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Hey Y'all,

This jumper does not skydive now and if he did skydive this incident probably wouldn't have happened. Has 90 skydives and hasn't made a skydive in 4-5 years. I was not there but my wife was.

A very current BASE jumper exited off of Wallstreet(rock climbers named it so it should be legal to say here, right Tom) Good body position, opened up with a 120 to the right.

Released the left toggle to turn away from the wall. That didn't work for obvious reasons. So he reached over with his right hand and pulled the left toggle even further.

He hit the wall at that point. Rolled down the wall and landed in a tree. IF the tree wasn't there, lots of broken bones and other wonderful things that we fear!



So again, what do you think about BASE jumpers not skydiving anymore?



On a side note, I heard that this is happening now in Norway, is this true?
If you want to go to Norway, you MUST have 250 skydives or 250 BASE jumps.

Our friend just went to Norway and he just took a BASE 1st jump course and made 80 BASE jumps in 1 month. They told him that you can't jump here unless you have 250....something???

>>So again, what do you think about BASE jumpers not skydiving anymore?<<

Nothing, so long as you know RISERS . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Very True!

How many jumps in the past six months? How many jumps total?


Is there an indication why he didn't go for risers? Was it a conscious decision, inexperience, a poor decision made during panic?


Are you referring to base jumpers starting with very little to no skydives, or are you referring to base jumpers that stop skydiving once they are base jumping?

I'm glad to hear the jumper is doing okay. Do you have any thoughts on how the public perceives legal jumping at Moab these days? There was another incident quite recently, and it only takes a small amount of incidents to jeopardize the fragile nature of base' legal status in Moab.

>>it only takes a small amount of incidents to jeopardize the fragile nature of base' legal status in Moab.<<

Those cliffs have been there for a million years and will be there for a million more. The only thing that will ever stop us jumping them is us . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Quote"How many jumps in the past six months? How many jumps total?"

More than you probably, haha. 40-60 all in Moab, not sure or the exact # since I haven't been jumping myself. He has over 120 Total BASE jumps.

Quote "Is there an indication why he didn't go for risers? Was it a conscious decision, inexperience, a poor decision made during panic?"

All the above. He still thinks that if he would have just grabbed the other toggle, he would missed the wall. I have been telling him that you better get out to the dz and jump your BASE canopy in our rental rig. He says hell no. Says it dangerous. It really pisses me off too. I dont' want to watch another friend die in front of me.

BASE jumpers that stop skydiving after they have BASE experience.

There is this one guy that came out last month. Jumped 170' opened perfect, did nothing afterward, hit the ground and separated his shoulder. The jump gives you 5-6 seconds of canopy time with a PCA.

He did his 100 skydives and then stopped.

The town doesnt even know about this, so no perception there.

People should realize that FJC requirements are just that: FJC requirements. Having enough skydives to do an FJC is not enough skydives to become a well-rounded base jumper.

But I'm doing the pot-kettle thing here, so I'll shut up now...

Thanks for posting the information Clint, I appreciate it.

One last question; this jumper is not yet convinced that risers might have been a better option here? Do you know if the hundred skydives he did had a strong base focus, e.g. practicing rear riser turns, low approaches, etc.?

Is skydive-MOAB still considering to launch a base-focused skydiving course?

By this are you saying he released only the left toggle? so by doing so would have turned the canopy into the wall before it started turning the right way. cause the right was still stowed in half breaks?

saying that i dont know if skydiving would have helped the situation im normally always on rears untill the airspace is clear then unstow my breaks.

That's exactly why it would have helped. If you and i are on a jump and we open with our canopies flying directly towards each other, what do you do? Rear riser into clean air. Same scenario here but replace a jumper with an object. Climb on the rears and find clean air.

Hi Clint

"He thinks". Lets analyse that for a second. He thinks in foresight is a wonderful think - oops, thing. I recommend this to all and sundry. He thinks in hindsight is a bit late although better late than never. If he still thinks AFTER he has messed up that his strategy was correct, then he must learn to open his mind a little more.

Lets go with the theory that "if you do tomorrow what you did today, the result will still be the same". He jumps off tomorrow with all conditions the same, he gives the same input, he reaches over with his other hand to pull the toggle down further (this all takes time to do which could have been spend flying away from the wall), will the outcome be different?

HHHHMmmmm. ??????

"The first step in overcoming a problem is to recognise that a problem exists".

Next we move on to the Simpsons. Ever seen the episode where Lisa does an experiement to test the intelligence and learning abilities of Bart and a Rat. The Rat learns after a few electric shocks not to touch the object anymore. Bart doesn't. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.

Are we there yet?

Lack of currency is an OBVIOUS and PROVEN component in MANY aviation accidents. If you do not believe this is the case or you believe that you are immune to the affects of a lack of currency, then I sincerely hope you recover well from your accident.

Lets not kid ourselves here people. Uncurrent people, FU$CK UP.

You do NOT learn enough in 50 skydives and 20 BASE jumps to fully know what you are doing. Unless you are a very special person. By definition, very special is limited to very few people (we are considering skill only, not how others feel about us ).

1 Set up gear correctly.
2 If inexperienced, use RISERS.
3 Learn to use them in a safe environment, not on your first 180 opening off a cliff.
4 Have a plan and stick to it.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

I don't agree. I believe in Risers over toggles any time, flame away. Slim could have saved few bones if he went for risers and he was very, very experienced when he had his 180.

People don't realize that Moab is not a easy site. Inexperienced jumpers flick it all the time. Some get away, some get away with an inflated ego, some get away with some titanium...

Just my 0.02.

To me this sounds less like a problem with currency, and more like a problem with stubbornness or pride. It sounds like this jumper still thinks his method is correct, in spite of his own experience and advice from more experienced jumpers. This is a problem which more jumps, skydiving or BASE, will not correct.

Michael

It ought to be stowed significantly deeper than half brakes. If you really are set at half brakes, you're pretty much going to hit the object on a serious off heading.

I dunno. As a generalization, I'd say the guys I know with 500+ jumps are a lot more willing to learn (and change their own methods) than the guys I know with 200 jumps. I think that one of the things you learn with experience is that you aren't always right.

I agree that high jump numbers and/or time in the sport tends to make people more receptive. However, this isn't always the case. Humility is not a product of higher jump numbers.

You don't become more receptive because you made it to 500 jumps. You make it to 500 jumps because you have learned to be more receptive.

Michael

I met him in 1989, or so, but I've only run into him at a few Bridge Days since then. He's a cool and interesting guy, a student of Moe Viletto, and he did quite a few jumps with Moe's "hideaway" BASE rigs in the early 1990s.

One jump he did I'll never forget was off a local bridge (not very high and with a bad landing area) from the back of a moving pickup. He is standing on a pneumatic plate that blasted him out of the truck bed. It threw him up and over the rail like he came out of cannon. He fabricated the entire system and I thought it was something we'd all be doing, LOL.

From what I recall he was/is a Hollywood stuntman and to him BASE jumping was just another arrow in his quiver, as was skydiving. Anyway he's an alright guy, and I do remember him keeping his BASE jumping quiet even though publicity might have furthered his Hollywood gigs.

I bring up that last bit as during the same time there was another Hollywood stuntman going around day blazing everything in site . . . two high profile jumps were the long blue bridge near me and the big red one in San Francisco. The one near me was totally out of control (and replayed endlessly on local TV) and the one up north ended with two parachutes out and an object strike. The tar was hot on this guy's heels and what saved him is he stopped BASE jumping . . .

Here's more on the first fellow.

http://www.azcentral.com/...0621parachutist.html

NickD
BASE 194

Isn't this two seperate incidents. There's the CA guys who got hurt yesterday morning jumping in AZ. But this thread is concerning a fellow who jumped in Moab isn't it?

Hi Nick

I am totally a pro riser person. After all, my other nylon and string passion is CRW.

I say "if inexperienced" because of the usual debate riser v toggle.

I am adamant about students learning to use risers, but I think that experienced jumpers can choose their own fate. That comes with the territory of being experienced.

Fact - toggles DOES give a faster response than risers.

Fact - it DOES take longer to grab your toggles than it does your risers (cf your eg). Even for big grab toggles.

Fact - there is a higher probability that you will miss a toggle as opposed to a riser. Why? Because the target area on a toggle is LESS than a riser. Hence it is more difficult to grab a toggle. Not only do you have to target, you have to manouvre your fingers through the loop and lock your fingers in. Couple that with the stress created during a 180 event. Couple that with the experience people have of performing this action under the same level of stress (not many of us get to practice this before it happens, hence virtually all of us are "inexperienced" when we are correcting our first 180). This all adds up to higher likelihood of object strike.

It is absolutely correct that you can train yourself to be more accurate in this action. This is where skydiving and CRW and other parachuting disciplines assist with your development as a BASE jumper.

As usual, just my opinion.

Tom,


Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'faster' here?

Faster as in:

Less elapsed time before a heading change of X degrees?
Fewer horizontal feet travelled forward before a heading change of X degrees?
Both/neither? Something else?

I always find myself wanting to know what people mean by 'faster' in this situation, because in my opinion what is 'faster' (riser or toggle) depends on your definition of 'faster'.

As you said Tom - this is just my opinion. Subject to possible human error and biased perception based on personal experience.

Clarification

<<Fact - toggles DOES give a faster response than risers.>>

Assuming you have correct grips on either riser or toggle the following is evident.
- it takes less force to give the same amount of input on toggles than it does risers. i.e. it takes more effort to pull my risers down 5 inches than it does my toggles. Also, the leverage required for riser inputs makes it more difficult. Depending on your strength, this adds to your control input time.
- aerodynamics: a riser input pulls down a bigger percentage of a canopy than a toggle (surface area). Its affect is more like changing the relative wind angle on one side of a canopy than a straight out turn. Its kind of like the bulldozer affect. The whole rear of the canopy is affectively shaped like a propeller blade and it spins around. Whereas a toggle acts just on the tail and does a more radical job of altering air flow and inducing stall, etc.

From full or partial drive (both toggles busted + pulling down on one), the affect of stall on one side and greater relative drive on the other adds together to speed up the turn. From risers this is slower because both sides still have plenty of forward drive and the stalling affect on one side is less than the other.

It is all a bit different during a BASE opening. I am not 100% sure about the details so the following is just theoretical and open to discussion. I think that most often, people will still have one toggle stowed whilst they are pulling the other one down. On lower jumps with deeper brake settings it means that both sides are closer to the stall. However, the side with toggle input will behave just like in the previous example which will still assist in a more rapid turn.

<<Less elapsed time before a heading change of X degrees?>>

I think yes overall (statistical average) but it will depend on many factors. These factors include wing loadings, brake settings, canopy airfoil design, age & wear and tear of the canopy/suspension lines/brake lines, prevailing weather conditions, yada yada yada.

<<Fewer horizontal feet travelled forward before a heading change of X degrees?>>

This is the mother of all BASE heading questions. How do we minimise this to minimise the chance at wall strike? I would like to add a disclaimer here before I say anything. These are just my opinions and I could be horribly wrong. I am not offering advice and you should do your own research and form your own opinions on your off heading strategies. i.e. its not my fault, tis your fault

Now - lets talk about relative flight. IF you are behind and below another parachutist and heading in the same direction, the best way to catch up is to give rear riser input which will change your angles (realtive wind or attack or whatever). If you are directly below and not behind at all, you give toggle input. If you are high and further behind, you give front riser input. This gives us a bit of a clue as to what happens. I have added more details in the Aerodynamics section of the OzCRW website.

Now, all this becomes a bit more complex in terms of deeper brake settings, etc.

<<I always find myself wanting to know what people mean by 'faster' in this situation, because in my opinion what is 'faster' (riser or toggle) depends on your definition of 'faster'. >>

Too true Tom. In the end, we have opinions based on other opinions, experience, and research/technology currently available. Occasionally we are right, sometime wrong.

What do you wreckon? Am I full of sh it or does some of this make some sense?

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

Tom,

I've seen this many times, and did it myself twice. It's something you can observe going through past Bridge Day videos. A jumper opens using BASE deep brake settings and has a clean 180 (a 180 where you come out of the line twist while opening) and for a second or so the canopy is neither moving forward or back. It's just sitting there. Pull down a rear riser at that point and the canopy will turn 180 degrees almost on a dime. The riser side of the canopy you pull down will start flying backwards. There is no way to do that with toggles. The turn with toggles, because you have to release the brakes, will be much wider and much faster. And both those things blow chunks when the idea is object avoidance. Of course this calls for the perfect brake setting for you canopy size and weight.

If possible spend an hour looking over the rail at Bridge Day. BASE jumpers turn out of 180s quickly and don’t go under the bridge. Skydivers disappear under the bridge and sometimes don’t reappear for quite a while. I've stood there on the edge waiting for clean air more than few times wondering where did that guy go? If it was the New River Cliff instead of Bridge we'd need an industrial size squeegee to scrape the toggle grabbers off the face.

I remember when we didn't know anything about brake settings. or wing loading, in BASE. We are all pretty much jumping the same size skydiving canopies with the factory brake settings. Then we noticed heavier boys covered more horizontal distance than lighter girls did when the brakes are still stowed. This led to the multiple brake setting BASE manufacturers started giving us, and later when we started jumping canopies that were more correctly sized based on wing loading as it relates to BASE jumping, they found the optimum settings and did away with the multiple settings. While these settings also control openings to a degree the first purpose of all this was to have you open with minimal forward speed and give you the time to risers turn away. Being a toggle grabber totally defeats all that. Consider also that releasing brakes, that are set deep, gives you more initial surge forward, no matter how fast you get the toggles down to slow down, and that's no good either.

And when impact is coming most people ball up and cover their heads with their arms. Ask yourself if you want to be in brakes automatically in this situation or full flight?

I keep hearing about "the toggle/riser debate" only here. I never run into any long time BASE jumpers who ascribe to it . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Hi People. I was the fellow that hit the wall. I want to clarify that I did go for the left rear riser with my right hand only seconds after pulling down the left toggle. Both toggle and riser were all the way down. I did manage to get the canopy turned but was sliding down wind and hit the fin adjoining the cliff I exited. I know this because I had to swing my body 90 degrees to the right to face the wall for impact. (Feet First.) I was unable to release the right toggle. Just couldn't find it it the mele.
So in closing. Risers are good. Winds are bad. Next time I will walk down.
I have one witness from the ground and he has helped me sort this all out.
I have 126 base jumps and 94 skydives. I have been hurt bad twice skydiving and once base jumping.
Be safe and have fun. If you come to Moab come see us at Slickrock Campground.com
Blue Skies and Brown Rocks!

Was the canopy vented?

Not sure if he was jumping his Dagger or Rock Dragon. Slickrock, can you clarify this?

Also, Slickrock, can you confirm whether or not you have tuned your DBS?

What type, if any, body armor was being worn? If little or none would more have helped, or if a full setup or close to (full face, spine protector, elbow [sad, knee/shin gaurds. heavy duty boots, etc.) significantly aided you in speaking with us now?

 
Nick I am not picking on you necessarily. This Thread is Mainly why I am Writing this.
I am tacking this on after your post because this Toggle and Riser discussion is not being properly addressed.
There are BASE jumpers out there that Know this and Do This. but They are not Posting How-To or the proper PLACES to use Toggles.
I am writing this to Hopefully help Give a little clarity to the ones that are still Learning to do the Right thing on Basics, when they have a 180 on a BASE Jump.
*
Bridge-Day is a, Bridge. WHY would you use anything but Toggles on a BRIDGE. ?????
Toggles over Risers is always the best thing on Heading Correction after opening on a Bridge BASE Jump.. Slider-Up or Slider Down.
OK, first thing: Bridge-Day and having a 180 deg. off Heading and using Rear-Riser impute is not the Best Example to Throw out there for What is Right on the Use of Riser or Toggle for Heading Correction.
For one Thing. It has more CLEAN AIR . Almost like a Skydive. Any Moron could Turn a 180 around there
If you Can Not. You are a fucking Sub-Species lower than Brain Dead.
You use Bridge-Day as an Example for SKYDIVERS that are doing there 1st BASE Jump.
Not for BASE Jumpers learning to jump.
also:
Bridges have - Almost Always - a HEAD or TAIL Wind on exit.
Your 180 deg. off heading, could have a Head or a Tail-Wind.
If you have a 180 deg. off Heading with a Head Wind and you are in deep Brake settings. You Will have Almost NONE or very little forward Speed. but Most Importantly you will have EXTREMELY GOOD RESPONSIVE Rear-Riser impute if that is what you chose to use for a Correction TOOL.
If you exit a bridge, Have a 180 and have a Tail-Wind on top of it all Your Canopy will respond Like SHIT.
You will - BURN Up - Precious Altitude, @ the same time your Canopy will turn like a over-loaded School Bus.

BRIDGES : On a 180 or off heading you always , 99% of the time USE YOUR TOGGLES to correct your heading.
the only - 5 - exceptions are

1. If the side or sides of the Canyon or Wall of Gorge etc of what ever the Bridge is Spanning is Very Close to you on the exits, Like very Narrow and step walls. Most exits are in the center of the span with VERY liberal Clearance.

2. Or you are Very Low to the ground on Exit. Or you are Very-Low to the ground after you Pull when exiting a Bridge.

3. If you are a Very New BASE Student. If the student does not seem to be sensory over-loaded. Then by all means Teach Him to Go For The Toggles on a Bridge Exit for Canopy Heading Correction after Opening.

4. You have Line Twists and are closer to the Sides of Gorge or Canyon and Close to other object on the Ground.
You WILL REACH-UP above the line-twists and PULL a Rear-Riser for heading correction.

5. You were never Taught or Observed Better, Advanced BASE jumpers Doing It.

NOW...some more FACT. Using Toggles on a Shear face object for a Heading Correction after Opening is an ADVANCED MOVE.
This is a Fact. There is NO REBUTTAL or ARGUMENT that can be given to Over-Ride this.
It is more Advanced, More Daring and more chance of RISK to Fucking-Up.

FACT : The Classical and Proven technique of Rear-Risers Heading Correction is Taught and used by The Majority of BASE Jumpers.

but: TVPB said it CORRECTLY.
There is NO DEBATE about it. Toggle is Faster than Risers on Stopping and Turning your Canopy Around.
FACT : Having your Canopy Tuned with your Deep-Brake Setting WILL HELP over-ride the canopy from the initial instinct to Surge into Forward movement.
Combined with the proper Working Technique of Toggle Heading Correction in a 180 circumstance.
When your Canopy has a Proper Deep-Brake Setting,Combined with Toggles on Heading Correction Will Stop and Turn your Canopy FASTER than the use of Rear-Risers with proper Deep Brake setting.

The Proper Technique is. You Un-Stow and SLAM them both Down Equally. You Stop The Canopy. Then Back-Up the Canopy if your Crowded for space. If you Have the proper clearance from the object then let-up on the toggle of choice and Turn -Away.
You do not Chose one or the other Toggle to use on this Technique. You use BOTH toggles, VERY AGGRESSIVELY. You Toggle, Man-Handle that Canopy like your Life Depends on it.
You do not chose to use ONE RISER and ONE TOGGLE in combination. No mater what circumstances or theories your Little Brains can come up with. You ether use One or The Other. Not Both. Not Ever.

Using Slim's jump off Garie Beach as a Example as a Toggle FUMBLE, Fuck-Up on heading correction ???
It's not like there is that much documentation out there by Eye-Witness or Video to document the HUGE RISK FACTOR or the percentage of heading correction Fuck-Ups on BASE Jumps when using toggles over Risers.

Like I said... "I am writing this to Hopfully help Give a little clarity to the ones that are still Learning the Basics, to BASE Jump"
The use of Toggles is an advanced move. to be used in combination with BASE experience and to what kind of object being jumped.
OK : The majority of heading correction that happens for me is Riser. It's what I Drilled on as a Student. It is what I practice Now. The only way I can Explane this thing is It just came and I was not looking for it.
It just Happened on certain jumps. I did not choose to do it. It Choose Me. and I am also Still Learning.
It kinda a personal and sensitive issue with me anyway, on Where or when to use Toggles.
If you talk to other BASE jumpers who use this Technique You might get a different answer all together.
If you chose to use this Technique I feel . It has to come from inside you. - SPONTANEOUSLY- with out Thought. that's the only way I can explane it.If it does not. You might be to Slow. & that might enough to be a, fucking-up-Badly. Toggle heading correction with shear-face objects only comes about by doing a lot of repetitious BASE jumps.
Enough BASE jumps to where the use of Toggles just happens as Spontaneous action.
*
I feel in Rare Form Tonight to Argue proper Heading Correction Technique.
So anybody fellin Froggy enough, dont hesitate to Jump On.
.
.

Ray,

I agree with most of what you wrote, except for:

-Bridge Day has rappelling lines dangling from the bridge, so it really needs to be treated like a cliff jump.
-I still do riser turns off EVERY object (cliff, bridge, or anything for that matter) in order to be consistent.
-Risers are always faster than toggles if you've blown a toggle

Otherwise, great information Ray. Cya.

Heres my 2 cents

I agree with most of what Tom Begic and Ray Losli have said on this subject.
I disagree with most of what Nick and Tom A have said on this subject.

I spent today writing an article on the subject of Risers or Toggles hoping to shed some light here. The article can be found in the Info Library section of my website

Thanks Johnny. That was a good read. Definitely stuff to think about and practice on skydives and bridges.

Thanks,

Jaap

Ya there are some ropes out there.
I think I might have seen Avery, get a Close look @ one of those Rope things Once a time ago ........

With the Repelling Ropes Hanging, It kind of goes with the Head & Tail Wind with a Bridge exit.
If you got a Tail Wind on the 180. If you are a BASE jumper. The Toggle Correction will be Faster.
If you got a head wind, You most likely be OK.

I think I am Hinting @ that it should be made a -Standard teaching Practice - for BASE that on Bridge Jumps.Toggle Technique is Preferred for Heading Correction over Riser.
.
.

Hi Nick

r.e. the long time jumpers and toggle/riser debate.

Its out there big time. It is not only on the internet. Come down under and you'll see what I mean. I have seen it in Europe, and I have seen it in the States.

I am personally heavily in favour of risers for deployment heading correction. I teach that to all my students.

p.s. regarding my comments on relative speed between risers and toggles, I need to clarify a few points I was making:
- I was comparing the inputs in stages.
- the time from decision to grip is slightly greater for toggles.
- the likelihood of an incorrect grip or missed grip is higher on toggles than on risers.
- I think I mentioned that the speed comparison was after a correct grip had been made and the toggle was released. Forgive me if I missed this. Given this scenario, a toggle input will make a faster turn than risers. But the speed is offset by likelihood of positioning closer to an object. And when you factor in the time and risk mentioned above, it seems logical to me that ON AVERAGE, riser inputs are a better option. People may argue against this in specific circumstances.

Anyway, its all personal perceptions and judgement. I'll try to dig up some published material on canopy control and flight and include it here.

Odessey with a 244 Dagger. DBS are right on from day one so I never moved them. Helment and Knee pads. 42 f111 PC. 400 foot cliff with a good one second delay. Winds 2 to 5 left to right but variable.

Tail wind on a 180 where you have a chance of hitting something?????

I thought this thread was about risers versus toggles, not about right from wrong...

Hi Ray. You asked for it.

Primacy in learning is super critical when teaching students. Toggle this time, riser that time, if the wind is over that speed do this, if it is that speed do that, if its low do this, if its narrow do that, if if if if if if.. . . . . .

What if I forget page 47859 of the BASE encyclopaedia that I have been taught prior to my first jump? Keep it simple.

I think teaching BASE jumping is like learning investing. Find a series of simple rules that are known to work, and stick to them. Don't use emotion, gut feel, what if's, every time you should be making simple decision.

r.e. wind and bridge jumps: you only have wind on a bridge jump if you choose to jump in wind. Your figures are skewed by personal experience, and your personal risk tolerance. These figures should not be extrapolated to beginners. If its too windy, you don't jump. There is no complication here. Too windy does not mean acceptable wind, it means too much wind. You've just answered the question of "to jump, or not to jump"? Its more important teaching a student how to say NO than all the combinations and variations in equipment and jumping technique. They will learn the details over time if they choose to do so. If not, natural selection will look after them.

Toggles over risers on a bridge. Here is a common scenario on lower bridge jumps amongst inexperienced jumpers. Deep brake settings - open - slight stall due to poor brake setting &/or wind interference - pop toggles & unknowingly go to full drive - panic - deep brake input due to fear of hitting ground - still time - go to full drive due to insufficient drive to generate lift/flare on landing - SURGE - deep brake pound in.

How about - if you feel rushed - rear riser flare and PLF - assuming the ground is not covered in boulders)?

Toggles to correct heading on lower jumps #2 - 90 degree off heading - excessive toggle input = hook turn landing.....

I have seen many people fumble for their toggles for heading correction. I have done it myself. If you throw a twist in with the off heading, your body is spinning around which makes it even harder to accurately grab your toggles in a timely fashion.

Let me clarify again - toggles are faster than risers WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE OUTPUT OR RESPONSE. They are NOT a better option overall, especially when considering inexperienced jumpers or students.

As usual, just my opinion.

Can you tell us what your test process was for determining this?

Thanks!

seven seconds on a 1200' antenna. I just let it fly without releasing the toggles watching my decent in relationship to the A and the ground. A test flair or two and a nice soft landing. From there I never gave it another thought.

Um, you tested your deep brake setting slider up?

i dont agree you need to pull way less on your risers to get input,therfore people like me somtimes rearriser stall canopyes..

As pulling rearriser you plull both your toogle and other lines(give it a look,there ARE lines attached to your riser)

It will always be a faster turn using ANY risers on your canopy,just be sure you know what your doing...

i do agree it takes a milisec more as youll need to pull the toogle longer down to release it... not much notice i would say...


i fully agree,as your right

Is that all you got..? Bring it on Buddy......
Hey, Hey, Hey. What do you mean. If, If, If ?
IF - your jumping you jump and IF you Don't you Don't Jump.
If your jumping a Bridge the ONLY. decision to make is Toggles over risers. There's No - IF - about it....
If you are Jumping a Bridge and you Open off-Heading. You tell me - Why Everyone should not Use the Toggles ?
It is Superior in Speed of Correction. Is it Not. ? Especially if you Have A Tail wind on a 180. On a Bridge BASE Jump. (If I am wrong about that correct me.)
Learning is Learning. For every one. & Learning Is Safety.
As far as Students Go. They are all different. ( Right ? )
If a learning Student is Not getting to much Sensory overload and is a Good Learner. Why not teach Him Or Her the BEST way ? They can Handle it. The Brighter mechanically skilled People will always stand-out over the SLOW-learners.
'
TB :
"Toggles to correct heading on lower jumps #2 - 90 degree off heading - excessive toggle input = hook turn landing....."
-
What the FUCK ? Is that a Trick Question ?
OK....If ANY BASE jumper or Student does not know that a Hook-Turn with Toggles Low to the ground is BAD.
He or Her will Learn Pretty F-ing Quick.
You should not have to Teach That. You as a student BASE jumper should have enough Skydives as to already know that ?
Hopefully as a Student BASE jumper you are being Taught to do. Flat-Turns in Half-Breaks . Not pulling down on a Toggle but letting up on a Toggle to Turn if you are Low to the ground.....
I am not condoning the USE of Toggle for Heading Correction on Shear-Face Objects. (for anybody) they still get used though.
For Students or The Advanced Jumper. They Get used though. And on a Open Bridge exit they are the ONLY way to Go.
If the Fucking Student can not keep a BRIDGE separate From a Cliff Jump when using Toggles over Risers Than I say... " Fuck Them. Don't BASE Jump." - or - ..." Take it easy and Slow and LEARN @ your own pace."

* OK *
TB -..." Let me clarify again - toggles are faster than risers WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE OUTPUT OR RESPONSE. They are NOT a better option overall, especially when considering inexperienced jumpers or students. "
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Overall I got to say that statement is CORRECT. Fuck dude. I got no big Rebuttals to that.
I stated that It is an advanced Move and Risky on Shear-face objects for the Experienced jumper.
But:
A BASE jumper that is going to Learn to be ( FAST on the Draw ) and Far more Efficient on Bridge Exits for Heading Correction. Will learn that it's Toggles over the use of Risers.
It's just the way it is. It's more Stream-Line on the Mechanics. + Faster on the Heading Correction.
The Better BASE Students are going to learn that anyway. That's Why they are Better. So teach them NOW. Don't let them find out latter for themselves.
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Edit to add.
Also: How's about this ?
I will add that - Toggles on a Terminal delay, Shear-wall, BASE Jump for your Heading Correction is GOOD & safe to use 99 % of the time for ALL experienced BASE jumper. Provided that you got Good Clearance from the object on Opening and no Line-twists...........
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I imagine that this has been done a Hundred times by others but As Example.
I had the privilege of using Both, Riser and Toggle in Combination once on a Big-Wall jump.
Got a Nice extra long Track and a Little Lower than desirable opening but not un-safe.
I Had a Lot of clearance when I pulled but Line-Twists & flying back at the Face So.
I climbed up above the Twist, Grabed Rear Riser, changed Canopy heading away parallel to cliff-face. Kicked Out of Twist. Immediately, Went to Toggles. Slammed them down in Half-Breaks. Flat-Turned around & Flaired safely On my LZ of choice. That always stuck in my mind as a memorable jump.
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Faber, Faber, Faber
Son, You -NEED- a GOOD person to teach you the FINE-Points of BASE Jumping.

You need to come here and spend a couple Weeks with me.
I will shape your fucking, BASE Jumping Ass up in a Hurry, Brutha.........

. Everything you say is WRONG in that post / except agreeing that.
Fact - there is a higher probability that you will miss a toggle as opposed to a riser.
(but you might want to add -Might Miss- to that sentance.

If you don't want to use your Toggles over Risers in a Bride BASE jump for a Heading Correction. Then you don't know what your Missing.
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Don't worry Ray, PDX in on the list for our trip. I think we're setting aside a couple days there.

You'll get to jump with Faber!

I didnt want to post, but Ray, that was some funny shit bro.
I love you man!!!!!
I agree with every single thing you wrote in that last post. Your following post was equally good. You need to hook that brother up.

Faber, I second Ray. Everything you said in your last post is incorrect except this part:
Im only saying this because I care about you bro.
Im glad youll be hitting PDX.


Yes, but keep in mind, the more developed and reliable your skill is, the smaller that probability becomes.....and that is the key.
How much do you trust yourself?
Its just like a navy pilot landing on a carrier. If he doesnt trust himself, he will ask for a transfer.
You MUST be skillful to use the toggles.
Q: So why even go for them?
A: Because when used with proper technique, they can help you escape injury or death WAY better than the risers.

Q: What is the one thing that sparks fear in us on every jump where an object strike is possible?
A: An object strike!

That is because we all know it comes down to a race. You dont want to crash before you get around the track; so youll be extra careful. BUT, those who are good enough will do what they possibly can to get ahead.
Why?
So that they have a better chance of winning!

bring it on

i use rearrisers to FAST turns,but they will give you a great loss of altitude... i use toogles for the NEARLY fast option were i need not to loose altitude...

Lets have a beer while talking about this...


you know as i jump my wife im naked and dont need toogles or risers im allready on the right track then

DAD i need more mony

Yeah, natural selection is all good, except when you are there to pick up the pieces.

I have seen a bloke do a floater off a lower bridge, fumble for his toggles, and 4 seconds later he hit a pylon. . . . which was in front of him and 45 degrees to the right!!!!! I've seen people with 1000's of skydives hook it it, I've seen people do the stall to surge frap in, I've seen. . . . Anyway. . . .

Teaching the "right way" straight off has its merits. But you have to have the right back ground and the right objects to be able to do this. You have to remember, there are people reading these forums as their basis for BASE education and training. They will take the word of most people here and go out and jump there high risk objects using techniques appropriate only for experienced jumpers on lower risk objects. This is serious stuff. It happens. We had one guy turn out to one of our Waterfall boogies in the late nineties after having read a tongue in cheek article in a magazine. He did not even know we were there, it was a coincidence that he turned up at the same time as us. He jumped with D-Bag etc.

BTW

<<Provided that you got Good Clearance from the object on Opening>>
What is this getting major separation away from the wall stuff on big wall BASE jumps huh? Ya big sissy!!!

Don't forget, you are talking to an Aussie. We get lonely when the rock is not there!!!!!!!!!

Hence, risers it is for me. Usually!

Your turn Ray.

Changed my mind.

I think we should all use the art of Zen & Meditation in correcting our headings.

As the canopy is deploying, cross your arms over in front of you, close your eyes, and "be the canopy". Fly gracefully towards the wall, be at one with it, tease it, torment it, gracefully push it further away from you, then reject it. Turn away when it wants you the most. Glide towards. . . . . . .

Yeah... I'm going to stick with hitting the toggles lightning fast and ripping that canopy off the wall.

I'm not too good at all that Zen stuff, so I will stick with what I know.

I read your post more carefully Ray & changed my response. Bridge jumps I generally use toggles to correct for 180s. Usually because I have plenty of time to unstow them in my usual fashion & time-frame. I don't think anyone will argue that toggles will get you turned around faster than risers.

You also said this which I am in 100% agreement with.


Bottom line, there is no one generic solution to every BASE problem (well... except the parachute part). One approach may be ideal for one situation and completely inappropriate in another.

Whahahaha, Object avoidance according to Tom

Dex:
"You'll get to jump with Faber! "
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OHhhhhhh, I'm Looking forward to it.
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and afterward you probaly blame your self the rest of your life that you did so..

looking forward to aswell

Oki guys i give up i do expect that the only reasson you have more experince on this toogles vs riser thing must be that most of your openings are offheading.. not learn to pack Faberstyle theyre usaly also onheadding while deploying unstabel and strong x winds.

wankers..

psst i wont bring a slider on the trip,sliders are evil and will cause offheading..