Basejumper.com - archive

How many base parents do we have out there? I haven't taken the plunge yet but I'm working on it
( about three years....hey, at least I'm honest ). I had a minor quarrel w/ my mother regarding base jumpers being narcissistic. Argument being that, prior to engaging in such dangerous endeavors, one should think of all of the people who love them. She doesn't think that parents should base jump, she thinks it's selfish! I don't know what to tell her...

Perhaps that she has a good point?

Have a read here.

The answer to this really depends. Are we talking parents of 30+ year olds or 15- year olds. 30+ year old (should) be on their own, but 15-... no way... at least not without lots of life insurance (which really isn't enough, but it at least points for good intentions (what's a 5yo going to do with a bunch of life insurance payoff?))

I, personally, won't mentor would-be jumpers who have kids. It's one thing to make an agreement with your spouse or partner who is (hopefully) of age, and able to be independent if something should happen to you (permanent injury probably being the worst, of course death is the obvious fear.). Two adults who enter an agreement together are able to calculate what the potential consequences of a worst case situation are, and then make plans to adapt to them.

However, children aren't given that choice. Children are wholely dependent on their parents (up to a certain age) and they -can't- survive independently. They are operating with the faith that their parents will do their utmost to stick around and be there for them. While, BASE is a potential risk and is not -certain- bad results, it definitely increases the liklihood that a parent will be unable to provide for their family. (injuries can mean job loss, hospitalization, death). Having children is a responsibility that involves more than simply paying to keep them alive. It involves real parenting. Anything you do which intentionally puts you in a position where you might lose that ability should only be done so with the agreement of all the team members. If your spouse agrees that he/she will be comfortable, you have -one- member of your family's approval... now ask each child: "I want to go risk my life, and I may die, and you won't have me as a parent anymore. Your life would change dramatically...". Although no matter what their answer is, you'll know that they aren't old/aware enough to understand the scope of what's happening.

It's selfish in the Randian sense (YAY!) but it's also selfish in the non-Randian sense... I'm curious what your own thoughts on the matter are. Can you state them? If you can't I'll remind you of Goethe's thoughts "If you don't have the words, you don't have the thought."

-=Raistlin

We all put our lives at more risk driving to and from the sites. What would you be teaching your child by not doing the things in life you have a true passion for? Don't do something little Johnny if you might be hurt! You take just as much of a risk driving to work intentionally, maybe more, there are so many idiots out there to take you out! Lets face it SHIT happens, no matter what your doing. BASE is a risky sport, but so is any sport. A few years ago a risk management company calculated per capita skydiving blew all other sports out of the water! Including hockey, football, and even cycling!BASE is obviously more risky still. Would you then say that once you have kids you should quit everything that puts you at risk? That would be a very sheltered life you would have to live.

I've heard this argument about skydiving but never about BASE!


Are you arguing for or against yourself here? Earlier you implied BASE wasn't statistically more dangerous than things we do in everyday life.

Since you've been BASE jumping, how many funerals for BASE jumpers have you:
heard of?
attended?
hosted?
spoken at?

Skydiving is not BASE jumping, it's not a matter of taking the results of a statistic regarding skydiving, adding a random delta and then considering the matter closed.

The BASE fatality list is very clear that it is -not- necessarily an authoritative source for the current death count in the sport, and it certainly doesn't mention all those who are forever injured due to the sport.



You haven't done or seen some of the BASE jumps I have, if you truly believe this. If you want to argue this on the principle that "parents have just as much right to live full and complete lives as non-parents", it speaks more to the opinions about the responsibilities of parenthood than it does to your understanding of the risks of BASE.




Do you really believe this? Have you never told others that BASE is a very unforgiving, high risk activity that has a high injury and fatality rate? Do you paint BASE with the same brush you do tennis, cycling,synchronized swimming, football, track, and hockey? If so, it is certainly your perogative to do so, however you'll respectfully understand that others may see things differently.

I'm curious if you have experience with parents who indulge in their own high risk activities which have resulted in their own self-destruction. Whether it be alcohol, dangerous driving habits, drug use, sports, fights, etc. Do you have any experience with children being raised by a single parent who is also nursing a (self inflicted) damaged spouse?

Parenting, like BASE, is a very personal experience, and your decisions are yours and I have little interest in changing them, although I'd like to understand them.

I assume that your point of view is more complex than: because taken to it's logical conclusion (which, granted, is never a reasonable approach to any discussion, but since you've already thrown the switch towards me, I'll throw it back towards you, and maybe it will land in the middle.) a parent who indulge in -all- risks exposes their children to all possible results of such dangers, with riskier and riskier activities until the law of probability wins, and the participant(/parent) lays in a broken wreck. Where does this leave the children? Likely with a single parent saying something to the effect of: "Little Johnny your other parent is dead/can't talk/walk/think because taking risks was very important to him/her, and he/she was okay with the fact that it's -you- who must pay the price.".

There's a fine line between taking calculated risks and being just plain stupid. Falling on the wrong side of that line paints a very clear and unalterable picture to a child. (and often other jumpers)

-=Raistlin

(edited to imply gender nuetrality)

>>We all put our lives at more risk driving to and from the sites.<<

Hi Lonnie,

From an injury standpoint, I'm not sure I can agree with that.

Of course, in my case, the analogy didn't pan out in skydiving either, LOL . . .

On the issue of children you do give up some freedom if you chose to have them, or you aren’t doing your job.

A good friend of mine, a very experienced and active BASE jumper, lost his wife to an illness, and it was very hard on their two young children. He gave up the sport because taking the chance his kids might lose their last remaining parent was too much for him to bear.

Sure, he might still get run down by a bus one day, and people would say that's sad. However, if it came to pass he died BASE jumping, right or wrong, it would be said he was being selfish.

NickD
BASE 194

There's another interesting angle to this . . .

The sport is old enough now that I thought we'd be seeing more than a few second generation BASE jumpers.

In about 1990 I knew Don Boyles (the first to jump the RGB in the 70s) had a son and daughter that made some BASE jumps. But right now I know more young BASE jumpers whose parents were skydivers, not BASE jumpers.

It may be the natural way offspring rebel, or at least, have little interest in what their parents do. At least I hope that's it, or else it means no spouse will have us, or we don’t survive long enough to pass on the sport to our children . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Stats don't lie, we all know that driving a car is far more dangerous than flying. Your chances of dying in a car crash far out weigh the chances of dying in any sport
My point is we live in a world where nothing is certain. We all take risks every day, calculated risks but risks just the same.Riding your bike down the street is taking a risk, very big risk, as more die doing this than many so called high risk sports. The list which still stands under 90, for all the base jumps made since the beginning shows that you have a higher risk of dying on a bike than in base. If your speaking of Todd, I too may have quit jumping in that same scenario, however before that he did still jump. As far as what people would say or think, there will always be some who will diagree with the way you conduct your life.I AGREE that once you become a parent you MUST give up some freedom, but why jumping, why not mountainbiking, or drinking,hockey,football......
We can't live in a plastic bubble, every day is a risk.
Do you feel the same towards skydiving? If not then why?

Lonnie, you know stats are funny things.

How do you think they'd look if as many people BASE jumped as drive cars?

I'm just saying, in my personal experience, I've known more jumpers who were injured or killed while jumping than driving . . . In fact, I know more people that were killed flying in planes (on the DZ and off) than driving in cars.

So in my world, jumping and flying are more dangerous than driving . . .

NickD
BASE 194

<swings chair around and gets back to life>

-=Raistlin

Yes they are,but the stats are per capita

I just don't understand why you think anyone should quit just because they have kids, when there is so many other things that can leave them without a parent?

I'm pretty sure that's not something he said.

 " Perhaps that she has a good point? " I think.....no, I know you're both right ( Tom ). She hasn't even done any research and her argument is already blazing hot ( that...and she's my mom). Although I don't believe base jumpers to be selfish in any way shape or form. Why do you think she has a good point? ( just for the sake of parley ).

I posted this thread in hopes of further understanding the base psychology ( morals, values etc)...not to get ammo for an argument ( o.k that was my only disclaimer ).

What are my views ( SkyDaemon ):

I have told my gf that when we get a child I would leave the base community and all that it would encompass ( I have to become a member first). After having a child, ones actions do not only affect your life but your childs as well. Of course the child has no power to pick and choose it's parents therefore one could easily say " to bad, I may have a kid but I will do what I want ". Maybe true..... but the life of a child is so fresh. It should not be squandered, tarnished or poorly affected due to the life style, pass time ( whatever we individually classify base as..) of a parent. As a mature adult I would see it as my duty to ensure a father figure in my child's life. A healthy growing environment is far more significant then chasing my own dreams and passions ( not to say that a fatherless home is defective. I come from one myself ). Death could greet you at any given time. You could die driving in your car ( I agree w/ Lonnie ). The issue here is that driving is mandatory for most fathers.....base is not.
Why turn up the heat in an already burning sauna.

* Ideally, when I have kids I would quit and take it up again when my partner and I would feel as if the kid/s are mature enough to decide and direct their own actions. Jumping with young kids at home would surely make me feel selfish but without kids I see nothing selfish in living the life I think I was meant to live *



Godspeed....

That's a very mature and reasonable approach to both BASE and parenthood. I wish you well in both.

-=Raistlin

   "I have told my gf that when we get a child I would leave the base community... "

Nice theory...
Being a parent and a BASE jumper is like living a paradox.
On one hand you have you "self-centred" desires and goals
On the other your family

I know several BASE jumping parents... and I've KNOWN some too!

If your a parent and a BASE jumper, your child WILL BE your biggest concern on EVERY BASE jump!! The BIGGEST RISK!

A quote to ponder: (Author unknown)
Subject: Starting BASE

“Don’t worry about how to start BASE jumping, worry about how your going to stop”

The hardest question I every had to answer was from my daughter, 4 years old.

“Dad, is BASE jumping dangerous??”

Make your desision now!! It's too late after your 1st jump

If I ever take up drugs, like real hard drugs, I want the same as Lonnie is useing, must be some good she-at.

your details say you have over 2000 jumps
now surely you know some skydivers or know of some who died.
how many do you know died driving to the dropzone
everytime I've heard the "ya more likely to die driving there" BS on here I've asked "does any1 here know of any1 who has died driving to the dropzone?."

I'm yet to know of a person here who has.

go into the incidents forum, and read how many of thel ast hundred deaths were by a person driving to the dropzone.

if you think driving a car is more dangerous then BASE jumping your on some dam good smack, you should go into business selling these drugs you won't get done for it, because any cop that arrests ya will simply see how it makes you and want to try some.

I'm guessing your a parent who wants to take up BASE or is thinking of having kids and taking up BASE or somthing.

Nick your the man of knowledge how many BASE jumpers have died driving to a site ?
I know of 1 who fell off a cliff but has any1 died driving there ?

Average age of a Bridge Day jumper is 36, average number of jumps is 1,100 and 12% are women.

Based on this stat alone I am positive there are many parents on Bridge Day.

I would not be surprised if some people jumping on well-known cliffs in Europe had children.

But I would not expect to see parents in situations
like an office tower in the evening or antenna in the rain.

That's from a non-jumper who has children.

It appears you are the only one else, who actually IS a parent.My kids are ALWAYS on my mind, whether I'm jumping or not,I don't drink or do drugs! My drug is life and I choose to live it to the fullest, and I have always taught my kids to do the same! If they have a passion to pursue it, whatever that passion may be! It doesn't matter if it's golf, or racing cars, shit happens. The point I tried to make, that some took to the literal end is there are lots of risks we take daily, jumping being only one of them.

>>Nick your the man of knowledge how many BASE jumpers have died driving to a site ?<<

Just from memory I know of only two BASE jumpers who have died in car accidents. Mike Allen is killed traveling between DZs in Florida. John Hoover is killed when his truck went off the road, but I don't know where he was going or coming from. There is also one BASE jumper killed in a motorbike accident . . .

The main causes of death for BASE jumpers when not actually BASE jumping seems to be skydiving, plane crashes, suicide, and illnesses . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I'm going to be a daddy and I couldn't agree more. I made the decision to quite 14 weeks ago when my life changed forever. I do hope to be back one day. Time will tell. Until then C-ya
Kevin

You know there are ways of reducing the risks in the sport of basejumping and being a parent is one of them. I would hope that being a parent would limit your the risks your willing to take because there is after alll more to lose. How many time have you or someone you know jumped in less then ideal conditions or increased there risk by introducing a higher degree of dificulty to the jump. Lets face it, if everyone had the proper training, jumped in ideal conditions, didn't try to push the limits of altitude,arials,wingsuit flight, fly a properly loaded canopy for the landing area, wore proper protective gear and didn't jump out of there ability; less would die. I'm a firefighter and if we just ran into burning buildings we would die, but we reduce our risks by wearing proper protective gear and limit our exposure to risk, doing this we can survive for a 30 year career. Safty is a huge part of our profession. Its only complacency and not following your own safty guidlines that accidents happen. Sure sometimes shit happens ,but if your an experianced Basejumper who keeps to the basics you can greatly reduce your risk and live longer. The key is keeping it simple. If your a basejumper who has been increasingly doing jumps that are more risky eventually something will happen. Once you are a parent you have a responsibility if you still jump to regress to your early days of jumping and keep it simple the way you used too. I personnaly started basejumping in 1993 at bridge day. I stopped jumping in 1996 when I got married and started to have kids, I have three. But it wasn't until 2001 when the equipment that was being offered (BASE specific) that I really could say I felt comfortable in taking the risks involved in BASE. I came back to BASE making sure that if something ever happen to me my family was taken care of. I keep my jumping simple. Its enough of a rush without adding difficulty to the jump.
I would love to push the limits in the sport, but I'll leave that to the single guys.

>>I'm going to be a daddy and I couldn't agree more.<<

That's really wonderful news, Kevin !!!

NickD
BASE 194

That's a personal attack. I've banned you from this forum for 14 days.

If you find yourself wanting to comment on a poster personally, rather than the content of what they are saying, you probably ought to reconsider.

Lonnie took up BASE 1100 jumps ago. That's 1100 BASE jumps. I'd hazard a guess that he is the person on earth with the most experience at being a BASE jumping parent.

This is by far the biggest discussion that enters my brain. I am a BASE parent and freshly divorced with 50% custody so I have my daughter week on and week off. Certainly, married or separated I have spent all my time focussed on my child which is why I chose to stop jumping altogether for the last few years until I got things sorted out logistically and emotionally. However, I am gearing up to start up again on the weeks that I am without child because the activity gives me a certain passion for life. I feel that such passion is critical to me and my journey with my daughter at this particular point.

It seems that the question of any activity can be plagued by the nagging thought of being selfish and the higher the risk activity the grayer the area of discussion becomes. But what holds true for me is that I believe that the spirit of the child has ultimately chosen you as a parent when he/she enters the world and your natural spirit is what he/she seeks to understand and grow from like a seed in a garden. the only real question you have to ask is did he/she choose you for the journey that you would endure in adventure/risk or the journey you would endure in sacrifice and you have to really look inside yourself for the deep inner part of you that you believe fires your soul. It is this thought that sets my foot over any cliff.

Nick, you always bring a rather spiritual perpective to these types of posts(actually most of the posts). But it is not clear to me what you would choose to do although I am sensing you would stop jumping. Am i right? I agree that if I were the remaining parent in this world for my daughter I would start to sacfrifice certain activities becasue the mountains will always be there and you are never to old to BASE jump right?? So, perhaps that is the lesson that I was meant to learn from the spirit that I chose to bring into the world. It would be interesting to hear from your friend Nick. He is a great man, I have often wondered of his personal thoughts on jumping, in between the none stop chores of parenting:) On any given day I wonder if he too looks far into the future when he can at least dream of a jump when his children have found their own path in adulthood.

If there is no peace in your heart before the Jump, there is no peace during or after. It's kinda like throwing a WDI of the heart. Are you at peace with your child's journey on this planet without you. if so, get up and walk out your front door and take a deep deep breath.

A lot of car crashes involve alcohol. Have half the jumpers start getting wasted before the jumps and see what the fatality rate is...

That's the only fair comparison.

If I was a very experienced BASE jumper when I got pregnant, I MIGHT have decided to continue jumping.

But I was very much a novice and already enrolled in the school of hard knocks. So I chose to hang it up. Pun intended.

It is a very dangerous sport. So don't fool yourself. And you cannot fool a mother.

If you are willing to accept the risk and pursue your passion, your Mom will see how happy it makes you. She may not like the risk factor, but if she loves you, she'll grow to accept your choice.

Just make good choices, and make her proud.

Hi Lonnie,
Man ya know I like you but that just can't be right. I know I have been hurt a LOT more BASE jumping than I ever was in a car accident.

How about you?

yes, there is more danger driving to the site than jumping. I drive to all my sites at a minimum speed of at least 170mph!

I am a BASE parent. I have two absolutely awesome, wonderful, beautiful children. They are one of the most amazing things that I have achieved/done in life. And given the quality of life I have had, that is a big statement.

How has it all affected my hobbies / interests / BASE / etc?

Absolutely. But it is by choice and it was not forced upon me.

I think it was Nick DG that said something like "On the issue of children you do give up some freedom if you chose to have them, or you aren’t doing your job."

Its not a job, its a lifestyle choice. And I'm pretty sure that money is always going out, not coming in (except from gifts from grand parents).

I have to disagree with you on this one Nick. Having children is a conscious decision to change your priorities in life. And if you have consciously made that decision without accepting the fact that you will have less time to pursue other activities, you are extremely naive and ignorant. You have not lost any freedom. You do however, have to be much more efficient about the way you live your life. You can't just drop everything and go for a jump. You have to plan ahead. You also have to be flexible enough to alter your plans.

You have no less or no more freedom when you have kids. You can still travel around the planet and spend all your time jumping. But, if you do this, why in hells name did you have kids for in the first place? People who think they have lost there freedom have not thought about all the consequences and responsibilities involved with children. They have made a mistake.

We all have 24 hours each day and seven days each week, etc. If you fill 100% of this time with activities, you have no time left. If you want to pursue other activities or interests, guess what, something has to give.

On a personal level, I jump much less now than I have in the past. When I do jump, it is usually focused training camps and international competitions with BASE jumps thrown in during my travels. I occasionally sneak a few jumps in when I do find spare time amongst all my other commitments and interests.

I have mellowed somewhat in terms of the quantity and risk level of my jumps. This is due to a number of reasons. Children is one, long time in the sport making a lot of higher risk jumps has had a greater impact, losing jumping buddies (not because I lost them, but because I don't have their company anymore), changing priorities / commitments / life goals, other interests, etc.

I have also been very lucky to have an understanding wife.

I will never stop BASE jumping, even if I have already made my last jump. I will always be a BASE jumper in my heart. It has been an integral part of who I am during a part of my life where I have undergone immense personal development. And NO ONE can take that away from me.

I think doing really high risk jumps well beyond your ability without the potential for great personal reward is a waste of human life. When kids are involved, I think this is where selfish / arrogant / ignorance / comes into it. If the jumps are very well planned for, risk managed, trained & prepared, then my opinion softens quite a bit. Its all relative. And its all about your personal opion, morals, beliefs, ethics.

Should you consider your kids when you go jumping? Hell yes. You have chosen to be a part of their lives and to bring them into the world, you should stick around to fulfil the commitment.

But this is just my personal opinion, which may change tomorrow. I don't think it is necessarily right. . . . or wrong. Its just an opinion.

Do what you heart and your mind tells you is right.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

 

Hey Tree,

Congratulations on your child!:) Yes Life has it's suprises and in this case it was a bit of a 180 for me. It's hard for me to say if I corrected it in time. I still am looking for peace there:)

For all the BASE parents who find it in their Soul/spirit to pursue what they believe is the right choice, there is nothing greater than that of which you have chosen to be the essence of who you are and who you celebrate that with:) Foot over edge or not, it was always about exploring your inner being anyhow.

Koolio. Tree, Keep me in the loop if you are heading to TF or the rocks of chocolate for the turkey boogie.

I feel there is a difference between continuing to jump when becoming a parent and starting to jump while being a parent.

On the other subject - the stats: There is 1 fatality every 100,000 skydives or so (USPA) , and 1.7 fatalities every 100,000,000 car-miles (DOT).
So if I got the number right, you have a 1:6000 chance to die in a car accident if you drive 10,000 miles a year, and 1:6000 chance to die if you skydive 17 or so times a year.

Obviously "mileage will vary": 40 years old in a minivan is not the same thing as a 24 year old in a Mustang.

Well said... I agree!

Im a proudly father to 2 kids.Michelle 5 years and sarah 3 years,besides thouse my GF has 2 kids(whith her x husban,Lene and i dont have kids together)Camilla 7 years and Christian 12 years.

None of the above kids can rember me not be a jumper(skydiver),actualy only Christian rember as i didnt BASE jump yet...(just 3 years ago i started).

ALL of them acsept me as the person i am,they know i love them ALL,they also know that i did choose my way of living and it dosnt matter if i die jumping or behind a sewing mashine..
The kids knows that i feel great about jumping,they know i do care about them and they know that i neither wants to get hurt or killed...

Now all you people who DONT have kids BACK OFF,im teiret about this bullshit..

Our way of living is the way we are,you could drive the motorbike aswell as a lifestyle...

My kids(speaking all 4 of them) often ask me to my adventures and about if i could tell a storry(about my adventures).
They love watching me on video while jumping.

IF i stop BASEjumping becourse its "ego" them im not me,however if i stop as i want to walk away,its another case...

True our sport is dangerus and you sometimes need to back off.

but to you who dont have kids but still parents,when did you stop last time thinking,oh what do i do to my parents?Do you think your even better,i know as a fact that i rather die than surviving ANY of my kids.. i guess YOUR mom and dad think the same...

Aslong you play your game as safe as you can,still giving love to thouse you love then they truly will love you and your passion aswell...

sorry my "bable"just teiret about reading from people that your selfish while jumpng and having kids..please get it,aslong you have relatives and freinds its selfish..

less than skydives... you still skydive?

thats pretty much what iread between the lines...