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I need some advice . . .

In November of 1980 Ken Sawyers died attempting a BASE jump from the St. Louis Gateway Arch and I'm wondering if he should be included in the BASE Fatality List. I bring it up as I've been talking to someone who knew him, and they asked why he wasn't. When you read the story below you'll see why I didn't initially include him, but now I'm thinking I should. I'd like your opinions please . . .

The ARCH
1991, The Fixed Object Journal

When he heard that a skydiver had gone in trying to land on the top of the Gateway Arch, John Louis called his friend Ken Swyers to find out who the numb nut was. If anyone knew it would be Ken, he was the USPA Area Safety Officer and was in touch with all the "fringe" jumpers. After what seemed like a long time Ken's 15-year old son answered the phone. "No, they aren't here, they went somewhere early this morning."

Ken Swyers was 33-years old when he died and it stunned the local parachuting community. He once jumpmastered a female student who died (not his fault) and it effected him greatly. After that he gained a reputation for being tough on jumpers he considered reckless.

What the World Trade Center Towers mean to jumpers in New York is what the Gateway Arch means to jumpers in St. Louis, a colossal dare to the imagination. Since its construction 20-years ago, the 638-foot high stainless steel structure is the center of focus in the city. You cannot escape the Arch, it surrounds and engulfs you. A jacket sold at Archway, the local DZ, comes with a patch that shows a jumper in freefall between the legs of the Arch.

Although Arch jumping was always a topic of conversation to locals, the problem remained how to get up there. An elevator carried tourists to the top, but only on the inside, with no way outside. Ken pondered the problem for some time before hitting upon the idea of attacking the Arch from above.

His plan became landing one parachute on the top of the Arch, and then jumping off with another. Jumping the Arch became Ken's Holy Grail and he was consumed by the mission. His wife, Millie, remembers Ken talking about an Arch jump as early as 1974. They used to spend time early in their relationship sitting in the warm sun with their backs against the massive legs of the structure.

The year 1980 was a time of great controversy between BASE jumpers and skydivers. Contempt for what USPA was calling "That's Incredible Fever" (a reference to an old TV show the likes of Real TV) was plentiful. The owner of the Archway DZ said, "I have over four thousand jumps and I still find that thrilling. I can't understand why people would look for fixed objects to jump from."

Ken tended to line up with skydivers on the issue. He showed disdain for people who did fixed object jumps, especially with the cameras rolling. Yet, Millie recalls, how excited her husband became after seeing a TV program that featured BASE jumping. At some point in early 1980 Ken's talk of an Arch jump started to sound less like dreaming and more like planning. He did recons of the grounds surrounding the Arch and he spent long hours sketching the terrain and planning his getaway.

With the help of some friends, Ken assembled a team for his assault on the Arch. One friend was to retrieve Ken's main canopy when he threw it from the top. Two others would film and take still photographs. Millie would drive the getaway car.

In the fall Ken made his first attempt. The winds were strong and the turbulence surrounding the top of the Arch caused Ken to abort his approach. He landed next to the base of the structure and sped away. His jump was only seen by a few people and except for an airborne traffic reporter who reported seeing a parachute, no one took much notice.

It wasn't until late November that he tried it again. Debate among the team on how best to approach the Arch is ongoing. They were telling him the best way is from across the 17-foot wide structure. That way, if he couldn't get purchase on the slick surface, he could just keep on going off the other side before his canopy fully deflated. Ken, however, wanted to approach the Arch spanwise. He thought this would significantly improve his chances of landing on the top. The team argued the danger of falling down one of the legs if he landed long or short. The team's plan made surviving more likely if anything went wrong, Ken's plan improved the odds for success. Ken won out.

The next problem was what should he do once he landed on the Arch. And this is where the plan starting coming apart. He seemed more concerned with what to do with his cutaway main, which was a gift from Millie, than how he was going to accomplish the second part of the jump. He decided to carefully roll up the main and drop it to a team member below. He would then just step off the top of the Arch and immediately pull his reserve handle.

The morning of November 22, 1980 was calm and clear. Ken rose early and gathered his team. A pilot was lined up to fly Ken over the Arch and they departed a small out of the way airport to avoid detection. By the time the A/C approached the Arch the winds had picked up somewhat. The team on the ground held their breath as Ken exited the plane.

They watched as Ken approached the top of the Arch and then lost sight of him and they waited. "Where was he," they wondered, "what happened?" Soon they all heard an eerie, drawn out metallic sound followed by a loud thud at the base of the Arch. The sounded reverberated back up the legs of the Arch and then all went quiet.

The silence was finally broken by screams and the pounding of feet running for the bottom of the north leg. Millie knew, without seeing, what happened. She walked the last 100 yards to her husband's body slowly. She brushed aside the few who tried to hold her back and knelled by her husband. The main canopy she bought him was still attached to his harness. She whispered something in his ear and covered him with a jacket. He lay just yards from where the couple used to sit years ago.

A witness, who remarkably turned out to be a skydiver, was coming out of her apartment, looked up at the plane and saw Ken jump. She said he landed part way down the north leg of the Arch, an area that is still relatively flat. She said his main started to deflate, but then it looked like a gust of wind caught it. The canopy pulled Ken off his feet and onto his back before he started a headfirst slide down the leg. At that point Ken pulled the reserve ripcord, but the canopy just trailed behind, and never inflated.

What surprised other jumpers so much is how poorly planned the whole thing was. He never attempted to get any blueprints of the Arch, which might have alerted him to the large air vents located on top that may had added to his troubles. He wore old tennis shoes that wouldn't give him much grip on the metal surface, and the structure was still wet from the morning dew.

Millie is sure from the moment he landed on the Arch Ken knew it was his last jump. She figures Ken had only two seconds to realize it was all going wrong before he started to slide. A battered as he was, Millie says, his face in death wasn't of a horrified person. He looked calm and relaxed. He even had that slight smile only someone close to him would recognize. "It was the kind of smile he'd get when he just put something over, done something ornery, and was waiting for everyone else to get the joke.

At the end of 1980 local news was calling the Arch jump one of the top stories of the year. Meanwhile on the wall at the Archway DZ, up on the wall, in black felt pen, it says," Ken Swyers, RIP, First Man to Stand on Top of the Gateway Arch.

-----------------------------------

So that's the dilemma. I think Ken deserves to be remembered, but I hate to raise the fatality number, for what isn't clearly a BASE jump. This story has a lot in common with the fellow who went over Niagara Falls planning to use a rocket deployed canopy to save himself, but that was probably more of a BASE jump than this was and he's not on the List. (However if I add Ken, I probably add him too.)

So what do you think, should Ken be on the List? He had no previous BASE experience from what I can find out. If you believe he should be added, then where, top section or bottom?

NickD
BASE 194

He was attempting a BASE jump. I think he deserves to be put on the list. Even though the skydive is actually what killed him it was only the means to an end - the BASE jump.

I second

Wow, bummer.
With all due respect for Ken and his family,
Ken was not a BASE jumper.
Ken never did make a BASE jump.
There is no category on "The List" for wanna-be's.

Hello Nick...

In my opinion, Yes, most definitely…

To me, a BASE jump is the whole journey around the jump and not just the freefall & canopy flight off the object I’m pursuing. If the only reason I BASE'd jumped was for the freefall or the canopy flight, it wouldn't be worth the risk to me. But the journey, and the people on the journey with me, are what makes BASE jumping worth the risk to me...

But now that I think of it… Technically… He did freefall from the object… And he did deploy a reserve on that jump… He just didn’t survive his BASE jump… But by all means, he did do a BASE jump… So in my eyes, I do see it as a BASE jump…

…

not a BASE jump. It was a skydive. He never released his main, right?
Keep him off the list, he got out of a plane.
pope

I second this. He didn't die doing a BASE jump, he died leading up to one.

I agree with Avery he never made a base jump.
On the other point the guy who attempted to jump Niagara Falls died on a base jump. He wore a single parachute rig and deployed, he didn't know what he was doing, had never made a base jump before, although had made a few skydives. His choice of equipment, and failure to execute the jump properly is what ended up killing him. Had he survived it would have been a base jump. I had that same jump planned out long before he did it, just couldn't get sponsors to give me the jetski. The fine is also set at $10,000.

Wow... I always find it funny how anal people get about "What Is" or "What Is NOT" a BASE jump.

Yes he did exit an airplane on the way to his BASE jump. I’m sure you have used multiple means of transportation on the way to many of your BASE jumps, including an airplane. Should you remove those jumps from your log book? No, because you were on your way to those BASE jumps.

And as far as whether or not he cutaway his main… Plenty of people jump on Bridge day with converted rigs… Not to mention, if I started BASE jumping with a Sorcerer, that has two canopies, am I not BASE jumping? Of course I’m BASE jumping…

So again… Technically… He flew in an airplane to his BASE object… He landed on the BASE object… He exited the BASE object, not in the manner as planned… He went into freefall… And finally but not least, he deployed a parachute, in fact two (with one being a reserve)…

Now I would understand the debate if we were asking this question about someone who hit the side of a barn during a skydive, but we're not… He died falling from the top of the BASE object that he intended to BASE jump from and did successfully deploy his reserve. In my book, that qualifies as a BASE jump...

Damn since we’re getting all technical about it… I’m going to go jump off my bed a couple hundred times tonight with my rig on and throw out my pilotchute… I'll log them as “pilotchute in tow”/”Other” BASE jumps…

...

Michael

It's all fun and games till you tweak your ankle....

Wow... Think of this... I could even put mats down on my bedroom floor and do aerials from my bed ... And when I'm feeling risky, I'll remove the mats ...

next try it with out a rig... hell you wont even need a wingsuit.. unless you really wana land it and shut everone up

Now your thinking... Now your thinking... I like the way you think ....

btw... (off topic) I am thinking about selling my S3 and getting a V1... I saw one in person today... DAMN I am impressed!.. Maybe I will keep the S3, but I would love to demo it and a SG...

Serious though, why not have a memorial or tribute part to the webpage?

Well, so far that's four for putting him on the List and four for keeping him off . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I say no.... There is at least one on the Bottom list that were climbing to an exit point that didn't make the top of the list.

Why not put him on the "jumpers outside the sport" section? I see some strong parallels with at least one other person who is in that section (jumping from a plane, intending a challenging stunt, not really a BASE jump, you get the idea).

Nope.

The kid that goes in after slipping over the edge with his rig in a bag during the approach isn't going to make the list either.

Dwain wasn't planning on landing his wing suit on the bridge and then jumping again...

Did he have his rig on? No...

But granted... Give the guy some credit, he was on a BASE jump...

So, I have to ask... Since we're all wrapped around the freefall technicality part, what about this exaple... So you do a BASE jump and die from sudden impact, because you didn't deploy your parachute. Did you die BASE jumping or did you die after you BASE jumped??? If in that scenerio you in fact did die BASE jumping, why can you only die after a BASE jump, and have it count, but not before a BASE jump???

Furthermore... Is BASE jumping strickly the action of freefalling from a fixed object? Meaning Freefall and flying your parachute?

Damn I hope not... Because if so, I have been doing it all wrong... I thought the action of BASE jumping was simply a small, very small, portion of the big picture of what BASE represents...

If BASE jumping is simply the action of freefalling and canopy flight, I totally got into BASE for the wrong reasons... I got into BASE for what it encapsulates and not simply the freefall... Cause damn, I definitely get more freefall when skydiving...

Now it's five for and five against . . .

When the Perris Twin Otter (PV21) crashed on take off we has this same discussion. Some where saying those 16 people died skydiving and some said it had nothing to do with skydiving; they were just flying in a plane.

In my mind at the time I remember thinking if those 16 people didn't wake up that morning and decide to go skydiving they'd still be alive. But, then if someone dies in auto accident on the way to the DZ . . .

I was sort of hoping for a consensus one way or the other, but it's looking like a split decision. There's a logics lesson in this somewhere, but there's never a Vulcan around when you need one . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Hmm...See now I'd say they died skydiving because the plane ride up is a part of the skydive.

>>Why not put him on the "jumpers outside the sport" section? I see some strong parallels with at least one other person who is in that section<<

Everyone on the bottom section of the List had made at least some previous BASE jumps. As far as I know Ken never BASE jumped.

Someone mentioned that Ken did jump from the top of structure, although it was unintentional, and tried to deploy a canopy. But, that begs the question does a BASE jump need to be intentional . . . ?

NickD
BASE 194

He screwed up the landing part of his skydive, never made it to the BASE part of his adventure. Some aussie did a similar stunt in Sydney (successfully).

I vote no.

Vote = No

With much respect to Ken's family, I also vote no.

It was a close call to being on the list, because he pulled his reserve as he was sliding down. However, his death was associated with the exiting from an airplane and not completing a landing on the top of the arch.

However, he definately deserves to be on the list outside of the sport in the same light as my friend Neil Queminet.

Meeker

I think he should go on the bottom list. He died trying his best to BASE jump although he never completed one. I had a crazy buddy that did a "Reserve BASE" jump. It's still a BASE jump even if he slipped on exit or fell off while getting out to the exit. Do you need to die starting on your second BASE jump to be considered for the lists. If falling off a fixed object with the intention of doing a BASE jump isn't a BASE jump then we need to start defining things again. Bottom line is he died in pursuit of a BASE jump. He should be recognized on the list. Plus it shows another link to USPA supporting BASE before the bandwagon had wheels.

 

Another thought:

I think he ought to be on the list (probably the bottom section) somewhere as a cautionary tale. I know of at least 3 other loads done in a similar fashion (skydive to the top, then repack and jump the object). Having his story somewhere on the list acts as a good heads up to people planning such a load, so that they have a better idea of potential dangers.

you mean crash on the way DOWN?

Okay, so far, including one PM, it's six for and nine against.

Good point about the cautionary nature of Ken's story, Tom. After all, that a big part of what the List is all about . . .

NickD
BASE 194

i dont agree

I would have to say NOT. The people on the bottom part of the list are BASE jumpers who died doing something othr than. The people on the first part of the list died BASE jumping.

Ken died trying to achieve an exit point and had never BASE jumped previously... If you put him in the top part then Neil should be in the top part. The bottom portion seems to be in rememberance of BASE jumpers, not things to avoid while riding a MC or flying an airplane.

.
. No
.

With all due respect to his family and his memory...

No

Six for, thirteen against . . .

NickD
BASE 194

He was not a BASE jumper yet.

If a for example a Formula-One Driver was on the line to start
then the Flag goes down to start and then his Engine Blows.
He never finished one Lap..... but he still gets a ..
DNF... (did not finish)... because he was a Driver.

You Must be a.. BASE Jumper ..to get a ...DNF.
.

No to the top list. Never attempted, was preparing. Possibly yes to the bottom list, if it clearly states, "Perished while PREPARING for his first BASE." or something to that effect.

While I am an outsider to this, I kind of feel that those on the list would welcome him, being his intentions and all.

>>While I am an outsider to this, I kind of feel that those on the list would welcome him, being his intentions and all.<<

The fellow I buy beer from is an outsider. Your opinion counts, Brother, and maybe even more than most as there isn't a lot of baggage attached . . .

NickD
BASE 194

having been through St L. quite often i'm always in awe of the arch... thanks for the info.. something else to remember next time i pass by...but i second Tom's suggestion... definitely worth remembering, but his actual fatality had very little to do with BASE..

my vote No.

would you include him if he were simply planning to land on and slide down? does someone who dies on a climb up to a BASE exit count? how about a car wreck in route to an A?

just my .02..

>>I would have to say NOT. The people on the bottom part of the list are BASE jumpers who died doing something other than. The people on the first part of the list died BASE jumping. Ken died trying to achieve an exit point and had never BASE jumped previously... If you put him in the top part then Neil should be in the top part. The bottom portion seems to be in rememberance of BASE jumpers, not things to avoid while riding a MC or flying an airplane. <<

Gee, that pretty well nails it . . .

NickD
BASE 194

However, the below is also a good point . . .

>>Do you need to die starting on your second BASE jump to be considered for the lists.<<

NickD
BASE 194

Nick,

The last sentence on your webpage...

"The BASE Fatality List is then up-dated and re-published mainly so newer jumpers wouldn't keep making the same mistakes over and over."

Nick Di Giovanni
BASE 194

This is easily something that can and probably will happen again (IMO = skydive fatality to a BASE jump) so it should be somewhere. Where is not nearly as important as it being somewhere where jumpers will see it. As a skydiver interested in BASE, I’ve visited the site several times to remind myself of the risks involved in what you guys do. Thanks for keeping up the site.

AB

Disclaimer : I too am not a base jumper, just on the other side of the fence wanting in. I review the list frequently as I ponder the cost and contemplate the rewards.

As I read the story, it does have a lesson. But I feel it is similiar to the lesson learned from those who slip on the way to the exit on any mountain or antanae with rig in stash bag. This seems, with all respect to those who were close to him, as a hopeful base jumper who made a mistake on the way to his first base jump exit point. Not during the commission of his first jump.

However, while he was not a base jumper, he might be one of those individuals who at least pioneered the idea. Maybe that should earn him a place on the "other portion."

I reserve my vote as I believe that should be a BASE jumpers perogative. Just my humble opinion.

J
(edited to add "other portion sentence"

Nick~

Wow...talk about a cold fucking chill!

I knew Ken and Millie, and the other people not named but in the story.

I worked as an Instructor at Archway at the time.

What I remember:

Ken did use to speak with discust about the stunts jumpers were doing to get on"Real Incredible Stupid People" as he called it.
He said if he ever did anything note worthy he would film it but for personal use not for commerical sale...
I don't know if I believed him then, or now. He was a quiet guy that didn't give away what he was thinking easily. His best friend didn't know about the jump or he would have shot him in the leg to prevent it.

We kind of knew something was up because in the weeks prior to the jump Ken had done some intentional cutaways, timing the distance it took his reserve to open.

On the morning it happened, I was opening the hangar doors when the airport manager came running over demanding to know who had just been flying the jump plane. I told him no one had as we were just getting going for the day. "That's BULLSHIT, you know it and I know it" he yelled at me and stomped over to feel the engines on both 182's. "These airplanes are grounded and nobody leaves until you hear from me."
About 2 minutes later the phone rang and we knew.

Now to clairfy a point, if it makes any difference in your final decision to add Ken.

The 'skydiver' that witnessed it...

was a young woman going through the static line
progression. She'd made three S/L jumps prior to that day, but had come to the DZ a dozen times shot down because of wind holds.
I was her Instructor...and was "seeing" her as well.

Mid day we were going about the DZ business, having put the airport managers concers to rest.
The lady in question showed up some what upset and wanting to talk. I took her away from the airport to get lunch, and to avoid the reporters hanging around. What she told me she saw from her balcony
across the street from the Arch was that Ken had set up into the wind flying North to South. He may have flared a bit high because she said he seemed to just hang there a second or two before touching down at about the 11 Oclock position or just short of it on the North leg. He landed kind of on all fours and scampered forward another 10-15 feet at which time he was standing upright. He then reached back and grabbed his lines in one hand...and as we all do gave the canopy a quick shake to get it straight.
It was then the wind caught the canopy and partially inflated it pulling him off his feet and begining the slide. She said he was fighting to get to the side but in her words..."He was clawing away but it just kept getting wider" She didn't think he'd pulled his reserve until well into the slide when it became apparent he couldn't get over the edge.

She tried to make a jump that day...I was holding the static line. She emotionally lost it on the step and that's the only time I ever pulled a student back it.

Another point...
the Arch isn't 17 feet across, it's 33.
Where the 17 feet number comes from is that's
1/2 the distance across. Before this happened, we all would talk about how it could be done during safety meetings. We figured a good accuri jumper could set up...East to West as mentioned in the article, shooting for the rotating light at top dead center. If you were short you could butt slide into the light and do a carrier trap..if you were long you only had 17 feet (or less) to run to the edge and stay with the main.

From what I understand that was actually Kens plan.
But aborted at least one..possibly two attempts because to do that a West to East wind is needed,
We'd heard that the wind rolling off the appartments
across from the Arch made that approach difficult.

That day...the wind was on line for a length wise attempt.



Okay...on a personal note:

I've jumped at the Arch several times doing Demos.
Flew through it even, when there is any wind at all around that thing..it's a rodeo! I can only imagine what the vortices were like for Kenny that day.

Nick we've known each other for 20+ years and though I have a few fixed object jumps I'm no BASE jumper. But in my humble opnion Ken should be included on the list because the bottom line is he died from injuries of impact, sustained during an attempted BASE jump.

Yes he used an aircraft to get there...
like Angel Falls.

Yes his main canopy was still attached...
In fact that was one of the options we discussed
during the safety meetings, land..lay it out nose up...and run off. Kind of a 80's BASE version of solo direct bag deployment.
Not what he intended perhaps but still...

From the way it was told to me by the only person that saw the whole thing begining to end...
For those few moments before the wind caught his main, Kenny Swyers was indeed

"The First man to STAND ALONE on the top of the Gate Way Arch"

(Danny Cunningham wrote that on the wall the night of the furenal)

The attached PIC is of the patch mentioned in the article...
My FIRST day working at the DZ...Ken went up in the AC to watch me put out a student...to give me the "NOD"
Once the student was launched, I said to Ken~ "How about a buck on the disk?"
We jumped..I won...he gave me this patch instead of a buck..."Here, let Verner pay ya!" he said.




In closing Nick~
The FIRST line of your inital post reads:

>In November of 1980 Ken Sawyers died attempting a BASE jump from the St. Louis Gateway Arch<

So is there really any question?
That's who is on the list...those who died attempting a BASE jump!


~Jim

Looking for a moment at the BASE portion of this jump - it doesn't really fit in with what I'd consider "modern" BASE jumping to be. Whilst "The List" isn't really to be used as a useful statistic there's many ppl, especially the media, that use it in this way. Having this jump (stunt) on the top part of the list would only increase the number and make the "statistic" less pertainent to modern BASE and the type of jumping that most ppl on the list were undertaking when they died.

In other words - it'd make the list less valuable as a reflection of modern BASE jumping statistics.

So I vote NO.

g.

"He was standing alone 630 feet atop a man made object...he had a working parachute harness on"

If he still had the main attatched, was he in a position to jump? I know its nit picking and I do agree with your point. He did, if momentarily, stand at the exit point with every intention of jumping. Wind had other plans.

Again, not my forum. Just interested in the debate. I do believe the lesson and the attempt need recognition.

J

Reading this thread I found many valid arguments supporting both sides of the issue. The fact that he exited an airplane pretty much convinced me that this was a skydive...then I started thinking about Ken Swyers intentions.

One of the definitions of intent is the state of ones mind at the time one carries out an action.

Since it was Ken's intent to BASE off the Arch, I would say it was indeed a BASE jump, albeit a failed one and should be included.

You know we joke that the most dangerous part of the skydive is the ride to altitude; perhaps the same can be said about accessing the exit point on a BASE jump. Just something else for me to think about.

Wow Jimbo,

Sitting here thinking where I could get more on this episode, and their you are right under my nose . . .

How's this idea?

I'll create a third section on the List for Ken and Robert Overacker. (In 1995 Robert rode over Horseshoe Falls on a jet ski. He attempted to deploy a rocket propelled parachute, but something went wrong.) Is that acceptable to everyone that thinks I shouldn't put them on the List at all?

We could call it . . . what?

NickD
BASE 194

The "Not sure what that was all about" list.

I am for him being on the List.

I agree.. make a 3rd section. It would make us that want him on the list happy... it would also be OK with the "hardliners"... Hell, you are keeping up the list... do with it what YOU want. YOU are doing this for all of us.



I quote the following from an anonymous source,
Nick, we appreciate what you do with the list. I am for what ever you do!

What if someone went in doing a rollover, or tard? They would have an open parachute ON the exit point, intending to jump. Would that be a BASE fatality? I would say yea. I am leaning FOR Ken to be put on the list.

nic

Nick, if you are opposed to:
"Stupid Human Tricks That Got Someone Killed",
then how about:
"Other Bummers Involving Parachutes (Or NOT),
That Are Bound To Upset Jason Bell And The Victim's Family".

We could call it . . . what?

My personal favorite:

On the earlier discussion, I don't think you should be too concerned about letting logic rule in placing people on the list. If you do, you'll be compelled to put me on it when I die, and five jumps or not, I'm not a BASE jumper.

I'm glad you decided for putting Swyers on the list, though. It defies strict logic, but it feels right.

rl

I would ask what you consider the early plane, object, ground jumps and think where you would place these people if the unfortunate occured. Some of these people if I am not mistaken are considered base jumpers even if they did not continue doing more fixed objects. Mind you BASE is all four object types so does the person need a base number.

I personally would consider someone who you know is obviously worthy of the bottom list, and then place them in the same shoes as this jump and ask yourself where it would be placed. It sounds like this is his first attempt at a fixed object, but it would be weird if you make a new list for him and then someone attempts a similar thing but because they are well known you then place them on the top list.

I do agree with Tom that this list has a large number of very important lessons and it would be benifital to add him somewhere on your list (top bottom or new). It appears he did alot of research, so I am guessing if someone was in a similar boat today, hopefully they will find reference to this incident and learn from it.

I personally think that it should be something along the lines of "Accidents jumping from fixed objects (non base)" would be the general gist of the title I would use.

Well, I think he should be on the list somewhere, but then I;ve always thought Overacker should be on it somewhere, too.

intent was there.So yes.

I remember hearing about it, and reading about it.

At the time, the definition of BASE was still pretty fluid. Yes, I think Carl Boenish had already come up with the acronym, but skydivers taking their sport rigs and going to find a building or antenna or bridge for a weekend's diversion was pretty much how it happened.

Had it worked it would have been a BASE jump.

Wendy W.

jumping out of a plane is a skydive.. that simple..

Hi Nick-

After reading the story I feel that if it does make The List, it should be on the bottom section since it was a skydive.

If he never was a BASE jumper (no base jumps at all) it should not be on Our List.

Peace,
K

It's now fifteen for, and seventeen against. (One or two others made good points, but didn't voice a vote.)

None of those proposed section names are going to fly, LOL . . .

NickD
BASE 194

In Pursuit of the Sport

My vote is for. Poor scouting and forsight lead to this incident.

The third category sounds like a reasonable solution.

However it does open the door to some serious re-thinking. How could you not include people like Franz Reichelt who plunged to his death after intentionally stepping off the eiffel tower in 1912 wearing a cross between a wingsuit and a parachute??? This fixed object jump was clearly made with the faith and belief that it was achievable and survivable.....put another way, it wasn't a suicide. To not include him simply because he wasn't jumping with a conventional parachute is a bit short-sighted as who knows what jumpers will be wearing and landing in the next few decades; bear in mind the current desire to jump and land a wingsuit could lead us to the first non parachute BASE wingsuit fatality. If this were to happen would the person in question not make the list just because they weren't intending to deploy a ram air canopy to land.???

Talk about a can of worms

ian

After following this thread for a few days and changing my mind back and fourth I finally got to the reason I vote ,NO.

Making the decision to step off a fixed object is a hell of a thing to do, I struggle with the idea almost every time I'm on an object, sometimes I climb down. Often I'm all for doing a jump but once I get up there well...it's a lot harder to step off than I thought it would be.
Stranding yourself on an object is no guarantee you would jump.
Having never made a BASE jump who is to say he would have stepped off?
Ken died attempting to land a parachute on the arch after a skydive, he never got to the point where he would make a BASE jump to the ground below.
~J

IMHO, I think its reasonable to put him at the bottom. I think the situation is perhaps comparable to Jurgen's death in that he had no intention of exiting at that moment.

Mark

Yes!

It was 25 years ago, he most likely didn't know it was illegal to do an illegal BASE jump starting from an airplane!

I'm an outsider at the moment (not for long tho!), but here's my take.

I vote No. Ken died trying to get to the exit point, not doing the jump.

That may seem harsh but i think it's right.

I think it would be a better idea to put him and the jetski guy in a 3rd section, "B.A.S.E. Related Fatalities". (or something similiar)

Cheers

I vote yes...he died doing a bad-ass attempted base jump.

In fact I see more legitamacy in this as a bona fide base jump (he really didnt know what the hell was gonna happen but he rolled the dice anyway) compared to the thousands of 1 second delays from huge bridges with open landing areas that happen every year.

if you didnt take my statement as a vote i just say it here: NO

so the more balls or use of stupidety should guide to be on the list?
i dont second. a 1 sec delay off an high S still is a BASE,that the person choose to play safe is up to him or her...

He made a jump from an airplane,misjugded his landingarea and felt to his death. to me thats a skydiveincedent... or do i get on the topsection if i die driving to my object? No dying while DOING a BASEjump makes it to the toplist,If a person who made 1 BASEjump die whith other than á BASEjump then he makes it to the bottom.

He did neither... he jumped off a airplane and died from that action.That he wanted to jump from his LZ is plans in the future which never happened.therefore he were a skydiver who died skydiving.

He does NOT belong on the first list.

Assuming all the info is correct, when he came off the Arch, he had no intention of jumping at that point in time.

Refer to his intent and all the anecdotal evidence presented on this thread. He intended to land, cut the main canopy away, pack it, throw it down, and then jump off. He did not consciously or intentionally exit from the Arch, wind and the drag induced by his main canopy forced him off. If a gust of wind blows me off an exit point whilst I am looking over the edge, I am not going to log that as a BASE jump.

He only attempted to deploy his reserve because he saw no other option to save his life at the time.

People who die in an aircraft on take off or on the way to altitude DO NOT DIE skydiving, no matter what they intended to do later. They died whilst in transit to their destination. Skydiving is the freefall component of a parachute descent. The climb to height is neither freefall nor a parachute descent.

Alcoholics who die in a car accident whilst on the way to a bar DO NOT DIE from drunk driving (unless they were actually drunk at the time).

A mountain climber flying to The Himalayas who gets killed when his plane crashes did not die Mountaineering - even if this was his intent. He did not die mountaineering if he fell over at BASE camp and fatally injured himself.

In the end, Ken sounds like a nice bloke and deserves to be remembered one way or another. To those that knew and loved him, my condolences.

I sat underneath The Arch at the same location in 2003 thinking the same things. St Louis is a nice place. The people at Quantum Leap are great too.

So, using your logic, a hop-n-pop is not a skydive, and neither is a static line jump...but a cliff jump with a 5 second delay is.

I vote yes.

The attempt was truly courageous. He landed on the top. Despite losing his footing on the fixed object, he deployed his reserve, which failed him.

If we do not honor such limit pushing, what have we become?

Where did you get that logic from? It is certainly not mine. I think I will allow you to take the credit for that.

But since you want to discuss semantics:

Skydiving is the delay between exiting an aircraft and initiation of your deployment (I think they call this freefall). Last time I jumped off a cliff, it didn't have a roaring Pratt & Whitney anywhere nearby so I am not going to give that rock an aircraft definition. You would need some awesome power to get a cliff off the ground and flying. But I'll check again in case I've missed something.

In a hop 'n' pop from an aircraft, there is a freefall component. Albeit short. Hence you are skydiving. On a static line, deployment is initiated immediately. so you are not skydiving but are in fact parachuting.

Think about that for a second, if you did a s/l would you dive out? How far would you get on the dive? Not very. That is why a s/l is not a sky"dive" but a parachute descent.

Any jump off a fixed object is a BASE jump. Cliff = Earth = E = 4th letter in BASE = first half of terminology BASE Jump = . . . .


Oh, I give up.



p.s. the definitions are not mine. They are an integral part of parachuting / skydiving / BASE jumping vocabulary. If you don't believe me, go to para publishing and buy Poynter's manual. It has the definitions in there.

At least you understand that trying to discuss logic with a woman is illogical.

I vote yes.

I agree what Wendy says:
_________________
Had it worked it would have been a BASE jump.
_________________

If this would have been his second BASE Jump, he would have been on the second list.
But as he was not yet a BASE Jumper, he can not be on the second list. He died trying to do a BASE Jump.
To get to the exit point he did a Skydive but the Skydive was only a part of the preparation.

Hey Nick...

Maybe making a poll thread would make it easier for you to tally the vote...

So after reading some more of the thread I'm wondering....did the guy that slipped off an icy edge with a packed BASE rig on his back die BASE jumping? He had hiked up there to jump, he had BASE gear in a stash bag on his back, if he hadn't slipped he would have jumped (and ironically probably would have lived), so did he die BASE jumping?

Someone mentioned Dwain...is he on the top half of the list? Why? He had exited an airplane in wingsuit. That isn't a BASE jump....

Wow, this is confounding. Did I volunteer to take over The List when you retire? Oh yeah, I did. Silly me...(j/k, I'll still do the job even when it goes gray instead of being black and white.)

Love ya Nick, you're the best.

Peace,
K

yes, bottom of the list

He was attempting a base jump, even though it seems the skydive is what ended his life. I still think he should be added to the bottom list.

>>Maybe making a poll thread would make it easier for you to tally the vote...<<

I didn't use a poll so everyone would be more apt to explain their reasoning.

>>Someone mentioned Dwain...is he on the top half of the list?<<

Dwain is on the bottom section of the List.

>>How could you not include people like Franz Reichelt who plunged to his death after intentionally stepping off the eiffel tower<<

The List only includes fatalities that occurred after the "modern age" of fixed object jumping began in 1978.

Besides, there's some confusion about Reichelt's jump. I always believed he had a canopy loosely draped over some type of framework so that it would more easily deploy as he fell. Others think this was really an early bird man suit, and still others say he was just counting on the drag of all that material to slow him down.

It's twenty-four for, and nineteen against . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Hi Nick --

In my opinion, he did not die BASE jumping. He died sliding off an object that he intended to BASE jump from. He did not make any BASE jumps prior to this, and therefore was not a BASE jumper yet.

My vote is a definitive "No" for the top half of the list.

And my vote is "No" for the bottom half of the list. (BASE jumpers who died outside of the sport)

Bryan

It's twenty-four for, and nineteen against . . .

I think its a yes - the fact that he hadn't made any BASE jumps is merely semantics and splitting hairs with regards to the criteria of the list - and as it is your list, Nick, you decide whether that is the issue here. He died during the access portion of a BASE jump (see Neil Q ) and therefore deserves to be added.

....but on the other hand; if his family don't want him included, that should decide the matter.

My £0.0106696 (current exchange rate)

I think he deserves to be on the list, but not at the top. While he'd never had a BASE jump (that anyone knows of) it appeared that he was certainly attempting one so should be on the bottom. He deserves no higher place that the Feb. 02 fatality, since that jumper actually had jumps.

Then again, Swyers shares much in common with Fatality #56, who slipped on launch, which is on the top of the list.

Still, if I hadda, I'd put it on the list, at the bottom.

I think he'd be right at home on the bottom list. There are a couple of BASE jumpers there who slipped on the way to an exit point. Anyone who makes a serious attempt to land on the arch (with the intention of jumping from it) is already a BASE jumper in my mind. If he had stuck the landing but decided not to jump, that would be different. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on whether or not he "would have" done it.

Michael

Ok it seems that #56 died while making the jump, he slipped on exit but he was still in the process of doing the take-off, which is why he's on the top list.

Jurgen Ornburger and Neil Queminet died while reaching the exit, which is why they're on the bottom.

Ken's jump seems more like Jurgen and Neil's incidents than #56's. He died reaching the exit, not doing the launch portion of the jump like #56.

ooooohhhhhhhhhh - now I get it!

 

I like Phree's suggestion of "In Pursuit of the Sport"

Perhaps to include all those who die intending to carry out a BASE jump. Those who are climbing to the exit intending to BASE are in pursuit of their sport. Whilst they died outside the sport (climbing) they were pursuing BASE.

I feel the same goes here - many would argue he died before he commenced his BASE attempt (I'd perhaps disagree here but, just for the sake of argument let’s assume its not a true BASE jump). I think there would be a strong argument for saying he died pursuing a BASE jump though, would their not?

Thus you would have three strongly defined categories:
deaths by way of a BASE jump,
non-BASE jumping deaths of BASE jumpers,
and finally those who died during the commission of an act which is more than merely preparatory towards the conduct of a BASE jump - "In Pursuit of the Sport".

Those are my thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

with all due respect, NO for the existing 2 lists. he was neither a base jumper, nor did he die attempting to basejump. he did not even get to the attempt because he did not survive his skydive to begin with.

nevertheless, for his spirit (wanting to basejump) and for educational purposes i think there should be references as "other base-related deaths" for him and the rocket guy.

c-ya,
flummi

I vote yes for being on the list but in a new category.

And this discussion opens a new can of worms, I now realize I'm not sure how to classify plane to plane jumps when one lands in the same or another plane that one has just jumped out of.

Okay, case closed . . .

I'll add Ken and Robert to a third section of the List.

Thanks, everyone for replying . . .

NickD
BASE 194

What about a McCutaway? I was firmly informed (only partly tongue in cheek) that a McCutaway is neither a skydive (no aircraft) nor a BASE jump (no packed rig when leaving the object).

Plane to Plane = Skydive

Plane to Impact = Skydive

They all involve freefall pre-deployment. No one said you had to deploy. I guess it was just assumed you would.

This is too hard. I might just flop off or out of something and call it what all my non jumping friends call it, crazy.

And what about the obscure case of jumping from a ferris wheel and being killed in freefall by a plane in flight?

What about jumping from a car in flight? It's an aircraft, at least temporarily...

I've jumped off a "ferris wheel" - parachute opened well (just) before "impact".

I'll let you call that scenario whatever you like.

Have you got a photo of you smling for your avatar?

I think that is how Shorts developed the infamous Skyvan.

They had some pesky aero engineering student in their factory on work experience. SO they thought they would give him an "onsolvable task" to keep him occupied and out of their hair. "OK Fella, see that shipping container over there? We wreckon we can open up a new market if we can just fly those things around instead of taking them via slow ships. See if you can get it up in the air somehow"!!!!

And you wouldn't have believed what happened!!!! They had to change the name from Skycontainer to Skyvan because it didn't sound right.

"In a class by itself." Just like you.

>>What about a McCutaway? I was firmly informed (only partly tongue in cheek) that a McCutaway is neither a skydive (no aircraft) nor a BASE jump (no packed rig when leaving the object).<<

"Packing," is a relative term. Instead of stuffing and folding you are sort of wiggling everything into position . . . Remember when achieving proper ram air orientation involved a hook hanging somewhere. This is just stopping the pack job while it's still on the hook and before the point you mess it all up putting it away . . .

NickD
BASE 194