Basejumper.com - archive

So what's the scoop on the ABP?? Just got word that Robin H. has had it out with the other members (suprise!) and decided to shut down the web site and start over with new BOD members.

Do the paying members not get a say in this?? Why does RH have the last say in this matter? Just because he owns the website address doesn't mean he can boot out all the other members does it?

If this is the case I want my $100 back

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I would strongly urge any discussion regarding this matter to be resolved away from the boards until proper statements can be made.

The last thing the ABP or the BASE community needs is speculation.

For the record, I know nothing about this matter. I suspect that should there be some truth to the above, the ABP board members will be responsible enough to come forward with a public statement and resolve it in the BASE community's best interest.

I hope...

Yesterday, Robin, with the backing of Gardner and Jason, informed the rest of the board (myself, Jason Bell, Martin Tilley, Adam Filipino, Todd Shoebotham and Jimmy Pouchert) that we were no longer part of the organization.

Since Gardner controls the bank account, t-shirts, membership cards, and other physical apparatus, and Jason Dawson controls the web site, mailing lists, and other electronic apparatus, they can pretty much do as they wish.

It is my assumption that they will continue to pursue BASE access goals. Apparently they feel that they will be better able to pursue those goals without the aid of the aforementioned former BOD members. Gardner has given me his word that should the ABP cease to pursue these goals, any remaining treasury monies will be donated to an appropriate charity.



No. Jason and Gardner were clear in stating that this is not a member driven organization, and there will be no voting to determine anything, by either the membership or the board.


I must admit that at this point I'm very taken aback, and a little confused by this whole thing. Suffice to say that I regret having encouraged others to donate money, and I find it particularly ironic that I was on national television wearing an ABP shirt on the same day the ABP told me that I was having a negative effect on their efforts for greater access.


Below, I've reproduced Robin's letter to the board. I have the original word document, with Robin's signature and the ABP letterhead, but the graphics files are too large for DZ.com attachment. Feel free to email me if you would like a copy.

See the bottom of my post for the official ABP statement.


Jason Dawson told me yesterday that the reorganized ABP has no interest in representing the BASE community. The organization will move toward it's goals of BASE access as it sees fit, without consultation or discussion with other jumpers. I believe that it is felt that BASE jumpers, on the whole, are not mature or far sighted enough to be involved in a campaign for access, and that a few dedicated individuals will serve the ABP's goals better than a larger group.

I take it the Robin Heid who would best represent the "mature" BASE community is the same Robin Heid that pounded in at RG last year after jumping a small-ish Triathalon with a sail slider?

Just checking....

Although this is correct, I don't really think it has any bearing on his ability as an advocate or organizer.

For example, I've got no idea if Chris Needels is any good as a skydiver, or even if he's a skydiver at all.

So what is the purpose of the APB then, if not to support Back country parachutists (aka base jumpers)? Maybe they are distancing themselves publically on purpose. Maybe to prove or show somthing to someone higher in the food chain politcally speaking?

That says, Thanks for funding my idea and now you can all go .....


Whats the first in Utah and then everywhere else. I thought the main goal was to get The yellowstone bad boy opened....And what's with other countries crap...They have the best and highest base sites open.... There we go again ...try to go over to some other country and show them how to do the things we cant even do ourselves right.. Thanks god i didn't send any money to these clowns..

lets see.. hire very talented people to raise money...then fire talented people...Nick D. is going to have a field day with this one.....

Furthermore, most of us were aware of this before we decided to support the ABP. There is no need to bring this up in hindsight.

The mission of the APB, as stated on their web page is:


Note that representing jumpers, or communicating with jumpers, or even being jumpers, is not part of the organizations mission.

I personally think it does because his actions have a large bearing on his credibility. If he's trying to paint himself as a mature jumper, and then goes off and pulls stunts like that, the words pretty much ring hollow. Worse, any negative publicity he draws from such stunts, while being a professed "representative" of the community only makes everyone else look bad.

But certainly I would hope that communicating with members is part of the organizations mission. I find it disappointing that I have to find out about this state of affairs through an unofficial post on these forums.

Robin reads these forums, so I urge him to come forward with a statement. It would be the very least he could do to those members that have financially helped him. My reason for supporting the ABP was because it was backed up by people whom I respect a lot (Jason, Tom, Jimmy, Martin, Adam, Todd, etcetera). With them gone, my support is dwindling.


This may be clear to the board members, but it is not clear to any of the other other members. I suspect it has something to do with the recent ideas about a Yosemite protest jump, but I would like to hear Robin's version.

I'm a bit confused here with the 'Old ABP' and 'New ABP' now. Does my membership to the 'Old ABP' and the money that I paid for it translate to anything or am I to consider it null and void and forget it ever happened.

Is this, 'New ABP' going to be more like a private, exclusive and by invitation only club with it's own agenda for fair access or is there more to it.

There is no old or new ABP, there is a single ABP. Only the structure in charge of it has changed. You are still a member.

I would tend to agree on this. I think the APB is distancing themselves on purpose, as I posted previously.

Here's the official ABP statement for members:

Re Chris: he is and he is. And while it is always possible that he could have a skydiving accident, such an accident will not come about because he failed to exercise good judgment. His sense of responsibility to the organization he represents is greater than that.

What would you think if the American Cancer Society were run by a smoker? How about if AA and NA were led by active drinkers and junkies?

Those who represent an organization have the responsibility of presenting their group in the best possible light to obtain the outcome for which that group was founded. In this case, ABP may not represent the base community as a whole, but it does certainly represent those persons who purchased memberships, however few they may be.

rl

 

That sounds familiar.

While I understand where you're coming from, I think part of the problem is sort of inverted. We have too many "leader" types.

Hence the oft-quoted "herding cats" analogy.

 

The domain name isn't the deciding factor.

The actual apparatus which is the ABP rests almost exclusively in the hands of two people. Jason Dawson, the organization's webmaster, controls the web page, including the letter writing system and email lists. Gardner Sapp, the executive director, controls the physical property of the organization, including the membership cards, t-shirts, flyers, and, perhaps most importantly, the bank account. In practice, these two people between them could decide to ignore, or eject, any other person or group of people from the organization.

Dear ABP Members and the backcountry parachuting community at large,

Mark Twain said “a lie can get halfway around the world before truth has time to put its shoes on” and so it is with all things parachuting-related; the grapevine is small so news, rumors, and misinformation travel quickly.

By now we’re sure you’ve heard strange things surrounding the organizational structure of the ABP, the retirement of its ad hoc board of directors, and – most likely – stories of in-fighting and power struggles within the organization and among the various parties that have until recently been involved with the ABP and its access efforts.

Historically and, unfortunately, at the heart of failed organizational attempts of the past, BASE jumpers seldom seem to be able to get along with one another – especially when they become drunk with power, and in the name of vanity seize an opportunity to latch onto something that’s moving forward – followed by attempts to ‘toss out’ members they do not like or with whom they do not see eye-to-eye on certain issues. This has been the case with every attempt to organize in the past – and recently occurred inside the ABP as well. It is most unfortunate that certain individuals are unable to put aside their petty differences, seem unable to come together for the greater good of the whole, and in the process stifle progress and success.

For the past four weeks the ABP has had to endure this in-fighting and power struggling. One member even went so far as to issue an ultimatum demanding that he would resign if another member did not. This served only to jam a stick into the spokes of an otherwise efficiently-running machine. The past four weeks could have been better spent developing planning documents and briefings for the Utah Board of Parks and Recreation issue and other, more important issues. Because of this, the membership has suffered the loss of precious time while the ABP dealt with this internal organizational problem.

All is not lost, however. This in-fighting brought to light, again, the impossibility of BASE jumpers ever being able to organize and work together on equal footing with one another to launch a successful attempt at access.
So, in response, the ABP founder decided to retire the ad hoc board of directors (who were originally invited by the founder to work together on this process) and instead create an Advisory Council, to which many of the former ad hoc directors will be invited for their knowledge, experience and demonstrated ability to work together for the betterment of the organization, should they so desire. The Advisory Council will be just that - advisory in nature – and thus we will be able to minimize non-productive internal frictions.

The ABP feels that a structure that establishes a clear chain of command will ultimately be the only way to maintain the integrity of the organization and result in fruitful access efforts. In simple terms, having everyone on equal footing within any BASE-related organization will never succeed, and if the ABP had persisted in following that model, it would become yet one more failed attempt in a long line of failed attempts to organize. This action was taken to secure the organization for its members.

That said, should any current members not agree that this is the direction the ABP should go, we would invite comments and ideas on how to better handle this situation now and in the future. Further, should any of you disagree with the above changes please keep your official ABP t-shirts as a token of our appreciation for your initial trust in the organization, and surrender your ABP membership card by mailing it to the official ABP address printed on its reverse side. The membership numbers of the cards returned will be recycled. Please include a self-addressed, stamped envelope where you would like to have your pro-rated membership fee returned.

Thank you for your patience and this will be our final public comment on this matter: We are now going back to get back to the business at hand:
fighting on behalf of our members and backcountry parachutists at large for fair access and responsible use, worldwide.

Robin Heid, founder
Gardner Sapp, executive director
Jason Dawson, legislative director

LOL! This reminds me too much of Frasier and Niles' wine club. Have fun boys. Now play nice.

So ABP cans the lot of them? Wouldn't it have been more effective to request the offending parties resignations? Leaving the organization with a semblence of credibility instead of this apparent train wreck?

I appreciate the offer for a pro-rated refund of my membership dues, but I want you to keep the money. Spend it wisely.

Sincerely,

Teresa Colaluca
ABPG12

The "herding cats" analogy was applied to skydivers before base jumpers existed.

And yet, skydivers, for ill or nil, have USPA.

There is no doubt that USPA is flawed, but its accomplishments are many more than those for which the organization is given credit. Furthermore, said accomplishments are the result of the hard work of cats who would not be herded but who did see a need to work for the common good, "common good" being defined as "keeping skydivers jumping."

So...

First off, everyone needs to decide what the goal is. Then everyone needs to work toward the goal, without regard for personalities and minutia.

It is not difficult to set up a non-profit foundation. It is possible to put together a group of people with a common goal and have that goal come to fruition, if everyone involved concentrates on the goal. If everyone agrees that legal access is the issue, then stop fucking around and do something positive. By this, I do not mean reverting to the 60s. The hippies did not stop the war in Vietnam, after all. It is far more likely that they helped extend it by a year or two, just because the radicals pissed off so many who otherwise would have been on their side. You cannot beat the system, so you're going to have to learn to use it if you intend to win what is a bureaucrats' game.


That being said, this is my singular comment on the statement made by the Alliance:

Such a bunch of self-serving, posturing bullshit I expect to find tacked into the correspondence section of a pre-litigation file, and even occasionally in a badly-written brief. In that context, it doesn't bother me in the least, because it's built into the legal system, but reading it here on this board in connection with base makes me gag.

rl

Let me guess.... Marta was threatening to quit unless Jimmy was given the boot.

j/k J&M... nothin but love.

I hope when the crack wears off you will relize that Europe could and never will give a shit what you American people think... For whatever its worth...and for the poor souls who send you money...you need to start worrying about your own backyard before you worry about someone else's that does not have your problems of access...

Stating that you cannot get base jumpers to get together for a greater good shows me you do not have the insite to do just that...

It's no wonder that my only goals to jump are to jump in europe ..please stay out of there before you fuck my chances up of one day stepping off exit #6....

Sorry, but you are screwing with my future plans...

How is that?

Also; Europe is facing the same battles as the US is. It's more legal now, but that's because of the hard work that people have put into it, not because of this imaginary different mindset that in reality doesn't exist.

I can't believe anyone is still gullible enough to get involved in ANY venture involving RH......??????

Sorry....but it floors me.....

Thats true...but the difference is that they are still jumping exit #6 the day after a fatality and when is the last time they jumped El Cap..... They state they are fighting for worldwide access when they cant even fix there own access problems.It's the art of "don't try to fix something thats not broken"...
If you can gain access to El Cap again then you have shown you have abilities to do good elsewhere. They also state in a letter that Utah is first on there list. Whats the plan there. they have access in sites there.. Maybe i am wrong ...but from what i have read...something aint right in the henhouse...

....and, uh, Mr Vandev, what is the name and location of your home DZ?

In anyevent, the APB is trying to help.

and whats yours if it really matters that much....

I didn't say they werent trying to help...i thought it a setback that 1, they are not going to represent the base jumping community as a whole. 2, they cant seem to get the community together as a hole which is what a Alliance is suppose to be. Different people with the same goals in mind working togather for the "Greater Good"...

Something just does not seem right ...just my opinion....Thats why we have this forum to share opinions and information...Right??

That is because you do not make the common mistake of equating charm, wit and intelligence with having a conscience.

It's an easy trap in which to fall. Robin has many of the attributes required of a leader, but he lacks the character and substance that are required to go the distance. Unfortunately, up until now, few have learned the lessons of those who came before them, because it is human nature to blame not the perp, but the victim.

Tragic, that.

rl

I agree with you in a way, it is disconcerting that they don't acknowledge BASE jumpers directly. But I serisouly think it is on purpose that they are doing that. I think that they think they need to distance themselves to make any progress. And god forbid they do make anyprogress, then we might reep some of the benifits. I for one want tp see where this goes.

First off, I don't BASE yet, but I am a member of ABP so I do believe I have a small say.

Vandev, unwad your panties. ABP made it clear that the primary focus is US national parks and that worldwide efforts come only after all of the local issues have been resolved. In addition, so far the worldwide definition only includes Canada and Australia so your precious Europe is safe.

I don't think it matters whether or not you agree with administrative changes or with leadership, bottom line is there is finally a formal organization that is working to expand legal BASE jumping. Every jumper should be supporting the effort, and as I've heard from what happened this month in Utah things have gotten off to a decent start. I wish I could have been at the meeting but I was detained at a nearby Air Force Base.

Bottom line is way too many people are whining instead of trying to help. That's just what I've seen so far from my point of view.

ding ding we have a winner!!!!

Nobody can. Have you seen what kind of personalities are attracted to BASE? At any rate, we should commend the ABP on coming as far as they have.


Only if it was called the Alliance of BASE Jumpers, which it isn't. Given that there was no prior movement in the backcountry niche, I feel they had a right to call themselves the alliance of backcountry parachutists. The second they did that though, the right turned into a plight. Now that they have alienated part of the backcountry group, they better make sure they accomplish their goals, or prepare for a waterfall of critisism.

You could be right....but not about my panties....I go commando....

Yes to some extent....and i dont want to compare but it reminds me of the dropzone or the surf line up at rincon...Alot of different personalities all with the same love of what they are doing....

And hey....look at the Woman of base calander....thats a start for world peace...

How are we supposed to learn those lessons if the person doesn't come with a manual? When the ABP was formed, I didn't see anybody come up with a post that explained why Robin wouldn't be the right person to head up this venture.

Commenting on somebody else's personality traits without substantiating those is poor form. Since I generally trust your opinion, I do consider it. Nonetheless I would like to see some backup. Feel free to PM me.

Meanwhile, I would recommend slightly rewording your post in less assertive terms. Perhaps something along the following lines: "My personal experience with said person in the past have led me to believe that he lacks certain traits required to handle the task at hand and live up to expectations. Feel free to PM me for more details, and don't hesitate to contact said person for the other side of the story."

Goddamn, I should go in politics.

In fairness, I feel like I did what I could to help, and was told that my contributions were not desired. I don't think the ABP actually wants people to try to help--hence the new, streamlined organization.

I'll vote for ya.....

That's my fault. I removed a discussion along those lines. I didn't want the forum to get bogged down into a rehashing of Robin's historical sins. If you search the BLiNC archives, you can find that issue done over and over.

Not your fault. You made the right decision. If people like yourself, several manufacturers and other experienced and well-known BASE jumpers decide to be in the board of directors, that shows a vote of confidence that is big enough that I can see past whatever Robin's past is and join the ABP.

Whether or not that may have been a mistake remains to be seen.

In the meanwhile, the ABP is still fighting for a good cause and not necessarily harming it. While we would probably be more effective in unison, we just have to accept our differences and keep focused on the finish line, instead of our internal turmoil.

Less thinking, more jumping. To think that I of all people would say that some day...

There are those who fear that Robin's relationship with Skydiving Magazine makes him a danger to their reputation. This is not true--neither Mike nor Sue would allow themselves to be used in anyone's personal vendetta--but it zips many lips.


That's the problem, Jaap. Everyone wants to believe that there are two sides to a story, but there is a singular instance in which there is not.

My personal experience of Robin is, in large measure, that of a charming, witty, warm, intelligent and discerning conversationalist and writer (as long as he sticks to non-fiction). He also has a nice laugh. It bugs me to say that, but fair is fair. And based on that alone--even considering the upshot of the whole thing and even though I haven't been on speaking terms with him for 7 or 8 years--I'd have sent in my hundred bucks a long time ago.

Robin's history in base and in skydiving, however, is another matter altogether, and although those stories are told in different places by different people, they are all the same story--one of betrayal, small and large. In every way possible, going all the way back to his roots in the sport, Robin has betrayed the people who have called him friend.

Hugs and knives-in-the-back,
rl

P.S. PM follows as soon as I get this cramp out of my hand.

And some on the BOD don't get along. As a matter of fact there are law suits and such between BOD members. Some BOD members don't run USPA member dropzones.

YET, the organization still exists and promotes skydiving quite well.

If the ABP is really committed to increased access as they indicate then I'm still behind there goal. If this turns out to be a money or control issue then their stated goal is not the true goal. If it is a "separation of church and state" type issue, where it is spoken that they are separate but one influences the other, then I also do not agree with the direction they are going.

I think the only way we will know for sure is through their future actions. It appears to me some of the most influential people in BASE have just been distanced from this organization...

Utah State Parks are not necessarily legal, BLM on the other hand is. There was recently a meeting involving BASE in Utah's State Parks. What happened with that meeting? Is this the real root of the problem?

I doubt it. The meeting went fairly well. Although, seeing that the ABP has removed the BOD member resident in Utah, as well as one of the two representatives who attended that meeting, I can see why you might think that.

I'll be curiously watching (from the sidelines) to see how the Utah issue works out.

I think most us tried to forget Robin's past when we agreed to join the ABP, but he's just the same old Robin (the one that was chased into hiding from the forums many years ago). He does occasionally make an appearance as "TheAlliance" or "base194@yahoo.com" (if you haven't heard THAT story yet).

Robin terminated the ABP because several BOD members wanted immediate elections - elections that would have removed him from the ABP.

I will never again support any venture that includes Robin Heid. After a year of hard work designing 98% of the website myself, assisting with the code for the letter writing system, hosting the website for free on my server, and countless hours of research and communication, many of us are left scratching our heads. Regardless of this setback, I will continue to work to open our National Parks to BASE jumping until I'm too old to jump.

In closing, the following are the written words from a park ranger:

We arrested him in Yosemite for jumping in the late 1970's before it was even called BASE. He poses as a writer for Skydiving, and has written frequent articles for the magazine in the past, but he is the enemy. He is extremely contentious in the BASE world; many of them hate him. In the past he was highly critical of other BASE jumpers, being outright rude in his bulletin board postings. He frequently tried to post anonymously, but his style was usually recognized right away and he was usually ostracized by the other posters.

I wasnt pointing fingers. Hell you have done more than most of us will ever do Tom.

What is stopping youand the rest of the bunch starting up another organization? Pros, Cons?

Tom,

Leave this thread but see if you can get folks here to have a discussion about the ABP without Robin Heid becoming the topic. I know that's not going to be easy and the ABP discussion is relevant at this time, but let's keep the conversation focussed on the right things.