
What is the teaching of these 2 accidents (one being a near-death experience)? The teaching that can be drawn by these two accidents is: do not jump Italian subterminal wall:
1) if you are a low timer;
2) if it's windy and/or gusty;
3) if you don't do the right delay;
4) if you don't do the right delay caring to do a good track away from wall/protruding talus.
Walking away after a mistake in a certain BASE jump once (or twice...) doesn't mean that that sort of jump behaviour must be repeated or must be taught to beginners/students. Other 10 people doing same mistake could go in the 10 of them all.
Just my 0.02€.

This is something that also mistifies me as well....I would think that anyone wanting to do gainers, flips or whatever is not flat and stable would go to a pool first. Just because you have 6 or 700 base jumps doesnt mean you can do a flip. Thats like saying the guy who has 6000 belly dives can fly on his head on the first jump. I think it would be wise to work it out in the pool and then when you have it nailed...take it to the bridge and go from there..... Oh yea...i would think it is a "very good idea' to use a old beat container when you are in the pool..... Its one thing to dive...it's another to dive with something strapped to you ...It will restrick you a bit so be carefull...

Tucking and grabbing your ankels will help you from stalling on your back......i saw the diving board jumps from Bridge Day....Most of them scared me just watching...

later , chris

Wilmshurst,

Sorry Mate, I was of course, just pulling your leg . . . if you ever knock on my door here in California seeking help I'm at your complete disposal.

On the subject of keeping track of injuries, near misses, and just plain lucky escapes I do realize the value, but there are problems both historical and practical.

The original intent of the Fatality List is too remember our fallen and illustrate the common mistakes that lead to bad ends. I never considered in the beginning it would grow to reach almost one hundred names. When first published the fatality number is only five or six and the figure "one hundred" represented the total number of hard core BASE jumpers in the entire world.

The historical problem is BASE magazines like "BASELine" and later the "BASE Gazette" did publish non-fatal accident reports and when they did all hell broke loose. Simply put the jumpers in question didn't take kindly to being second guessed by some editor who wasn't there and in some cases these disagreements disintegrated into blows being thrown. It is a hysterically funny and very sad time in BASE jumping.

To avoid those problems and to protect my own nose, when I published non-fatal reports in my own magazine I only did so when they came from the jumper in question, or at least from someone close to the jumper who witnessed the event. And more importantly we didn't editorialize or add a "conclusion" section where we said what we thought the jumper "should" have done. This worked, but it was a "skydiving" notion. We were going with the old, "Well, if you lived through it, you did it right." This brings up the concept of "luck" and we'll get to that later.

On the practical side the problem is in getting jumpers to provide accident reports, effectively admitting they made a mistake, and also the work involved in keeping track of these reports. However, the sport has matured since the early days and maybe the time has come. I suppose these reports could be made without the names when requested but I know its all academic if the jumpers in question don't initiate these reports themselves.

Now, onto the subject of luck. One definition of luck is, "the chance happening of fortunate or adverse events." So call it luck, call it happenstance, call it Karma or whatever you want, but I know this force is real and exists in BASE jumping. It's the X factor, the thing you worry about standing on the edge, it's the thing on your mind after you say what the hell, I've done all I can to assure a good outcome, and launch.

It's very real that new BASE jumpers, and people outside the sport, grapple and focus on the obvious problem of just screwing up the courage to leave firm purchase. As you become more experienced that fear is replaced by another and more important aspect. And that is the pesky old X factor. As BASE jumping evolves jumpers who depend on luck rather than skill and knowledge are the disadvantaged and the ones who need the most help. The problem is getting them to realize it before its too late.

So, yes please, someone out there (who can handle the work load and the responsibility of doing it right) should start keeping track of the non-fatal BASE accidents. I know I and every other experienced BASE jumper has at least one good story to tell and this body of knowledge is worth preserving and passing on, just protect your nose . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Wow some great information. I will be talking to Johnny Utah about his base class, i have had a few friends jump with him from what i understand he has never had an accident and none of his students have either. Thanks again for all your replys.

Tim

Well great, you've just jinxed him... Brace yourself Johnny

the progression at that S just aint like that... we all know...

As long people rember that as they go back home to urban objects..