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Does anybody know of any documented line-overs on tailgated canopied that did not self-clear?

All video I have seen of line-overs on tailgated canopies have been self clearing.

In no way does this message or the resulting discussion diminish the usefulness of the LRM. I'm just curious.

Hey, what's the worst that can happen?

It should diminish the use of LRM. It is largely outdated, unneccessary and contains a plethora of inherent problems. You will find that there are very, very few cases of a tailgated line over that did not self clear (or that was successfully cleared and landed via LRM), however almost everyone will call you silly for choosing not to use the line mod when using a tailgate. Go figure.

i've witnessed one example of this. it wasn't documented though. the line mod came in handy.

The problems I see are:

A bigger need for multiple brake settings.

You might accidentally lose a toggle and have to land on rear-risers even when you don't have a line-over.

It's probably more a matter of opinion and priorities than experience.

The main problem with the LRM is changing it over when doing slider up/down jumps. This is an unnecessary complication that if done wrong or forgotten about can be disastrous. Yes, it shouldn't be done wrong in the first place but we all know it can happen. This is the main problem I see, and for me is far from moot.

Another is dropped toggles. I may see this as a bigger problem than you because I would find it very undesirable to have to rear-riser into some of the landing areas I frequent if I drop a toggle when blowing the brakes for some reason.

Another is the increased hassle of using it. I don't particularly like the flight characteristics (but you are right, this would be easily overcome if I used it more). I like having the brakes routed the same on every jump. I hate messing around with tangled brake lines during packing.

Brake settings have little to do with it. I don't use LRM and have three settings.

Because of this, I see the use of the LRM as illogical. If you put any serious work into trying to track down slider down, tailgated line-overs that were cleared by the LRM you will not find more than a few (if any). That is within a sample range of however many tens of thousand jumps on this configuration have been done. Thus, the minute risk is justified due to the fact that I am also eliminating the problems I mentioned above.

Most people still see it as essential. I don't get it.

I always use a tailgate and have a hook knife.

Edited to add:

Some people could argue that by essentially saying that you will always use a tailgate to control the fact that you may not always re-route your brakes, you are merely "swapping the witch for the bitch". This has some merit, but I believe my basis is still sound.

Jumping slider-down without a tailgate will NOT AUTOMATICALLY result in a line-over. Jumping slider-up without the brake lines routed through the slider and keeper rings will DEFINITELY be bad.

We all make our choices.

I've got good video of a tailgated lineover. Are you using line release toggles of some kind? Or a hook knife?

Most (nearly all) jumpers are told to pack with the LRM when going slider down/off, yet I've not been witness to much discussion or training over it's actual use.

Put another way - I think there's many ppl who jump with this option yet are not really competent or dialled-in to an emergeny procedure or plan for dealing with a line-over with the LRM, for example at around 100' or under.

Given that lineovers are now extremely rare with the tailgate being commonplace, most newer jumpers are not given the chance to see it's use in action and I think that if faced with the rare event of a lineover in the SL-down environment, there wouldn't be much altitude to deal with it anyway - especially in the sub-200' environment and with some of the sites Jesse and others regularly frequent.

I do use the LRM but I know that there's many times I'm doing a jump that the altitude or obstacles render the LRM pretty useless.

Just a thought.

g.

Wouldn't it be better to encourage practicing (in a relatively safe environment, before you have to do it for real) the use of this (or any) safety feature, rather than eliminate it?

Yes. I think people should be introduced to the LRM, encouraged to use it for their initial jumps and be made aware of its limitations and potential problems.

Then they can make their own decision.

Is there any possibility you could upload this somewhere with the jumpers permission?

Was this line-over cleared by the LRM and landed succesfully?

And out of curiousity, was there any follow up speculation on the cause of the line-over besides just having bad luck? Maybe contributions from the winds or a hasty packjob?

Thanks,

Jaap

In my first year as a jumper I questioned the need for the LRM, I know some people are so confident with the TG that they dont jump with the LRM.

My thoughts were if you are not likely to get a LO then surely not having the LRM would be more benifical for a break fire (which is probably more common). After discussion with many and much more experienced jumpers I decided against jumping without the LRM.

I dont have a problem landing on rears should I have a breakfire, and if I have a lineover on a SD jump even with the TG (as has happened) then surely popping and dropping is quicker than getting a hook knife and cutting.

If I have a LO SD then generally I am opening (or used to) at anything from 50ft to 200ft and I would rather pop and drop from these altitudes than try and cut and control - if you are worried about landing on rears, then you should practice some more, landing on rear risers should never be an issue you cant deal with.

I would rather use a TG and LRM as 2 cures of a problem (although the TG is not exaclty a cure of LO but of Tail Inversion) are going to be better than only 1...........

IMHO

Have you seen premature brake releases on cloth stub toggles? I've only seen it happen with pin toggles.

I accidentally lost a toggle this weekend. I was doing a rear-floater. As I reached for my rear-risers to turn around my left thumb dissapeared into the big-grab toggle. When I pulled down to fly backwards the toggle came off. This happened quickly and it didn't register until I turned away, let go of my risers and tried grabbing my toggles. The left one was gone.

I'll have to study where I'm grabbing my risers to avoid this in the future. I think I need to grab a little higher. Interesting to note that it was the big-grab-ness of the toggles that allowed this to happen. Every advantage can have a disadvantage.

I'm glad you weren't downtown trying to turn away from building after a bad opening . . .

While I've used them too can anyone tell me the point of big grab toggles? Are we becoming toggle grabbers in an emergency? When I saw the video of Slim hitting the cliff his releasing the toggles instead of rear riser turning himself away was a mistake, right? Or are we being taught that these days?

In the same vein I was watching the video from the Mexican big wall and not only is that LZ not small (try Angel Falls for small) what's up with all the front riser turn and burn-in approaches? Is there a disconnect occurring between flying high aspect ratio canopy at the DZ and flying low aspect ratio BASE canopies?

Did anyone read the current issue of SKYDIVING? There's an article where several "experienced" skydivers are whining their highly wing loaded low aspect ratio reserves are stalling early and landing them hard. These are 200 pound out the door slaves to fashion jumping 120 sq. ft. seven cell low aspect ratio reserves. Hello! Anybody home?

Are we seeing new BASE jumpers with the same idea? The first few generations in BASE usually had some low aspect ratio canopy time at the DZ prior to BASE. Now they don't, unless they seek it out. Sometimes their first "seven cell" is a reserve ride or a BASE jump. Anyone see that recent video clip on "Sport's Disasters"? A guy has a malfunction, does a cutaway to a good Raven and then he front riser turns himself in the ground breaking all kinds of bones. It was obvious it was the only way he knew how to land and he made no deference to what's over his head . . .

I'm confused . . . that "they" are so confused. And it doesn't bode well for the future.

NickD
BASE 194

I don't think I made it under the bridge (pending video) so at worst it would have made my landing a little trickier.


Welcome to a sport that is on its way to mainstream. I've been looking into sharkfucking recently. I hear it's even more dangerous than BASE and still underground. I expect it'll take at least five years before MTV catches on. Who's with me?

I guess I'm with ya. Although I've tried it a few times before when I was bored while underwater (my commercial diving days) I didn't like it that much. Maybe another go will change my mind!

I think brake settings were a big issue in Slim's cliff strike.

I thought the same thing when I watched the Mexico video, that is a great landing area. I also wondered if that guy that hit wall at the end even set his brakes. It looked atrocious.

That's kind of what I thought. With the brakes set very deep it makes rear riser flight dicey. . .

NickD
BASE 194

Been there done that. If you are the giver use lots of lube; sharks' ass is rough If you are the taker you might have the time of your life

As for the big grab toggles this is not the first time I hear a similar incident. Are yours the really big ones? I have not seen your set up over the week-end.

Hello,
That landing area is tough, really.
Certainly comparable to Angel Falls in size and access.
The outs are as forbidding, just sharper.
The altitude plays here, @ approx 4500 AMSL.
Everybody was coming in fast.
Especially the Jedi with the canopy from "those guys".
You know they jumped right out of a box and made a BASE swoop canopy!
Kids.
D obviously has lots of experience on the canopy.

AF88

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm teaching riser corrections to avoid imminent impact, followed by toggles (once no longer pointed at the object) to conserve altitude.

I jump Vertigo Syko toggles. I really like them so far. The lines come in from the side. This makes it impossible to confuse your steering lines and stow them crossed.

I just put on my harness and tied the riser off to something. It turned out to be nearly impossible to do what I described above. It required too much force on the thumb. This leads me to believe that my toggle may have partially released before I reached up for it and that my rear-riser grab was just the last nudge to push it off.

I'm not sure what would have caused this release. I check if my toggles are still properly stowed when dressing up my risers, right before the first fold in the container.

Too little information and too much speculation I'm afraid. The bottom line is that if you use the LRM you need to be prepared to land on rear-risers.

Did you see Russel's ring-release riser system? It appears to be a good way to use LRM without the possibility of losing a toggle to a premature release. I've only put about 30 jumps on it so far, but my results have been good.

I haven't. Can you explain how it works, how it differs from the WLO toggles and what's required to release the toggles?

Speaking of WLO's, does anybody use them on slider down jumps? Judging from the five skydives I've done with my WLO toggles -releasing them every time- I wouldn't be surprised if one could release their WLOs just as fast as one could unstow a toggle and throw it away.

An additional benefit is that the toggle remains on the riser, meaning there's only a clean line dissapearing, reducing the risk of entanglement. Although I'm not sure how much of a risk this actually is, I've been taught to throw the steering line away backwards and to the side.

It would also reduce the amount of rigging required when switching from slider down to slider up.

I'm talking about the Vertigo WLO toggles by the way, which I think are great. I haven't seen them from other manufacturers, but I have heard they require more steps to undo.

Mmmm, I'll have to put some more thought into this. Any showstoppers I'm overlooking?

I know that some people had trouble with the pins getting bent on slider down stuff, and I believe the manufacturer said they wouldn't recommend using them for slider down.

I'll let Russel post a description of his system.

And while we're talking about line-overs anyway; I've never had one. Does anybody see any problems with packing one intentionally on a skydive using a base canopy with WLO toggles?

I suppose it could burn the topskin of my canopy, but other than that I don't see too many problems. Open plenty high. Be prepared for a spinning opening, potentially resulting in line-twist (which could make it impossible to use WLO), use the WLO, or worst case scenario use plan B, land safely, drink beer.

Any advice for how to best pack a line-over? I've talked to one experienced jumper who tried really hard to pack intentional line-overs at the Perrine in the pre-tailgate days, but she never managed to do it.

That's exactly the kind of information I was hoping for. I guess that idea is off then. Thanks!

I'm surprised. The brake-loop is stowed almost at the bottom of the pin, not in the middle. It just goes to show how much force an opening exerts on the brake-settings.

Out of curiousity, does anybody agree that a WLO release can be just as fast and clean as a LRM release? Given that, isn't there a market for stronger pins?

Yes, and yes.

I suspect that one of the things that keeps the brake set is the friction between the line and the cloth stub, which is greatly reduced with a smooth metal pin.

packing one intentionally = the anti-nugget

But I knew he was just kidding.

Ok, I’ll try not to make this too long.

First let me explain the intent of the idea. A while back I read about Faber’s accident landing rear risers and ending up with a broken leg. I then heard another one or two similar cases. So, I figured landing on rears was a bad thing. I didn’t know at the time that we should all practice this and be proficient at it. Then I thought to myself this would be very bad if it happened to me one day in the future if/when I do ground landings. My idea was to attempt to eliminate blowing a toggle on opening but still make it just as easy to clear a line over when doing slider down jumps. I talked to several people, a rigger and even to a BASE manufacturer and no one thought it would be a great idea for the masses but maybe a good idea for me.

Now I’ll do my best in trying to explain the setup. Essentially the keeper ring is permanently on the brake line and is cutaway each time the brake is unstowed. If you were to have a brake line blow on opening the toggle would get pulled up to the keeper ring and stay there. The moment you pull the toggle down you cutaway the keeper ring. This keeps with the idea of the LRM in the fact the even using these risers, if you have a lineover all you do is unstow the toggle, automatically cutting away the keeper ring, and toss it. The keeper ring is held in place just like the small ring on a 3-ring release system is. A white loop goes through the ring then through a grommet and then a bit of standard yellow cutaway cable goes through the white loop. One end of the yellow cutaway cable is sewn into the toggle but protrudes out the side and goes up, through the white loop, and the free end is inserted into a sleeve.

Maybe Tom could post a picture of the risers. He still has them. Tom’s graciously been the test jumper for me (20 slider down and 10 slider up so far) and he seems to think they work pretty well and that they may have their own little niche. I’ll let him comment on that.

There are downsides to this system. The biggest one I can think of is that it does make setting the brakes a little more complicated and takes a little bit more time.

That’s the best I can do in describing the setup. I’ve now gone through several revisions of this post and this is as good as it gets! If you’ve got questions about how they felt or functioned you’d have to ask Tom (sorry Tom) but in an attempt to keep Tom less busy if you have any questions about their design I can probably answer them.

It’s funny, now that I think I’m done doing slider down jumps this idea seems moot to me.

I'll embarrassingly admit that I wasn't entirely kidding.

The line-overs that I've seen happen on large canopies resulted in a slow enough spin that they wouldn't scare me that much. Just to stress; this would be done on a skydive, pulling around 6k.

Can you elaborate on why it is a bad idea?

Obviously I'm breaking something that isn't broken and therefore increasing risk. However, I'm pretty sure that my 20 practices jumps with intentional LRM brake-releases and WLO releases prepared me for last weekends accidental release. I can see a line-over is a whole different game than the minor inconvenience a brake-release should be, but if I can experience it first in controlled test-environment, I'll be better prepared when it happens in BASE.

That said, if somebody with more base jumps than I tells me it's an anti-nugget, that's a pretty good sign it's not a good idea.

Thanks!

Thanks Russel. I can't entirely envision the cut-away part, but I get the underlying idea.

Has Tom done any test jumps where he barely mated the velcro on the toggle so it would blow, testing how well the keeper would hold?

Mmm, I'm going to throw your description in a bowl. Then add the WLO's, stronger and thicker pins, some home-grown sewing and three pounds of sugar. Stir, mix, place in oven for twenty minutes, and we'll see what kind of crappy new invention I can come up with. That'll pass a windy weekend.

Thanks,

Jaap Suter

I knew I wouldn't do a good job.



Yes he did. I deleted the e-mail he sent me saying what he did exactly. He tried a few things if I recall correctly. The one I do remember is that he used thin string of some type to artificially set the brake instead of putting it through the eye of the brake line. On opening the thin string broke and blew the toggle. He said it worked as designed and the toggle was held in place by the keeper ring which then cutaway when the toggle was released.

I'll shoot him an e-mail to see if he can post some pictures of the setup. Does Tom even own a digital camera?

Thanks, but I don't want to be too much of a bother. I'll come check out the setup next time I'm in Twin Falls Tom, thanks!

Several. So far I've done:

(a) don't mate the toggle at all
(b) set the brake above the keeper ring (so it slides off)
(c) use a thin strand of floss to simulate a brake setting, which broke at opening

If you have any other ideas for some tests to try, I'd love to do those, too.

I've also made several attempts at getting the ring to dislodge during opening, but so far I haven't found a way to get it to come loose.

Yes I have seen 2 brake fires with the cloth stub toggles (one from 400ft Freefall 2 sec delay and one from a 225ft freefall 1 sec delay). Not sure what the end result of investigation was. There was no injury from these.

Hi Jaap...

If you do decide to pack yourself an intentional line over, please make sure you have a belly-mount reserve as well as your normal reserve. This is a requirement by USPA for any intentional cut-aways, and if you don't do this and the dz gets wind of it, they could ground you or worse. Intentional cutaways have their place in the scheme of things; just make sure you've covered all the safety aspects to ensure your survival. We want you to live!

That being said...if you want to pack a line over, what step of the packjob would you skip or even reverse? (This is a test...)

Peace, and BE SAFE!
Karen

>>The altitude plays here, @ approx 4500 AMSL<<

Thanks, Avery, that's a fact I didn't realize, but wouldn't that call for "larger" BASE canopies and better steep approach skills? I kind of giggle when I see "Go Fast" on a BASE canopy when I know we'd be better off with, "Go Slow . . ."

NickD
BASE 194

Hello,
Yes indeed.
I'm a big fan of Mojo 260's.
I jumped the Ace 220 once @ EG,
then after I got up off my butt I put it away.
D's approach was different........
Avery
EG12

Good thing I live in Canada.

Seriously though, I've used the bellymount before when taking my base-container and -canopy for some skydives. I see no reason not to use it on this one either.


I agree, but this wouldn't be an intentional cutaway. Am I grosly overrating the effectiveness of WLO toggles here? I would have figured that my chances of just clearing the line-over with WLO and then landing on risers would be very big. Is that not so?


Mmm, good question. I figured I would take the steering line, wrap it arond the top of the canopy before pulling it down back to the risers to stow them. This will distort the packjob but I think not enough to cause a problem. I would still do a line-continuity check if that's what you're referring to. I only want my steering line to go over, not my C or D lines. From your post it seems like there is a more obvious or easier way to pack a line-over that I am overlooking. Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

Jaap Suter

Does this mean I need to return your extra rings back to you? They're still on my harness.

Yeah, we forgot about those when I was in LA. My fault. Can you send them back? No hurry.

Photos of the ring-release riser system are here.

Thanks Tom!

Do you trust its hold-strength on opening-shock well enough that you would dare using it on slider-up jumps? If one would use flat toggles (as opposed to big-grabs) you could release the toggles and then punch them through the slider-grommets on a line-over.

Substantially slower than WLOs, but an interesting concept, and maybe safer and faster than hookknifing the line.

Thanks for posting those Tom!

I have used it on around 10 slider up jumps. I'll do some more.

I'm not sure about punching the toggle through the slider. I was more thinking that it might work well in conjunction with WLO's.