Basejumper.com - archive

I've been feeling the call to the dark side for a long time now, but have recently been feeling I might be "ready" to get started, whatever that means.

I understand that it's an added benefit to first jump a BASE canopy a # of times in the skydiving environment to get a feel for how it flies. My question is this... how big of a BASE canopy do you think I can fit in my Vector sized for a 170 Spectre? Is that out of the question? I think, based on what I've read, that I'm shooting for about a 260 sq ft BASE canopy. I really don't want to have to obtain new skydiving gear just to do some hop-n-pops with a BASE canopy, but if it is truly important, I will.

Also, I do understand the importance of seeking out a real life mentor and plan on doing so when I am ready to move forward.

I would ask to borrow a student rig, or if you want, you can borrow my big rig if a ROL(leg throwout) dosent scare ya.

Depending on how ballsy you are, you could probably freepack (use the tailpocket, remove the D-bag) a 220. It will be spilling over on all sides and you might want to stick to hop-and-pops. I don't think this is a good idea though.

Buy a properly loaded BASE canopy (a 260 in your case) and use that. Then make a deal with your dropzone about renting a big student container and reserve. That's what I did, and they only charge me 7 US dollars rental per jump. The added benefit is that I now have two rigs which makes doing more jumps in a day easier.

If you dropzone is non-USPA, get a base container and install chest loops so you can attach a belly mount reserve. This way you can jump your actual BASE packjob and see how your heading performance is.

If you decide to use your skydiving rig, get a crewdog to show you how to pack it. But be very careful. A friend used my skydiving rig once to test a base canopy, and on opening he ended up with his steering lines wrapped around the slider.

Even so, that was not an issue of fitting the canopy into the rig but of his insistence on running the steering lines outside the slider grommets in spite of all good counsel that it was a RealBadIdea®.

rl

use your BASE gera with a tertiary reserve...??????

Well, strictly speaking it would be secondary, and since the word reserve implies backup, it's really the primary reserve. But anal retentiveness aside, I jump my full BASE gear out of the plane while wearing what is commonly referred to as a tertiary parachute or a belly-mounted reserve.

Did I mention I jump at a great dropzone?

Admittedly, I would much rather not wear the belly-mount at all, but there's laws to comply with.

In the US the FAA will not allow this since the rig is not TSO'd.

I see, I thought it was a USPA guideline, not an FAA regulation.

Do the same rules apply for visiting jumpers with rigs from other countries? I believe European and Russian jumpers can take non-TSO'd rigs to the States and jump them, right? Can this provide a loophole?

Unless things have changed in the past few years, an FAA waiver is required. I don't know how anyone else does it, but DeLand has a blanket waiver to allow foreign jumpers to jump non-TSO'd gear. At a dropzone which does not possess such a waiver, the jumper would be required (I guess) to obtain one on his own behalf.

Even then, the dropzone will be required to approve of and take a certain amount of responsibility for allowing the gear to be jumped. Ergo, it may not be so easy to get a strange set-up past a nervous dzo.

The large dzs (Perris, DeLand, Skydive Arizona and Cross Keys) have this information at their fingertips, as do the gear manufacturers. Don't reinvent the wheel when all you need to do is call 'em and ask.

rl

Neah, I'll just stick to Canada.

I think you'll find that Vector is too small for your properly sized BASE canopy. Your best bet is probably going to be to borrow or rent larger gear to practice with. I've got an old accuracy rig I use for jumping BASE canopies out of planes. You're welcome to borrow it, but you'll probably need to get the reserve repacked. Send me a PM if you'd like to use it.

Perry's Vector works cus he has a custom small Troll in it

Welcome to the darkside, Lord, hopefully we can do some flocking over here too

That Vector still looks huge anyway. I just found out he only has a 180 in it.

And I am totally ok with all the good-natured ribbing (in return for the well-deserved ribs I give you), but where the fuck did this "Lord of the Skies" thing come from? Is it some inside joke I am missing, or should I just chalk it up to you being you? Either way, at least my legs are hairy.

Does the FAA require that your main be TSO'd or is it just the harness/container and reserve?

The main does not require a TSO.

Mains are not certified. Harness/Containers and reserves are. For more info on the TSO process seach the Gear fourm.

I found a good deal on an appropriately sized rig by searching the classifieds for words like "student" and "big". Just for reference, my BlackJack 280 fits tightly in my Vector II 10.5.

Just keep an old Javelin J-5 around. Almost everything fits in that . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Yeah, the tertiary makes it so you are following the rules (in Canada) and let's you jump your shit! Perfect wouldn't you say? I mean, not like you are depending on it, mostly there for show.
I trust my BASE gear on both terminal and sub-terminal so why not skydiving?
My thoughts......... file'em where you like

Totally, the problem is two canopy containers are so complicated their own account makes the reserve necessary.

Every BASE jump is a cutaway . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I was going to ask about how long it's been since you've jumped out of a plane, but the rig is out of date, so I'm guessinbg it's been a while....

Ganja

> Just keep an old Javelin J-5 around. Almost everything fits in that . . .
Yes, indeed. Into my Javelin J4 I did something like 40 jumps with (BASE packed) my Fox 245 (only Vtec-ed at the time).
And, for helping as student of mine, I packed his (valved Vtec) Flik 266 into my J4, it was jolly tight indeed, but it worked nicely!!! He managed to do 5 or 6 skydives.
Keep into account that X-size Flik packs slightly smaller than X-size Fox, I think that a 265 Fox (valved Vtec) wouldn't have fit into my J4.
But, anyway, I too think that with a J5 you can stick any (reasonably) large BASE parachute in it!!! Up to at least a 280÷285ish!!!

What will fit Flik 322?

when ever a skydiver questions about jumping without a reserve I always retort "I do jump with a reserve, I just dont jump with a main" - I think this is more realistic and also goes to show "some" skydivers that they to only really put their life in the hands of one parachute in the end..........

> What will fit Flik 322?
Probably a Flik 322 WON'T stick into a J5, but consider that a Flik 322 is a parachute few BASE jumpers in the world possess.
In case of a Flik 322, just borrow a student rig form the DZ (a rig where they are used to stick a 300ish for students) and off you go (=off yoy skydive).

Would it fit in a tandemrig?

What about using the basecanopy as a tirth parachute, and d-baging it from the plane?

Thijs

exactly................ I would so much prefer to take my BASE rig out of a plane than take my BASE canopy stuffed in a dual parachute system................... if you can wear the front mount for show and for rules then do it,...... and if you question doing that, then you should not be taking a single parachute system on your back from plane or object.....................

All BASE jumps are not equal. Accuracy is not important when the landing area is flat and bigger than a football field. It's more important where you're landing on railroad tracks in a narrow canyon where a few feet off in one direction will fly you into a cliff and a few feet in the other will dump you in a 40 degree river with rapids. It's more important where you have 60' to land, going long puts you in trees, and landing short flies you into a steep hillside covered in boulders and pieces of the trees that used to cover the landing area.

Here's one example to put things in a skydiving perspective: The landing area under the Mexican big wall is currently 7% of the size the FAA considers to be a stadium for skydiving demos. A pro-rating (10 consecutive standup landings within 5 meters) and 50 jumps in the last year under that canopy would be required. When the second group jumped it did't even meet the FAA's minimum landing area requirement. Two out of seven jumpers went home injured after their first jump.

If you're going to jump into tight landing areas buy yourself a big used skydiving rig which will let you make dozens of jumps in a safe environment before you have to do it into someplace nasty. I spent just $700 on a J7 (officially sized for a Manta 288) with a Raven-III reserve.

That thought did cross my mind, and I will probably aim for first BASE jumps with large landing areas.

But I'm also under the impression that flight exposure time to the canopy is good for more than learning landing skills. Deployments, object avoidance, quick maneuvers, intentional mals , etc... I guess all of these things could theoretically be learned off of a "safe" BASE object too, but you get so much more time in a skydive (there was a discussion on these forums about this very thing some time ago...)

just because you have a large landing area does not mean you are any better off..................

many people get hurt not being able to fly a canopy at low altitude............

Also, many people who figure "well, I'll just do easy stuff now, so I don't need to practice" find themselves on harder objects before they find the time to go back to the DZ and practice with the canopy.

Tom, I agree, and I did not mean to imply that a large landing was a substitute for learning the canopy ahead of time. I meant that if you combine both (skills on the canopy + a forgiving LZ for your first jump) you would be better off.

813, I don't quite understand what you mean by "not being able to fly canopy at a low altitude". Example?

Many skydivers have very limited experience making low turns. The most experienced group in this is the swoopers, who, of course, are experts at making low turns, but, unfortunately, on canopies that are very different from BASE canopies.

In BASE, you often have to make your entire canopy flight below the altitude that you'd make your last turn on a skydive. This difference has resulted in accidents when beginner BASE jumpers (and not so beginners, too) are thrown into the unfamiliar environment of _having_ to turn low when their skydiving training screams "no low turns!"

I hope someone somewhere is starting a list of all the "skills" skydiving teaches that must be unlearned to base jump successfully.

That being said, in the bad old days, students were taught survival skills in the context of a static line course. Now, mostly because of AFF and windtunnels, freefall skills are emphasized to the exclusion of flying one's canopy to the ground. On the other hand, flat and flare turns have been discussed to death on dz. com, and prior to that, on rec.skydiving, and they still are taught by those few small dropzones run by old-fashioned farts who have no use for "progress."

Aside to Matt: there are few such small dzs in our neck of the woods.

rl

theres a florida dz, right down the street (17N) from deland and rhonda, that is run by "old farts who have no use for "progress""... it starts with a "p" and ends with "alatka".... cool family style dz with an emphasis on knowing your shit...
and no fatalities ever...

give a shout if anyones ever in the are... -b

The111,

Having recently done what you are pondering, I thought I'd humbly offer my experiences. I'd like to start out by saying that jumping my Dagger out of a plane is one of the most educational things I've ever done with it. Extremely eye-opening, especially for a low-experience guy like myself.

As far as rigging it up, I spent a little bit (ok a lot) of money and tried to keep things "standard". I bought a used Mirage M-8, old reserve, old cypres, and got it assembled & reserve packed. The M-8 is not a size listed on most Mirage size charts I looked at, because it is so big, but it is out there. This container holds my 278' very well and can theoretically go down to about a 225 if I recall correctly. But I bet it could also hold a low-300' canopy. Don't trust my guesses, check with the manufacturer's recommendation.

Next, I basically took my BASE rig, cut away the canopy at the 3-rings, and hooked the BASE risers to the Mirage. I put on the mesh slider, made sure to reroute the steering lines properly, and replaced the bridle/PC with a standard skydiving bag + collapsible PC. Packed it just like a normal skydiving rig. Some people have talked about freepacking it or whatnot, but since I have never freepacked a canopy into a skydiving container, and had been advised against trying, it made no sense to attempt something I hadn't done before when the standard skydiving rigging & pro pack would work fine.

I was also advised against any non-standard routings of the brake lines. Having heard of the resulting scenarios that have happened to people, I can't imagine I'll ever try that, either.

Even with a mesh slider (I haven't done a terminal BASE jump yet) I was surprised at how fast the canopy deployed without sacrificing any comfort at all. I suspect that using a tailpocket, the opening would be a little firmer, but I'll leave it to the experienced folks to comment yay/nay on that. (Any takers?)

After the first skydive on it, I was convinced it was worth every penny & effort. You can definitely do it for cheaper by renting student gear, but I don't live where I can do that. Plus it's my own gear to learn on as I see fit, on my own schedule, and I can't use laziness as an excuse for not futzing around with borrowed/rented gear. To me, the ongoing & future benefit of having this rig handy is worth the somewhat tall expense. I plan on keeping this rig and when I get my next BASE canopy I will probably skydive it before I ever jump it.

One newbie to another, my only regret is not doing this sooner! I also suggest searching through the archive for Jaap's threads regarding his experience when he was asking questions about skydiving his new canopy.

I'm not saying I did everything right, and if someone notices an error, by all means let me know before it becomes self-critiquing!