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I am buying my first base rig and after doing homework on the rigs i read about how the velcro rigs are easier for beginners.

I think that i would be happier knowing that my chute is being held in by two pins rather than a flap of velcro. no offense to velcro rig jumpers.

Also, is the chute harder to get into/and close the container with a 2 pin release system?

Just need a little feedback.
thanks.
e

I believe that pins are the way to go. They are presently the state of the art. Velcro in my opinion had its time and worked well, but now there is something better.
Just make sure that your mentor is using a pin rig or is at least well versed in their use.
I constantly hear people say that velcro should be used by beginners because it's easier to pack. I say bull shit to that. In recent years I have instructed 48 new jumpers. All but one used pin rigs and none of them had more difficulty packing than was expected of a new jumper.
Here is some thing else to consider. If you buy a velcro rig now you will most likely be wanting to sell it soon but you will find a very limited market to sell it too
O.K all you "velcro only for beginners" types. Flame away

P.S. No I'm not trying to sell this guy one of my rigs. I don't make them for others any more.

Can you tell us why you've ruled out the Prism (1 pin rig)?

Thanks!

Okay. Start by reading this and this.

This should get you started. Once you've read these, you will be better equipped to ask more specific questions.

Re-importing posts relevant to this discussion:

grundleson: i am not going to jump the base rig of anything stationary, rather, i am going to take my first base rig jump from a 3500 ft ultralight flight for a few rides and get my pack job down. then at that i am going to jump off a paraglider in open space with nothing to strike and learn the basics of packing a BASE rig. before i decide to make a REAL BASE jump.

i was told the hardest part is the pack job, the jump is the easy part.


KevinMcGuire:

GaryP :

JaapSuuter:
TomAiello
GaryP:

grundleson


DexterBase:

grundelson





DexterBase

cornishe:

TomAiello:

[
In a nutshell, I've generally found that by the time they get to that part of the pack job, a beginner is already frustrated and tired, and therefore quite likely to pull the flaps together by just cranking on the pull up cord. This is the biggest reason I recommend that beginners use velcro rigs.
I find this argument to be very interesting. If you know of a potential problem and you know the necessary fix and your students are still having problems, shouldn't you re-evaluate your teaching methods so that the problem does not arise?

Perhaps you can share your experience of how frustrating it must have been sitting in a hospital bed waiting to heal and perhaps they will slow down enough to avoid heading problems and the subsequent object strikes that may follow.

As an instructor you need to find ways to limit frustration on your students part. If you are failing to do this then ask your self why.
Here are some maxims that I always think of when teaching.
1) To remember is to understand.
Meaning, if you remember what it was like to be a new jumper, you will better understand what the new jumper is going through and thus be better able to relate to them, be it packing or fear management before a jump.

2) If you are not learning from your students, then you not really teaching.
Meaning 2 things. First, that teachers are often forced to develop new or alternative ways to make a point, and in doing so will invariably gain a more thorough understanding of the topic and second, that students (uncorrupted by convention) often discover new and innovative ways of doing things. Some times good, some times bad, but even bad things can be great teaching tools.

3) No one is completely worthless for they can always serve as a bad example. This one I think is self explanatory

Sure. But I haven't found a good way to address this one yet. The problem is not generally with the pack jobs they do when I'm standing there. It's with the pack jobs after they leave. Of the folks I've seen having this problem, none had it when they were receiving instruction (or at least, if they did, they were able to correct it when it was explained). It was almost always something that developed after instruction, or something they developed on their own while self-instructing.

Note that I've seen people who took courses from other people (not me), and used pin rigs in their courses (and presumably didn't have this issue during the course), who I later encountered, and observed to be doing this. Generally, it was something they started doing on their own, when they were gaining confidence in their pack job on later jumps, and hence going a bit faster.

 The pattern of behavior that results in a jumper rushing a pack job has little or nothing to do with what he or she is jumping and, that jumper is likely to have problems regardless of what type of gear he or she starts jumping first.
As you mentioned jumpers don't typically slow their pack jobs down as they get more experienced. In fact, they speed up.
So then wouldn't you agree that perhaps the time to teach them good habits is when they still have a great deal of fear, they are moving slowly. and you are there to help? What they do with the knowledge later is their business god bless em.

IMO Velcro should not be used as "training wheels" for pin rigs.
Take some one who has 50 jumps on a velcro rig and then give him a pin rig. Left to their own devices, they will no doubt, attempt to apply what they know about packing a velcro rig to packing the pin rig. Feeling some what invincible do to their "vast" amount of jumps, they may not ask for help cause think they can handle it, and Viola! they fuck it up. I know the majority of us are smart enough to ask questions but there are plenty out there who don't. They are (not always) usually the ones we read about.
I say, train like you play on the gear you will be using. We don't train computer geeks on the old 486 coumputers do we? Then why train on velcro if that is not what you will be jumping in the future?

WELL PUT KEVIN!! I AGREE TOTALLY!

It goes back to KISS.

HEY LONNIE!!!!

Good to see you online. I'm glad you're keeping an eye on us morons.

I'll be the first to say that I don't know sh*t, but I agree with Kevin and Lonnie. I never have liked Velcro rigs, I've only jumped on once, and ABSOLUTELY HATE to pack them.

I started with a Prism (BR single pin rig) and I still love it to this day. I also now have a 2 pin rig, the Vertex 2 with the cornerless bottom design, and even tho the 2 pins are easier to close, the dynamic corner rig is pretty tricky to work.

Velcro rigs require quite a bit more maintenance than a pin rig, they aren't as secure for aerials, terminal jumps, and climbing antenna ladders, and THEY OPEN SLOWER THAN ANY PIN RIG. Thanks to Kevin for proving that unequivocably at TF one summer.

Besides, do you want to buy something you're going to want to replace so soon? Especially when it's getting harder and harder to sell Velcro to any one. We've had many Reactor 4's on sale for quite some time, and no one is buying. Maybe you should just plan to keep it for a secondary rig, and use it for the wet stuff or the high bust factor jumps. I'd rather see a Velcro rig get confiscated than any of my pinned babies!!!

So I was going to keep my 2 cents to myself, but when I saw Lonnie on here I just couldn't stop myself.

xo
K

Whatchya askin' for 'em?

Gardner

Less fabric makes it a little easier to get the sides arround the pack job without moving anything - so I like to make my first S-fold, close the sides (velcro) or top and top sides (pin), make the last fold, insert the remaining fabric from the bottom, and then close the bottom.

On my velcro rig I have to be careful to avoid peeling the shrivel flap. On my pin rig everything stays parked.

Apart from that minor difference closing difficulty is the same.

Sub-optimal shape of the pack-job and/or top fold placement on my velcro rig means that by rolling my shoulders in I can get velcro peeling noises and a slight spread of the velcro at the top. My pin rig doesn't suffer from that and it takes greater variation in pack jobs to change the top pin tension. This was more of an issue when I started packing.

I wouldn't buy a new velcro rig but don't regret buying a used one as an inexpensive first rig and won't go through the trouble of replacing it with another pin rig.

just curious, but is anyone using the one fold and then roll method that i use? (i make the first fold then roll up the "ears"individually into the bottom of the container after making certain dressing)

I have found advantages in using this method, and wondered if anyone else is doing something similar...........again, just curious...................

I think I am using that method. I set the tail pocket in, make the first fold and secure the top closing loop first.

I like this method because it secures the nose fold and I can get up and then dress the other folds up...

I use that sometimes.

Dennis McGlynn taught that method to a lot of people over the years, so I'm sure there are plenty of folks doing it.

Isn't this "roll the ears" technique how riggers do reserves in skydiving rigs? Getting it into the molar bag nicely that is.

Can you elaborate on what advantages? I primarily like the fact that it fills the bottom corners better on some rigs, and that it gets the "ears" out of the way of the bridle.

I think Leroy's got a good point that if you close the top flap first, it could also help keep the nose in position.

I have always avoided rolling anything in my pack job except of course for terminal jumps. I have always felt that if I roll some thing up while packing, then it would have to unroll during unpacking and do so at high speed. This is bad for two reasons.

First, there is a higher potential for an asymmetric opening caused by one side unrolling faster than the other. In my opinion This is a very frequent cause of off heading openings experienced by most jumpers.

Second, In addition to asymetrical openings, there is a higher chance of burning the canopy material as it whips past it self while unrolling. This of course is not only costly to repair, but it can turn serious real fast.
My earliest experience with sewing machines was gained by repairing damage caused by burns to my canopy. Back in the day, I did those repairs alot.
Not so much any more.
Personally I have always found it easier to pin the bottom pin first the shake the canopy down into the corners at the bottom of the rig. Admittedly, I have not jumped any other make of pin rig besides my own so I can't offer an opinion about how others should be packed but to me top pin just seemed logical.

[ but to me top pin just seemed logical.
Oops meant bottom pin sorry

I found that it fills out the container more consistantly so pin pressure is more consistant. It helps fill out the corners with dynamic corners. I have had an increase in heading performance since using this method (although I do think packing is a small effect on overall heading performance). I have found it generally much easier to pack and close with both velcro and pins.

Have you experienced any fabric burning of the type Kevin describes?

Kevin, do you think that folding the "ears" (rather than rolling) would reduce this problem?

I think that it really depends on how much they are folded. How much is too much some may ask? I only fold the canopy (or any part of it) enough so that I can place it cleanly into the container and no more. I know thats not as scientific as some would like but everyone will need to figure it out for them selves. Most already have.
Where the canopy folds are made and how each canopy fits into a container is specific to the combination of rig and canopy.
I should say though that folding can and some times does cause the same damage as rolling so don't get too carried away

Where were you finding the canopy damage?

Back before clamps where used extensively, the tail was where most of the damage was found. It appeared in the form of burns at a 45 degree angle to the trailing edge on the top skin, usually near the tail pocket. Back then, We were less skilled at tail folding and placement and we did funky things that we thought might help promote nose first deployments.
I remember one night after a jump, Seth and I were repacking when Seth said that he had a really great opening on the last jump. I asked him what he had done differently the last time he packed and he said" well, I drank two beers, and had my lucky chicken foot in my pocket. That must have been the difference, oh yea I rolled the tail up tightly so that the nose opened first. Humm thats funny... I don't remember those burns being there before"

Nowadays, I see burn damage mostly on the stabilizers from what I assume is either from plain old bad packing or perhaps from the practice of micro reafing. (I would prefer that some one else describe what that is exactly)
Also I've seen burns on the top skin, center and end cells and on the center ribs presumably cause either by rolling the nose and stuffing the outer cells into the center or from wrapping the center cell around the pack job prior to making the last fold into the container. Often the color from one cell can be found on another which is a dead give away as to what caused it. I could spend all night describing the various causes of burns but my fingers are getting tired