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Besides the sacred Not telling on/turning in on each other rule, what oher rules do you guys use for your crews or solo?

Ie:
call the local;
get me away from the object if hurt;
get me away from the object and take me to the hospital if hurt;
etc...

Here are some important lines from my BASE Camp-FJC course materials.

Might be me...but if you're hurt bad...do you still care about a site?

Ethics are fine and all...but if I (or someone else if you will) just broke my back I just want a chopper/ambulance to pick me up where I'm lying. If that means burning a site...so be it. A human life is still more important then some site.

I agree

A while back, someone suggested to me: If I go in, erase the last few seconds of tape. I like this one. Inevitably my family will look for it (because that's what people do), but I really don't think they need to see it.

Michael

I will add that one to my list.

Caution: Remember that:

A) This is tampering with evidence and could get you jailtime.
B) The entire head is likely to come off in your hands. I like a little head now and again but this is not a pretty way of satisfying yourself.
C) Tom Aiello and Johnny Utah will have already called the pigs on you so you're gonna get pinched anyway.(Just gagging boys - which, incidentally is the same phrase I heard a cheerleader say one time when she was kneeling in front of me and the rest of the soccer team after we voiced concerns over her ocular swelling)

If you balk at Coop's suggestion because you're breaking the law just remember...you're already mired in shite up to your armpits and you may as well go the distance. You can't dig half a hole. Go large.

Gotta love cheerleaders...

One thing also:
If shit goes Bad or Wrong for one of you simple-shits.
and there are more than just two of you / for example a small group or Zoo load.
There is really No Need for - All - to take the Heat.
After the Medical or the Authorities have been contacted depending on how Bad it has (Hit the Fan)

If it can be AGREED in the group that only ONE need stay.
The duties should be separated if at all possible as to Someone stay with the unlucky victim of circumstance.
It is much simpler if One stay / With ONE STORY to tell.
While others Take care of all Gear, Vehicles etc. and contact #'s or rendezvous latter.
Even though One Stays Behind / All should share in all monetary Cost of Ticket/Fines or a possible Attorney if needed. For your GOOD Friend who stays.
It does not make much sense that all should stay. All get gear confiscated. All get Ticketed or Fined (bla bla)

Like Skin said...."remember...you're already mired in shite up to your armpits and you may as well go the distance."
.
So All of You are in it together /you need to stick together.but You Need to play it smart also.
example: Don't fuck around trying to erase a Tape / push the Eject button if possible and Simply Take It out, close the door & Take it with you.
Also: who doesn't like them Cheerleaders ?
.

There was a case in Australia that particularly sh*ts me, most of you would've seen the fooatge and some of you just might know the story.

A jumper handed over footage to rescuers, to aid in the treatment of a severly injured jumper- which didn't seem that unreasonable a request at the time.

The short version of the subsequent events is that the footage ended up on the nightly news before the parents had been contacted and the 'helpful' jumper was prosecuted on a number of counts (the injured jumper wasn't). They even tried to go after the 'helpful' jumper for the cost of the chopper rescue.

The advice I've heard, was that if its a jump on the grayer side of legal:
-if its your footage: destroy it, lose it, blank it, heck accidently drop it in the sea, but don't hand it over.
-if it's the deceased's footage: you're tampering with the scene if you touch it....

Personally, I wouldn't want footage of me ending up on tv or in a "check this out" e-mail....

 
Great post.

I know youre just gagging Skin, but thats Tom As mentality, not mine!

Now get that thing out of your mouth.

I think seeing them through it shows a lot for character and helps out in the recovery if there is one. I was seen through mine and it helped knowing that my bros were there. Maybe it’s the way I have grown up in the various lifestyles but sticking with has always proved better than splitting the blame.

Here are a few examples of things that I have seen that are inexcusable and irreversible;
-Leaving after an accident having the only vehicle, even if there is prodding to do so. This just shows that you have that seed planted and will bail in the future.
-Putting newbie skydivers off an object with absolutely no idea what you are doing and almost killing them, then allowing the blame to go on someone else.
-Recruiting newbie skydivers to BASE jump.
-Forcing your BASE antics on people through your video camera at the local dz. This is jsut bad form to me. Playing a vid on the monitor for all to see is not what I am talking about.

Sticking with your buddies, knowing your opposition, and treading lightly. Anyone with half a personality can figure out how to deal with people and logically deduct whether it’s worth the trouble to hang or go on their own accord.

Look for, "The Pact" it's something i wrote years ago and is out there on the web, somewhere . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I hear what you're saying and I'd have to agree with most of it. <inon>

Jason

agreed... great post

You're not kidding about somewhere. Sheesh!

This link goes to the main page. Click on "Articles" and the essay in question is the fifth one down.

Permission requested to copy it here in its entirety so it doesn't get lost again.

rl

Thanks, R/L, but like most writers I read that again with an eye I could have wriiten it better, but the point remains figure out what you are going to do ahead of time, and realize you're playing a deadly grown up's game . . .

NickD
BASE 194

We are the sum of all we've done, not only who we are today.

I'll grant you there are a couple of typos, but that's just because you're a guy, and all in all, I think it's pretty well done.

But there's still time; I can delete the link.

No. I'll sink or swim on it . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Definitely a good read, just as the rest of the articles/postings I have read of yours

 

Nick that was a good read. Especially relating past event to the present. A lot of us new guys don't know the roots of the "Jam Rule" and where it was used.

My point is; If you jump with people it's not to just have people there. If that were the case then do it on your own. It is to have jumpers there that you trust and rely on for advise and to give me the countdown when it sticks on two. When shit happens, I also want to be there for them when my bro/sis is in agony or to get them in a better mood after the fuzz pisses on the fun. No one is gonna accept responsibility, if even partial, for something I did. Especially if it was my gear.

 

Interesting. Some people say: "if it is not on video, it did not happen..."
BTW, I would like to have it erased too.

Ronald Overdijk
www.liveskyproductions.nl

Watched a doccie last night on the Black Hawk Down incident in Mogadishu and your post reminded me of the Ranger Creed: Never leave a man behind.

"I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy"

That's what I'm getting at. This is, in one form or another, in every creed that matters. I knew a few of the Mog guys.

This reminds me of someone I once knew!!! Nice post Bro!

Amen to that. Unless a buddy is seriously injured and can't be moved there's no way i'm leaving him behind, in any sport or outdoor activity. And if he can't be moved i'll assess the situation and either go for help or sit tight based on his condition.


Wow. I have the utmost respect for everyone involved in that incident.

I think that rationally I have to agree with Ray that it's easier to manage one story, and one person in custody. So if only one person is needed to care for the injured, I'd generally say it's best for everyone else to split with the gear.

Several years ago, I was struck by something Adam Filipino said, discussing this topic.

"We play a high stakes game called BASE. We are also involved in being human beings."

Thinking about this, I realized that I just can't leave an injured guy after a jump (or heck, any other time, really), unless that's the only way to summon help. I, personally, am just not wired that way. I'm not sure what's at the root of this, but the bottom line is that I wouldn't be happy with myself if I left an injured jumper behind.

So I don't begrudge those who bail. And if they're going, I'll send my gear with them. Rationally, I think that getting people out of harms way is a better course.

But I also understand those who simply must stay, because I'm one of them.

It's a tough topic. It's something that really needs to be discussed with your jumping group before you jump. And, like everything else BASE, it's got a large element of personal choice involved.

I agree that there might be a couple courses of action that people can take after something bad happens and I know that talking about the what ifs can be hard enough to talk about that sometimes the talks don't happen.

I would have to bow to more experience in this but will say that self preservation is the true showing of a person's future intentions.

More than likely there will be people who will bail on demand. That's too bad but it will show you who to jump with. I don't possess the care to find two jammers and two guys who are gonna stick around to make sure I'm cool.

I've only been on a few illegal jumps, and on my second one I hit a tree, landed hard, and shattered my right tibia. I don't think the guys I jumped with had any thought of leaving me, just as I had no thought of calling 911. They helped me out of my gear, out of the street, and to the nearby emergency room. It all turned out fine, no busts, even though we hadn't discussed this before hand.

I ground crewed recently for another illegal jump, and as soon as the jumpers were over the fence the local said "in for a penny, in for a pound", and we all three agreed that if something unfortunate happened we'd stick around and see it through.

Now I absolutely have the presence of mind to discuss this with the people on the load before jumping. Some people say "get the hell out of here, one of us going down is enough", and others of us couldn't imagine leaving an injured or dead jumper to lay there alone. I'm with Tom; I'd be the one staying while the rest bail with the gear and cameras, unless someone else on the load wanted that slot. The important thing is having it all organized before hand.

Another good thing to do is have your personal desires written up and signed and in your wallet. You know, a disclaimer or waiver to let authorites know that you did this of your own free will, you do not want any entity sued for damages to your person, a DNR if that's what you prefer, no heroic measures or life support, and your blood type and medicinal allergies.

Recently there was discussion on a thread about what people thought their chances were of getting hurt or killed on a BASE jump. I was amazed to see how many people think they are bullet-proof and don't need to plan ahead or take measures to ensure no major fiascos ensue. Every time you jump you take your life into your own hands, and if your skill or luck run out, you're in a world of hurt. I think one of the best things we can do as BASE jumpers to help our activity avoid so much discrimination and supression is to be responsible for ourselves and make our arrangements ahead of time. This includes preparing your family or next of kin, talking to the jumpers on the load before the jump, and having appropriate insurances to avoid costly bills for yourself, your loved ones, or the government to pay on your behalf. If we take these simple but important steps, when the inevitable incidents occur we can avoid looking like crazy freaks with no regard for the consequences of our actions (even though many of us are quite proud of being crazy freaks)!

Ok, I digress...this is a good thread and a great discussion.

Be safe, have fun, and soft landings!
Karen

I, Space, Have ratted out my BASE Bro's to the Authorities.
I had no choice, Their copter was buzzing around the LZ approach and using our LZ at the TW of Italy. The pilot of the carabinari (sp) buzzed them on the ridge 30m away, The Polizia thanked me. Don't try this at USA home.
Probs arrive when the jumpers (70%?)have cameras doing illegal stuff. Back before the turn of the century, I did a jump , escaped the rangers in Yosemite and my friends got busted and held true to the code. Aint so easy with vid and stills to not tell.
think,
take care,
space

There have been a good bit of great replies, some good some not so good. I feel this thread has been good as a whole and for those of you that are mentors or FJC teachers, well heck all of us can learn something from this thread.

One specific change is that I wrote a letter and put it in my wallet in case something happens at an object.

Le Roy

Thanks for the critique. I'm sure the entire community values it as useful feedback.

With regard to the note. Are your crew expected to rifle through your shit when you inevitably fuck things up?

Tom Aiello once wrote regarding the subject of what you would do if someone went in. I think it applies to all cases including injuries and not just splats.
Tom said something like...I will do whatever it takes for me to get a good nights sleep. That for me was the first interesting departure from the accepted wisdom. The victim is generally unable to make a decision or suffering to that point that their state of mind cannot be assumed to be trustworthy. In that event, the removal of the victim from the decision makes the most sense.

If you jump with me, know that I will react in the way of MY choosing not yours. I will do whatever is necessary for me to live the rest of my life with the knowledge of the consequences of that decision bearing on my conscience. Don't even expect me to be consistant. I will be consistant in that I will base my decision on the context of the situation but the outcome may change.

For instance, Leroy, for the quality of your posts and the volume of your bullshit and your needy, jumping in the air crying "look at me, look at me" style of making inane and banal responses to other posts in every thread...I will sleep just fine when I leave you in the tree to be picked up by the pigs.



I will now enjoy my 30 day enforced loss of privileges. Cy'all in July.

BAHHHHAhHHHAHHHAAAAAA...... see you in 30..........

Love it...


I won't leave ya Leroy...I will go to great lengths to avoid ever jumping with you, and therefore will never have to leave you hanging...

Edited to say: Thanx Skin! Your personal sacrifice will be forever appreciated...

How will you leave him in a tree when you wouldn't even jump with him?

rl

Personal attack. 14 days.

Outstanding!

dude, you never cease to keep my laughing.

glad i came back to read all this!

Twice the value at half the price.

It was a very clever, very funny post. On the other hand, I wonder if any of you has ever read Heinlein's discussion of humor in Stranger in a Strange Land.

Anyway, I'll bet anything you guys want to name that Le Roy would never leave any of you.

rl

Amen.

Has already happened to someone in the area... still want to bet??

I heard of an incident that happened before I started jumping where one jumper broke his back at the bottom of a canyon and his buddy just covered him up in his parachute and left. No phone calls to rescue services or cops, nothing. just left him for dead.
I later met the guy that left his buddy and I refused to jump with him or even stand in his presence. I don't hang with shit bags.
If that where me that he had left at the bottom of that cliff, then as soon as I was able, I would become the instrument of Karma the moment I saw him again.

Sure, minimize the impact of impact by the ways already mentioned in earlier posts, but never leave a breathing brother or sister behind

I'll bet, but if I lose, I'm paying Skin, not you.

And if this is a rehash of the sonic bullshit of several months ago, I don't even want to hear it. Either he left wounded or dead behind or he didn't. The convolutia (yes, I made up the word--it's short for convoluted minutia) is too much for my small mind to comprehend.

rl

I don't know what happened in that case, but it might be considered in the context of the time it happened. While legal opportunities to jump have increased when it wasn't like that there are many for whom, one more bust, and they are in very deep shit.

Jumping with those already busted X times for BASE jumping and on probation. The first time it's funny because nine out of ten times it's a new one on the judge. The second or third time and the system overlooks the nature of the offense and it's only a matter of passing this way too many times. Throw in a family and job not to be lost and you have a BASE jumper loving the sport but playing with fire.

The thing with "the Pact" is two, or more, experienced BASE jumpers can get together and agree that each other's goods are their own look out. It's a thing that made some early BASE jumps even possible. It's a corner of the sport that's dark and clammy, but one used to defeat our enemies. In some cases it gave us a measure of control over one more aspect of things when any of those aspects could defeat us.

The Pact seems outdated, in these modern times, but I see the sacrifice it took to get us here. Swayze jumping the tower alone, the Pick whistling in off Half Dome, Mike Allen just wanting to get to that next tower . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Not wounded or Dead but he left a freind hanging about 150feet off the ground on a tower guyed wire. I was called in to assist in the 9 hour rescue with the fire department and the cops there, then I had to drive the guy to the police station while being followed by the cops so he could be charged. Damn thing was that I wasn't even on that load. But this does fall in line with "The SONIC Bullshit" you so don't want to hear about.

You know I love ya Nick but I have to call bullshit on that. I did not start jumping in the era of the legal sights. My first 300 jumps where at night. That is the time in which I started jumping and that is the context in which I formed my opinion.
There is no shit deeper than being broken, and left for dead. For what? Jail time or a job? Fuck your job. You can get another. Fuck jail time. You will get out one day. And if you have a family depending on you to be employed, out of jail or alive, then grow up and make responsible choices or have the courage to face the consequences. Don't make your buddy pay the ultimate price because your scared of the can. When the buddy left for dead stops breathing, he can never be replaced. EVER.

Cowardice is cowardice and in my book it is inexcusable regardless of context or time.
I suppose that the real lesson here is choose your friends carefully.
I hope that you your self would never advocate bailing on a bro, particularly in light of the piggy back ride you received all those years ago.

What you did is to your credit.

Unfortunately, details are important in these situations, and as I understand it, some of them are missing re Le Roy's part in all of this.

Just for the record, hanging from the wire is, from an ethical standpoint, no different than being wounded. That's just IMO, of course.

But the last thing I'm going to do is get into a pissing contest. "Yes, he did; no, he didn't" is for children. The fact is that I was not there, and there's no way for me to know for certain what is true.

I do, however, know something both about character and characters, and as I said above, I'm pretty sure some of the relevant details are absent.

Does the friend who was left hanging post here?

rl

Addendum to my reply, because I can't seem to get it to accept the edit:

I am equivocating up above and it's bullshit on me, so let me be plain. What I believe is that Le Roy left the scene in his car, with the gear, and that after he returned the gear to the dz, he returned to a place close to the scene, and waited--cell phone in hand--in the event he was needed. I believe that telephone calls were exchanged. I believe that there are other small details that are not relevant, so I'm not going to bother with them. I am totally convinced that had any of the other three people on the load (okay, two, since the one hanging really wasn't in position for conversation) assigned him a different role--even perhaps allowing another to drive his car away--he'd have done what was required to play his part.

What I can't believe is that you guys can be so harsh about such bullshit.

What Kevin McGuire is talking about up above is not bullshit. I know the <expletive deleted> who did it--and another one who did something worse in Colorado--and both of them would do it again because they're nothing more than <descriptive expletives deleted>.

Why don't you talk about a really important issue instead of this endless repetition of hateful behavior against someone who continues to try to be better.

<end lecture>

Hey Tom, why don't you let me do Skin's penance on his behalf. I need a rest from this, and I won't take one unless you make me, because I still haven't learned how to stop beating my head against a brick wall.

rl

There were 4 people total on the load, Leroy is the only one that left and he left with the car. One of the guys called me and told me what had happened and that Leroy hauled ass with his car and I advised them to call the fire department. My wife and I along with another couple drove out to the tower to pick up the ones that were left behind and to assist in any way possible. out of the 3 guys that were left behind 2 of them were charged and the other mingled into the crowd that had gathered and caught a ride home with us.
Evidently you heard poor leroys side of the story.You know the one that makes him look like the concerned hero!
This whole thread is about leaving people behind and Im just telling you the facts that were brought up by another person that had posted above mine. And NO! the guy that was stuck in the wires does not post on here because he isnt a BASE jumper. That was his first and last BASE jump. The other 2 that were left behind post on here and should be posting shortly. Also that night I called Leroy myself to ask him were the hell he was and he told me that he had gone home........He did not stay close by waiting thats bullshit.

Guys,

Let's not turn this into a re-re-re-hash of the NC threads I locked a while back.

There is good discussion here. The re-coverage of the NC tower strike incident, and/or replay of NC turf politics are not included in my definition of "good discussion."

I don't want to have to prune out the last half of the thread, because there are some useful thoughts (like Kevin's) interspersed in there. But if it comes to it, I'll do that.

Okay?

NO PROBLEM HERE!!!!!!!! I was just responding the Rhondas post..........post #42 of this thread.

i'm a little disgusted that this even being brought back up. but i will reply because john said i would. not just because he is one of my best friends, but because i am the one who called him for advice and to come help us if he could.

also, don't be so quick to defend anyone you've never jumped with or met in person. [/end lecture]

not sure what exactly you think is REALLY IMPORTANT, but i can scan through a hundred threads that are complete bullshit compared to people being lured into a attention seeker who wants you to believe that he is "doing better".

just ask tom how mature he is being.

Hi Tom

I partially agree with you. I don't believe that you should leave an injured jumper behind. Unless it is for the sole purpose of improving their chances of survival by attempting to get assistance. This all depends on the extent of injuries.

And here is my disagreement part.

There are absolutely NO F%$#@cking circumstances where ANY jumper should leave ANY injured colleague behind if there is any doubt as to the survivability of that jumper if left alone. Avoiding getting caught IS NOT an acceptable reason.

If you are 100% certain that the jumper will be OK until rescue gets there, OK. But you HAVE TO BE 100% certain.

This is basic human decency. And if any of us assume the role of the injured, we would hope that our MATES, would help us. We should return this expectation.

We had a story here a number of years ago where an injured jumper had to cut his canopy up with his hook knife to keep himself warm overnight and prevent death by hypothermia in a cold mountain climate (there's another use for a hook knife huh). There was opportunity for that person to be recovered earlier.

This discussion also promotes tha validity of communication & preparation when undertaking wilderness jumps.

1 - Tell someone where you are going.
2 - Tell them when you are expected to return (probable and worst case).
3 - Take some basic rescue and first aid gear.
4 - Communication - take radios, etc and determine how rescue can be contacted when you are in the wilderness (i.e. rescue frequencies and what devices are capable of maintaining range).
5 - Don't push the limits excessively. You should factor rescue in the complexity of your jump. It would suck if you died of a broken ankle because no-one knew where you were.
6 - etc.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom