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I had heard that there was a connection in scientific literature between risk-taking behaviour and low serotonin activity in the brain. I had also heard that it is not, in fact, adrenaline which we are chiefly after, but rather dopamine. I found what looks like a fairly good introductory article here, for those that are interested:

http://www.nlada.org/...620.52/serotonin.pdf

The quote below is from the article:


I'm inclined not to take these things too seriously, but I am interested because it seems to offer some insight into our behaviour, and what binds our diverse community together.

Michael

Do a search on type T personalities. This research has actually been around for quite some time now.

also try looking up mono oxy aminase

Also look up under BS.

Or, perhaps, mono-amine oxidase?

Michael

Care to expand on this?

Michael

http://www.wordspy.com/...typeTpersonality.asp

No, it'll take forever.

Bottom line is that you cannot make a direct link between molecules and behavior like popular science loves to do. Behavior reflects the complexity of the mind hence many, many phenomena at any level must be accounted for not just molecules.

All sensation seeking theories have major flaws and empirical data are lacking. This is something I would love getting into when I am done with my current line of research.

  

Abstracts of a few medical papers about psychological and physiological aspects of skydiving

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...46632&query_hl=3

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...38370&query_hl=3

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...27126&query_hl=3

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...78229&query_hl=3

What's that? The effects of shark-cuddle sessions to improve spaghetti digestion?

For those that didn't know, NickNitro71 is a neuroscientist, so he occasionally knows what he's talking about. Don't let him fool you into believing he's Italian though.

I'm Dutch through and through. Van Rugai my last name is...

[sarcasm]

I'm with you, man. My wife, who's a paramedic, claims to have seen people whose behaviour was altered by -- get this -- high levels of blood alcohol, or low levels of blood sugar. As if molecules can be closely correlated with particular behaviours...

[/sarcasm]

Seriously, though... While I respect that you may have a basis in mind for your statement, what you've said is clearly so broad as to be completely unsupported by the facts. If you have references, though, I'd love to read them.

I've met a lot of BASE jumpers, and there's nothing I've noticed that psychologically binds them together. There are too many different types of BASE jumpers. There are the up for anything types that are plain brave, there are the up for anything types that are plain stupid. There are the ones who are loud and obnoxious, and the ones who say little without great prompting. There are the ones who live in the moment and the ones who live in a lifetime of moments. There are the studied and the unstudied. There are the mean, the sweet, the male and the female. We are law-abiding and sometimes not so law-abiding.

There are the young and firm ones and old and infirm ones. There are the ones who promote the sport and the ones who promote themselves. There are the ones hostile to any authority, and some who are ready to go along with anything. Some proclaim their individuality and go about their jumping alone and some proclaim their individuality and jump with a crew. Some travel the world and some never leave their own backyard. There are the very presentable BASE jumpers and the ones you wouldn't bring anywhere near your parents.

Being at a large gathering of BASE jumpers, like Bridge Day, is like being at any sizeable convention. You'll find no one type of behavior or personality, what you will find is a cross section of people, humans all, who are (mostly) just trying to have a little fun in this thing we call life . . .

NickD
BASE 194

It's been my experience that this usually means, "Actually, I don't have a clear answer to your question." Perhaps you're underestimating your audience.


As has already been pointed out, I think it's pretty obvious that molecules can have a profound and consistent effect on behaviour.

Behaviour is a combination of many phenomena, but it doesn't mean that each of the parts doesn't contribute to the whole. Nobody's saying that when you're drunk you're at the mercy of the alcohol in your blood stream. But it would be foolish to argue that blood alcohol has no impact on behaviour.


Maybe you can elaborate on the major flaws. I am very much interested in exploring this question, and it's really frustrating when someone offers an opinion, but won't deign to offer an explanation as well.

Michael

there is actually a psychologist studying BASE jumpers right now and how their IQ and Personalities relate to each other and if it is possible to put a label on the type of personality. Mostly very neurotic and smart.

There have been way too many intelligent responses to this post and frankly I'm sick of it. Wheres Skin when we need him?

There is something in the four papers I listed above:
there are some common personality traits among the experienced participants.

In reductionist simplicity, the four papers present experienced skydivers as "cool, calm, and collected" who (partially by the virtue of their "coolness, calmness, and collectedness" ) may need a bigger kick to bring a broad smile on their face.

It is all obviously related to serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, cortisol, just to name a few hormones involved, but the details ARE murky.

Interestingly, cortisol levels were lower than reference before the jump, even though they usually go up under stress.

Unfortunately, testosterone levels remain low...

I had a look at the abstracts, but not the articles. I'm working on getting the articles themselves now.

Michael

He has nine days to go, more's the pity.

rl

I'm not sure if this has been posted cuz I didn't look through the whole thread...but check out the DVD of Adrenaline Rush. It explains the whole thing, and has some cool freefly/BASE footage too.

I am currently teaching psychopharmachology. Psychoactive drugs do induce behavioral changes but you misunderstood my point.

Popular science suggests or sometimes even dictates that some natural occurring chemicals like some neurotransmitters or enzymes that break them down are responsible for certain behaviors. This is not correct or at least it does not give the full picture.

I think NickDG summarized the picture quite well and he came to the same conclusions that I did without empirical data: There is not a personality type that fits all BASE jumpers (the pinnacle of sensation seekers if you asked me) and stating that BASE jumpers have low or high levels of this neurotransmitters or that enzyme is just a shot in the dark at best.

The reason those papers upset me so much is the fact that they oversimplify the brain/mind that I so admire for its complexity. When I got into Neuroscience about 10 years ago I thought things were cool and everything made some sense “Oh cool this structure does this...this neurotransmitter does that…this circuitry is responsible for such…” After a decade in the field I am more confused than ever and I can barely grasp some of the phenomena and processes the mind is able to achieve.

We have tons of experimental data but the field as a whole is lacking solid theories like the ones for Sensation Seeking.

The thing is… it is hard to get grants just by wanting to play with theories…empirical data must be provided…so now we have this big pot of data that nobody knows how to interpret it or glue it together to come up with some solid conceptualizations.

Hey Nick, do you have any thoughts on Jeff Hawkin's work?

I know the name I am not familiar with his work.

A little more work and that could be a great poem. jk.

However if you took a cross section of ALL the people at bridgeday (spectators and jumpers) I would think you could find something more in common with all the jumpers compared to all the spectators. Not an absolut, but probably a tendency toward risk adrenaline.

nic

what we need for this study are scores of brain damaged thrill seekers willing to be psychologically and physiologically probed, prodded, imaged, and dissected.

Brain damaged or not (some seem to think I am already) I'll pass. I hate needles!

 
I don't agree. We all take risks. It's just that some risks are more spectacular than others. The fellow with three children who risks it all on a new business is just as ballsy as I am when I step off the Flatiron building in the middle of the night . . .

NickD
BASE 194

That may well be. But I'm willing to bet that, while 100% of the people on the "jumpers" side of the line are about to huck themselves off of a bridge, less than 50% of the people on the other side would take the "new business" risk if given the chance.

I certainly wouldn't claim that 100% of BASE jumpers share some defining trait. However, I have read reports of research (and I wish I had a more concrete reference than that; perhaps nicknitro71 can help out here) indicating that (if I recall correctly) the genetics of the prison population code, on average, for statistically fewer saratonin reuptake inhibitors than one finds in the bulk population -- for, so they hypothesize, reasons similar to those quoted in the article crwper started this off with.

Does that mean that everybody in prison shares this trait? No. Does that mean that everybody with this trait winds up in prison? No. But genetic predisposition is one important (and, I think, interesting) factor in determining behaviour.

Anyway, if the idea of a correlation interests you, then cool. If not, then it's really not that important.

Oh, pick me! Pick me! Never mind.

Michael

I will have to say Nick hit the nail on the head. It's no different Than a surfer or Climber or whatever. You have people that long board malibu at 2 feet and guys who surf Jaws at 30 feet... you have climbers who climb Joshawa Tree and climbers who climb Everest...All risks some big some small ...but all tied to what you are comfortable with..... both with the same objective......have a little fun in this thing we call life.... Why try to explain it...Just live it...

Nick you are really on.... I think you are more connected than allot of people i know.....

I was thinking about that the other day as i read a retiree in the forums being that he made a promise to his wife to quit to keep his word....That takes balls....To give up what makes you the person you are... for someone else...

For someone like me who has three kids and a wife and are looking to start base.....yes it take balls in the sense to weigh in that you could leave these loved ones without someone they depend on. i think this is my hardest decision.. as they love me for the father and husband i am but would never tell me not to as they know skydiving and the sports i do make me the person they love..... ..

Serotonin and Dopamine, my Ass
AHHH yes a bunch of Science trained STIFFS working with Government grants, making, (educated Guesses)...?
On why some people Chose take Risks.
There must be some way that they can make Sense of it all and explain why you act so different from the Majority.

Is there a connection in scientific literature between risk-taking behavior ???
I smell ......
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Yes. Figures that some crazy Brit wrote it.Plus I don't think stiffs will be writting anything. Sometimes it isn't too difficult to figure out why people do certain things. The problem is that no one cares until it's a problem, like PTSD(all forms of trauma).

Also Amazon has all kinds of literature on it. I have a plethora of psychology books, written by someone that cares more than I do, sitting all over the house from my wife. I use them to prop the old dvd player on one side when it starts rattling.

i just do it because ia crazy brit....prrts dingwoopoooterebdhdikm!!!stop those bells.

So that's a no on "the idea of a correlation interests you"? I wonder why you took the time to post...

I have this image in my mind of some science-trained stiffs busting into Ray's house when he was just a kid, taking his toys, and doing something psychologically damaging to his parents while he looked on. Seriously, man, what's with the chip? People explain things in all kinds of different ways. This is just one of them.

Michael

I agree that those are both big risks to take. I don't agree that everyone takes that level of risk. There are plenty of people out there who will live out their entire life more or less without laying it all on the line.

Do you really think everyone takes exactly equal risks in their lives? If not, this motivates the question, is there something that the folks who take greater risks have in common? What I don't understand is the largely defensive response in this thread to the fact that someone is trying to answer this question in the best way they know how.

Nor am I excluded from this group. I watched the Aussie 60 Minutes episode and, probably like most of you, I couldn't believe the "sport psychologist" who was trying to explain BASE jumping as a way for jumpers to feel better about themselves, or better than everyone else.

For me, this begs the question, what are we defending ourselves against? It seems like a relatively harmless statement. Yes, it's possible studies like this will influence policy-makers in a way that is not beneficial to the BASE community. But how much energy are we going to spend thinking what idiots these people are? If we hear a theory that we like, we can add it to our understanding of the world. If we don't like it, we can discard it. No harm done. Why do we feel the need to defend ourselves against otherwise-harmless theories that we don't like?

Michael

He has, however, sent me a rather humorous PM. I suspect that his brain may soon explode from a humor overload.

So that's a no on "the idea of a correlation interests you"?
I wonder why you took the time to post"...
...

I posted because this Thread on the BASE Zone has the least amount of Correlation to It, and actually going out and Making a BASE Jump......

And don't try to take my Toys Away or you will be Sorry.
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Yep - the comments from the sports psych on 60 mins were a little too generalist for me too. This was either achieved by the editors picking out what the general public MAY have wanted to hear, OR, the sports psych's level of understanding was very limited.

The British song bird Dido (as opposed to Dodo who is the extinct free thinking person who is very comfortable with their place in life despite undertaking activities outside the statistical norm ) sang the lyrics: "I am what I am, I do what I want". This is, within reason, the essence of my existance.

Quite frankly, at this point in time, I do not need or feel the need to explain my actions to anyone. As long as I don't actually (as opposed to perceptually ) affect other people's lives, who cares what I do. Individuals who feel threatened by a BASE jumpers ability to undertake an action beyond their wildest comprehensions, should take an unblinkered step back and consider where society would be if EVERY individual was in fact a suppressed clone performing at some average level. Society would not advance.

What the sports psych failed to verbalise or comprehend or consider is that high achievers, by definition, seek internal or external recognition for their performance. This recognition is a part of the feedback control system that helps improve the performance. If you have no feedback, you DO NOT progress. You do not get better. BASE jumpers are in some respects, high performance individuals. Notwithstanding the yahoos who leap without thought or preparation, the majority of the BASE community have highly developed risk management skills and intelligence. Many BASE jumpers are accomplished in their chosen professional careers. Participation in BASE jumping is simply another form of expression of their abilities. Deviation from statistical norms does not always imply some psychological imbalance.

I disagree with the comment that you can't group personality types within the BASE community. You can make some generalisations about common traits of individuals within the group. However, just like everything else in life, their will be exceptions. Subgroups will have some commonalities in reference to certain characteristics (i.e we jump because we are nature lovers), but also some widely fluctuating characteristics. (i.e. one nature lover will be very conservative and quiet whilst another will be a high risk taker and loud).

The comment by the sports psych that we jump due to a need to belong / or for egocentric reasons flies right in the face of the fact that MANY jumps are done in isolation. It clearly shows that his data pool is limited to public events. It would be like measuring the % of the gay population in San Francisco and saying that it correlates to the entire western world. Flawed. Unprofessional. Not very academic if you ask me.

I also believe that there is nothing wrong with people undertaking psychological studies related to risk and adventure, as long as they are taken with the proverbial "grain of salt" when considered by other people. Without some form of research, even our sport would not progress. And lets face it, we are all very greatful for the progression that has occured over the last five years or so.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom B

Depends on who's doing the probing and prodding.

[Picturing a really hot nurse putting on the rubber gloves and....]

Well, I for one dont jump because I have a chemical imbalance in the brain. I jump because the voices in my head tell me to.

But seriously, you wouldnt be a real base jumper if you were driven to jump by biology. Choosing to jump seems to me the defining characteristic of the more well rounded jumper. If a prescription to balance your mental chemistry could make you stop jumping, then you were peripheral to the sport to begin with.

Ahhhhh, TB......
I totally agree that Lumping all BASE jumpers into one Chemically Un-balanced group is Total CRAP. and that aint SCIENCE. and you certinaly dont need to explane who or why or for what Reasons drew you to make all those BASE jumps.
but:
What about that need. That -NEED- to go out and, Do-One ??? Hu Hu Hu
That, Craving, Wanting, Crying, Pawing, Urge that builds-up, inside between BASE Jumps ???
If you have been lying around and haven't done a Jump for a weeks time.
You get that Hunger for a BASE Jump.
Why are you Hungry for A BASE jump ?
Why do you get that Need/want, to go out and do another BASE Jump ?
Could there be some sort of Chemistry driven Desire to BASE Jump?

Well let me tell you what my Scientific data Tells Me.
You got to Admit that it's Kinda like going out and ...Getting Your - FIX.
I Got to say That. "Packing your Chute and So Slowly sliding that Closing-Pin through the Loop. Then Stowing that Pilot Chute, Is kinda like,
Interveines foreplay with a Tourniquet & Needle. loaded with Heroin." ?????
Pitching that Pilot-Chute in Free-Fall is like Un-Leashing a Monster, load of China-White to your BRAIN.
Then when you Come-Down (land). All is Calm, Sane and Balanced and you feeeeeeel - GREAT.

What these so called. ( Scientists ) need to do is develop some similar kind of ( Methadone ) like substitute for BASE Jumpers.
Methadone being an Artificial replacement for, Heroine.
To keep you from getting....Extremely fucking - HIGH.... off, getting your next - FIX - (base jump)
That Way. We can -ALL- do the normal sociable acceptable behavior like sitting on our fat-fucking Asses like all the rest of them and Think about doing something Exiting like making a BASE Jumping.
.
I think this Hypothesis totally supports the Fact that I just finished Packing-Up another one and going out again tonight to ...
Get my , FIX
..
.

I hope I never become a "real" BASE jumper. Too many rules and regulations, if what I've read around here is any indication, and the us vs. them thing does nothing for me. If you're looking for me, I'll be over here making fake BASE jumps.



Edit to add: What if the prescription made what was previously enjoyable and frightening just plain frightening? If a person quits jumping after a bad injury, would you actually tell them to their face that they were peripheral to the sport to begin with? I suspect not...

Dude, you almost made sense there for a moment. It was awe-inspiring, and a little scary.

Whats the connection between quitting after a bad injury, and having a neurochemical deficiency? Some people have a compulsion to start fires. It doesnt make them any less of a fire starter, but if they choose to start fires without a classical mental illness to motivate them; well at least theyre broader and more well rounded fire starters, will last longer in their chosen outlet, and will adapt better to different aspects of the genre, as well as getting more out of it. I just happen to know people with classic brain chemistry problems who base jump, and they are much less fun to jump with then Ray Losli.

In any case someone who is forced by neurotic chemistry to jump, or to "finish" out their deficient brain chemistry by jumping is far more bound by biological rules then someone who chooses to jump, and must "psych" for the jump. That person is free. It is the first who is trapped and pinioned.

If you jump because youre mad at people than you are choosing to jump, you seek psychological resolution rather than psychiatric or chemical resolution to a biological problem. I imagine we are not talking about the same thing, having casually commented and likely ill-defined our respective opinions and positions.

In any case, we're all jumpers regardless of reason. I made a solo last night (filmed) that didnt get me "high" at all. I stopped getting "high" years ago. I choose to continue...

I totally agree. I guess what I want to emphasize is that it's not a black and white thing. Some people might be absolutely compelled by brain chemistry to jump, or to gamble. These people are no healthier (I think) than the folks who are compelled by brain chemistry to, as you say, start fires.

Some people feel no compulsion at all to get near the edge of a cliff. In fact, I know a lot of people for whom that holds absolutely no reward. They feel the fear, but not (for instance) that tingling that says "get closer...".

Me, I get a kick out of standing near the edge even when conditions are such that I'm not going to be jumping. I guess my thought is that many BASE jumpers who are really drawn to the sport are probably predisposed toward it, probably at a level so basic that it's biological. I choose to be in the sport, but I probably wouldn't have made the same choice if I didn't feel the basic draw...

 
Base736 ..." Dude, you almost made sense there for a moment. It was awe-inspiring, and a little scary."
.....

Hey, No Problemo
Just trying to make things a little brighter in your life till, SKIN get's back
by Giving , Sloppy-Second's, to Skins brand of Humor.......
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I suppose I should make a topical comment here, but for the most part, I disagree with the lot of you. I think Tom almost has it. As for you, Mr. Nitro, your point of view is too deeply colored by what you do. You've got to look at the bigger picture.

But that's not the reason for this post.


You're a lot of things, Ray--most of them good--but you'll never be up to Skin's standards.

Seven more long, Skinless days. Perhaps we should petition management for a pardon before the whole place falls apart.

God knows, he'll never get time off for good behavior.


rl

Can't we let skin off early?

>>Too many rules and regulations<<

The nail is being struck . .

There's freedom and there's also freedom within a framework of rules, no wait a minute, no there's not . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Think about this one for genetics... I was adopted at 3 and never knew anything about my biological parents until almost 20. All I ever wanted to do growing up was be a pilot, and in my teens, I also developed a facination with skydiving. Neither of my adopted parents had ever exposed me to either activity, but as soon as I went away to college, I immediately started flying, and later, skydiving. I am now an ex-fighter pilot who has started basejumping in the last 2 years. Heres the kicker... you can imagine my surprise when I find out years after I started flying that my biological father was an Army helicopter pilot in Vietnam, as well as an accomplished skydiver on an RW team. Additionally, my biological mom turned out to have about 17 jumps to her credit. Now how is it possible for a kid separated from his family at 1 y/o, put in a foster home 'til 3 y/o, who then received zero exposure to his dreams, ends up being driven to follow in the exact footsteps of his biological parents? Along with finding out about my father (who was by then deceased), I was fortunate enough to acquire his jump wings from his skydiving days back in the '70s. My first solo after AFF was with his jumpwings pinned to my rig.
Genetics... mysterious and powerful.

now thats an cool/awesome story.

heres a similar one... a cose frioend of mine..adopted, no knowledge of his bioparents until later, is frontman of many different mildly successful bands learned recently that his real father was the exact same person as him.. i wonder if maybe somehow before conception certain activities or "favorites" become so much a part of you that it somehow becomes ingrained in your dna... the human body is fkin fascinating.... with its thinking and regeneration and such...

A band? Wow, That is pretty close to a helo and fighter pilot.

More likely, I think, the father and the son shared genetic code which made them pre-disposed to certain kinds of activities. I know a lot of who we are is the result of environmental influences in our upbringing, but I think genetics plays an important role in the "broad strokes" of who we become in life.

Michael

The current thinking leans towards "nature" much more than "nurture." The evidence--particularly the twin studies--begins to indicate that personality is hardwired.

rl

I am not negating here the hereditary predispositions, but don't underestimate power of the unconscious. We are "sponges" all our lives and internalize our environment and very much more so at age of 1. The fact that you did not understand what skydiving was at age of one, does not mean you couldn't internalize the idea from your parents.

Sounds silly, but the whole concept of psychotherapy is based on that.

You are a sick man. I think you should see a psychologist or . . . .

'

Skin?

The only common thread I've found among the jumpers is that they are generally stress seekers... and most do not like to golf.