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TomAiello
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From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
I just got this from Douggs, who asked me to post it for him. Those who know him will recognize that I've done a bit of editing on grammar and such (at his request).

For those who don't know him, Douggs is a full time BASE instructor in Norway, very experienced skydiver, and has made more than 1000 BASE jumps. In my opinion, he is the best technical BASE jumper on earth at present.

In reply to:
Coombesy and I were in the USA this week when the accident happened so I don't know the full details but I would like to talk a little bit about our experiences with and concerns about hard core tracking.


There are many new designs of tracking suits on the market, and jumpers continue to refine their tracking skills. This has created new problems and dangers, some of which I have seen and some of which I have experienced.

The tracking suits inflate and create surface area and speed and lift if used correctly, but you still need to be able to track to get them to work as they are supposed to. If you do not fly your body strongly, the tracking suit will take over your jump and the suit will fly you, which can result in some very bad, scary, and potentially fatal experiences. Tracking suits can cause unintentional turns and out of control tumbles. They can also create extra challenges at pull time. I have seen people tumble with them and have experienced my own trouble with the other stuff when I first jumped my suit.

The other thing is that now that we are refining our tracking so much, we are not looking where we are going, but rather where we have been. This can give your track 40% more performance, which is great, but the down side is that it can suck you down really low without you knowing it. You really need to study the terain you are jumping to make it safe. Myself and Coombesy have both been sucked too low in this manner. We got away with it, but it wont be like that all the time, so we have started pitching a little higher to allow for the extra variables. We can only have fun while we are alive so what is 1 second less freefall? We can just do another jump.

My suggestion to people out there who have tracking suits is to jump them out of a plane a few times first, as you should do with all new things. I know that is not always the case, and I am one of those offenders sometimes. So if you go straight to the base jumps with them, start out conservative and work your way up to going hard. Take your time and ask questions of experienced jumpers in the area. Everyone is more than willing to share their experiences and opinions.

This sport is getting really safe but with every new aspect of the sport there are new problems arising, that are often resulting in a death before we acknowledge them. Lets all keep safe in the tracking department and don't get sucked down low.

These are just my opinions for what I have seen and done so please don't take them as gospel.

shine on
douggs

He's rarely on-line, so I doubt he'll be able to answer questions about this here, but the next time you're in Lysefjord I'm sure he'll be happy to share his thoughts with you.

Lots of stuff to consider and discuss there.
MickeN
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Good points. Tracking is fun and there are lots of new toys out there to help you go faster and further. But you need to know your stuff. What should help you make a safer jump could very easily make it a lot more dangerous if you don't know how to use it.

And in the quest for "the perfect flight" or "the longest track"... don't forget to have fun! Wink

/Micke N
TEAM BAUTASTEN
vandev
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
 I have read about tracking pants and jackets turning people around back to the wall and it seems that again the equipment has surpassed us. Like he said what is one secound.....to live another day by far out weighs a secound or two. I would really like to hear more about this last fatality as it is a shame that with 500 or so jumps that this had to happen. By what i have read he had to be right over the DZ. I would think that someone with this amount of experience would have nothing to prove to anybody at this point.....Would love to here from others about what that extra second means to them...I can't see the payoff...

Thank's for the article

Be safe, ChrisCool
JFK
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Thanks Douggs for this message.

Not so long time ago people started to fly with wingsuits from cliffs.
Nowadays people fly with tracking suits as well as the early birds were flying their small wingsuits.
Tracking suits are considered less dangerous because you are free from your movements and used to this type of exit.
But as Douggs said, this freedom can turn into unstable body positions and become really dangerous.

Getting away from the object requires a good track.
Flying requires a good flight.
Tracking suits tend to mix them, trying to provide the best assets from each and to reduce the risk linked to the equipment.
Tracking becomes flying and proper technique should be aquired to start flying from objects.
The risk linked to the flight remains.

JUl.
wwarped
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
Would love to here from others about what that extra second means to them...I can't see the payoff...

so much about jumping can't be TOLD.
it can be EXPERIENCED.

the few posts the come close to expressing the moment are always treasured.
base736
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
I would think that someone with this amount of experience would have nothing to prove to anybody at this point.....Would love to here from others about what that extra second means to them...I can't see the payoff...

If you had a choice between paragliding from, say, the cliffs in Norway and jumping from them, would you choose to jump? Ever? Even if you'd done the jump a hundred times before? If what you're after is the experience of jumping, then all the paragliding in the world won't scratch that itch.

While I've never taken it into the basement myself, my understanding is that the same holds true of those last few seconds of freefall. It's not about one or two seconds more of the same. It's about an entirely different set of visuals.
BASE_1007
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
 
In reply to:
The other thing is that now that we are refining our tracking so much, we are not looking where we are going, but rather where we have been. This can give your track 40% more performance, which is great, but the down side is that it can suck you down really low without you knowing it. You really need to study the terain you are jumping to make it safe. Myself and Coombesy have both been sucked too low in this manner.

douggs gave the advice "look between your legs for more performance" to several people.
yes,this technique works great, but has the described down sides.
try this in a skydive,remember the body position and fly this same position without looking behind you.
looking too far in front of you is also bad.
the real important thing is how high above ground you are,and the ground is directly below you.

the best performing position is a very unstable position who has to be adjusted the whole flight.
a little turbulence in the air can throw you around if you are not prepared for it.

high performing tracks like this:
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread
with a almost static body position are only possible in clean air.
(no cross wind and turbulence)
so if it's not the day for the good one,try again another day.
don't go for stupid goals like passing a road and find yourself too low.

i fly a classic tracking position with almost closed legs,do not look behind me and it performs similar like douggs technique.

practice in a save (skydiving) environment, find the limits and the best performance of the suit before you basejump it.

play save & have fun Smile

moritz
434
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Re: [BASE_1007] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
This is the sport I have seen forgiven to the most reckless ones, and hard to the safe ones! The last accident came very suprising to me and my friends, this was the unexpected one!

Listening to the experienced ones, and do your homework from the planes, instead of be suprised at the most unexpected time! I my self have been tracking along the wall out of controll for a sec or twice, and I have seen others out of controll as well with huge almost roll overs in cross wind, side slips. and altitude loss! I do not know more about the last accident than the most of you, but I know the more we learn about other accidents the safer we will get!

I have tried the most tracking suits at the marked, home made and pro ones! I have only one thing to say, it is fun, but need your fully attention, and respect!
TVPB
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Well said Douggs.

Couple of points that I would like to highlight.

1 - Douggs is giving everyone here some free, potentially life saving advice on his experiences. Take the advice before you get to form your on opinion in the afterlife.
2 - The preparation and logical skill development is critical. Don't watch Douggs take it low and then go do the same thing. Remember that he has done thousands of jumps and has more natural ability than almost everyone else on the planet. You may be blessed with more natural ability than him, but you have to give it a chance to be nurtured. The reality is, most people will fit somewhere below Douggs and above being a really crappy jumper. This is statistics. The majority of the population IS AVERAGE. that is what average means. To become above average you need special abilities OR lots of hard work. Some people can pick up a golf set and score only a few over par on their first attempt. Most people will need several years of practice to get there. You get my drift?????
3 - Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

Smile Smile Smile Smile

p.s. Douggs - now that Tom A has put the "best of the best" mocker on you, you'd better be extra careful!!!! Wink

I agree with Tom. Very few people I have met in the sport of BASE have a combination of the following characteristics:
- champion skydiving abilities with 1000's of jumps experience & currency (National Champion, World Meet Competitor, World Record Holder, etc).
- smart enough to recognise that skydiving DOES help and is CRITICAL in your safe development as a BASE jumper.
- champion BASE jumper with worldwide experience and over 1000 jumps.
- actual as opposed to preceived talent and skill - and with Douggs, its natural, not man made!!!
- despite his achievements, he is still humble enough to ask people of more, same, AND LESS experience/ability for their opinion, and he listens. That is one of the key reasons why he has developed into the jumper that he is.
- respect for the crusty old elders in the sport. Even those that are negative about modern day technique and advancement.
- a wonderful / endearing personality. He is positive and constructive in his approach to life. As he says "SHINE ON".
- readily admits when he makes mistakes and he takes steps to improve them. We are human. We make mistakes. If you believe that you don't make mistakes then you have no chance in correcting them!!!!!

Negatives:
- that bloody hairdo!!!! Wink
JeNnEjEnN
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Re: [TVPB] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
Negatives:
- that bloody hairdo!!!!

Oh hell NO!!!
It rocks!!! Smile
Jen
toni
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Hello Tom,

You mentioned in the Thread about "Beginners in Europe" (I don't know how to URL this thing) that TrackSuits are good to go.

I can only disagree in this context (Beginners).

What Douggs says: "...the tracking suit will take over your jump and the suit will fly you..." means for me, unless your track skills are not bomb proof, don't do it.

I do know only the non-tracking suit side, since I never dared to put one of these funny looking suits (unless maybe for a Hip-Hop Party) and I have done over 100 (sub)terminal track jumps. Maybe I'm just an old fart, loving my old track-jeans (but stay interested to try this once I know how to track and am open for it).

One Tip I can give is (I did some lows cause of this mistake) for exits you jump often: Don't take the distance as a reference for pulling (like Moritz mentions), always know where you are vertically!

thanks for this good reading
t.

"On ne vie pas de saut pres..."
Bennii
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
I went also unstable on opening in Kjerag in PF and was lucky to come so good out of it. The biggest advantage track suit has over ws is no wing and because of that you can get your track suit neutral by going in box and bend your knees, don't fight it to long in tracking position if you get out of balance.
Practice this in skydiving.

take care

Benni
Lee846
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Re: [Bennii] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Thanks for posting this, Tom... and great thanks to Douggs for all the tips and advice.

May I add my experience?) There are some cliffs in the world there you HAVE to track out. I mean the cliffs with the big ledges or less overhanging... Tacking stuff will help you only if you know how to fly it.) If you're going headdown or unstable because of the tracking suit it's always worse than the regular but stable track without any flying stuff.
And if you gonna jump some scary stuff hoping that it'll be your tracking pants that will safe your life.... you're probably f***d. These cliff are jumpable with you best regular tracking (and tracking pants will just give you an extra performance for fun) or it's the other kind of cliffs -- advanced stuff for experienced flyers who know how to fly it long and safe and you have no business there unless and until you'll get more experienced (and it's still youself who's saving your life, even with a help of some toys, you're quite familiar with).
I was recently given a very good lesson in France.PiratePiratePirate
TomAiello
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Re: [toni] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
You mentioned in the Thread about "Beginners in Europe" (I don't know how to URL this thing) that TrackSuits are good to go.

I will cheerfully retract that statement, and defer to Douggs experience. He has far more terminal experience than I, as well as far more experience teaching beginners doing terminal jumps.
unclecharlie95
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Wise words from our man Douggs.

The User Manual for the PF Pants & Jacket can be downloaded from the articles section of the PF website, here:

http://www.phoenix-fly.com/...ket_usermanual_1.pdf

In the User Manual we advise that BASE trackers should read sections of the wingsuit BASE guidelines, which can be downloaded here:

In http://www.phoenix-fly.com/...0Wingsuit%20BASE.pdf

The visual of a good track with smoke/ track pants is very similar to a wingsuit. Do not trust your eyes. You only realise how low you are when you release the PC and stop flying.

Play safe everyone
J
JaapSuter
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
I wonder if anybody can say anything useful about pilotchute packing for terminal, fumbling for the pilotchute, hard-pulls, slow throws, and pilotchute hesitations.

The safest advice is to make sure we don't end up low. However, in the occasion that we do find ourselves low, intentionally or not, what can we do to minimize the amount of time between thinking oh-crap and line stretch?

Even the slightest misreach, tugged-pull or pilotchute hesitation could mean the difference between barely hitting line-stretch and death. At terminal speed, every millisecond covers a lot of distance.

Does anybody have anything to say about this?
vandev
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Would or could anyone comment on the 3 available tracking pants. Pressurized, Birdman, and PF. I would also like to here about a better and safer way to approch using these or working up to using them safely. I would tend to think that a pair of slighly baggy pants like cargo pants would aid in tracking. I also believe that even with several flights in a pair of tracking pants in a skydiving envirorment would not completly prepair yourself for a base flight with them. It seems there are so many other varibles and not the luxury of time like in a skydive to work out problems that you may incounter. I did say "completly" . Any skydiving done practicing with these pants and suit will no doubt help in transitioning to a base jump. I also heve seen these used in non terminal jumps like Swiss. Are these harder to use in a subterminal enviorment and can they make a subterminal jump more dangerous..

Would like to here your opinions...

Thanks all, ChrisCool
TomAiello
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
I'd recommend doing a search in this forum for "Smoke Pants" also. That's a pretty cheap option, that outperforms the Birdman Pantz for a tenth the price. Be aware, though, that you ought to test your smoke pants out of a plane first, as I can think of two cases in which experienced jumpers (ironically enough, myself and Douggs) found themselves spinning out of control when their smoke pants failed on their maiden voyage (he lost the waist band and ended up with pants around his ankles, and I popped a leg, and ended up with one inflated leg spinning me in circles).

I've got no personal experience with the Pressurized version. I've heard that they perform in the same general range as the Phoenix Fly version. Either of these, in my opinion, will perform better than the Birdman version, which, from personal experience, is noticeably worse than an ultra-cheap pair of smoke pants.
vandev
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Thanks Tom, i did read the smoke pants posts. Very good stuff. I dont think price is a option for me at this point. i think i am worth the extra couple hundred bucks and would pay a extra couple hundred to know that i have a better chance of not having a blow out at pull time. I would also think that a 70's baggy skydive suit would aid in tracking . I noticed in the movie Continuim, the Denver crew wore skydiving pants and suits and seemed to get good results . i would also assume they are very talented as well with out these by the footage. My other subterminal question was more about using a suit at say Swiss. If you where doing a say 8 or 9 second delay and at pull time you are closer to terminal wouldnt that suit also want to really start working as you gained the speed? I could think of nothing worse that at pull time that all of a sudden that suit give you a big surge and be off balance...

The only thing i read in the forums about the presurized suit is that it turned a guy back to the wall on his first 2 jumps. Being that he was already experienced enough at Big wall sites this gives me thoughts about training in them...

Thanks, ChrisCool
JeNnEjEnN
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
I'd recommend doing a search in this forum for "Smoke Pants" also. That's a pretty cheap option, that outperforms the Birdman Pantz for a tenth the price. Be aware, though, that you ought to test your smoke pants out of a plane first, as I can think of two cases in which experienced jumpers (ironically enough, myself and Douggs) found themselves spinning out of control when their smoke pants failed on their maiden voyage (he lost the waist band and ended up with pants around his ankles, and I popped a leg, and ended up with one inflated leg spinning me in circles).
Also another note to remember, is to wear long pants under the track pants when testing them 1st out of a plane... I had mine blow out at the seams & whip/beat my legs the whole way down. Not too fun Shocked

Jen
JaapSuter
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Re: [JeNnEjEnN] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
...whip/beat my legs the whole way. Not too fun.

Yeah, whatever. Wink
BASE_1007
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
terminal speed in a phoenix-fly suit is much lower then without.
for a good flyer this is around 100km/h and is reached after about 4 seconds. after about 6 or 7 you can be in a full flight. the lower speed gives you some extra seconds. the forward movement can give you extra altitude.
correctly used it's a lot of fun and works very well in switzerland.
JeNnEjEnN
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Re: [JaapSuter] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
...whip/beat my legs the whole way. Not too fun.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yeah, whatever.

no really.. it was like an ice/rain storm in my pants. ouchPirate
JaapSuter
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Re: [JeNnEjEnN] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
rain storm in my pants

Not helping yourself here... Wink.

It's getting a little too Bonfirey now. Sorry Tom and Jennejenn. Just remove my posts....
lifewithoutanet
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Post deleted by lifewithoutanet
 
JaapSuter
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Re: [lifewithoutanet] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Last I heard, Jennejenn isn't single. Then again, neither was Abbie and that changed very quickly.
NickDG
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Re: [lifewithoutanet] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
I'm in the same boat as the fellow who likes his jeans. I brought a pair of Churchill body surfing fins to a skydiving tracking meet in the early 80s and when I asked if I could use them, I got a large collective groan from the group and, "Fly your body, man," was the general consensus . . .

The collective history of wing suits goes back to the early 20th Century when barnstorming parachutists are trying new ways to get people to come see their acts. The problem of going too low was first experienced by these jumpers and they called it target fixation. Most of the "birdmen" of that time died wearing their wings. Granted the wings of old were sometimes wooden or metal braced and the parachuting gear was pretty complicated but still there was only one birdmen from that era that survived a full career of jumping the wings. It was so rare a feat they wrote a book about him. When wing suits made their comeback in modern times I couldn't help but think, okay, here we go again.

Yet the first years of wing suit flying on the drop zone went pretty well and now there doesn't seem to be a problem with skydivers using them. It's probably because they pull high and don't get sucked in by the visuals unlike their barnstorming relatives. The first BASE wing suit fatality is in 2002 and since then six or seven more have occurred. Is this a learning curve we'll get over, or the beginning of some real problems?

Sure, I marvel at BASE wing suit flight and I'm drawn to it, but I'll probably never try it myself as (and this is just me) it seems to violate a cardinal rule that demands BASE jumping be kept as simple as possible. In the old days we told new BASE jumpers they could follow others or be pioneers. This meant going to sites already jumped successfully instead of going around trying out new sites for the first time. In the same vein newer BASE jumpers should realize they never have to jump the wings, never have to do Tards or even aerials, and its okay to spend the day in your old jeans . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194
vandev
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Re: [unclecharlie95] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
This is also good stuff....i would really like to hear from who is actually wearing them...using them....Even if you are the manufacture........ I see more video than i hear from users..... I see the guy tracking the ITTW with pressurized pants and tracking like a banchie...but again what kind of jump numbers does he have and he is a very low puller so it's hard to judge if you pulled at safe altitude...what difference would it make....No offence but at the Valley he had a 3 secound canopy ride... that does not seem like a way to promote safety....you wouldnt give a guy with zero experience a base rig so why should you sell a pair of pants to someone who does not understand the complete risks of what they have the potentional to do....I think it's a valid question...again i could be totally wrong....just pokeing for information to try to avoide making stupid mistakes...Crazy

Thanks chrisCool
vandev
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Re: [NickDG] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Hey Nickster...fins are cool....i tried fins and a boggie board after i saw it in a video....it was a amusment ride to say the least......It felt like a camera suit gone possesed......I did read though about people wearing tracking booties like on a 4 way suit and said they worked better than pants at Norway..... i could believe that......

Hope all is well Nickster....Cool
JeNnEjEnN
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Re: [JaapSuter] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
Last I heard, Jennejenn isn't single.

hehehe... where'd ya hear that from?Sly
TomAiello
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Somewhere, I have a video of one of the Norgies taking fins and a snorkel off exit #6. It's pretty amusing, but it really is a heck of a track.
Maxim
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
imagine the big monofins some freedivers use.

that would add a hell of alot of surface area
podl01
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
here's my input to your questions:

first of all, my experiences are based on the pressurized suit because I mainly use that one Wink

We were discussing if we should recommend a minimum of skydives on our suit. But it's not the question of how many skydives you have, at the end it's the question of how comfortable you feel when you launch from a cliff with unknown equipment. You feel much more comfortable when you know your equipment! For most people that's when they have already done some jumps from a plane and already know how to fly the suit and how to recover from an unstable body position.

I saw both: people who first took the suit into skydiving to get used to it and people (already experienced with tracking) who jumped the suit from a cliff for the first time, felt safe and flew like hell.
When I hear that a guy turned towards the wall, then it probably would have been better for him to jump the suit from plane first. If you're used to the suit then you don't turn to the wall, it's more like the opposite- you get distance to the object after a few seconds!

There's no discussion that an airplane is the best choice for getting started with any kind of suit.
A friend of mine is a good example for that. He did several jumps from plane and really got familiar with the suit. He was almost affronted when he was not allowed to jump the suit on his first E.

about low pulling I agree with what has been said. It's obviously that lowpulls bring extra risk into a jump, and there's no need of more extra risk in this sport. sometimes it's just hard to put this into practice...

andreas

www.pressurized.at
vandev
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Re: [podl01] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Thanks Andreas, Would you also come to the same opinion that a pair of just baggy pants for you first terminal jumps would help at all. Also, I notice that the jumper jumping your suit has a bit of a different track position. Would this be only possible to achieve threw use with on a tracking dive skydiving without your pants or do the pants favor putting you in this position being that that extra material between your leg acts as a wing to help push up your mid section?. And anyway i could get a demo pair to try out skydiving....?

Thanks, Chris Cool
TVPB
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
V

Douggs has already given an answer to your question.

Learn how to track properly first, then use the tracking pants.

Learn on skydives first, then take your skills on BASE jumps.

If a person can't nail the stuff on skydives, they have no business trying it on a BASE jump. Putting yourself at risk and as a consequence, exposing other jumpers with you with a potential fatality is NOT the way to learn.

The difference between a skydive and BASE jump is simple - aerodynamics!!!! Planes fly when they have relative ari flow. Skydives give you this on the exit (usually), BASE exits don't. This means that you have to position your body on a BASE jump to both maintain stability, AND to simulate the affects of an airfoil passing through air (relative airflow). You stuff with this equation (i.e. unstable, stall points, disturbed air flow, etc), you don't fly efficiently.

Obviously, there are many other differences but you were asking about flight.

There is no short cut to becoming the World Formula One Racing Champion. You work hard, you develop your skills, you constantly assess and reassess your performance (preferably and more efficiently with a coach), and you alter your techniques such that you improve. Similarly, there is no short cut to becoming a super BASE tracker. You can certaily get there quicker by getting the right information up front. But it still takes a lot of hard work and time. Smile

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom
pgpilot
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Re: [lifewithoutanet] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
The pressurized suit is pretty hard to beat, I think. It's not the cheapest, but it is the best in my opinion. I started with birdman pantz, tried my friends PF suit at the gorge near my house in France, and purchased the pressurized jacket/pants from Andy in May.
The pants have a considerably larger surface area than the PF pants, and I doubt that the same jumper would have 'similar' performance if they tried both suits- I think he/she would notice the slower descent rate with the pressurized suit. I jumped my Pressurized suit from Tandem PGs a few times and heli's twice before jumping cliffs, and it has proved to be pretty stable from the beginning, even with my lousy tracking skills. But you can really feel it, and I do see the potential of the suit taking over your jump if you let it go- but the solution is easy- go skydive a bunch or something.
beergood
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Chris you been able to make you first BASE jump yet? If not you have a good knowledge base get to a FJC. Labor day is coming Tom is doing his!!!
tfelber
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Re: [TVPB] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
Learn how to track properly first, then use the tracking pants.

This thread has brought up a lot of self-doubt for me in regards to tracking. I think I'm a pretty good tracker. When I was a student my instructor told me to do a 180 at 5k and track hard. When I got to the ground he brought the video over and said his intention was to track past me, but I turned 180 and took off. He couldn't keep up with me. Recently, I participated in the Gravity Games at Elsinore. One of the contest was to track from the plane, in jeans, and you were awarded points if you could get past the runway by 5k. I was one of five that made it past and it really seemed very easy to me. I made it all the way to the landing area where I just fell stable the rest of the way to pull altitude. However, Mr. Tagle had no problem catching and passing me while shooting video, I think this was partly due to my looking forward. When He flew under me and took my air away and I looked down I felt a change in body position and an accelleration. BTW, the jumper who had set the path of the plane said we would have to track our asses off to get back to the target.

So comes my question, what does "track properly" mean? If I'm tracking as far and as fast as I think I am, even though I know I can always do better, what do I use as a measurement? I read up-thread about instability form more than one jumper that I would assume were proficient trackers before trying new tools and they had problems. I've tried the PF suit and I didn't have any issues with stability or control. Granted it definately felt a lot slipperier and I could feel an extra force trying to accellerate my lower body, kinda like your ass trying to pass you in flight.

I am considering trying a wingsuit at Rantoul this year, but as I said at the start of this post, have some self-doubt issues to overcome to mitigate the perceived risk. Am I just being nuts or what? Any feedback or direction would be appreciated.
Bennii
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Re: [tfelber] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
when you have the new suit both pants and jacket you are in semi wingsuit and like all wingsuitpilots know you colapse the wings when you open unless your advenced pilot and pull in full flight, if you do that i think you should know how to do the easier step first. Many pull in full track on terminal walls and that works quite well, but im not sure that all realize the big diffrens on suit and no suit.

just my 2 cents


Benni
Atle
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
Would you also come to the same opinion that a pair of just baggy pants for you first terminal jumps would help at all.

Just jumping a pair of baggy pants won't really prepare you for jumping smokepants/pf pants or any other inflatable pants. Baggy pants don't fly, they are just drag. But a lot of tracking will make the transition easier.
The better you track without pants, the easier it is to track good with pants.

Another thing for those who already jump pants/jacket and are really getting close to a supertrack. Most jumpers are used to pull with the left hand in front of the head to get a symmetric pull. In my experience this is no longer a symmetric pull, and can make you unstable. I have experienced that I have started turning left or right as I started to pull, creating offheading openings. I now do a "wingsuitpull" combined with a slight de-arche. This workes really well for me.

Atle Dahl
portillo
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Re: [Atle] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
first of all i have to say, that my experiences are based on the pressurized suit.

after my first year in skydiving and first impressions about BASE as groundcrew i focused on BASE skills during my following skydiving. i did normal trackdives and started soon jumping the tracksuit. i almost did 50 jumps from a plane with it.

when it finally comes to my first E this year in norway, i took the FJC with elin. i told her, that for me it is safer to jump my tracksuit from kjerag. after my first jump without the suit i was allowed to jump it and i almost took it back to the landing area.

i agree to what people said here: first take it from a plane and get known to the suit, than take it to BASE.

andY
morri
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Re: [portillo] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Smile
Rainer
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Re: [podl01] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
I'm not sure, if it is the best to jump it from airplanes or other motorized aircrafts.
From my point of view it is the best to jump tracking suits out of a balloon - they simulate b.a.s.e. conditions perfectly.
I saw people having troubles doing a correct exit. Because tracking suits start to "fly" very early , you have less chances to recover from any shit you did at the exit (too head heavy, too steep,...). After a good exit it's much more easy to fly stable.
For me, the first 4-6 secondes are the most critical phase doing a jump with tracking stuff.

keep sparklin' and smilin'
cheers from the alps
rainer
Faber
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Re: [vandev] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
In reply to:
Would love to here from others about what that extra second means to them...I can't see the payoff...
to me the last second is evrything,i love that momentas much as i like the exit.When i hit the last second its like the goal of my jump,no matter if im taking 1 or 4 sec delays.

That said i never used Track in BASE,i simplynever were in a altitude were i could do much of a difference(900ft as max and even by tracking possition from there i wouldnt say i get a hole world of a distance covered),

but i can understand why people tracking and flying bigwalls want that extra aswell..

As Douggs say,why? we can just do another jump..Its right but most of us like to get that extra whith..

Funny thing is that a mate and i looked at some tracking vid last nite and we spoke about that people might get killed by flying thouse walls.

Keep it safe as you can out there and calculate the risk of each of your jumps and actions,even by that you can still find yourself in deep trouble..
subterminal
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Re: [TomAiello] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
Although it started on a tragic note, it is good to see this thread revived early in the big-wall season!
Reread; and be safe this summer!

CJ=)
460
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Re: [lifewithoutanet] From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking
I find flapping my arm vigorously to help my tracking ability, kind of like a flying chicken. Tongue