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What the hell is "the private forum"?
~J

keep up man!! Its regarding the captain protest jump idea.

nic

ur back in the states yeah?

Here's what it is: it's a polarizing, divisive idea that goes against many of the ideals that I feel underpin this sport and that make it what it is.

 

It's divisive because it draws hard lines (for instance, "You're allowed in" or "You're not") between one group and another. Over here, we have BASE jumpers. Over there, rangers and anybody who might tell them something-or-other. It acts to build those boundaries beyond their usual significance.

I'm not sure there's room to debate whether or not it's divisive -- just whether or not that's a problem.

For my part, I'm not sure divisive is ever a good thing. I think that sucks about this endeavor -- certainly it makes the whole thing seem a little childish. On the other hand, 150 people off of one object would be pretty spectacular. So whatever.

 

the NPS will likely continue to view BASE jumpers in aggregate, not individually.

so if the protest works, we all win.
but if it fails, it puts all of us further from our goal.
(and potentially kill any other avenue...)

the entire community has a stake, but the decisions are restricted to a comparative few.

the project is a high risk/high reward endeavor. is there even a precedent for success? a previous protest that guides the way?

what's more likely, success? or another stain on our public record?

yup, I'd say that makes it divisive.

 

No worries -- wasn't referring to your earlier post.


I guess that's where I see the problem. My experience has been that whenever I play "us and them" for any purpose, I wind up forced to classify somebody as "them" who I never really intended to isolate. Sometimes hurts others, always hurts me. Your mileage may vary.

I agree that we're not there yet. I just think that, in that sense, this is a step in the wrong direction.

 

Nah, on second thought I guess this isn't at all divisive.

Not helpful and very alienating.


Their error is still your problem when they treat you as part of a whole rather than as an individual.


It's either a community or it's a loose cannon. How it's perceived depends on the process of implementation.

Pick one.

rl

 

I'm quite certain that's not it at all. My point is that it doesn't matter at all who "us" and "them" are, or for what reasons one plays the game. This sort of division of the world has always, in my experience, ultimately been a mistake.

Still, nobody is proposing anything I would describe as unethical. So, my (now excessively restated) reservations aside, best of luck to everybody involved. As I said above, if this goes it'll certainly be spectacular.

oh, if this were true...

but it's not. the actions of the individual impact the entire community. if not, there would be no regular discussion of BASE ethics, no thread on if a mentor should assume responsibility for the decisions of their pupils, less criticism of Felix, no colorful stories of self-policing, and no one would cite Nick's list.

yes, I'd like to take full responsibility for all my actions. it is the proper thing to do. then I'd only need consider my own narrow self-interests.

very idealistic and unrealistic.

What happens after this "Protest" if the NPS decides that they are completly fed up with the BASE jumper issue and enact policies that further crack down on BASE on their lands? There is precident on this with in the Off-road groups on BLM lands. My understanding of the issue there was that a small group of off-roaders decided that they did not want to be contained in the area that the BLM set aside for them and went off roading off trails. The BLM got fed up and just elimiated off roading for the entire local area (hikers considered it a victory in getting the lands back). The actions of just a small group ended up effecting the possibilites for the rest of the population.

Since this is a protest jump I would assume that there is no need to flee since you are protesting the system and will be landing and putting your hands out waiting for the handcuffs, or is this more of an organized load in shich if you are able to run then it was successful?

Kinda hard to crack down further on something that is already 100% illegal in all National Parks without a permit.

You must also understand that a park superintendant cannot simply issue you a permit, even if he's cool with you jumping. He first has to obtain a waiver to the 2001 NPS Management Policy (8.2.2.7) that states "BASE is not an appropriate activity in a National Park". The waiver must come from Washington, as was done for Bridge Day back in 2002. And when they issued the Bridge Day 10-year waiver, they were very careful in writing that this is a special one day a year event.

Its a lot easier to increase fines, jail time, etc if you have people that keep reminding them that its going on under their nose and they need to become even more involved to prevent it. BLM and the NPS work together on alot of issues and policies too, if you rock the boat too much on one side the waves might make it to the otherside and you'll feel the fall out on areas that are currently "Legal".

Please explain to me:
How can the NPS in Yosemite crack down any MORE than 100% unmitigated proscription of BASE jumping and 100% ingnoring the needs of BASE jumpers?

All normal methods to get them to change have failed, and I would like to jump there legally in my lifetime, not my grandchildrens.



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The few are not making decisions for the many. The few are choosing for themselves.

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What happens after this "Protest" if the NPS decides that they are completly fed up with the BASE jumper issue and enact policies that further crack down on BASE on their lands? There is precident on this with in the Off-road groups on BLM lands. My understanding of the issue there was that a small group of off-roaders decided that they did not want to be contained in the area that the BLM set aside for them and went off roading off trails. The BLM got fed up and just elimiated off roading for the entire local area (hikers considered it a victory in getting the lands back). The actions of just a small group ended up effecting the possibilites for the rest of the population.

Since this is a protest jump I would assume that there is no need to flee since you are protesting the system and will be landing and putting your hands out waiting for the handcuffs, or is this more of an organized load in shich if you are able to run then it was successful?

If you can't kill yourself doing it, its not a sport... its a game.

can you please elaborate?
have you attended any NPS meetings?
have you commented on proposed NPS rules?
have you contacted your congressional delegation?
have you circulated petitions amongst your friends & coworkers?
have you met with anyone from "the other side" to learn their views?
have you tried to incorporate their opinions in a proposal?
have you participated in a peaceful, non-jumping protest?
have you wandered a park discussing the issues with visitors AND staff?

remember, no one in government really wants to do anything, or take responsibility. and none wish to do ANYTHING quickly...

Thanks!

Agreed on the first part; disagreed on the second.

I'm curious which of the, "All normal methods..." you describe have actually been tried???

As far as I know, there has never been a unified congressional lobby for change, until now. As far as I know, no one - and no organization - has yet put forth a coordinated effort to employ the normal methods by which a citizen or group normally goes about effecting change: grassroots efforts to lobby congressional representatives; careful watch-dogging of agency movements and their actions to change rules and regulations in a direction NOT in our favor; putting pressure where pressure is necessary; availing ourselves to - and involving ourselves in - planning processes whereby we are included as a user group rather than excluded because of our absense or laxity; ultimately, there has never been an organized systematic and orchestrated plan of action.

Sure, there have been a few attempts at change by what amount to extraordinary means. Namely, a civil disobedience jump gone wrong, a few defended court cases which resulted in still more confusion and muddied waters for everyone concerned... I'm sure the list goes on and on.

As has already been mentioned, civil disobedience typically is a last-resort tactic that comes only after a long concerted effort to change things by normal means has failed. It could take a lifetime to reach a point before such civil disobedience would be considered effective and appropriate.

Nevertheless, the proper channels have not been tried until now. These things take time and patience is truly a virtue in such regard. Arguably, we've waited entirely too long for our day to come. On the other hand, as a user group, we've been flailing about for a quarter century. Herding cats is never easy and, frankly, herding BASE jumpers is harder still. It is time to get organized and get on board. I believe one such group will rise to the challenge and be an organization for change that will eventually come; I'll leave it to everyone else to make that determination for themselves. Our resolve must be tempered with patience, and our actions must be carefully planned and our intentions sure. I know where I have placed my faith and trust, and I know where I and others are doing the difficult work to see success where others have failed.

-Gardner

Gardner,
just wondering if anyone who has sent the letters out from your site have received a response from anyone in the government yet.

I sent mine and have not heard anything.... still waiting

cya,
Jason

Same here, no response, yet. I assume they might have a backlog of letters that they answer though.

I've received 2 responses. I know that several other people have, as well.

 

I received one response in the form of a generic letter.

I got a letter that was specifically tailored to respond to mine. I know this because my wife used the ABP letter system and got a "stock" letter. My ABP letter was a little more customized, and I got back a "stock" letter, then a week or so later, got another "customized" response (in which the term "BASE" was used, despite the fact I hadn't used it anywhere in my letters). It was still pretty much political yammering, but at least it was on-topic, and showed that someone had actually read the thing and composed a couple paragraphs just for me.

I have seen one quite positive response, via letter, but as it was not my letter, the details aren't really mine to share.

In general, it seems like the folks from less populous states are getting more personalized responses, which makes sense, I suppose.

I received a letter from the congressman I wrote regarding legalization of BASE jumping in NP's. He basically said it's illegal and this has been upheld in several court cases. He said he appreciated my passion and would consider my comments should this matter ever come before the House. I wrote this letter using the congressman's web page. It took less than 2 months to receive a response.

Regarding the letters I wrote through the ABP, I have received no response. It's been almost 4 months.

Instead of calling it a protest jump. Why not call it a record attempt or similar. At least it is not as confronting and you can always then call it a protest if that does not work. Once you have precedence it will be easier to get other permits.

Another option is a funraising jump. You could try to put it in a context that they would sound like heartless souls to say no.

Now someone is thinking....do a make a wish foundation chairty jump. Get corporate sponsers,famous people or casinos to raise money for the terminaly ill kids...

everyone wins.....

Just to add. I beleive that if you do such a jump you really need to have the correct documentation to look like you are not just a bunch of yobbos. Keeping in mind try to avoid documenting in such a way you put your foot in it or look like collaberation, ask the lawyers. Make people sign weivers (even if you assign everyone a number). Also set rules and try your best to keep it safe. Some compromises could be made (like no aerials) so that the nps think you are making an effort. Of course things like making sure a first aid kit and someone trained is available etc.. You might want to consider some of this even if it is a protest jump. Might make it look better if they arrest you. Hard for them to say you were trying to harm yourself when you made every effort. Its all about perceptions.

Because it's easier to get a special use permit when you invoke a 1st Amendment right. If you look at NPS guidelines, they have less wiggle room with regards to restricting free speech (although there is plenty of wiggle room regarding the "manner" of free speech).

In the early 80's, people not abiding by these types of compromises was one of the problems. It might be easier to avoid such conflicts by not making any specific compromises at all, and instead saying something like "everyone promises to exercise their best judgment in regards to safety." A "no aerials" rule off a terminal wall is obviously just plain silly, and trying to get people to stick with it would be pretty much impossible.

i think you guys are all wrong having that love forum chat or what ever..but hey if its all about making love to each other you can have it

No im not jalous and i dont want to move to china,ill just have a chat about jumps to be made in the furture by myself

get off each others nervs hug your self and lick your nipples it will make you guys feel much better

PS. could i join just to make sure you dont speak bad about me now