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Did you know that it's perfectly legal to jump from the cliffs of Lake Pow***?
Tip: Just make sure you don't use a parachute. The attached pics will show you what is LEGAL (an ad from a recent backcountry.com ad) and ILLEGAL (a base jump from a 220' cliff).

God Bless America....

Non-powered, non-polluting, non-intrusive, and harmless.......but still illegal?

I'm confused. Powers? Powwow? Powder?



But yes, it is ridiculous. Welcome to free country USA.

It's true. I've made many cliff jumps into Lake Powell without a parachute.

I was standing atop a 90 footer once and the lake patrol boat came out and parked to watch me. I don't know why, but I yelled down to ask them if they'd arrest me if I jumped. It's not like I could think of any reason it should be illegal, but I inherently distrust authority figures, so I figured they were waiting for me to do something wrong.

They replied that there's no rule against it, but that jumping off the cliff would be stupid and they advised against it.

I jumped, landed, climbed back up and jumped again.

They motored off without another word.

What would have happened if I took a bed sheet up there with me?

You can just make out the name of the lake in the second photo.

Yes, but that's just the name of the lake into which the legal jump occurred...

Same story in Yosemite.

If there was a nice rock next to the Merced river, say a nice 80 footer with a deep swimming hole at the base, you could jump off all day and not be in any trouble.

If you put on a BASE rig and did a static line jump from the exact same spot and landed in the exact same swimming hole, suddenly you're guilty of illegal aerial delivery.

Now, even after you paid to enter the park, and were already legally standing inside the national park, you somehow "delivered yourself into the park by parachute."

I paid the admission into Yosemite, legally hiked to the summit of the big stone there, and parachuted to the valley floor. I was found guilty of illegal air delivery even though I never deliverd anything into the national park. My jump started after I was already inside the park.

If I would have jumped from the same spot without a parachute and somehow miraculously survived, I would have been in less trouble. Probably none at all.

More proof that the air delivery law is not based on any logic, other than "BASE jumpers are bad."

Same here in 1996 but did not get cought

Any way here is the definition (again):


As Chad said we are not delivering anything that is not already there.

I don't understand how a good attorney is not able to have the charge dismissed.

I wonder what the ACLU thinks of this.

Hmm... so if a friend (I mean a "stranger") held a gun to your head at the exit point, handed you a BASE rig, and told you to jump, would that be considered an emergency situation? And as long as you don't press charges against him for threatening your life, he didn't do anything wrong...

I do...

Do you mind to share...

Care to explain it to us?

Would this be true if you rode a helicopter which took off from and then landed in the park? After a 10 sec, 10ft flight? Perhaps the argument is that a canopy flight is like any other aircraft flight -- once you're in flight, you've effectively "left" the park...

On the other hand,
apparently, we must always keep at least one apendage on the ground at all times.
"Chlidren?! No running or jumping in the park!! Go outside if you want to do that..."

My argument is that BASE jumping is not illegal in the National Parks. If it is, then they need to come out and say it.

If it isn't, then they need to put a system in place for us to get permits, and then they need to actually issue permits.

Perhaps we need a 3000 foot tether on us when we jump so that we don't officially leave the ground. Tethers seem rather impractical though.

How can we create an emergency relating to a serious property loss?

Actually, Dead Steve Morrell (RIP), got busted for aerial delivery and creating and maintaining a hazardous condition. I think the laws could easily be changed as needed to persecute backcountry parachutists.

There are several reasons why a good attorney would not be able to get this thing dismissed.

The first is the regulation. It references "delivering or retrieving a person or object by parachute..." Just because you are in the park doesn't mean that a retrieval or a delivery does not happen. Try sending an e-mail to yourself. It is sent, delivered and retrieved to and from the same source. As written, the rule indicates that delivery (regardless of from where it was delivered) and retrievel (regardless of from where it was retrieved) is against the rule. It's that simple.

Second reason - history. Unfortunately, you've got a lot of BASE jumpers who have been charged and convicted of the same thing over and over under the same circumstances. This means that the court is going to do the same thing over and over until an appeals court says otherwise. Is Judge Best still operating that court? If so, you think he's gonna up and change his mind on you?

Third reason - ineffective arguments of defendants. I'll admit that when I see some examples of letters and requests made to Yosemite to jump there, I shake my head. Too many of these would make nice fluff in a lint trap. Ask Chuck Brown of Russel Webb on here about clients who say the judge wouldn't even listen to them when they tried talking. If it doesn't go to an element of the case, the court doesn't want to hear it.

This creates another problem, too. Counsel can't say much, either, because the judge has already made rulings, etc., in the past that make argument by counsel useless quite often.

Fourth problem - resources. Attorneys can't just show up in court and shoot from the hip. They need to learn the facts, the law, and prepare themselves thoroughly for court. This takes time. Lawyer time equals money. Give a lawyer $10k to defend you, you'll therefore have an attorney who can possibly get an acquittal.

Or, the attorney can prepare a brief getting the judge to overturn the Regulation on which the jumper is charged. That is rare, especially for a judge who has used it countless times to convict somebody. Then again, maybe he's been willing all along to overturn it, but nobody has ever bothered to ask.

Or, if the acquittal doesn't happen, then the attorney with the resources can go to the 9th Circuit and appeal it. But, he better have made all of those arguments to the trial court that he makes to the 9th. This also has a flip side - it IS the 9th Circuit, and they may construe it to ban rock climbing and all sorts of stuff while they're at it. "We therefore read the regulation as banning the delivery of all objects by air. This includes, if the park superintendent so desires, picking a leaf off of a tree and dropping it, or leaping from rock to rock across the Merced River."

Final point - "dismissal." I'll paraphrase Vinnie Gambini from My Cousin Vinnie - "Two ute-ful BASE jumpahs were seen with parachutes coming off of El Capitan and landin' in da meadow. Der is NO WAY dat dis is gettin' dismissed."

I will be renting a boat and vacationing at Lake Pow*** next month with the wife. I am guessing it would be a bad idea to bring a rig onto the boat in case I see something real nice?

I would appreciate any feedback from anyone who has done something at this lake which is pretty damn big on the map.

A 90 footer?! Wow, that is high, I take it the landing didn't hurt cause you did it again. How do you go about landing in water that high without hurting yourself. I have learned not to keep your arms out and wear shoes on 40+ cause if not it hurts. Care to share your technique to landing from that high? Thanks.

Dale

What if you cut before you splash?

Maybe if someone was 'stealing' your car ?

>>I am guessing it would be a bad idea to bring a rig onto the boat in case I see something real nice?<<

Bring gear . . .

When John Wesley Pow*** first discovered the area in 1869 he called it a, "Vertical desert." The erection of the Glenn Canyon Dam in 1956 changed that in some regard but with the recent drought (you'll see the bathtub ring right away) there are hundreds of places to jump.

It helps to have a smaller boat with you to traverse narrow slot canyons, and facilitate pick ups, but BASE jumping there is just like most places. Be stealthy loading your stuff onto the houseboat and certainly don’t mention jumping to any of the dockhands. When you realize how big Lake Pow*** is use that to your advantage, and pass up the first jumpable sites you see. In fact your necks will ache from going, "Look here, Oh my god, now look over there!"

Also keep in mind round BASE jumps are perfect here because of the water landings and if something happens it's much better to brush a wall with a round than slam into it with a square.

Bon Voyage!

NickD
BASE 194

People have been busted there based on just having gear in their boat.

Rick H. (now head of the United States BASE Association and occasional reader of these forums) was able to beat the rap for Aerial Delivery some time in the way back, on behalf of himself and another jumper (Rick's a real lawyer, so he wasn't just some yahoo trying to defend himself in court). I haven't ever asked him details on how he did that, but perhaps he'll read this and chime in. Perhaps it's just that Rick is a better than good attorney, though.


Do you think this also applies to jumps made from the park, but landed outside the park boundary? I know of one case where jumpers were busted like that, and they plea bargained, so it never saw court.


Isn't that what the trial court decided in Oxx, though?

Are you suggetsing a WS jump?

>>People have been busted there based on just having gear in their boat.<<

Tom's right and I should have mentioned that.

I've always thought at places like this we should jump as much as possible, even if it means someone gets caught once in awhile. Just make sure you are prepared as the consequences can be steep.

We owe that to Dennis who went to jail for months fighting to jump there.

The battle for legal BASE would suffer if the powers that be didn't see how important BASE is to so many people. If they didn't realize people are actively jumping the issue falls off their radar screens. And I don’t think we will ever win the battle using lawyers and the courts.

We, those jumping now, probably won't benefit from the ground work already laid. While those "new" to the fight might disagree, my real hope now is BASE will finally be fully accepted in the future and by a more enlightened generation of people.

I think in the long run we will win not from asking permission but by telling those who somehow think they have the right to regulate our lives to go F themselves over and over and over again . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I actually know an exit that meets this criteria. It was shown to me by a friend of mine, who wears a green shirt to work in the back country.

At the time the regulation was worded differently and didn't specifically mention parachutes, so he was able to present stautory/regulatory construction arguments that got the charges dismissed.

I think soon after that case the DoI changed the regulation to specifically mention parachutes.

Rick was also saying that he couldn't beat that same rap now with the currently worded regs.

actually this is misusing the definition of delivery.. in your email example the email actually leaves your (virtual) location, goes somewhere else (the mail server) and returns.. a jumper never leaves the park..

unless the courts are using a different dictionary than the rest of the english speaking world this shouldnt apply...

the only way you could stretch it is if you consider the 'delivery' the act of jumping itself (as in a pitcher 'delivers' a pitch) but then you would also have to prosecute anyone who tosses gear to another person during any activity in the park...

the real problem is the goverment's (and the judge's) inability to admit they might have been mistaken in past rulings and act to correct it...

"stop making sense, you work for the goverment and we dont pay you for that....."

I have heard of Rick H. It is my understanding that due to his employment he has particular insight into the workings of federal regulations and the federal courts. But, I digress.

A guy like him WILL be able to beat raps like that. It doesn't cost nearly as much when you are doing the research to defend yourself. Especially someone with his talent and experience and intimate knowledge of the process. Cheers to him.


My ejumacaded guess is that you'd have to duke it out in court whether or not it would apply. Hopefully, you'll be outside the park (which may affect the jurisdiction of the rangers to pinch you). Still, it'll be delivery "from" the park, won't it?



Yep. And the trial court got reversed. Sure, the trial courts can do it, but you can probably be sure that Judge Wunderlich (I think Judge Best isn't there anymore) knows about this. He can dismiss it, which can lead to more costs on appeal for the jumper.

Sometimes, you are more ruined by winning a case than by losing one...

Welcome to my world, where terms are used and misused. Do legal arguments come down to semantics? You're damned straight. That's how rules get overturned - semantics.

yea that was the reason i could never be a lawyer ( although i do LOVE a good argument)

you have to agree on definitions BEFORE you can even begin negotiations... seems like the legal world has that completely backwards... lawyers and judges should have to write 'design decision and specification' documents (ala software development) that way there would be reference to exactly what the intent was behind every definition and how those defintions affected the verdict.. then we wouldnt have to rehash arguements over terms like 'well regulated' ...

I'm pretty sure they're using the "legalese" dictionary. That means we need an interpreter (like Lawrocket, for example) to tell us what it means in our language.


The NPS has busted climbers in the near past for tossing bags of gear off rocks.

It was my understanding that those busts also included a tarp intended to act as an aerodynamic decelerator. Were they charged with aerial delivery? or is there another reg about chucking gear from the wall?

Gardner

I figure landing wingsuit without a parachute in Yosemite would be perfectly legal. Just put tubes with small holes in Merced river and pump compressed air through them to make water very soft.

Who needs a parachute these days??? Right, Jeb?

Hello,
Yes isn't it ironic.
Very closely related to the roots of the aerial delivery law.
The irony being that.............
We've heard for years from the NPS that the reason the climbers seem to be able
to do whatever they want is because of their long historical presence.
The aerial delivery law was first implemented in other areas to reduce "squatting".
The law was twisted to be used against us for putting into freefall our bodies from backcountry cliffs, and then using a parachute for safe access back into the park.
Now the climbers use our technology in their sport, and get busted with that rascally old aerial delivery law. A search of morning reports should reveal the exact details, it was in the last year or so. I guess being able to huck piles of crap off the cliff makes it easier to "squatt" there a bit longer. Are some of the climbers overstaying their historical welcome?
Our sport definitely has less of an environmental impact in the park
than so many of its' other abusers.

Yes, and yes. Climbers generally use rain flies (from tents or portaledges) or similar pieces of adapted equipment. No one wants to carry a tarp up a wall just to toss with the bags. Besides, if you had a tarp, you'd need to schlare the dongles.

I'm sure the NPS would love to toss climbers out, too. But climbers have enough people (and money) to have political influence.

Do you know the story about the bolting ban and Senator Gorton?

Jonkels...

Avery:

I share the same frustration (yeah... I'm a master of understatement, huh?), but I certainly have no desire to chart a course for our own access by underscoring the damage done - or mistakes made -by the climbing community. I think they (as a user group) realize the nature of the thin ice on which they tread, and have taken strides to change their ethic in order to reduce their impacts. Many of OUR forebears came from the climbing community (and many still do), and I think we would all do better to remain allies than become enemies. Please understand this is not a chastisement; I'm merely trying to point out that we can make our case without pointing to their problems. It's simple, really: backcountry parachuting is a non-powered, non-polluting, non-damaging, and minimally intrusive activity... and that's basically all that needs to be said.

Tom: Haven't heard the story re: the bolting ban and Sen. Gorton. Please tell.

Gardner

Short version:

NPS wanted to ban replacement of fixed anchors on park service land.

Climbers obviously were against this.

President of REI calls his senator (Slade Gorton, R-WA).

Senator Gorton calls the director of the NPS. Mentions that the park service budget is up for review soon. Also mentions that he is chairman of the senate appropriations committee, which will do that review. Also mentions that a major employer in his home state, Recreational Equipment Incorporated, is concerned that a ban on fixed anchor replacement might hurt their bottom line, cause them to hire less voters, and contribute less to the Gorton campaign fund.

NPS decides that banning replacement of fixed anchors is not such a good idea.

Its funny how all things come 'down' to the bottom line.

Q:whats the guiding principle in american politics?

money talks

"in god we trust"

nevermind, they are trying to get that off US currency...

Paragliders are regulated under FAR 103 (Federal Aviation Regulations), regulations are very loose on the technical side (essentially anything that flies and weighs less than 155 pounds if unpowered).

Could a defence of parachute being an aircraft (for purpose of beating Lake Powell rap) make a parachute into an FAR 103 regulated unpowered ultralight?

Imagine ;->

jumper - "This is Mojo Bravo Alpha Sierra Echo niner niner niner with information Romeo".
tower - "City Tower niner niner niner"
jumper - "Requesting permission to enter City ATC. Altitude 260ft squawk 1200 niner niner niner"
tower - "City Tower. Identify your locataion"
jumper -"Erghh I am on top of the Best Eastern Bank tower downtown.eh..niner niner niner"
tower - "Altimeter setting two niner seven five, ......""

I think that defense has already been tried in one form or another. By that, I mean it was argued in one case that a parachute was an aircraft, and in another case I believe it was argued that a parachute WAS NOT an aircraft.

Further, we have it straight from the FAA that backcountry parachuting is not regulated by them because we do not depart from an aircraft; let's hope they maintain that stance.

Some of our problem (or maybe it is the ultimate solution) may, in fact, be that we do not exist under any regulatory structure... bear in mind I think things should remain that way. I would prefer no regulation... but to achieve access reasonable regulation may be something we'll have to consider.

-Gardner

I thought I posted this last night, but apparently I never hit the post button before shutting down.

Some more of the politics behind this: REI and Subaru are/were major contributors to the Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Education organization, which says it reaches approx. 10 million users per year with its message of leave no trace ethic. See this link for more info. In light of what you said, and considering REI's involvement with LNT.org, I'd say there was a considerable amount of crow eaten by the aforementioned NPS Dir.

Thanks for the info.

Gardner

And they were for the drilling of rocks and placement of bolts there? Not to bag on climbers, because I think we all do what we do for fun and that's okay, but I always wondered how climbers felt about the "Leave No Trace" ethic when they toss their trash off of walls and drill into rocks to place permanent bolts.

I feel guilty about just leaving a tailgate rubberband on each jump.

Lou

Please see my response to Avery, above, post #40.

Let us do the best WE can do to minimize our impacts wherever we are. The rest will sort itself out in time.



Gardner

Point taken.

It's virtually unheard of for modern big wall climbers in National Parks (or most other places) to toss trash. It's pretty environmentally unfriendly, and there is a strong peer pressure in the climbing world for environmental sensitivity.

Fixed anchors (such as bolts) actually reduce long term environmental impact. They do this by eliminating the need for repeatedly placing anchors that might damage the rock, and also by concentrating the traffic in one place (in this way, they are somewhat analagous to trails, which help preserve wilderness by concentrating foot traffic in one place, and away from the other places).

Further, fixed anchors are often critical for climbing safety. Imagine the outcry if the park service told us it was ok to BASE jump on their lands, but required us all to jump sub-100 foot swooping canopies in skydiving rigs.

It's kind of sad to see BASE jumpers falling prey to the stereotypes of climbers, when we're trying so hard to escape similar stereotypes ourselves.

I agree Tom, and I was always yelling at Andy C. when he was doing The BASE Gazette about dissing skydivers in order to promote BASE jumping. I also advise people to not blame paragliding when getting busted downtown, or on some other sport when lying injured in a hospital.

However when I hear the climbing argument from BASE jumpers I sort of understand it because no matter how they say it, what they really mean is they don’t get why climbers are allowed to climb and jumpers aren't allowed to jump.

The tradition argument we hear in return doesn't work. If true then all we have to do is keep on jumping for another twenty years and presto, it's a tradition and we'll be allowed to jump. But, we know that won’t happen.

So we should keep the inequity of it on the front burner but not by trying to limit the access of someone else.

You can look abroad to Europe and elsewhere and see environmental and jumper behavior problems are starting to cause problems. So we should also be careful about using the "less impact" argument. No matter how hard we try BASE does have an impact. And sadly, there will always be those among us that will see to that . . .

Someday they will have to allow us into the Parks warts and all simply because it's fair.

NickD
BASE 194

Q:whats the guiding principle in american politics?

most worldly politics actually

I've been wondering about this issue. Any "for instances" without being overly specific? For the most part, I don't see BASE being more damaging than hiking or especially climbing.

>>I've been wondering about this issue. Any "for instances" without being overly specific?<<

That's easy. It's right on the current page . . .

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

NickD
BASE 194

Maybe, As BASE jumpers, we need these illegal jumps. as in they add a level of enjoyment that legal jumps cant provide. not that i wouldn't mind doing one in the daylight now and then.

How about we get REI to start selling BASE gear? Then they'll bully the NPS around a bit and VIOLA Problem solved.

In the immortal words of Dwain Weston:

"I am so over the James Bond shit."

Maybe so, but not until after you've done it a couple of times. I'm still a kid and there are few things more fun than sneaking around in the dark.

Base is the only illegal thing I can ethically reconcile with my ideas about what is right and wrong. I can take video, leave only footprints, break nothing and hurt nobody in the process but myself, and still stick it to the man.

I guess over time I'll change my mind. For now I'll be the young punk that isn't afraid to admit he likes to sneak around. That is; until I get to ride in the back of a police car, stay in jail overnight, take a shower in the morning, and then end up dropping the soap-bar.

Considering I'm not posting anonymously, this post might be a little too honest. Ah, what the heck...

I will be 18 forever. its just, now that im out of high school, its getting harder and harder to pissoff the dean. i have ravaged his school, destroyed his reputation, and done his daughter, i'm moving on.

but really, I would do anything with any group of jumpers to help the legal situation in NPs, but until somebody gets something going and invites me to help, I love this James Bond Shit.
Cheers tom,
your posts and governing serve these forums well, i hope we will jump together soon. say, memorial day TF?

I wonder if the NPS is reading this right now.

I like your style, It brings to mind an answer to a question. It goes like this. Adult to kid: "What do you want to be when you grow up?", Kid: " BASE jumper!", Adult: "Not possible, One can grow up or be a BASE jumper. not both".
Take care,
space

In the immortal words of Dwain Weston:

"I am so over the James Bond shit."
Amen, Brother

Plenty of sneaking around to be had on buildings, if you want.

Funny. That's what my wife keeps saying.

In the mortal words of Marta P.

"You make a lot of legal BASE jumps, and you get lame . . ."

NickD
BASE 194

I've still got more "less than legal" jumps than legal ones. But that does look set to change sometime this summer.

As I said, there are always going to be plenty of "sneaky" jumps to be had in cities and the like. I don't see "we need the excitement of law breaking" as a very persuasive argument for keeping the NPS prohibition against jumping.

legal? whats that?

In other words:

As BASE jumpers we need to send piles of money to the government so they can keep us off our land and then spend thousands more going to foreign countries where we can kick back and relax by making multiple jumps in a day without having to get up before sunrise?

I don't agree. It should be legal although allowing helicopters year round would be obnoxious for the other park guests.

yeah speaking of US arround here i wont beabel to jump anything at workdays if it should be legal

Amen sistah!

Both types of jumps have their merits. Obviously with legal jumps, dealing with The Man is not an issue, so that's one thing not cluttering up your mind.

I've personally found that on the legal objects I tend to try more difficult aerial flippy-do type stuff, probably because I'm more relaxed mentally.

But it's also hard to beat finding a 270-foot crane, analyze the area, dodge a couple of nosy suit-types, jump the object and land successfully. Brits, myself and a newer jumper Darryl just did this and we all agreed that the adrenaline on those sorts of things is hard to beat.

They are both fun and they both scratch different itches. I don't see myself getting "over the James Bond shit" anytime soon. I LIKE the James Bond shit.

As far as the NPS goes, I personally think our jumps SHOULD be legal. So long as I'm not endangering the park or other people, I should have the right to do whatever I please in MY park.

Helicoptors should never be allowed in the park. If you want the jump in NPS land then I believe you should hike it. People are 'guests' there, however there is a huge wildlife population that lives there year round.

The FAA has strict rules about flying in and above National parks and wilderness sanctuaries. I beleive the current rule to maintain at least 2000 ft. vertical clearance of the highest point. But I dont have my FAR's on me right now, so I could be wrong.

You were probably joking about the helicoptors now that I think about it. oh well.

-nic

An amazingly enlightened viewpoint for an American, a BASE jumper, and a pilot. Sometimes, I have hope for us.

Make that 2 of us.

You know, I wouldn't even mind if the NPS kept BASE jumping on their do not do list.

Seriously, I think the cloak and dagger stuff is cool too.

But damn, why do they have to be so hard on us? It would be one thing if they cited us and handed us a $500 ticket then sent us on our way. That I could deal with. (I could make myself feel better by telling myself the money was going to relocate the cute little bears that are ripping off car doors or something. Maybe feeding the little squirrels at the pizza place... cute little bastards.)

Our bust last summer cost (between both of us) around $8000 all said and done. That's including rigs, fines, and other equipment permanently confiscated. Oh, and could I get a year of probation on the side, please?

Think about that, what did I do?
Did I rob a bank?
Did I hold up the little shops in Curry Villlage?
Did I get drunk and drive around running over road signs?
Did I assault a Park Ranger?

No, I parachuted off a cliff. I paid the entry fee into the park, hiked out my trash, and even landed on a path in the meadow, not even disturbing a single blade of grass.

The punishment does not fit the crime. As far as I'm concerned, I would be endangering the public far more if I would have driven drunk.

While we were in court, a person was charged with a DUI. Their fine was $1500 and they were given probation. Did the NPS keep their car?

Nope.

At least there's written laws about getting drunk and driving around.

I want someone to explain to me how my parachute jump was over five times as dangerous to the public than drunk driving. That's what the court seems to be trying to tell us.

they might saw your landing after all

sorry mate couldnt resist

Hey dude! my landing was flawless!


...well, right up to the handcuffs, I suppose...

As a working Commercial Pilot myself, I agree, no chopers in the park. That would just be rude.

Dexter has the right idea, 500dollar ticket on the spot, hell, i would turn around and start packing again right there!

Yeah!
I agree!
and disagree...
My first year of jumping kinda made me grow up,
(not in the sense of James Bond Shit and the deans' daughter) but i had to find respect for what i was doing and all the other jumpers. Watching somebody die has that effect on a child... hear is to Dwain, I wish i had known him better.

"Only in America, we stamp our God 'In God We Trust'...

Scott Stapp, Creed

"Beautiful Planet, rotten world..."

Good one, Avery.

Peace,
K

God money’s not looking for the cure.
God money’s not concerned with the sick among the pure.
God money let’s go dancing on the backs of the bruised.
God money’s not one to choose...

(same concept, different artist)

I'd rather Die than give you control!!!

Jason