Basejumper.com - archive

With hindsight of what you know, who you know and the way you think things are going/should be going in the sport please feel free to post.

Keep in mind Basic Research (now Apex BASE) and the other manufacturers instituted that 150 jump rule years ago on themselves when there were no rules. It really means, "We won’t sell, not you can’t buy." They knew there was no way to effectively prevent anyone from privately buying BASE gear.

However, lately I have made up my mind to stop using the 150-200 jump number. I fully believe 500 jumps is more like it. Both Strong and the Relative Workshop won't issue a tandem master rating to anyone with less than 500 jumps. And like tandem isn’t just another skydive, neither is BASE jumping. In fact BASE, in view of decision making, is more complicated than tandem in the long run.

I'm not going to start a campaign to get the manufactures to up the numbers, but hopefully, as the sport grows in interest the manufactures may be able to start slowly raising the number from 150 without too much bottom line effect. Remember we all have an interest in seeing they stay in business.

I think while jumps under BASE-like gear is important the thing 500 jumps gives you is a much greater awareness level. Even though the gear and training is better nowadays I fully remember how I was at 150 jumps. I wouldn't allow a family member to start BASE at 150 jumps, so in good conscious I'll stop giving that advice to anyone else.

Now, anyone who knows me knows I hate rules in general, but not when lives are at stake. The boom in BASE jumping we worried about and predicted for years is really here now. We have to saddle up for it.

I don’t know how many first time Bridge Day jumpers are at the allowed 50 jump level, if any, and I know BD is a sacred cow, but maybe it's time to change the message that is sending.

BTW I had 650 when I first BASE jumped . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I had over 700 skydives before I made my first BASE jumps at the span in Potatoville last year. Of course I didn't get into skydiving to start BASE jumping. BASE jumping just found me along the way.

In my opinion people are stared blind by the number of jumps they have. It is not because you have 200 skydives, that you are ready to basejump (I think most people will agree on this one)

Is it possible to add a prior 'exam' or test before the FJC? The futher jumper should pass some tests concering canopy flight (accuracy, maybe CRW...) before being allowed to the FJC.
Maybe this is a way to show the people that they are not ready, rather then saying it without giving some proof.

I also find that people who start skydiving for getting into basejumping should get more info on what to do exactly. I mean, when someone who has never skydived before asked what to do on how to get into basejumping, they mostly get the (sometimes a bit agressive) answer: go do at least 150 skydives. So, they go do their 150 skydives and start becoming a freeflyer controlling high performance canopies. This is not really the training for getting into basejumping. I don't think it is really good to find out on your first base that accuracy is important.
Maybe some experienced skydivers and basejumpers could write some kind of manual for how to get the neccassary experience in skydiving for basejumping? I think this would be a great help for a lot of new people (including me ) (Edit: if there is already such thing, tell me where to find it )

I also think that a lot of people don't really know what they are getting themself into. Maybe it can be good that a requierment for the FJC is some ground crew experience (6 months, a year, more...) so people know more about basejumping before they start doing it. Being confronted with people getting injured, killed, can change some peoples mind. (Edit: Espacially the people who get into base because it looks cool. )

These are just some thaugts. The downside is that it might be possible that more people will start on their own if they for example not pass the prior test, but are so convinced that they are ready.

Thijs

Disregarding the course I did in Norway, my normal course could and has started after the jumper got the "A" license equivalent and could take up my program of packing, rigging and jumping meeting my TLO's. IMHO, The earlier in their career that you can get them working on the skills that they need for BASE, the sooner they will be ready. An 80 jump skydiver with 60 jumps dedicated to learning BASE skills and achieving those skills will be way ahead of the curve than the 1000r who decides that he would like try BASE to see if he likes it.
So in answer to to your question I would say the minimum experience that I would accept in my normal course would be to have met all of my criteria of packing, rigging, (balloon) exits and canopy control TLO's regardless of the amount of jumps they have. It makes a huge difference if they learned to skydive only so they could proggress to BASE.
take care,
space

450 jumps (some large f111 7 cell experience) was my vote.

I would have gone for the last option but for the fact that I think you should already have similar required skills and knowledge before that time comes.

Pre-mentoring with the ability to try out canopies in the skydiving arena followed by a good FJC would be a good place to start...

But then again, I'm tayloring my skydiving to suit BASE, I don't freefly or swoop & I'm more bothered about where I'm landing (as well as everyone else).

Maybe having a certain amount of 7 cell (logged) jumps could be a better way of preparing students ?

Honestly, I think it's going to depend on how you define "some" and "lots" of experience.

I'd prefer to see people do a structured skydiving progression including CRW, tracking, rigging, accuracy, and more CRW, preferably all on their intended BASE canopy. If someone had done something like this, it took them 100 jumps, but that was all the skydives they'd ever made, I'd feel more confortable with them than I would with someone who had 1000 skydives of which 50 were big F-111 7 cells, with no particular set of skills or learning progression.

I guess what I'm saying is that in this, as in many things, the quality of those jumps is going to be at least as important as the quantity.

I GC'd a guy last night who I found out had 80 skydives when he started BASE. I asked him if he found he lacked some skills when he did some of his objects (and he has done some hardcore objects) and he said that his profession (professional climber) had prepared him more for BASE than skydiving ever could. His arguement was that dealing with "high stress" situations is half the battle, and I now have to agree. A skydiver who has done nothing but 150 skydives is not prepared to BASE. A skydiver with lots of free climbing and other "high stress" activities is well prepared (as long as they have done the 7 cell prep).

I go back to when I had 150 skydives, I thought i was ready for BASE and I met up with 10+ UK jumpers to try and break into the scene and get accepted as someone ready to jump, I was trying to tell these jumpers that "I was ready" and would do anything to jump - I was told "if we see you on an object we are going to kick your head in" - I listened to the stories and watched a guy on crutches wonder about, after this meeting I realised I really was not ready for it..........

I went away with my 150 jumps and spent another 2 years doing accuracy and CRW and then did a FJC when I had 500 jumps..........

I now jump with one of the guys I first met who threated "to kick my head in" and have met a couple of the guys on that first meeting who give me respect that I bothered to go out and do the right thing in being able to jump

I had spent 2 years researching BASE when I had 150 skydives and still found that I was not ready although I thought i was, I also got a rough deal from the local jumpers as someone with 150 jumps REALLY IS NOT READY to BASE.

Generally 150 skydives is tooooooo low a number to let someone loose back in their home country to think they can go BASE, I gave my example at the start to show sometimes there is an acception, but generally I dont think 150 is a good enough level................ 500 is more realistic..........

Why do the manufacturers offer FJC's at 150 jumps? what is the arguement for this?

If they are going to set a minimum, they have to just pick something.

Remember that they are in the business of making money (as well as BASE gear), so the more stringent the requirements, the less money they make. If they make so little money that they go out of business, we all lose, since they no longer provide instruction (or gear) at all.

When I originally started into BASE, I was told 200 jumps (not 150). I believe that the 150 was the BR number, and 200 was the CR number (if I recall correctly other manufacturers had set different numbers). As I recall the 200 was set as "D license or equivalent", so the 200 really came from the USPA requirements.

I totally agree with you about the mindset being the important thing. In my view, the "teens" theory fits really well. You need to go through your "teens" doing something else (preferably something safer), so that when you get to BASE, you've already had that (life threatening) stage. I think the current problem is that 200 skydives has moved from being "post-teen" to being "teen", with the current state of skydiving.

Explain please Tom...
Doing 'F*ck all in 200 skydives 10 years ago vs doing F*ck all in 200 skydives today.....is pretty much the same right?

In 1990 (for example) doing 200 skydives meant, at a minimum, spending a year or so heading to the DZ every weekend, hanging out and talking to (and learning from) people, seeing things happen, and potentially having some things happen to you (since the gear was less reliable).

Today, you could crank out your 200 skydives in a month, given appropriate funding (if you could just camp at Eloy for a month, for example). I'm not sure this would give you the same kind of perspective that you'd get from that year back in 1990.

But I agree that what you do on the skydives is far more important than how many of them you make.

Ten years ago there were few skydivers that would do fuck all because the safety margins didn't allow it. Gear improvements (square reserves, three-rings, AADs, RSLs, Sky-hooks, etcetera) have brought skydiving to the point where even people without a survival attitude can manage to stay alive.

It used to be a big deal when you had two hundred skydives. Now even two thousand isn't very much. You can see the same happen in base jumping too. I think that base jumpers of ten years ago were a lot more heads-up, mainly because the safety margins were smaller.

Added safety allows for lesser capable to join. If bowling balls would explode when not handled carefully, different people would play the game.

Of course, whether or not this is a good thing is up for debate. It seems that in both base and skydiving, gear and other safety improvements mitigate Darwinism. So far the balance holds and the yearly fatality rate remains consistent. Recently though, experienced base jumpers have begun to forecast an impending doom.

As for my opinion in regards to skydiving experience requirements; I'd say most problems in the sport are caused by lack of fear, lack of respect, lack of common sense and lack of knowledge about base-history. No amount of skydiving experience is going to fix that.

Edited to add to myself:


I actually think the current state of affairs isn't nearly as bad as one just reading these forums might believe. The vast majority of base jumpers has great respect for the sport and strongly believes in contacting the locals wherever they go. It's just that all the good people have better things to do than post-whore on Dropzone.com heehee!

I voted 150-450 jumps with some big f1-11 jumps. I think I was more like at 650 jumps with around 70 big (190 - 240range) f1-11 jumps. Some were accuraccy, my first rig was actually f1-11. But I didnt want to put "lots of f1-11" because I would think lots would imply more than 10% of my jumps.

Nic

Ok....I hear what you are saying.....

(dont talk too loudly about the exploding bowling ball gig......ESPN will be right on it !)

That's a nugget for sure.

Well, I`ve checked my logbook. I have 80+ jumps with F111 200sqft or bigger. I have about 40 jumps on a FC Maverick ( 200sqft, 7cell ), but I don`t feel ready for this step.

It is a wise man that knows his limits...