Basejumper.com - archive

I never had to fight my way in.

Of course, I had 450 skydives, read everything I could find on BASE jumping & contacted a local jumper who mentored me. Maybe that had something to do with it...

Thats good, but many times not the case. I had 800 skydives, a riggers ticket, and not many locals keen on mentoring (understandable though, I'm not faulting anyone). Same situation with douggie. We wiggled our way in by jumping together, and I'd just show up on your doorstep when ya'll were heading out... you couldn't just leave a poor girl behind

I'm not supporting the original poster's approach method. But sometimes if you really want something, you have to do it yourself.

Edit to add: By the way, now we have far superior ways to approach BASE. For example, Tom's hospitality in hosting a FJC. If I knew then what I know now, I most certainly would have utilized his services.

Wellll... it's not like you were totally mentor-less. Yes I was personally reluctant to teach because, at the time I didn't feel qualified as a teacher with the low number of BASE jumps that I had. It had nothing to do with you, your readiness or capability. Same with Douggie.

I personally think that teaching someone how to BASE jump is a HUGE responsibility. You are literally taking someone's life in your hands. I could not live with myself had I taken in someone before I felt competent as an instructor. I know I definitely could not have lived with myself if you or Douggie had gotten hurt or worse.

Apparently that attitude no longer exists in the BASE world. Now, if I've hucked myself off something, I'm a BASE jumper and qualified to teach others (no I'm not directing that at you Brit).

Damn Brits, it's too bad you were 1000 miles away from here when you started. Me and Anne would have LOVED to jump with you! Good on you for keeping on with it even against the obstacles...but we're women and are used to dealing with hard-headed mules...oh wait, I think they are commonly known as men. (OK guys, go ahead, the reply to MULE would be NAG!)

Peace everyone, just having some fun...

K

I split this off another thread. That thread diverged into three or four topics of conversation, and I'm trying to clean it up.

This is K763's response, that I am importing manually from the other thread:

I don't necessarily agree with the rule that you must have 150 or 250 skydives to BASE jump; I've seen guys with 60 skydives perform flawlessly off an object, and I've also seen guys with 3000 skydives totally hose themselves off the same object. Each person's abilities are different; some need more time, others need less, but in either case attitude is everything.

This is an interesting statement, and I'm curious how many people feel this way. Certainly I feel that a BASE mentor ought to be a very experienced jumper. Where I differ from the above is that, since I've never met somebody in BASE who wasn't an adult, my feeling is that what you do is, at the end of the day, your choice.

i.e., your BASE mentor is not responsible for your actions. Your life is not "in their hands". This came to feel particularly relevant when there was (recently) an accident out here. There was this long list of people here lining up to tar and feather the mentors / instructors involved and all I can think is, "For God's sake, the guy is 41!"

I feel it is important to own all of my decisions -- both the good ones and the bad ones. Consider this your warning... If I should die BASE jumping, I will personally haunt those who try to steal them posthumously.

Boo!

There are alot of people that disagree with this line of thinking.

Yes we are all adults and the decision is ultimatly ours, but who gets blamed if something goes wrong? The mentor/teacher/instructor... what ever you call him or her. It dosent matter if it was the students fault, You are the instructor!

Absolutely we all make our own decisions. The trick is to make an informed decision.

In the end, yes it is each jumper's choice to go or not go. As a mentor, one of your responsibilities is to teach the student all of the different things to take into consideration on a particular object. My personal feeling is that, as a mentor, the other person is in a somewhat unfamiliar situation and relying upon you (at least to some extent) to properly assess it, take everything into consideration and pass that information on to him or her.

An inexperienced jumper is, by definition, someone who has a limited ability to properly assess a given situation. If I make a poor assessment (or no assessment at all) and someone else relies upon that and gets hurt or killed, then I personally would feel beyond terrible.

So, yes the inexperienced jumper chose to jump, but did he/she choose wisely? That's where the experienced mentor becomes important.

So.....if you had really hit that freestander hard and square, impaled some sharp piece of aparatus through your body and died would it make sense to blame your mentor or whoever taught you?? Or did you make a decision to jump all on your own?!
I totally agree on having a high number of skydives and to throw it out there, all BASE'ers could use some paragliding experience. I also agree that taking a course is a good way to go. Now having said that I didn't take a course. I have gotten in the old fashioned way. I did over 600 skydives, I ran ground crew and took pictures for close to 4 years for alot of BASE jumps! Alot of 3am nights where no jumps happened etc.... I paid my dues but how many are doing that now?? Sure the courses are there, the gear is there but it is getting way too easy to get into some would say..... It is all perspective and perspective is different for everybody.
I suspect that there are some on here that would say I didn't progress in the right order also since 75% of all my jumps are off of "E". I believe that it has been right for me. I have had ample respect and fear for what it is I'm doing but I am now jumping without my mentors around all the time. If I choose to go and nail something technical, something a little beyond my skills and get messed up or killed it will be my fault and NOBODY else's. My mentors will mourn my death but will harbour no guilt because it would not be there fault. I agree with Jason's statement and although there should be some filtering system to keep the ignorant away......once you start jumping it is you and only you that is in control of your fate.
It is this self reliance that I love, the decision process of go or no go. Assessing the site and conditions and the feeling of being all alone even when your not.
I just have to totaly disagree with the statement where you said it's the instructor's fault even if it was the student's.
One more thing, I don't think any of us doing this shit ever stop becoming a student!! How many jumps do you consider to not be a student anymore or to be experienced enough that the teacher doesn't get the blame?
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

PS- I just got denied today off of local 800 foot+ "E" because of winds!! If I had chose to jump...well you know where I stand.
Cheers

I've seen people with all jump numbers hose themselves pretty good off differrent objects so I don't buy that argument.

Take a 1700 foot antenna. Put a person with 60 skydives and 10 BASE jumps, and a person with 3000 skydives and 10 BASE jumps off of it. Assuming the same nice poised exit, after about 3 seconds, do you think the person with 60 skydives or 3000 skydives is going to have a distinct advantage?

Take the same object and the same 2 jumpers and screw up the exit, roll all the way forward and they end up on thier back head toward the Antenna. Which person is most likely to recover from that in the shortest amount of time and get away from the object?

So,Getting into BASE and the "community". There is no way I'd teach someone with out decent skydiving and canopy skills. If you have 1000 jumps and lousy skills, find someone else. If you have 250 jumps and good skills, well, I won't teach you but I'll be happy to bring you along after taking a course such as Toms.

All a person has to do is know someone and be willing to lose an awful lot of sleep. There's a certain amount of confidence that's needed in the person to watch your back and just be be your trusted friend.

Ok, now that mentor thing. If I'm helping bring a person along, I feel obligated to share what I know and help out if it's needed. Tell me this though, If someone takes a course, comes back and jumps with me a few times, then starts jumping on his own, who's responsibility is that? If we both jump the same thing, he hammers in and I don't, is that my responsibility? I don't mean the part about dealing with the aftermath, just his actions.

If one is mentoring, share the best you can and roll the dice, just like they are.

Hey Tim, You are right in what you are saying. if we where all betting on a jump of course we would all take odds on the experiance level. What they are saying is that is not only always the case. They are saying there is sometimes that prodidgy person who is totally tuned in. On the other hand ,you have a high numbered jumper with terrible skills and terrible judgment. I have seen them. Iit's all a state of mind you might say. I wont even go to the mentor thing as it seems like a trick question with to many what if's and circumstances to be aggreed on. But in the end, you and only you can make the final decision and you are responsible." I never read where a mentor pushed you"...

Peace all, Chris

I think the point here that is trying to be made is about teaching the new guys, those that are not ready to jump on their own...

If I made a bad decision on a jump at this point, now that I have been (for months, though I still ask for advice from other jumpers) on my own, Yea it is my fault.

All I am saying is that a person just learning to Base needs a mentor/teacher

With 22 jumps? Don't think thats wise... I have over 70 jumps now (and 70 is not alot) and still seek my mentors advice. I usually have a new question evry jump that we jump together for him or other experianced jumpers. But yes as you say it is ultimatly our own decision wether to jump or not to jump, that is the question.. haha

when are we considdered not newbie anymore?
I have nearly 200jumps ive jumped stuff i didnt thourght were posible to jump.

I still see myself as a newbie and still find Q´s to be answered...

I think no matter how experienced you are you´ll still have some Q´s the differ is that as an really experienced jumper you taught yourself how to get an answer on your Q´s...

We all learn by mistakes,both you and I(Leroy) has jumped at places were we shouldnt be early in our jumping time.. i started by my 3 jump opening an object and do my first sec of freefall teached by my self. at jump #5 i did my sifst total solo(not even a phone whith me).. but as said we all learn by mistakes and its our job to tell the storry so others dont need the pain we have paid(some of us) for stupied mistakes that never should have happened...

I do belive that a Jumper is at his own no matter how new or old he is in BASE however its the more experienced persons job to tell if they see a new guys about to make a mistake...

after all its all about having fun,and injuryes aint fun no matter if your stupid or clever...

I totally agree Faber, it is the "more experienced" persons job to tell the "new guy" his choices might not be for the best no matter how many jumps.

Also, I would like to point out, it is not the most number of jumps made, I think it is more important to have "quality" jumps. Ones where you put a lot of thought and planning into them.

Regardless of what we think, when one of your students is injured, you are likely to feel some personal doubt or guilt. To expect an instructor or mentor to never question themselves, to never ask "couldn't I have done better to prepare the student?" is probably not realistic. Humans cannot just shut off their emotional responses. When you guide someone, no matter how hard you try to make things as safe as possible for them, you still feel some responsibility when they are injured.

I agree that new and old jumpers can and will benefit from the experiences of those around them.

So, was there somewhere in my message that said I don't ask for advice from much more experienced jumpers?? To make it clear...I do. I did not say I am beyond learning, in fact, I said quite the opposite. I said I think we are learning constantly or at least should be.
In your last post you talked about the quality of the jump over the quantity and I would agree. You also said that me personally jumping without my mentors is "not wise". So how did you come to such a conclusion without knowing what my jumping quality/experience is? Without knowing anything about who I have learned from, without knowing about my background, without knowing what crossover type training/experience I have? And last but not least what kinds of jumps I have done without my mentors present. Maybe for you it is right to jump only with your mentors for 50 or 70 jumps but that does not mean it is right for everyone! Do you take issue with the way newbies in OZ learn?!? Jumping cliffs early on, PCA's from sub 200 feet?!?
There are alot of people with alot of varying opinions on what is right or wrong as far as learning. To get everyone to agree %100 will never happen.
My point is, it is a different path and experience for all of us. I have been enjoying the ride very much and the great thing about BASE is the personal journey and experience.

There was a time when the best advice for getting into BASE was standing in the loading area at [enter big DZ here] and whispering, "Psst . . . BASE jump . . . anybody BASE jump . . . Psst . . . ?"

It's better now.

NickD
BASE 194

I can agree with that. I see your point

Thanks for mentioning how one mentor might feel about this. True, everyone is responsible himself about what he is doing and nobody can make you responsible on what someone else is doing, but responsibility is not all.

For me takeing someone with me means more than just showing the skills and knowledge about it. It's also considering the time you spend together learning, the days, weeks, months and even longer.

Finally you end up as very close friends spending much time together.

So I am thinking if something happens to a friend...

Personally, I would never take someone:

- Whos skydivng skills are not perfect
- Who is not a nice person (explanation above, big boobs might help also ;-))
- Who doesn't love beeing outside in nature and respect its laws

love&peace