Basejumper.com - archive

This forum isn’t seeing allot of action today, and I’ve been thinking about a few things lately.
Is it likely skydiving will ever be replaced as the main source of new BASE jumpers, if so than by what sports? I mean technically you could go to a tunnel and get hours of freefall, then take up ground launching for your canopy familiarity. Find a willing instructor (there will always be a few) and there you go. What about paragliding? I realize that PG isn't as popular in the states as it is in the rest of the world, but do you think there will be a higher percentage of new base jumpers coming into the sport with a PG background only? I’ve noticed recently some resistance to accepting those people. Of course they are world class athletes from another sport, but does that matter? Are these people the exception to the rules? I think that they are. I believe that there are certain personalities that are ideal for the base frame of mind. Those people can think quickly and react accordingly without hesitating more naturally than others. But these people may not as of yet be base jumpers. They might be skiers/boarders, motocross riders, or someone that works in a job that requires those same/similar skill sets to stay alive. I believe these people would have a much easier transition than your average skydiver. Like the basic mechanics of anything base movements are just monkey skills done/practiced enough can become second nature, but having the right mind set isn’t easily learned. So will the teaching of non-skydivers ever be accepted? Yes I know these people aren’t looking for acceptance, and I suppose nobody’s path to base is the same. I would guess that the majority have transitioned from skydiving. This to me does seem to be the most logical. Why the reluctance to see another way? What is so threatening about people learning to BASE jump without skydiving first?
Why does this community seem to be so resistant to change? I think in part it has to do with the “good ole boy” type community that’s existed since base began here in the states. New members were screened and invited in, accepted and mentored. Usually friends of friends, so on and so on. This is how it’s always been. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. But things aren't like that anymore. Now days the number of would be jumpers out number the available mentors. Would be jumpers now turn to manufactures and instructors for hire. The "good ole boys" aren't the only people jumping these days and some have refused to fallow there rules. In A community such as this rules only apply if the person subscribes to them. If there are no repercussions for breaking the rules then they will continue to be stepped on.
I think that base jumping is its own entity, owing a good deal of progression to skydiving, but separate none the less. You don’t see paragliding instructors start out students on old skydiving canopies (anymore). They start out on the little hill and progressively move up in level of difficulty. Why not be progressive, and teach students to baSe jump in order of difficulty. That doesn’t mean they could go jump a building right away, that’s foolish there not trained for it.
I can't help but wonder about the future of the sport. I don't think it will ever replace Monday night football and I'm positive there will never be a peewee base jumping league. So you really can't call base mainstream, but it is on its way to something close. It certainly is in the spot light more than ever before. I’m sure to most "old timers" (said standing at attention hand over heart with the utmost respect) it already is, and I agree to an extent. Do you see the popularizing of base as a bad thing? I guess popularizing base means we won’t be part of a select few, and that means where just going to have to get over ourselves, and share the wealth.
I could be missguided but Im sure the more out spoken among us will let me know that shortly.

Oh, one more thing, is there a sport anywhere the French haven’t tried to ruin with there horrible accent and pink florescent tights i.e. climbing, skiing, skydiving, paragliding… .ect, geez is nothing sacred!

These are just a few of the things I was thinking about, lots of observations from a bored newbie.

In my opinion, paragliding teaches a set of skills that BASE jumpers really need (like micrometeorology), but that skydiving doesn't use.

On the other hand, CRW teaches a set of skills (close quarters canopy maneuvers) that are hard to get elsewhere.

I wonder if the future isn't folks who decide to get into BASE from the beginning, and then go do a "training program" that includes specific preparation in CRW, paragliding, tracking, and some other stuff.

Wouldn't it be revolutionary if the source of BASE jumpers was BASE jumpers--instead of them coming from some other sport, they just started out here, doing a training regimen?

Well you've managed to say what I ment in way less the a third of my previous post!

I started skydiving with the intent to BASE, and I'm trying to focus my training and education on skills that will be needed once I am ready for BASE.

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Mike

Not really revolutionary as people have done it before. It would only be revolutionary if done on a massive / regular scale and in a controlled manner. Kind of like the introduction of AFF.

I think it all revolves around risk management.

I think the problem is that people thing the first step in this progression could be "go jump off a bridge." I think the first steps are all pre-BASE, and ought to involve developing transferable skills in other areas. Unfortunately, everyone seems to be in such a hurry to be a BASE jumper that they neglect the development of those skills.

Even more rare is someone who steps back and tries to develop them once they are already jumping off cliffs and buildings. The mentality is often "hey, I lived through a building jump, I don't need to learn anything else, I'm already an expert."

I guess it’s not accurate to say you'd be teaching them how to BASE jump, but that you'd be teaching them how to jump from a bridge. Jumping from anything else (BA/E) would require more training.
It only makes sense to prepare for something if you’re able. I hate to compare the two after I’ve worked so hard to separate them, but by that same logic, students starting the AFF program should go to the tunnel. That’s not feasible for some or economical for most. There are so many skills you could use toward base that if you even partially exposed yourself to each you might never get to jump. Besides does a skydiver with 500 freefly/swoop jumps really bring that much to the BASE table?
I do agree that every BASE jumper should be sharpening the skills he has and learning the ones he doesn’t have.

The question then is really:

"What is the best progression for teaching BASE?"

And further;

"What is the best first step in this progression?"

And;

"Is a better first step to jump from a bridge, or to go paragliding, or to go skydiving, or what?"

Personally, I think that skydiving is a better first step than bridge jumping. Honestly, I think that paragliding is also a better first step than bridge jumping.

The point is that I think you ought to do the first step first, and I don't, at this point, think that a span jump is the appropriate first step.

I think this is a very interesting discussion. Can anyone (seriously, I'm interested) give me an argument as to why a span jump is a better first step in BASE training than a skydive, or a paraglider flight?

Because to some, the minute you jump from the bridge, you are a base-jumper.

A key thing that I don't see mentioned enough on this forum, is that the range of skills necessary for different types of jumps is unlike in any other sport.

It's one thing to jump of the bridge, and in my opinion not a very hard thing if you know how to pack. I mean, it's dangerous and all, but even without any skydiving or paragliding experience, the chances of survival are very big.

It's a whole other thing to do a gainer from a 200ft underhung cliff, or to fly a wingsuit off a terminal wall with a ledge you need to clear 300ft below you.

If becoming a base-jumper is the goal, then jumping from the bridge is the quickest way to get there; but only for some shallow definition of base-jumper.

I don't see much problems with people jumping from the potato bridge early in their career. But only as long as we realize that this does not necessarily prepare us for other types of jumps, and that we need practice in other environments (skydive, paragliding, climbing, diving-boards, gymnastics, etcetera) every time we consider adding a new element to our jumps.

Even more importantly, students (like myself) need to be taught to withstand the lure of the perfect packjob. Dexterbase wrote about this rather eloquently in a recent post, and it hit home hard.

I say; jump the bridge early in your career. Go huck it (under guidance of a mentor) and have fun. Try not to buy or borrow gear though. It'll lead to the dark side of the force.

Cheers,

Jaap

Each time I've seen a whuffo chucked from a bridge it's always been followed by "gees... guess we won't be doing THAT again anytime soon..."

If mass-training is what's being put forward here then let's not forget the calibre of student that sometimes fronts up for AFF training - and the amazing (scary) antics that they are capable of coming up with sometimes - perplexing even the best AFF instructor. (up goes the fatality rate!)

PG or Skydiving are the best sports to learn canopy control.

Skydiving is the only precursor that I can think of for tracking.

What about progressing to wingsuit??

I just can't think of any substitute than what we already have.

g.

Whatever the precursor is, it must impart air sense, and nothing besides skydiving does that, so far . .

NickD
BASE 194

Skydiving will always be the primary first step in learning to BASE I think. That being said, take this with a grain of salt because I have yet to make my first BASE. I don't see how skydiving helps at all when flicking a 200ft bridge, outside of knowing how to fly and land a ram air canopy. Accuracy is a big issue I know, but jumping a fully eliptical canopy loaded down is a whole different ballgame than a large BASE canopy. Is there something I am missing?

Aside from teaching you about gear, it'll also help in developing reflexes and the right spirit as described by TVPB in this post.

I'm still looking forward to my first skydiving malfunction. The one that I survive, that is.

At least quote the whole sentence next time. Skydiving gear and BASE gear have similarities but there are also big differences. Besides, that is something that can be taught on the ground. A PCA off of a 200ft bridge is, step off, pop your toggles, turn to landing area, land. The packing is probably the hardest thing to learn for that. Anyone with an A license could probably steer the canopy to the landing area and land it if properly instructed how to do so. If you had a mal or offheading that would have to be dealt with as well, but once again that is something taught on the ground that you are not going to experience until you are on a BASE jump.

Sorry about that.


A line-over from a 200ft bridge can turn really ugly. Landing a bowtie on hard ground is not recommended, and on a 200ft PCA you don't have a lot of time to pop and throw away your toggles, wait for your canopy to un-bowtie, turn (if necessary) and flare.

In general, somebody that has been skydiving is going to deal with it better than somebody who has been watching television all his life.

Simply amazing that someone with 50 jumps (already swooping a Stiletto) is so proficient in their knowledge and experience that they can trivialize canopy control over packing some nylon into a container. I'm really looking forward to what else you can teach us about BASE jumping.

I am not so sure how much skydiving improved my reflexes. Unless someone is having a lot of mals in which they need to deal with them quickly or opening up in a cloud of canopies there is nothing that needs quick reflexes like is required to deal with a 180. Actually you don't need to do a anything for a couple of minutes if you open high enough. I've only had two openings facing the object and luckily both were on antennas with a little tail wind. Skydiving itself would do nothing for those cases as there is nothing in skydiving in which you need to deal with that type of situation and facing an object is my biggest fear in BASE. But as I don't skydive very much my opinion may be a bit biased. Now those crewdogs on the other hand...

Pat

You said

"Oh, one more thing, is there a sport anywhere the French haven’t tried to ruin with there horrible accent and pink florescent tights i.e. climbing, skiing, skydiving, paragliding… .ect, geez is nothing sacred!"

Maybe there are just as many people in Europe who might have issues with self conceited, loud, demanding, poorly travelled and one eyed Americans?

Now don't get me wrong as I love all Gods children, and have many good American friends (&French). So lighten up tiger....

Not true. Granted if this does happen when the people skydiving did a piss poor job of tracking away from each other, but having to evade another canopy on a collison course immediately after opening is similar to having an off heading opening in BASE.

Hey I'm still learning all about BASE jumping and have only started to scratch the surface. I personally feel that my currency in skydiving hasn't hurt my canopy control in BASE jumping and I do believe that my BASE jumping has brought some added awareness to my skydiving.

There are plenty of BASE jumpers out there who are not interested in skydiving and that's fine. We're all different and BASE jumping means different things to each and every one of us. The important thing is to not trivialize what we are doing. We can die in both sports if we do stupid things. And once again I think both sports complement each other. I like the fact that I jump a canopy which is in the 300 square foot size range and at the same time jump a canopy that is 100 square feet. How can that not be a good thing when it comes to learning how to control your canopies? But that's just me. To each their own.

Isn't this exactly how Shane McConkey explains how to jump in "Radix"?

"You can sit in this backpack system pretty easily, no problem."

"And then you steer the tarp with these jonkels, and when you get close to the ground you schlare."

Neil buddy, pal, chum.
Ok, maybe a little harsh. Your obviously a fan of florescent pink tights. You have to at least agree they smell funny. Now don't get your panties in a bunch. I was only joshing.


People in Europe.....wow i never thought about what they might think....but then again who cares!

Hey, I've got both eyes!


Its alittle early in the relationship to have pet names for one another.

Skydiving is a great sport and I think it takes some crazy skills to do what some of you guys do and things can go wrong very fast while skydiving as well. Especially with some of the packjobs and tiny canopies I have seen ;)

Skydiving training dedicated towards BASE is an invaluable tool any BASEr could use. But just jumping out of a plane does almost nothing to prepare you for what will be encountered. Most skydivers don't get on their risers the instant they are above their head. Actually my first few jumps through AFF I would instantly grab the risers and one of my instructors convinced me it wasn't necessary.

Evading a canopy flying at you is a lot different than getting yourself turned around from a wall but you do need to react quickly. The thing is though the reaction is usually going to be different. When I am facing something solid I have drilled into my head to grab my risers and stall out the canopy then release one to get it turned around as quick as possible. It eats up a lot of altitude though. If I was facing a canopy I would correct to the point I wouldn't hit them (45 degrees tops especially if they are doing the same)

My point is that you need to develop reflexes specific to the sport and unless you are doing drills for them skydiving doesn't help.

Pat

French and Americans are all good. But those damn Kiwis with their sheep...

I totally agree with what you say about BASE training in the skydiving environment and am also on the same page with you in that a BASE off-heading is different than a skydiving canopy avoidance maneuver. But they do require similar reactions. And yes, while some of us will try and convert a few more skydivers into flying their rear risers, many many skydivers know little about canopy control. But we do differ in that I still fell that skydive currency can't hurt your BASE jumping.

wrong way to do it.. freefall it... i would...

What could posibly go wrong...

yeah bring your stilletto

Wow, way to take that out of context. I love the fact that because I have my skydives listed as 50 everyone jumps down my throat on that comment. I was not saying that it is trivial. It definitely takes skill, just not as much as you would like to believe.

If you had a mal or offheading, wouldn't it be better to learn to deal with that at a higher altitude, rather than just "on the ground"?

Ground training to 200' bridge is skipping several very important steps. One of those steps is learning to deal with problems, and that learning ought to be done, and practiced, in the air, with spare altitude, then at gradually decreasing altitudes.

Theory is all well and good. But that's all your going to get on the ground. Real life practice is the thing that's going to stand you in good stead in your time of need. Skipping the practice and going straight from the ground school theory to the firing line is foolish.

I fully agree. As I stated earlier I think you should have at least some skydiving background and that I think that will always be the primary sport that leads to BASE.

I was more thinking of practice in the BASE environment. I'd definitely recommend practicing your emergency procedures (like object avoidance) off something higher before having to do it off something that's only 200' high.

------Skydiving is the only precursor that I can think of for tracking.------

HA HA HA HA (evil laugh)

that ones just for me... dont ask...

Me too :)

did i comment your 50 skydive thing? actualy i thourght it were BASE jumps your profile said...

winning the lothery dont take skills either,i think jumping off a 200ft S whith no prior experience your roling the dice and you should be happy to walk away whith out a injury...

just my thourght...