Basejumper.com - archive

I've done my best to hide it for years, but I'm finally ready to admit it... I have problems standing it up.

I fly a Fox 245 VTec (no valves) loaded at very nearly 0.7:1. My landing areas tend to be at 3,000-4,000 feet MSL in dry air. I consider myself a good 7-cell canopy pilot -- I've been jumping this setup for better than 80 jumps (over four years), and competed in CRW for a couple of years before I started into BASE.

In moderate (say, coming up on 5 mph) and better winds, I can stand up my landings without a problem, consistently. I can sink it in, I can come in out of a turn... It's all good. No wind, though, and I'm useless -- I either come skidding in on my hands and knees (three cheers for the guy who invented gloves and armour, by the way) or drop out of the sky unceremoniously to a nearly ankle-breaking stop.

... Which seems odd to me, since I should (in theory) be able to execute the same landing I do in higher winds, and walk it out. But anyway...

I was hoping somebody here could offer a little advice on landing this sort of configuration in no winds. Failing that, perhaps you might enjoy a chuckle at my expense?

I was taught pretty early on that stand-up landings in the BASE environment can be somewhat dicey. You can easily land on uneven ground, hit a rock or divot and twist the heck out of your ankle.

Plus it's a great excuse for ugly landings... "Hey man, I'm just being SAFE!"

Demo another canopy...... and even in a larger size......... I own 3 seperate sized canopies for "Optimal" landings(which don't exist always!!). I personally like Daggers...... they feel a bit sexy(speedy)..... but land with the strongest flare of all.(just my .02)

I'm assuming you did, but I'll ask anyway; did you tune the position of your toggles?

Have you done any rear riser landings in zero winds? Oddly enough I have found rear riser landings to be softer than some of my flared landings, until I properly tuned my toggle setting. I'm not sure what that means, but it surprised me.

did youconsidder the 5th line mod on your fox? i didnt liked it but it gives you a more powerfull flare.

If you dont want that then try "hitting the brakes" at the last moment(dont hook in),and you might even get a slight swoop..

Ive had the same problem on my Fox but after practice im getting better..

And as Blair said its safe to PLF(when your foot aint getting caught or snag somthing)

Hi,

I have the same problem. I have about 400 jumps on my v-tec without valves ... I actually send in back after the 20-30 first jumps on it, but it is a feature *smile*

Zero winds and landing on payment, ouch!

You can ad a extra breakline or the better alternative, put valves in it. Apex and other manufactures retrofit valves.

I have more rigs and my v-tec is old so for me it is questionable if it is worth it but if you have a "newer" canopy ... get the money and do it

PerFlare

I've made 54 BASE jumps and stood up all but 3.
I have short arms (im 5'8") and attatch mt toggles about 6"up the lines from where suggesyed. so far so good.
-J

Jamie,
That's because you got the Mojo flowing. Hope you have a good time in Europe, I plan on making the trip next year.

I did my first BASE jump a year ago today. It's been an interesting year huh Ody?
Got the Black Jack flowing too now
I'll make a few for you this Mem day.
~J

I still remember " I'm Rick James Bitch" How about that top shelf "El Presidente' Margarita. Its only lunch time.
I got a black jack also. Havn't jumped it yet. Ill get around to it come december when I get back.

Ody,
I have your black jack! It lands great. You have done enough for us back home, you didnt have to go and give me your brand new Black Jack. I was surprised how strong it was, the barb wire only put six small holes in it when I ripped it off the fence.

Safety Nate

just doing what I can to help spread democracy.

That explains it

VTec without valves has a very poor flare, compared to a regular valved or non-vtec canopy. It sinks down better, but the price for that is inferior glide and flare.

I put V-Tec on one of my older Foxes, and the flare has suffered dramaticaly (i could directly compare it to my second non-vtec Fox).

bsbd!

Yuri.

It sounds like to me that you may have to take your toggle position up higher so that the tail comes down farther for flare.Have you had someone video your landings in these conditions and others.Video is a wonderful tool that should always be utilized.Sounds like you just need to readjust your toggle setting,or just take a rap.Hope this helps.

Ha ha that brings back good memories. That sure was a fun BASE Camp we had. Its good to see your still alive Bryan. When you coming home? Were going flickin when you do.

Bryan, are you back from Iraq?

I have found that most people with an unvalved canopy have problems standing it up in fast conditions..............

I thought this might be something to do with the air spilling from the vents on flaring and loosing a bit of performance............

but maybe my thinking is wrong?

Edit to add: I see someone else posted the same thought.............

No I'm still stuck in this shit hole of a country. I'll be home around Thanksgiving time. Probobly not soon enough for the turkey boogie. The family might get a little pissed if I get home and leave the next day to go BASE jump in Utah.

I have an mdv troll, this canopy is also hard to stand up with no wind, it just seems to run out of flare long before I have stoped. I have actually flaredas far down as I could, then grabed both toggles in one hand, and reached back up for a handful of lines to flare some more. But with a little bit of wind it lands great

mmmm............. my mdv lands just fine...

I'd say you have the toggles set wrong. Have you tried moving them up the lines?

Toggle placement, like brake settings and tailgate location, ought to be customized for each jumper/canopy combination.

If you grind up a couple viagra and mix it in with your pack job your canopy will have no problem standing you up erect.

Toggle placement, like brake settings and tailgate location, ought to be customized for each jumper/canopy combination.
Tom,

Is it not true that moving the toggles up more than two or so inches on a slider up configuration will prevent the canopy from flying on full drive as the toggles will hit the guide ring and the tail will be deflected downards?

Surely that depends on how much slack there is already in the braklines, before you move the toggles?

Gus

Surely that depends on how much slack there is already in the braklines, before you move the toggles?

Gus,
From the few canopies that I have jumped for the specific purpose of changing the toggle setting from the manufacturers "as shipped" setting, I have noted that beyond two or more inches starts to deflect the tail. I have just recently jumped a microlight for the purpose of assessing the toggle setting on my new BJ280 and this is exactly what I found. I am however, really not at all knowledgeable on this subject so...

It depends on the specific canopy and manufacturer. It also depends on the jumper.

Short, fat guys like me are going to need to push the toggles up more and/or use a canopy with 5 control lines. In some cases, pushing the toggles up will cause a tail deflection (i.e. you'll never be able to get the canopy into full flight, even with your arms pushed up as far as they can reach--beyond the toggle placement on the risers). This is generally quite rare, though, since it implies very short arms.

John, are you doing your testing in a slider down (i.e. no guide rings) configuration?

Also, chadkal, do you have 4 or 5 control lines on that Troll?

Tom,

I used a slider up configuration for the microlight test jump and noted that if I pulled the toggles down more than two to three inches the tail would start to deflect. The toggles were in the "as shipped" position. To my limited experience, this is normal and to be expected. I have since raised the toggle position by two inches as I wasn't getting deep enough into the control stroke when slider off. You and I discussed this elsewhere.

In this current thread I noted that no one was discussing the fact that raising the toggles more than two or so inches from the "as shipped" mark will impact upon the ability of the canopy to fly at full drive in a slider up configuration as the toggles will now hit the guide rings sooner than before. This I believe is generally true however you had mentioned some time ago in a long lost thread that you seldom find yourself flying in full drive but more often fly with some degree of brakes, therefore even if the canopy is inhibited it possibly doesn't matter to some folks. Needless to say on a windy day or when in need of gaining maximum distance to the LZ, full drive is preferable.

Tom,

I have 5 control lines and have been jumping only slider down. All jumps here are between 200 and 400 ft.

Hi there...

First of all I commend you on making this statement...it's tough to be the guy admitting "I'm not standing up my landings" and I think you are a Real Man...not afraid to expose a perceived shortcoming in order to learn something new.

My first suggestion would be to get the valves installed on the Vtec. These valves seal off the vents when the canopy is pressurized and allows you to get better glide and way better flares.

The 5th upper control line can also add a lot of power to your flare.

Personally, I'm the butt-slide queen. I could blame this habit on having broken my right leg pretty severely, and that would be marginally true, but actually I've always done the butt-slide when in doubt about my landing. I realize this is very dangerous for the tailbone and lower back, so I'm also re-training myself to either stand it up, or PLF. I was also pleased to notice that while I was sliding in under my 293, I have been able to stand up every landing on my 266. The higher wing loading does add to flare performance, just like they teach you in skydiving....doh!

And of course, one obvious question is that after you've flown yourself to target, do you still have time to return to full flight before flaring? The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Peace,
K

After my helmet, I consider my Dainese Hip, Ass and Tailbone Protector my best investment in protection. I imagine other brands sell similar shorts.

Mine is a left over from my snowboarding days, but it works great for base too. You don't notice you're wearing them at all. I prefer them over the longer protection pants because now I can add separate shin and knee protection on demand.

Like you say, a PLF is often safer than a buttslide. Nonetheless, these shorts have saved my ass on several occasions. I realize I'm opening myself up for a lot of one-liners here, so the Splatula team has been warned.

Cornische, here's your model number: 4879609

Edited for spelling.

Lightly loaded seven cells flare a _lot_ differently than similar canopies (PD reserves and lightnings) at typical skydiving loadings. When I'm not current on my Fox 245 and Dagger 244 (current loading .67, has been as high as .79) I get harder landings than I do under a less familiar seven cells at much higher loadings (My PD143R with one jump in the last few years or a borrowed Lightning 143).

Flaring higher and faster seems to work. Deep brake approaches without returning to full flight don't appreciably change things. A few weekends at 4-5 jumps a day out of a plane really helped.

John (Kenya),

Good Point.

There are definitely those times when its necessary to really work for distance with a head wind in order to make it to a landing area. Having the ability to reach full flight is a good thing. Reducing drag from your body helps too.

Full flight (or more) can also be very desirable at flare time.
In a no-wind or down-wind situation, I prefer as dynamic a flare as I can get.