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Hi,

does Lauterbrunnen have any sites that are suitable for terminal beginners?

What about the Italian big wall? I've heard conflicting reports. Some say it's a great and easy wall, but others (and Nick's list) contradict this.

Trying to plan a Europe trip this fall, and I won't be able to get to Norway. Are there any other good beginner sites I'm overlooking? I'm mostly looking for the high stuff.

PM if you have to get into site details.

Thanks,

Jaap

visit the UK whilst in Europe mate, always a bed and breakfast for you here..............

sorry cant help with terminal here, but I am sure some of the lower stuff will grab your interest..........

ITW has teeth, dangerous winds to the un-educated, rock drop is deceptive, a near landing area and a far landing area with not many easy outs in between.

How raw is this beginner of which you speak?

as sais ALL slider up is dangerus dude

Anyway ill work hard to convince you to pay me a visit in DK,hell i might even climb 500´whith you if you want a high one

Hold on to your hat

About the Italian wall,whith out have been there(as its slider up) i were told it aint a good begginers site...


bring your laser

I'm not sure what raw means in this context, but he is a beginner with only 57 slider down jumps and zero terminal jumps. He has not nearly enough skydive experience to be a base jumper and his never ending optimism and faith in body-armour will one day get him into trouble. His only redeeming quality is that he loves hiking so walking down is never a problem.

I would advice all Europeans to stay away from this guy unless you have a ten foot pole.

Huh, what?


I already told Nikolaj I would come flik something with you guys when I'm in Europe. Looking forward to it!

Yellow is often used as the wall for beginners. Getting to the last meter of the exit could be challenging but the wall is adequate.

jerome

Jaap,

I think you'll be fine in Italy. Do that first, and then decide if you're comfortable enough to move to the (lower, more challenging) Swiss jumps.

The 3rd "standard" stop on that trip is in France. Next time you're down here I can sit down with a road map and show you a good 2 week loop.

I'm a bit tired and might be getting this wrong but are we talking about the same terminal wall in italy ? I'd be interested to know how you Tom came up with a decision to give that advice to a guy who stated that he has 0 terminal jumps and very little skydiving experience and we are talking about the wall that has "a plaque at the launch point, not so much to memorialize the dead, but to forewarn the living that ITW is an advanced skills level BASE jump." ? So basically you are advicing a beginner to go to a advanced skills spot ? I've never been to that wall in italy myself but many have said that even though the full alti is huge the rock drop isn't that high on that wall. As James said the winds are tricky too and many of my friends don't consider it to be suitable for beginners.

My personal knowledge and evaluation of his current jumping skills. I taught his FJC, I've jumped with him on multiple occasions since then.

I'm not just basing this on the info he gave out on this forum, in other words.

Edit to add: I've also jumped that site multiple times, so I've got an idea of what the difficulties are, along with what his skill set is.

Edit to add also: This is not meant as a general recommendation for any other person or any other set of sites. My comment was particularly directed at Jaap, and particularly at one specific site.

Not at all, I appreciate these comments.


In Tom's defense, he probably would be the best judge of my base skills or lack thereof.


180 skydives; 40 with my base canopy. 80 dedicated to tracking.


Yeah, that's precisely what I am wondering about as well. After the popular Norwegion wall, the Italian wall is the deadliest wall on Nick's list.


Do you know of any other good beginner spots in Europe, besides Norway?

Thanks!

Jaap

i dont know any good once but alot of bad once

personaly i recomend and chose for beginners first terminal jumps the ITTW.
but only with somebody who has experiance with the spot and the wind situation at that wall.!
watch for the self regulation codes posted on the italian site.
but to say when a jumper is ready for the first terminal is another thing.it depends on skill level more than the number of jumps.
switzerland no.
take care
hannes

That was exactly what I thought, thanks for the clarification Tom.

I made my first terminal jump from ITTW. Would be the whole different situation if I'd went there alone (zero experiences in wind, landing options...), but I had bunch of experience jumpers behind my back and now I have 14 jumps off it.
I'd suggest that you write when you'll be there and ask if there are any of the more experienced guys there at the time to PM you...
Unclecharlie is almost cooked and fried there every free weekend ... Ups, did I say sth wrong?

FYI: Before my first jumps from this great wall, I had 8 slider-up jumps from S in Croatia...

Yeah, just wanted to say that my post wasn't about underestimating or bashing your skills in base or skydiving, just wanted to hear Tom's views on how he came up with his recommendation.


I take it that we are still talking about high walls here ? Sorry but I'm not an expert on European sites, I myself made my first jumps on popular wall in Norway and since then I've been jumping in the famous valley in Switzerland and the pretty well known wall in France and that's about it. The valley in swiss has nice walls and as somebody said in this thread the YO is probably the "easiest" jump there. But regarding the valley I'd say contact the swiss base association (info@subterminal.ch), they'll have the best knowledge about it and it's suitability to you.

I would rather have that people (myself included) underestimate my skill than overestimate it; it'll keep me alive longer. So no worries.


Yeah, for sure. I have no intention of jumping anything anywhere without connecting with the locals. At this point I was just trying to get information so I can design my travel itinary.

Thanks everybody,

Jaap

 

FYI: Before my first jumps from this great wall, I had 8 slider-up jumps from S in Croatia...
kiki i think you mean slider down
because if not you have some balls
lp,
luka

DEXTER READ THIS!!!
i tell you.im not ready.. often my wife says i have no skills what so ever.. please dont hurt me

Hannes,the above is not to take the p!ss on you,but at Dexter who thinks that i should get more slider ups in

Hey dude, I'm not the only one who wants to put you off some cool shit. Too late. You're already fucked!

You are in for it now! (((crazy lunatic cackle)))

the trip starts in 20 mins from now...

No i heard people try to through me off 200ish stuff aswell

nah will be cool learning new stuff.. but ill let you test it first


how do you regonice me in the airport? you wont miss us i can tell... gonna be a show..he he

hold on to your hat bro...

Awesome. Be safe in your travels. I will c-ya at the airport! Hope your rigs are packed

they sure are,slider off as i have no slider as i leave home,peter bring one...

c ya "soon" bro(like 15 hours from now i guess he he)

get some sleep you´ll need it

Khmm, you're right ... sorry for this - yes, slider down (you know us women - always want to have things up )

Agree with James here. Personnally had some really hairy situtations at the ITW where I'm happy to be alive...

Two problems I see there:
- Underestimation of the jump
- Winds

LB is ok to do your first jumps (did my very first jumps there), but I stronly suggest to do slider-down jumps first (there are some exits suitable for this). This is to train your eyes (often this point doesn't get trained enough) and to get used to the landing.

But I agree with some on this thread, some spots require bomb-proof exits, good tracking combined with enough eye-perception and a little bit of cold-blood, hence are not suitable for low-timers!!!

We (euros) all began jumping here I guess, and until last week (where I felt a bit lost) my jumping always involved a wall behing my neck...

I think there is some very good information here for us less or no experienced ones. I see a division of people on which sites they recommend for first terminal or E jumps as there prefrence. But seems to be division on either Norway or ITTW as one and Swiss as another. It looks as if it's undecided by the masses as to which. I am intrested also as to which the masses suggest as a first big wall jump. The more i read the slower i want to take it.

Thanks all for the information, Chris

> I'm a bit tired and might be getting this wrong but are we talking about the same terminal wall in italy ?
Well said indeed. Italian terminal wall can be "easy", provided you go and jump there with the following conditons:
1) under proper meteo/wind conditions (=jump with a local)
2) don't do "stupid" things (no offence to the fallen, "stupid" here means "something you are not trained/not prepared/not fit to do (yet))
3) be prepared to do a good 45° exit in an "empty" environment (when on "designated" exit point, you have no close reference, only very far mountains on the skyline overthere)
4) properly consider that the close landing area is jolly frightening indeed (you know rocks/boulders/pleasant stuff all over the place/nearby the place.....?) and the (far) designated landing area has got not other "alternate landing area" in between (if you don't consider few square meters of gap between the forest trees here and there)
5) consider again that even if you are a foreigner and you end up with the "Oh, yes, I travelled so many km's that a small wind is NOT going to stop me" attitude, Italian terminal wall can bite your àss very, very badly

Few notes: don't think that you go to a terminal wall and you do your best track at the very first jump, the scene is quite intimidating and only about only 50% of first time jumpers there succeeded in doing a hell of a track, the remaining 50% either did just a decent track or just a box.
Even if there is "light" wind but if you go jolly low on opening, if you don't make it to the designated landing area, and you discover it mid way, they become bitter c o c k s, as we say in our country, few jumpers has left few bones breakage there (myself included, even if very, very minor).

I've edited the name of the Italian terminal wall in a couple of posts in this thread.

I did my first terminal jump at Norway, I had around 30 BASE jumps and had jumped solid objects before (300ft range), my first terminal cliff jump terrified me. I had not skydived for over a year and I was worried about tracking, The only thing I would say is that my inexperience led me to not really make decent tracking movement until about 8 seconds, which was ok"ish" on the Norway wall, but lower walls with a need to track would have been a little more intense for me.........

Terminal wall jumping is a different beast, just approach it with the same respect as it deserves........

go do some skydives to practice tracking to make sure you are happy about your position, it will make you feel (a little) better on the edge............

> I am intrested also as to which the masses suggest as a first big wall jump
Several terminal walls CAN be suitable for a first terminal jump.
NO TERMINAL WALL is easy for a first terminal jump.
Do you get the point?
A terminal wall is on a big mountain, there are a lot of rocks underneath, sometimes the landing is close (to vertical of exit), sometimes not, there can be pieces of rock/pillars/towers "popping out" in freefall if you do not know where you are going, there can be winds that (if you jump on your own) can be fatal to you.
Shall I have to continue?
Together with experienced (of the site) jumpers, a first terminal jumper can find himself/herslef at his/her own ease jumping there, but the right meteo conditions can be evaluated suitable for a first jump off there only by the experienced.
We had quite a number of close calls here at our terminal wall because jumpers (even experienced ones) jumped in the wrong conditions, so, Italian terminal wall can be easy, Italian terminal wall can be terrible, depends on how you approach it.

I have personally tested Jaap on this one. The guy's got mad skillz when it comes to not jumping.

... But he still squeals like a little girl.

To be honest with everyone, I am scared about jumping the IT terminal wall! Why? although I can exit and jump low objects, jumping something like the MB wall is a different beast...... I have recently heard about some people going there and thinking it was safe to try out their first gainers.................... apparently it could have turned VERY ugly..................

big walls dont mean big safety...............

dont think like a skydiver.................. height means bollocks all in BASE................... 200ft or 2000ft, its still as fucking dangerous!



i will get my coat................

And I might be back soon for some more not-jumping when the RB guys visit. Are those bears gone yet?


Hey! That water was cold, ok? Tsssssk, the things I do for your camera entertainment.

Jaap, you are afraid of smokey the bear? oh geeze... We have a softey in the house... Cleanup on on isle 5

ITTW is just fine for jumper you asked. As long there is some experience jumper along w the student is fine. There is no wall or terminal jump site which can give you 100% safety. Therefore don't make the ''drama'' out of the ITTW place or any other slider up terminal jump.
Yes , people were died there, and also died on other terminal jump places, but we know why, so all we need to do, is to be mature, keep in mind and teach the students to follow the common sense and rules set for ITTW or any othe place we jumping off.

Each place has some difficulties we need to deal with so... be mature and do it!!!

You go to N#1, !slider-down! (this exit got forgotten, a lot of newer ones don't know it), 1s delay, you will have about 60m (feet??) behind your back. If this is not enough to turn around the canopy, you're probably at the wrong place...

At SB, you event have some meters more, but since jumping there isn't good idea.

At YO, the overhang is to the bottom of the face. (!!Remember, this doesn't apply to the ramp. My recommendation there is: don't do the ramp!!) If you slide back in a box position, you're at the wrong place again...

I don't give more details here, PM if you need.

[.. be mature and do it!!! ]

That is sage advice from one of the wisest voices in the sport.

Seriously people, ease off on the drama. Every site is potentially dangerous. Most sites can be jumped responsibly. Go with someone who knows the site and who you know you can trust, and that's that.

I know several jumpers who have made their first Terminal jumps on the sites mentioned above (YO and ITW) and I know people who have made their first BASE jumps ever at those sites.

I did my first terminal BASE at the Italian wall and it was a little intimidating to be honest. A local (who had 150 jumps just at this site) took me to the top and said take a 7-8 second delay since this was my first big wall experience. Opening in that range should put you 35-40 meters away from the wall on opening. The second after realizing I had a good canopy over my head, I looked behind me and he was right. Just be aware of the winds and it helps to have communication on the ground.

Nobody at the restaurant spoke English when I was there last year but that may be different now. Learning a little Italian could not hurt, especially when ordering that magnificent food.

Have fun and be safe.

I've noticed something in reading all the above. It's obvious that a dynamic has changed in this sport. With things like wind and protrusions notwithstanding, there is much more concern about terminal BASE jumps then there used to be. It's actually a good thing and it shows we are growing our own. But it underscores the fact new BASE jumpers don't necessarily come from the ranks of seriously experienced skydivers anymore. (This isn't something I just realized, but this thread really brings it home).

The heyday of my BASE career was all about how to launch from ever lower altitudes and to us anything terminal was a picnic. But, like I said this is a good thing. In fact if there never was a sport called skydiving, and we were all homegrown earth jumpers, we'd probably be further advanced than we are now . . .

NickD
BASE 194

[Go with someone who knows the site and who you know you can trust, and that's that. ]



Definitely not sage advice there...

As a rare poster on these forums, I must chime in here. Everyone has their own opinions and experiences, and all of us know people who "have done" many things, and that does not make it correct or smart.

This post is in response to the original question about LB for beginners, I'll leave the ITTW to others more experienced there. There have been some good posts about the potential dangers of this jewel. These forums are read by many non basers and aspiring basers, to imply that LB is a fine place to learn is doing a great disservice to the CH community, as well as all those that enjoy the legal jumps in the valley.

Do you need hundreds of jumps to be safe there? No. What you do need is some solid base training and the confidence that you can perform a sub-terminal track with the correct delay for the exit point. Sure you can start with some slider down, but this will do little to prepare you for the next one with a slider, except to show you what it looks like over the edge and maybe calm the jitters a bit. This is not just advice to keep the area open, it's going to help you avoid the helicopter rides and possibly a guest appearance on Nick's list.

I certainly hope this is not too much "drama" for you. People getting into the sport of base jumping don't need to be stroked and told everything will be fine. They should fully understand all the potential dangers involved and feel confident that they are personally ready to accept these risks, regardless how much experience the guy/gal standing next to them has. Is trusting a mentor like clicking ruby slippers together? Robi was right, be mature. There's much to this maturity thing.

Hey Jaap, you asked for opinions, short answer, don't start in CH. Have a great trip.

Rob

This is great stuff...All us nubees or low experience jumpers should take to heart....well....to brain actually....

You are right, but you can learn allot more doing tracking dives from a plane than for a few seconds off a object. I would bet the 500 or so tracking dives could save your ass when needed...

Thanks for the "good information"..

Stay safe all, chris

Would clothing ie. tracking pants jackets make a difference on your first terminal jumps. Say for instance you are wearing a baggy jacket and maybe tight or short pants. would this make worse a head high...ie back into the wall by fighting your wind resistant top layer? That would go also for baggy tracking pants that could induce head down as you are fighting leg wind resistance. I would think that this would make a difference. would love to here some prospectives on this for first time terminal jumps...

Thanks, chris

I am of the opinion that a non-restrictive tracking suit (like the Phoenix Fly tracking suit) would be a great option for anyone's first terminal jumps. Being sure that you do some skydives on it first to understand how the track feels different, I don't really see a downside on launch or opening, and I see some major positives in terms of getting away from the object, especially if you take some time getting into a good track, or if your track isn't quite perfect (both reasonable possibilities since you'll be somewhat taken with other things on your first terminal jump).

agreed......