Basejumper.com - archive

To turn Sean's question on it's head:

What do you look for in a BASE student?


Since I get this question quite a bit (mostly from people wanting to get into my course), I'll start. In no particular order:

1) Someone who is "switched on". This means that they not only look at their environment, they consider it critically, and continuously. The actually evaluate what is happening around them and try to make decisions about it for themselves.

2) Someone who has put in the time to get prepared. Someone who has made the effort to go out and do some canopy training, make some CRW jumps, do skydives on gear that bears some resemblance to BASE gear. I really give a pretty strong preference to people with CRW experience.

3) Someone who has done their homework. They should have read almost everything that is available about BASE. If it's printed, or on the internet, they ought to have at least looked at it. I shouldn't have to teach them when to use which size PC--that's in a chart they should have downloaded, read (and memorized) a year and a half ago.

4) Someone who has asked questions, and is involved in a continuous learning process. Someone who has already started asking questions (from me or anyone else), is far more likely to keep learning after they are "off student status."

5) Someone who has audited a course. Someone who has taken the time and energy to actually follow along a BASE course before they could take one. I often give preference to people who have audited my past courses, because this (a) shows that they are committed to learning, and (b) has given me a chance to get to know them a bit (and hence evaluate them better).

6) Someone who has connected with their local BASE community. I dread finding out that I've given someone a loaded nylon flamethrower and sent them on their way. One way to hedge against this is to know that they've made real efforts to meet their local crew. This also gives them a source of immediate support for questions, as well as people to jump with.

7) Someone with an adult attitude. I look for people who have life experience that indicates they are unlikely to approach BASE recklessly. Experience at the high end of other outdoor activities is a big plus, just for the mindset it teaches. Someone who has already gone through their "young and reckless" phase is also far better prepared to approach BASE carefully. And, in all honesty, so is someone who has already been smacked pretty hard by poor decisions in some kind of outdoor sport. If someone has spent some hospital time, I know they understand that getting hurt really does hurt.


Looking at these criteria, I notice that I haven't put "X number of skydives" in there anywhere.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Just out of curiousity, do you care at all how important base is to a person? Independent of how serious somebody approaches the sport, people participate with varying levels of passion. For some it's their life and blood and the only thing they think about when they're awake. Others participate in other sports, care about a family, or get the same amount of enjoyment from juggling five balls.

I'm always saddened when I meet hardcore skydivers who are missing out on so many other great things in life. However, maybe in base this is not such a bad thing considering how much more dangerous the sport is.

Apologies if this is a highjack, feel free to move or delete.

Not really. Since it's usually something they haven't done yet, I'd be very surprised to find someone who was obsessed with it.

I do think it's important to maintain some balance in your life, but I don't usually evaluate student applications like that. I do wonder if a certain amount of obsession, especially in the early stages, might not contribute to safety.

edit to add: I do look for people who have given some thought to where BASE fits into their life. So if it's the obsession, that's ok, and if it gets put into the mix with family, skydiving and bowling, that's ok too. Just as long as they've done some thought and evaluated how those things fit together.

Ok, i will give the perspective from the other side "wanting to base" but havent yet. I would whole hardedly agree with all of Toms points. I think it's pretty obvious that we all have our own inner deamons to satisfy and they all come for different reasons. I have been around skydiving a long time hense my low 600+ jump #'s and being around it 20 some odd years. Did in the military and years later got current again. I have always been into these sports.. Growing up rock climbing,surfing skateboarding, platform diving, Free diving , kiteboarding, anything that seemed to 'freaking Cool". If you grow up in states that provide a breeding ground for these sports , it's hard not to get involved. Hence my all of a sudden burining passion to base jump. i have been surrounded in the past with experianced base jumpers but it never came out and bit me in the ass. It was usally my obsevation to a antenna jump video or building jump as... your wacked.... Hence the not understanding the sport,equipment preperation and learning, the out sider see's this as a "Super Extreme activity" performed by crazy people... I know different now....hence the ask questions, read, research......I think it is also key to ground crew..actually see in person what it is really like....it looks great in the videos but is a hole lot different actually doing it. There is one thing watching a guy with a thousand base jumps wingsuiting Norway and another thing when your ass is tumbling unstable at exit at the same site with your 100 jumps...I bet it will all seem different than you thought it would be....
This is when you need to be as Tom Said,"switched on"....this awarness level is what will either save you or finish you. Like surfing or any other sport that requires a Hightend awarness level and to act like a machine when things are going wrong.... I will also go along with the smack assesment. It also all changes when you hammer in. I did in all my ventures including hooking and bouncing and living to do it another day. It makes a hell of a difference...You gain a hole new respect for what you are doing.....I would have to say that for me it's just on the "10 things i do before i die list"....To base Switz, Norway and Italy. The videos got to me. The actual flying aspect...the hike, the view...the outdoors and yes the thrill of doing something you feel fee......It's hard to really pin down but thats what i have come up with so far....I am 46 married, kids, mortage the hole package.....I have many decisions to make...ie. life insurance....could bounce....health insurance....could live threw the bounce....financial responsabities....bounced...lived... crippled....can't work to support family....then what.....Theres alot of things to think about besides just the jumping... It's not as simple as it seems. I could go to my FJC and get on the bridge and look down and the say" What the fuck am i doing"....You never know until you are there..I think that what Tom and other experienced base jumpers are doing will only make the sport better. I have learned more in the last month reading and listening to base jumpers in this forum than i have in the past 20 some odd years. So dont change anything.....This is good stuff..

Peace all....Chris

home work??? a year and a half ago. i look to this forum for alot of info constantly, yea sometimes it's hard to even understand what your talking about, obviously the this 's and thats are for the better out come, but hardly ever why, why different pc's (as in condition location height of object) slider up slider down, yes i would figure opening speed.

But don't kid yourself you do have some info but alot has to do with big balls, and a mentor.

lets see where, where is that info compiled, I think it's locked in the heads of the people who are...

and some are so reluctant to share, Hell they won't even ask you to come out and watch. Knowing all to well you will share a roof top slot in the future.

You should have a thread where all you guru's talk about the do's and dont's (and don't bicker) and the big ??? WHY.


See you on the edge....

With too much balls, too little brain, and too little info even the best mentor can't keep you from the inevitable. Just my 0.02.

Big boobs ?

Sorry Tom, couldn't resist

bsbd!

Yuri.

What if someone thinks about BASE jumping in similar way many people commit themselves to marathon or triathlon. They decide that in addition to the achievements they had in life, they want to step-up a notch. To do BASE for high-end achievement, not adrenaline rush (included, I guess). Is this kind of rational, calculated, long-term motivation a positive factor?

So, would I "pre-qualify"?

> 1) Someone who is "switched on".

Subjective assessment - qualify. Analytical to the bone. Why 7 cells not 9? Why rotors behind buildings are different than behind cliffs. Why "line-mod". Why, why, why. BTW, I usually catch the bottle before it hits the ground

> 2) Someone who has put in the time to get prepared.

I'd commit as much time and effort as necessary,
to achieve the required canopy control, body awareness etc.

3) Someone who has done their homework.

How much homework is enough? Read "every single word" on the net etc..Thought it over and over. Thought about every every person on "the list".

4) Someone who has asked questions, and is involved in a continuous learning process.

In my life - yes.

5) Someone who has audited a course.

No.

6) Someone who has connected with their local BASE community.

See above

7) Someone with an adult attitude.

Does other life experience qualify? Commitement to education, work, family, friend, good cause, flying airplanes etc.?

Hurt? - busted back mountain-biking, had a few close calls in the mountains.


???

The information I was referring to is all neatly compiled in a chart here, which I'd hope folks would have already found on their own.

Don't sweat it yet dude, I'm in the same position with the hands-on technical side,
you just have to read what you can, and stick to what you feel comfortable with knowledge-wise.

I've really only scratched at the surface meeting BASE jumpers around me,
but i know where i'm going, and i'll take my own sweet time getting there.

If i find out anything good, i'll let you know.

Anyway.. this forum is intended for the likes of us...

 

When I had maybe 50 jumps, I went out to this place one of my friends knew about. It was a bridge, in a small town in southern Idaho. Reportedly, the police didn't mind BASE jumpers (an idea I found almost ludicrous, but which turned out to be true).

On the first day I was there, I met a bunch of jumpers who had come in from Portland, Oregon. One of them was a tall, thin chap with a funny accent. On a load that afternoon, I saw him do a jump that just looked purely insane to me. He had two of his friends hold his legs, dangle him over the edge of the bridge, and then drop him.

Riding the boat back to the packing area, I commented to him that he must have the biggest balls in the western hemisphere. His reply stuck with me.

He said "BASE jumping is about brains--not balls. If people jumped more with their brains, and less with their balls, there'd be a lot more of us still around."

Varying your PC size has a lot more to do with pack job deformation than with opening speed. The idea of sizing the PC is to get the appropriate PC for the airspeed you are travelling at. If your PC is too large, it rips the (freepacked) canopy apart on the way to line stretch, effectively destroying the pack job you spend so long laboring over. A small PC, as you correctly surmised, will have something of the opposite effect. The point of using smaller PC's as you gain airspeed is to keep the pack job in shape on the way to line stretch. This will actually yield faster openings (and more symmetric ones). So in some cases, a smaller PC (at higher airspeed) can actually yield a quicker opening.

Keep asking the why questions. They're very important.

Definitely. It's rare to find people who are just looking for adrenaline rush sticking around very long. There's an awful lot more to this sport than that.

At this point, I think I'd probably be more likely to take on a student who had those kind of long term BASE goals than otherwise, but it's hard to form those goals when you haven't jumped yet, simply because you may not realize what the real achievements are.




Other life experience is always a big positive.

at long last this place is getting interesting...hey Tom...the reason for the x number of skydive issue is plain and simple...you cant BASE jump without canopy skills (well i guess you can but i hope you a)dont or b) survive uninjured long enough to learn said skills).

i would like to say im not a mentor,instructor,teacher, jedi knight or water walking son of god but if i were the qualities you have listed are there or there abouts...i would like to see them make a will,talk to their folks/friends/loved ones,be as clued up as they could possibly be and then start down the long and rocky road with a course of instuction in the states...the reason for this?Aside from the fact that the manufacturers are at the cutting edge of the technology and are the butt end of customer feedback taking a course in the states costs a lot of money and will for the less serious of the potential jumper out there be too big a hurdle to jump....

Aside from the normal reasons for trying to make people think before they start there is a second but darker reason..BASE jumping here in England/UK is getting to critical mass and to be honest i am not alone in thinking fook it...we dont need any more jumpers....its limited resources here...you want to join my club then earn your spurs buddy...anybody else feel like this??

Hi Tom...HI y'all... (Shotgun has rubbed off on me!)

Yes, good point Tom.

I'm amazed at how few people look at the pilot chute reference chart; not only new jumpers looking for education, but also current jumpers that have purchased new gear.

Recently a student and customer of ours called from Twin Falls for instructions on the Multi. I mentioned to him that the details were in his Owner's Manual, and he laughingly admitted he had never even opened his Owner's Manual. Funny, haha, like a pilot chute in tow or a broken friggin' leg.

READ VORACIOUSLY! EVEN DRY, TECHNICAL STUFF LIKE OWNER'S MANUALS AND REFERENCE CHARTS! As Tom said, it's all there if you'll only look for it.

Peace, y'alll...

K

Hey Tom,

I was looking over that chart, which I had looked at previously with little relatedness, and it seems rather scewed compared to most of the jumping I see/hear about.

For instance, it recommends handheld to over 500 feet, yet I don't see this being practiced much, 250-300 seems like the more used cutoff altitude between HH and Stowed.

Does the chart follow your thoughts? Do you think it follows the current thoughts of the masses?

Two factors. First, the chart is relatively old, and as gear and knowledge improved, people starting smoking it lower and lower. Secondly, the chart includes the manufacturers liability safety margin. No manufacturer will ever recommend you freefall from 200 feet, even when they might think it's possible. That's because it's only possible for some individuals with the appropriate knowledge, training and skills. Manufacterers can't make that judgement call, so they have to err on the safe side.


I have actually been contemplating about switching to a "slider down means hand-held" philosophy. It won't make me a very progressive base jumper, but if I'm having fun and being safe, then who cares? I've always liked hand-held jumps anyway, in a certain romantic historical base-jumping kind of way.

I do want to make a few more stowed jumps from the Potato bridge, but I wouldn't be surprised to see myself preferring hand-helds from then on.

Edited to add: Of course, sometimes going stowed is safer than going hand-held, for example when there is a sketchy climb to a launch point, or maybe when you take a running exit.

>>deciding whether or not to take on a protege. I'd have expectations of my student, for sure, but I'd have expectations of myself as well.<<

That's an excellent point and it bears repeating. It's not enough to have excellent BASE skills; you also have to know how to pass on those skills in an effective way. This is a whole sub-set ability having nothing to do with BASE.

It's the reason so many have trouble with AFF certification courses in that other sport. They show up with the air skills but find it surprising so much if the course is based on effective teaching skills. I've seen many self destruct in these courses because they are struggling on the ground . . .

The whole Mentor thing has been a problem in BASE jumping since the very beginning. Before there were Mentors per say, people usually learned BASE from people they knew. How does a potential jumper seeing the adverts in SKYDIVING Magazine differentiate between Instruction? Especially when anyone with the money for a flashy color ad can call themselves a Mentor?

Years ago, when the sport was much smaller, we knew who was good at teaching and who wasn't. Now there is no way to keep track outside of the established courses with proven track records. If someone runs a killer ad, and it's someone no one knows, what can we say? It may be just perfectly fine, or maybe not.

Is it time for "Under-Cover" student?

One time years ago the USPA began hearing from experienced jumpers that during their travels some skydiving instruction they saw was beginning to get really shoddy. USPA came up with the idea to employ DZ investigators. These would be highly experienced Instructors who weren't the types that had their faces plastered all over PARACHUTIST every month. They could then present themselves at Drop Zone X-ray, sign up, and actually sit through the first jump course and jump.

I signed up right away, but as we looked deeper into it we realized it would cause more PR problems than anything else. And there wasn't a large enough spike in student injuries or fatalities to justify it.

Too bad, except for an occasional ass kicking in the parking lot if found out, I thought of how much fun it would be. Sometimes you could be "good" student and sometimes you could be "bad" student. I've taught skydiving so long I know what buttons to push to drive an Instructor right up the wall. I thought it would be interesting to see how far I could go before they wouldn't allow me to jump. (Or, LOL, maybe that is something we are better off not knowing).

In the end the USPA dropped the idea, but at least they were thinking.

What are we doing?

NickD
BASE 194

>>it seems rather scewed compared to most of the jumping I see/hear about.<<

We did the original version of that chart in the early nineties at BR. I believe it's only been updated once since then . . . and basically it was to take the skulls out I used to make, LOL.

It's up to every jumper to realize how fluid and ever changing this sport is. Anyone remember when almost no one went stowed at Bridge Day . . . ?

NickD
BASE 194

Definitely. It's rare to find people who are just looking for adrenaline rush sticking around very long. There's an awful lot more to this sport than that.

I am steadily accumulating jumps now with intentions of finding a course similar to yours (hoping for 200+ by then). I have a long list of accomplishments, education, life experience, life-flight rides etc...I am currently a semi-pro cyclist coming off of a superbike career blah blah blah

Here is what I don't understand--

I posted last week with a question about cameras, not so I could jump with a camera but so I could use it now in my other sports and have the knowledge of how it performs, and just generally get used to filming for my own education.

Well as you probably noticed, I was given shit for even asking, as if I am not qualified to ask about cameras. So no worries, I understand..

Yet I see these replies to my posting and most others (with jumps well over 1000), and yet half the postings I read make it clear that these "experienced" jumpers have no concept of physics or atmospheric science.

Why is this knowledge not a recommedation?

Maybe this IS why the mishaps are so frequent?

I know that I don't want to jump along side of somebody who has little or no education on those two matters.

I have seen first hand a half dozen deaths, and well over 100 accidents/injuries and nearly every one of them were "the best" anybody had seen.

Well were they the best or were they just getting lucky all of those years?

I have also seen some of the most educated in the adrenalin sports make it uninjured because they won't do it unless it is calculated first.

I guess this isn't really a question, just a comment.

I hope it doesn't offend anybody.

I see the book you recommend (Dennis Pagen I believe) and that has some good stuff in it, but there is still a great deal of physics and calculations that need to be made by somebody who is not with a person who does understand this.

How about the simple math to figure out how long it will take to reach a certain altitude based on a variable fall rate? Is it acceptable to just rely on past data and other's suggestions?

Hey I'm an excellent studant except in spelling. but I dont think that matters much here. I;m very much into the ethics of base meening the enviroment the community and the sport. I do not want to futher my learning by my self and risk injuring myself somebody else or the sport. so if there are any nj jumpers or recomendations please PM me.
thanks.

 Anyone remember when almost no one went stowed at Bridge Day . . . ?

NickD
BASE 194
I do. Those guys were fucking nuts

Have you read the required reading list for my FJC and Skills Camp? Two books on there: BASE 66 and Understanding the Sky. Understanding the Sky can be a bit dense, so if you have a recommendation for something a little easier to digest, I'd love to hear it.

I also recommend some reading on fluid motion (as well as the aforementioned two books), in my Getting Into BASE article.


I'd say that better knowledge of micrometeorology would definitely help us all. But to categorize it as the main cause of accidents would be, I think, going too far. I'd say the biggest cause of accidents is leaving the exit point when you shouldn't (i.e. judgment error) or attempting jumps without gradually preparing for them (which is probably also a judgment error).


Can you point me at any references you'd recommend in that regard?



I believe the altitude-delay chart I referenced (on the Apex web page) does a pretty good job of giving that information. I'd love to find a formular that would work for that, somehow taking into account variation in body position (etc) to be more precise. But I think it's unlikely we're going to find such a formula that can be universally applied.

Not exactly, in either case.

But since I haven't taken the time to compile a chart of my own, I'm not going to complain about the free information being offered by Apex.

I miss the old "skulls and smiley faces" version.

I have read the books you list and found them quite helpful. I am actually a physics student so I have studied fluid dynamics.

In fact half the reason I returned to school was to learn about all of the phenomena that I have experienced in my early twenties.

I agree that the books are great, but what I was saying is that doesn't teach the physics of the actual jump.


I feel like I really don't have a right to say much more. I know if I had somebody commenting on how one of my well accomlished sports could be made better when he/she hadn't yet actually done it, I would be a bit put off.

I wasn't suggesting that the mishaps are due to lack of weather knowledge, I was stating exactly what you said in that most accidents are due to misjudgements, and that some of those misjudgements could be avoided if the calculations were either made better or made in the first place.

And back full circle to my original comment: I would hope that new students coming over from skydiving like myself would open a basic physics book and at least learn how to make some calculations.

I know of a few that I tell all of my fellow athletes to read. You know it is bad when the ask what Newton discovered.

I will try to dig through my collection and find a short compact book that explains the basics of newtonian motion and fluid/thermo dynamics. I would feel comfortable recommending that, because by the end of the summer I will be standing atop an object next to a person that will hopefully understand it.

Cheers, and hope to meet you by the end of summer.

The first six chapters of David Hestenes' New Foundations for Classical Mechanics.

If would love some recomendations for material on fluid dynamics. Everything I've found and tried so far had a learning curve that was too steep to fit my motivation.

Hey Dr. S,

Can you help us with a reference that works for those who are not on your "genius from another dimension" physics level?


For those who don't know him, BASE 460 actually is a physicist (with the fancy doctorate from a prestigious university, and all that).

Kallend, here on the forums, is also a professor along those lines. I'll try to drop some PM's around and see if anyone can point us in the right direction.

How about some quantom physics..... a worm hole for example....that could explain alot of mishaps....

Im sorry...I ment Black hole..... maybe that will explain it....they just where just at the wrong place at the wrong time...

Sorry Nickster....i could not resist....The conversation was getting too deep.......

http://www.crystalinks.com/black_holes.html

Thats just my point....doing to much in too short of time for all the wrong reasons....i.e...money....fame.... publicity...i.e pay for the training and trip....jumping a first time object....with probably no camera experience....i jumped a camera for a hundred or so jumps and i dont know squat...... this seems to me a anatomy of a dead man.....

Woman Survives 9-Story Fall

This woman has got to qualify.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7835451/

you think?

irrespective of his glory seeking, I think he went about his training fairly sensibly for those times, hell even for these times, with death camps all the rage.

Well then it is time for me to bow out--if there is a physicist out there who has been involved with base that long, surely he will know more than I do about the combination of the two, as well as the general knowledge of the BASE crowds he is invloved with.

I am sure he will know of a classic conceptual book called "Conceptual Physics" by Hewitt. We were all insulted in our transition to upper division when the professor suggested this book, but although it teaches one as if he/she is in third grade, it is very helpful for somebody who is not quite understanding the qualititative (visual) idea behind some of the more advanced theories (relatively advanced--so to speak:)

You know there would probably be some decent money in a publsihing of a small handbook that combines all of the basics in a "guide for falling bodies in a fluid medium and the dynamics of the microclimates that might hinder ones judgement or save ones life, and other bonus hints on just how things work" forgive the title I am being mostly sarcastic. Atlthough a book like this with all of your charts in the back that are more updated than that of the recommended PC's for the modern 1980's jumper.

Thank you

Does "Thank you" mean quit offering suggestions, or thank you for the suggestions?

It means fill out your profile, and stop trolling.

Lets see....

I asked Tom a question and got a few other responses, then responded to those, then received a message asking for some more advice on Physics books.

Not sure how that is trolling...

However since I am new to the forum, I assume since you have a big "D" listed under experience that everybody else shares your view.

I am doing what most highly qualified instructors say to do...ask lots of questions and start understanding the world of BASE.

This thread is titled "what to look for in a student" doesn't that mean that I, with little experience should be in this thread asking questions and stating my concerns, as well as getting feedback?

I don't have a profile, I have 0 jumps, I only have jumped out of planes, and saw the thread and thought this would be the place for students and teachers to swap views.

oh wait...nevermind...I just realized what the "D" stands for, because the last guy who told me to get out of the thread that I created, also had a "D"

Sincerely,

The guy who will probably piss somebody off before I make any friends.

You have a name, you skydive right? Thats profile information. Do yourself a favor ,and fill out the profile. It will give you some credibility (maybe).

What Im having a hard time with is that you won't share an exit point with someone that can't quote newton, but you can't seem figure out how to fill in a few blanks about yourself on a forum profile.

Dude, its ok if you just made a tandem last month (maybe abit premature to post on a base forum), but you gotta give alittle to get alittle.

Did I mention you might want to fill in the profile.

Also, the forum search function is an very valuable tool, it might keep you from asking something that might have been covered a few times already.

Agreed.


Agreed.

Having agreed with those points though, I believe that Newtons2nd's posts are well-intentioned. I must admit that I don't think a wackload of physics will make base much safer either, but sometimes a fresh idea from an unexplored corner can provide a new invention that can safe somebody's life. Far fetched? Maybe. But trolling? I don't think so.

I don't know if Newtons2nd has zero or a thousand skydives, but I don't think there's a shame in having an interest in base even when you have zero skydives. Maybe it's better to lurk on the forums than post, but even the occasional post won't do much more harm than increase the amount of entropy in the universe.

In case any beginners on this forum are too embarrased to fill out their profile, allow me to shamefully admit that the "student" part of my profile is completely true. I still don't have my A license in skydiving. Admittedly if I were to do my theory-tests I'd have my A and B at once but I'm not very big on rules, regulation and licenses. I'll bother some day when I want to jump in the States. Besides, even if I'd have my D-license, I'd still consider myself a student. It's what we all are and always will be.

I wonder if CSPA has ever gotten applications for an A-license from somebody with over 192 jumps.

So don't hesitate to fill out your profile, even if you have never even seen a plane from up close. As long as your posts are well-intentioned and you've RTFMed, we'll do our best to come up with useful answers. Even when sometimes that's nothing more than: "visit your local dropzone and ask them".

>> I would hope that new students coming over from skydiving like myself would open a basic physics book and at least learn how to make some calculations.<<

>>> newtonian motion and fluid/thermo dynamics. I would feel comfortable recommending that, because by the end of the summer I will be standing atop an object next to a person that will hopefully understand it.<<

Hello,

You took kind of dunning with the camera thing because you're coming off pompously, you know, like the fellow who wants to buy a sailboat and voyage around the world when he's not yet been out of the harbor. And really, string theory to most BASE jumpers means keeping one's feet out of one's suspension lines.

Another thing is not every BASE jumper is interested in helping others into the sport, and that's their right to do so.

I'll advise you, but you have to give a little first. Like what's your name? How many skydives have you made over what period of time? How can we help you without knowing your situation? You said you study physics, you said you are an athlete, you said everything except what we needed to know.

And believe this; when you are finally standing there and looking down into the big gulp for the first time with a rig on your back, Isaac Newton will be the last thing on your mind . . .

BTW, if you are still awake tonight, start your education here. Read it all and if you are still interested in BASE jumping we can talk again in the morning . . .

http://www.basefatalities.info/

NickD
BASE 194

no further questions your honour.

 

guys why would you want a new guy to fill out his profile as many BASE jumpers in here and other places dont...
Its the futur BASEjumpers right to not do so..

its not like were a comunity were evry one wants their name out there,no matter if theyre new or old..

just looking at the other side...

Sean go to bed... sleep tight and rember the correct gear next time huh he he i would have laughed my arse off for that one.. good skills

There is something pretty simple, but still pretty important that everyone seems to have overlooked- well, except Yuri maybe.

You got to like them.

The slightest incompatibility gets magnified when we're stressed. A teacher/ mentor should want to spend lots of unpaid time with their student, arguably for months/ years to come.

Obviously it works the other way too- if you think your potential mentor is a bit of a tool, you're really not doing youself any favours.

Tom,

How or why do you suggest CRW jumps?

Spot on Monty. I know one jumper in particular who doesn't have a great relationship with his mentor and it's a crap situation for both of them - but particularly for the student.

Gus

I wonder if CSPA has ever gotten applications for an A-license from somebody with over 192 jumps. \

__________________________________________________
CSP---WHAT? I know several (well, more than one) who had around a thousand jumps before they ever bothered to get a licence (if they ever did)

My favorite response was Chris Cecil out of Silver Eagle. 'Hey ?Chris, what if you want to do a demo and they won't let you on it?" Chris's reply "I'll buy a plane and do it myself." (Chris owned and flew a number of twin beeches)

CRW is all about putting a large 7 cell (or it was a few yaers ago) into an nch perfect spot,using front and rear risers to effect this as well as sometimes toggle turns...its also about flying close to something,in turbulent air and with a need for heightened reaction times (ask anyone whos been in a wrap) and finally about spacial awareness...this helps when you are landing at the bottom of an object with no toggles into a tight landing area as one of many example cases...any crw dogs want to add any more?

Hey thanks for the information. Funny how a person like me, who has never made a base jump yet would never think about that...

Tim

Have a look at Tom Begic's summary of the similarities between CRW and BASE here.

i hope you arent being sarcastic

Calculus?

Michael

Calculus, and everything form of motion, from molecular to black holes, most of it in his 20's, in the early 1700's, and with no other knowledge, in fact everything that he read was flawed in some way so he had little to build on.

Most of it is still used actively, and most of it still checks out to be spot on, yet he couldn't see half of the planetary motion or molecular motion he was postulating.

It only starts to collapse (so to speak) when it is used at the atomic level, which is where QM and QED comes in (quantum mech, and quantum electro dynamics).

I'm one course away from having degrees in Physics and Pure Mathematics. This doesn't mean very much. Maybe what would tell you more is if I said I have a major fetish for information. As well as studying what others have written, I like to do quantitative experiments. But I'm also aware of the limitations to this way of thinking. If you're going to jump an ultra-low object, doing it because the math works out is a terrible way to go. Yeah, to me it's cool to do the math anyway because I dig that sort of thing. But you should also have jumped something slightly higher before, and that should be the major thing which informs your decision to jump.

What am I trying to say? I'm trying to say that the simple freefall chart which is printed on the inside of almost every logbook, as well as the manufacturer's conservative pilot chute sizing chart, are probably the only quantitative information you will ever need. Okay, I'm probably over-simplifying the case here. But if you need a chart to tell you what size pilot chute to use for your 180-foot freefall, you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

A physics degree alone means very little. I've seen plenty of examples of graduate and post-graduate physics students who can do most of the math, but show very little adaptability to unkown problems.

A staggering percentage of the student population actually believes they are learning the right answers. That's one of the big messages we get in school. There is a right answer and a wrong answer, and we're learning the right one. If we buy into this too much, it is at the cost of adaptability.

To get to the point... I think what is more important in a student than book learning is having a certain volume of knowledge, and knowing the limitations of that knowledge. I would rather that someone knew the basic delay and pilot chute charts, but also knew that there was some margin for error in thos numbers, as opposed to "knowing" the exact values. To me, the latter kind of knowledge shows a basic belief that we can know the right answer. The former shows more capacity for growth, which will be one of your greatest allies in this sport.

Michael

Ok here is a response and a question for the other students out there.

--Let's say I have a reputation to protect. I see many other experienced jumpers with little info in their profile.

--I had a bad mishap when I was 22. I raced Superbikes in 97 and 98 and had a local reporter go nuts because I was about to set some record that really wasn't that big of a deal. He blew it out of proportion and included all sorts of other interests in it, including what I ride on the street. Well there was an incident on the street in some old canyons where the speed of pursuit averaged 140 and had half the roads blocked. Well that guy got away due to his knowledge of the area and his ability to ride without allowing adrenalin to overcome acute judgement.

My house was surrounded a day later and I was thrown in jail on a pure hunch. They stated that because of all of the information and PICTURES in tha article, that beyond doubt it had to be me. Worst of all they impouded not only my street stuff but all of my race gear. Well as you can imagine I beat it in court, but it adversely affected my business (not to mention my attitude toward police)which I had spent years after recovering. I would drop business cards, and people would say "aren't you the one who was arrested last month" for outrunning the police?

I am sure this is ringing a ton of bells right now with jumpers who may or may not want their personal info out there.

So the question is what part of the profile will really make my posts more worthy?

I almost did fill it in, but I didn't want to put my real name and personal info and then introduce myself at some exit point as the guy who put a bunch of false information.

So here is another question:

I live very near an "S"and "B" that have rarely been jumped succesfully without the wrong onlookers.

I ride my bike up and down the "S" daily and study the currents and the wind dreaming of the day that I get to pull it off. I have studied the people, the boats, the patrol, and the cameras so that I have a vast knowledge of the right time to go without risking drawing attention.

What do you experienced jumpers do in a situation like that. Do you keep the stories and suggestions to yourself, or do you just post anyway with your name being public information?

[Laird]

-I didn't say I won't share an exit with somebody who hasn't a PhD in physics, I was saying that I think it is a good idea for the NEW students coming over from skydiving like myself to at least understand a few basic concepts about motion.

Everything is flawed. Most theories today are fundamentally a description of a mathematical system whose dynamics happen to be analogous to the dynamics of the world around us. Mathematical theories will always live in the domain of mathematics. The dynamics of the real world will always live in the domain of the real. I think it's very important, and often overlooked, to understand the implications of this. When we say the world is "three-dimensional", for example, what we are really trying to say is, "The world as we see it is nearly analogous to some three-dimensional mathematical system." But by saying it the short way, we've inadvertantly implied that "the world" and "three dimensional" live in the same domain, which they do not.

Okay, maybe this is getting a bit too philosophical for this thread, but to bring it back, I'll say that a BASE student should have as clear an idea as possible of the fact that they are not jumping into a theoretical system. They are jumping into the real world. If anything, I would say too much book learning distances us from this fact. While I think the basic delay and pilot chute charts are fabulous, I also think that when we try to refine them too far, we lose sight of the fact that they were only ever meant as guidelines, not as exact models.

As Nick said, when you stand at the edge of a cliff you will know the difference between theory and reality.

Michael

If I can be obsessed with watching base vidz lol along with thinking "wonder if thats been jumped yet" everytime I look at a kinda high object.
I'm sure there must be some skydiver out there who is planning to BASE and is obsessed with persueing(spelling) that.
but your "obsessed" maybe different to another persons classing of obsessed

By definition, you couldn't know how often they are jumped without onlookers. By my personal definitions, you couldn't know how often they've been successfully jumped.

Be careful how certain you are of those things. I've met lots of people who live here and are "certain" that there have been at least 5 BASE fatalities off this bridge.

The reason they don't get called for anonymous posting is usually because one or more non-anonymous posters know who they are, and can sort of "e-vouch" for them. Check out the "Troll Police" bit where someone wanted to know who Hannes was.



Generally, people will talk to other jumpers in a non-public (i.e. off the forum) way about such a jump.

Ahh something new Thank you Tom. your a gentleman and an esquire.

Ed

The physics of a jump, where will I be when and what wil be the forces acting on or against me, is interesting information to a physicist or the curious. But this knowledge doesn't yield that much useful information; just a better understanding if you have the capacity to comprehend it.

For most activities, the use of successive improvements will yield much better results. This goes back to something Tom mentioned earlier regarding gradually increasing your capabilities. This is the most useful and predictable way of improving performance, especially when the major source of information is the seat of your pants.

To relate this to something you seem familiar with let's look at superbike racing. I'm sure you've heard of Keith Code. He has written several books and has or had a racing school. In his school the first session out you are allowed to use one gear and no brakes to get around the track. This limits many of the variables you encounter entering a corner and lapping a track. You go around the track successively improving your speed. Next you use two gears and minimal brakes and so on until you progress to full use of all control inputs.

This is also in practice in most skydiving and BASE jumping progression. Tom's course specifically, you start by jumping out of a tree. (It's really more complex than that) This gives you some insight into the apprehension you wil face. Next you progress to PCA, next to HH, etc.

Being able to calculate the number of seconds to freefall if I want to be open by x feet AGL is informational, but it isn't all that useful. Gradually increasing your delay until you reach that point is safer and the jumps you make getting to that delay yeields much more useful information than the calculations or the knowledge needed to comprehend the calculations.

Big Boobs and a box...Mike Greer has big boobs but I wouldn't want to bang him.

Besides he looks like a bulldog licking pi$$ off a thistle.

He's back, and he does it in style!

Good work Skinflicka!

Last night, while out at a new 350' urban object in our fine city, our crew was approached by an individual with no BASE experience who had bought a rig on DZ.com.

After thorough interrogation about the pack job and inspection of the rig, we decided to take him along for the jump and subsequent training.

The determining factor as to his suitability as a BASE student was "... well dude, he's got a Metallica t-shirt on...".

What could possibly go wrong!

As Nick said, when you stand at the edge of a cliff you will know the difference between theory and reality.
__________________________________________________
Or when you hit the bottom....

As I said " Big balls and a mentor"

I would not go that route. and who would sell someone that rig???? NO EXP?????


Isn't it like saying, hey kid where'd you you get that gun? oh here take the safety off, There you go. Nice job. see you later.

you ain't right, but I guess you ain't wrong either.

Question: hand held PC, Exit, I seen pitched like a lob over head, I seen flung like a vollyball, To avoid burble hesitation I would suppose to pitch hard away from the body. what does anyone do, your prefrence and why.

If you pitch too violently you risk dropping a shoulder. I use a very well practiced wrist action.

god love the ATL crew! I think they have the best way of finding a student that is "swithched on". Metallica t shirt or money for beer might be an even better indicator. Maybe make them read Penthouse letters or Hustlers beaver hunt!

LMAO Tonight it was Gallery's Girl next Door. God I love the GND issue.... hot hunnies in nexta nuthin'..

Have Metallica T-Shirt; Will Travel. My next book title....

Laughing all the way to the tar pit...

Gardner

P.S Can you say WDI? That's Wind Drift Indicator for the uninitiated. Who wants to go first? Be my guest....

Every object is worthy of being someone's first jump. heh heh.

A prior manuf., when asked what he was up to, used to say, "just shipped another loaded gun..."



Thank gawd for the safety,
-Gardner