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The BASE Fatality List maintained by NickDG is hurting the BASE community and is damaging our fight for fair access throughout the world. While I can appreciate its educational value, the "death list" grossly exaggerates how dangerous our sport can be and vilifies BASE jumping as a suicidal hobby for lunatics. The death list is routinely being referenced by websites, news reports, the NPS, and numerous non-jumping forums throughout the world. Whenever positive BASE jumping discussions are started, it never fails that the death list is brought into the equation and BASE jumping is once again looked down upon. How many other sports keep track of their dead? How many other death lists have a photo of the grim reaper's sister next to a big "85" at the top of the page? Why does Nick's death list invite press inquires at the bottom? If we are ever going to change the negative stereotype that surrounds us wherever we go, then the death list must be removed or password protected.

The death list is indexed by many website search engines, so it's quite easy for anyone to find the current death count. The media routinely references the number of dead in every injury, incident, or fatality story. This is very damaging to our sport. If you'd rather continue jumping at night and getting arrested everywhere you go, then you may not find Nick's death list as detrimental to our sport. If you'd like to see the public's perception of BASE jumpers change for the better and promote fair and equal access in National Parks and other sites around the world, then you might agree with me. I'm sure that some of you will see the list for its "remembrance" value rather than the harm is it doing to our sport and I fully respect that.

I've made several offers to password protect NickDG's death list, but he respectfully declined citing "personal reasons". I'm still unsure of what his personal reasons are, but his recent fake suicide posting on this forum leads me to believe he's obsessed with death. Don't get me wrong - I like NickDG and I consider him a friend. But this is just something we both disagree on and I'm posting this to see what everyone else thinks. Your thoughts?

I recently received information that Nick's death list is also being used by several unfriendly government organizations around the world to show how unsafe our sport is.

A quick web search revealed the following links to the Death List:

Monday's death is the 79th known base-jumping fatality....according to.....Nick Di Giovanni.

...BASE fatality statistics compiled by....Nick Di Giovanni, there have been 85 deaths worldwide.

An example of the hundreds of search engines that have indexed the Death List

Wikipedia Encyclopedia Links to BASE Fatality List

I suspect clean up duty SUCKS!

Nick's BASE Fatality List

If I ever bounce on a BASE jump, I don't want be displayed on Nick's death list for the world to see. As an experienced jumper, having my face on the death list would only show that I failed in some way. However, if I grow old and die of natural causes, feel free to put my name on the list as it would be the only positive listing so far.

So Nick, why can't you at least password protect the death list?

In one of the threads you referenced:


That had me LOL hard.

 
Why not just put the data online, but not the stories, pictures, and personal details? To a new jumper who wants to analyze the ratio of object strikes to totals, the data would still be there. A reporter would have far less incentive to link to a plain table of data though, because how interesting is that?

If Nick's goal is to have the page up for educational value, then it's hard to argue against just presenting the data and having no superflous trappings.

My 2 cents.

- KW

Keep it. I've heard that dozens of hikers die each year. Maybe we should instead start a web site with the grizzly descriptions of the deaths of all these hikers, thus preventing the wanton and needless loss of life from hiking. Or maybe a website with deathly descriptions of alcohol poisening which might limit a citizen's right to alcohol, despite the Constitutional amendment.

I think (for whatever it's worth) it should stay in the public domain, it's a warning to the living.

I would imagine typing "*your sport here* Fatality" into any news or search engine would find nothing but bad news too.

Maybe like yourself, you could 'opt out' of publicly being named if ever you make the wrong side of the list.

But i do think it has a more positive effect than negative.. if that makes any sense.

No it doesn't. All of those deaths happened. There is no exaggeration.


Perhaps a compromise is to set the tags in the HTML so that the site isn't cxrawled by spiders and robots.


How do you propose to manage that? Who would make the decision to who has access or not


It would probably appear in lots of news articles so what is different about the Fatality List? Do you think it unlikely your death would result from your failure?

I say keep it. It is too valuable. And work to provide some positive PR about the sport. Maybe Nick could link to a resource of yours demostrating as such?

Why isn't this on BLiNC? How is this helping those who "you plan to try your hand at BASE jumping" ?

Hi Jason,

We had this conversation in private, but okay, we can do it here

I've wanted to take the List down several times over the years, but I always get talked into leaving it up by other BASE jumpers.

I published the first version of the List in 1987 as a training aid, but more so as a memorial to my friends. It's grown since then into this big thing. The List is written for jumpers and it's the reason it comes off frightening and cold to non-jumpers. But, I don't agree "unfriendly government organizations" can use this information against us. No one can hurt us with the truth.

Without the List being public, there's nothing to stop "unfriendly government organizations" from claiming there are one hundred BASE fatalities a year.

I don't especially like maintaining the List anymore, but it's survived all the changes BASE jumping has undergone since we "were" a small band of brothers. It's a constant that binds us together and fixes us to our history.

Since we can't censure the one hundred dollar "Come One, Come All," First BASE jump Courses the List shows those inquisitive enough to look, the dangers involved. And, yes, there are all kinds of arguments either way.

I'm not totally against the idea of password protecting the site. I just don't see how that's going to keep determined "unfriendly government organizations" from gaining access. I'm also open to taking it down altogether.

Jason, couldn't you state your case against the List without calling it, "Nick's Death List" so many times? And this --->>>leads me to believe he's obsessed with death.<<

Come on, brother, it was a Saturday Night Live sketch . . .

NickD
BASE 194

A technical point of order: if the Base Fatality List is password protected, someone with access will leak it every time there is an addition.

This means to me there is no middle ground with the list: it must either exist or not.

That's your opinion. Have you read some of the climber forums? Have you read the public comments on the websites that posted the dam carnage video? We have a very bad image. Morbidly listing dead jumpers as well as the official death toll (85) in large red numbers at the top of the page DOES present our sport as grossly suicidal, in my opinion.


Easily done. The password can be passed on verbally or via private email to interested parties. This is very similar to the showing of bounce videos to newbies (private and effective, and there to see if you are interested).


The death list is eternal. News stories aren't.


Because Blinc belongs on the fatality list. This forum is more effective and efficient.

I know that some jumpers have a fascination with death. I also know that many jumpers will want to keep the list. But, when I truly believe in something, I'm not going to keep quiet. If the general consensus is to keep the list, then hopefully Nick can at least add some additonal information on there to show the positive aspects of our sport. Thanks for your comments Craig.

I think it would help if there was a more thorough introduction to the list. Move the background story that is now at the bottom to the top of the page and explain it's purpose and the significance of the statistics. Without knowing how many base jumpers exist and how many jumps are made, the number in the top right corner really doesn't say much, except act as a general warning and memorial.

I'd hate to see the list go. The public should applaud the people in this sport for taking the responsibility and courage to document the mistakes (and bad luck) of our fallen comrades.

As far as I know, climbers don't maintain such a database. I climb myself and I recall a fatal accident a couple of years back where a forum discussion about it quickly degenerated in a "no-respect-for-the-dead" flamefest. The bottom-line was that the deceased wasn't wearing a helmet, which might have saved him. Accidents happen. Documentation is good.

I say, provide a good context and explanation for the list's existence (memorial, scare and learn-from-mistakes), at the very top of the page (maybe even on a separate page that you have to see before continueing to the main page) and the list will have a more positive image to the outside world.

Two cents though. Maybe even just one.

Cheers,

Jaap

I apologize if bringing this into the public forum is not what you wanted. But I feel that everyone should know the facts and provide input. This affects us all.


Nick, remember the private email I sent you regarding this? "They" are analyzing your list as we speak. I have written proof. Unfortunately, I have been asked to not divulge the details of this until later.


If anyone claims 100 fatalities a year, it could be disproven through our own records. Nobody really knows how many base jumpers there are in the US, and that lack of information typically persuades the media to shy away from guessing.


Sorry man, that is just the name I have called it for years. It's a lot easier to say than "Nick's BASE Fatality List".

 I wish to keep visiting the list....
TO learn with other´s errors... :(

Ask for them put on public the traffic fatality list, drugs consumer fatality list,

WAR fatality list

Etc......
After we compare the HOLE STATISTIC, Nick can decide if hide it or not!!!!!!!!!!

See ya.

And anyway. . .

Psalms 108, 4

"For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds."

NickD
BASE 194

Perhaps moving towards more of a database style format with some details scrubbed, with more of a historial refererence but still having all the data sortable and searchable for those that want to put the time into it.

Having a standerd format where things like canopy, rig, protective gear, experience, delay, etc would go a long ways into making it less of deathlist and more of a learning tool. I think the old SkydiveFatalities setup would be a good idea where all that info is listed at the top then the bottom is a lessons learned section. Having it in a database format is even better so you can run a search for learning is good too. See just what were object strikes and what lessons could be learned from a wire ride vs a cliff strike.

If BASE will ever be legalized in the NPS, it will be because of your efforts. Keep up the fight.

But having said that, your call to bring the List down seems to be driven by the comments you've seen on the climber's forum. My read of those posts is that the climbers aren't complaining about the dangers of BASE, their complaint is with the "F*ck you, I'll do what I want" mentality of some jumpers. That's the hurdle that needs to be overcome to legalizing jumping in the NPS. The NPS is probably more concerned about the fact that jumpers are taking skiis off the Potato Bridge when they're told not too, than with the inherent dangers of BASE.

I think the List is an incredible educational tool & thanks to Nick DG for taking the time to see that others can try and learn from those mistakes.

The BASE fatality list holds too much information that we can learn from to be taken away from public viewing.

I don't think the positive image that might be gained will outweigh the loss of a valuable learning tool from taking the list down. It's too bad the national parks won't let us jump there, but I don't think taking down the list is the answer.

I agree that putting an intro or description on the top of the list might be a good idea. It will explain the site upfront and reduce the chance of unknowing visitors thinking we are suicidal. However, I don't think it will solve any media problems. If they want to refer to facts on the list in a negitive sense, then they will.

Katie.

I think that we are developing some great ideas here. Sometimes a collaborative effort is the best way to get good input and develop a system that is beneficial for all.

Chuckbrown, my thoughts on this base list were not driven by climbers comments. I have talked to Nick about this for quite some time.

As an experienced jumper who actively follows the forums, I'm don't have as much use for the list as others do. But I would never want to take away the lessons learned from these incidents. I think there is some common ground here. Maybe cleaning up the fatality list so that it's not so dark would be a good start. Remove the red 85 at the top. Turn it into more of an informative, educational tool. Heck, include commentary on "how this accident could have been prevented". Provide links to positive BASE websites or another page that lists other statistics about the sport.

Maybe even remove the numbering system applied to each fatality? If the list is truly for educational and memorial purposes, who cares about the tally?

Thanks for the good discussion so far.

Nick i told you this before and i still stand by it.YOU DO A GREAT JOB MAINTAINING that site.

I do belive that site nomatter how sad its to read(yes even by thouse few year ive been in the sport i spoke to some of thouse people.)

I USE that werry list each time i want to do a jump i think is on the edge,i look at the site,wondering if my kids one day will look at a pic of me smiling on that list.
Some times i do the jump sometimes i dont,but im sure that it has kept me on the safe side a couple of times.

If this were a vote you would get the "LET IT STAY!!!"

You might look at it dameging our sport but its a pert of it. more than most of touse legal boogies arround(even as i think theyre great things,they ruin "BASElife" the evryday BASEjumper...

Just my point..it would make me even more sad not having a place to go were i still can see freinds even after theyre gone...

Nick if you feel a preassure i can help(what ever you can ask this bad speller to do anyway..),i dont know by what but im here. i think its a werry special place to MY sport...

Jason

I love and respect you man and think you're a top bloke so please don't think i'm having a pop in any way...there's always a place for you to stay if you ever come visit.

You have invited comments so here are mine for what they are worth.

I think you underestimate the press and how they will stop at nothing to get the story they want, which often isn't the story that exists . I don't believe that removing the list will make one iota of difference and infact might open the gates for journalists to speculate on the figures of fatalities within the sport. I grow tired of hearing from Joe Public how basejumpers pop their clogs at a rate of 50 a year.

Their perception of how dangerous our sport is seems to be hugely disproportionate to the reality, and this exists DESPITE the facts being available....not BECAUSE of them.

Take the list away, and i guarantee that the figures for base fatalities will rise in press stories, not disappear. Journalists quote the fatality numbers in their articles not for the sake of the list itself but always within a context. This is usually after a high profile accident or an arrest or some other news worthy story. Without a reliable fatality reference, the story will still run, why wouldn't it.??? This time though they'll just print whatever figure they like. Danger sells Jason and don't let the absense of a lack of official figures get in the way of a good story. If it were me, and i was as ambitious and unethical as most of them seem to be, i reckon something like 1 a week would sound good.....and hey......where's the proof to contradict me.

Base has had (to our knowledge) 85 fatalities since it first began about 30years ago. That's 85 deaths too many but in view of what we actually do (plunge to earth with seconds to impact) it's not excessive. The fatality list is testiment to how careful and organised we are and in no way exaggerates the danger. 3 decades, hundreds of thousands of successful jumps, 85 deaths????; One plane crash and you wipe out over 300 people in one second.

Jason, i just don't believe the list is hurting BASE in any way. The problems you list, of misrepresentation, prejudice, scapegoating, bias, ignorance and scaremongering are sadly something we will all have to try to fight, educate against and most likely tolerate. At the end of the day, the average person will NEVER EVER EVER understand what it is that makes us do what we do and so they'll pigeon hole us in a way that makes sense in their world. If that means we're suicidal nutters, then that's what we are in their world and keeping or losing the fatality list won't make one scrap of difference.

Truth is truth. Hide it, sweep it under the carpet, coat it in sugar and hang a bull's nut sack on it but it's still the truth baby.

And yes I do view it as a list of rememberence.

With utmost respect

ian

ps. love to Jen and hope the pregnancy is going well.

Keep it.


It would be a disservice to anyone considering BASE to remove it. I for one am not into candy coating anything just to make it more appealing to the masses or "powers that be". Look what that has done to skydiving.


Every BASE FJC in the states references it as important reading for students. Too bad skydiving doesn't.

Hey Ian,

More great comments and thanks for posting. As I said when I originally posted this, I knew that most people want it to stay intact. And I think that it can stay as long as it's changed. My views might be quite different than the majority, but that doesn't mean they are bad. I deal with the NPS and the media quite a bit more than the average jumper, so maybe my views are slanted. Regardless, as I mentioned before, some great ideas have resulted from this and that was my original intention.

Good to chat with you.....my crazy, dental hygenically challenged friend!!! Cya.

It's not an exaggeration but it is misinformation because the base rate isn't taken into account.

People have no idea how many BASE jumps occur which are incident free (and neither as a community do we!). Without that data you can't determine risk.

My gut feel is that "the list" does therefore exaggerate the probability of failure.

Shoot me if you will....what the hell do I know.
Reading 'The List' objectively, and not sensationally, made me decide to do alot more groundwork and research before making a first jump.

It helped polarise a view that this 'sport' and its risks are very real....and bad things can , and probably will happen......

If any newbies think like I do.......then that list helps keeps future 'additions' to a minimum......so it should stay and be available publically.

As already stated....this type of information will always come out......you cant hide this information.
At least on this list its displayed with accuracy and respect.

Viva la List.......although it would be great for it to just gather dust, because there are no new 'updates'

Would be nice if someone could run a survey on any given night/weekend...
Post your BASE jump numbers for that period of time...
That would give an 'idea' of how many jumps are happening on a given date

Edited to add :Me 'tinks dis is probably for Blinc

I strongly disagree with any effort to "de-humanize" the List. I think it has more weight to the BASE community if you can attach a name and face to a fatality description.

The purpose of the list is to remember the ones who have gone in, help other jumpers learn from their mistakes in an attempt to prevent the same things from happening again, and show new jumpers the hazards they face.

I think reading the list and seeing the faces of the ones who have died is far more likely to give them pause, and make them really consider what they're getting into, than looking at a couple bar graphs and statistacal anaysis stuff instead.

If Nick doesn't want to do it anymore, hell, I'll learn something about computers and take it over for him.

Just because others misuse the List doesn't make it any less important to the people it was designed for, us BASE jumpers.

I disagree. Most BASE jumpers I know don't even know or care about the BASE forums online.

Most of them are pretty active so at least with the jumper I know, this will be a very inaccurate survey. I don't have an alternative to offer, it's just very hard to keep track of an inherently secretive activity.

I'm confused. Jumpers don't care about forums, but they somehow find their way to the fatality list? And this list is mysteriously weeding out the bad ones? Usually the bad ones don't care about a fatality list anyway. I think everyone is overrating the list as some kind of necessary tool to review before they get into base. How many of you honestly read it BEFORE you started jumping? How many of you understood it?

If Joe Skydiver doesn't know the risks of BASE before he makes his first jump, is the list really going to help? However, the list is probably much more valuable to the amateur or experienced jumper because he/she can analyze the list and understand every aspect of it.

Either way, I think everyone agrees the list is valuable to US. Not THEM.

I did, and I believe plenty more people did. And that was before Tom Aiello asked me to as part of his FJC.

In fact, I took a pen and for each and every accident that included enough information, I asked myself the question: "Could this happen to me?"

Some accidents on the list were on jumps more dangerous than others. Some accidents on the list were with gear that nowadays wouldn't be used anymore. This allows for a projection onto your own comfort-zone, and a re-evaluation of how dangerous you really feel base is, and how dangerous you can make it.

That doesn't mean that I know what the hell I'm talking about. On a long enough timeline, everybody's survival rate drops to zero . But I thought it was an interesting exercise nonetheless.

Cheers,

Jaap

I did. and it wasn't so long ago.
I did find it helpful and it did put things into perpective.

my 2 pesos

I would like to see the list as it is!

Keep up the good work Nick

A caveat first: I haven't read the whole thread and therefore I may be repeating someone here. But probably unlikely...

I really don't think the issue here is the list, but the current way the media works, and global communication.... We have an entirely sensationalist media and unfortunately this now has transferred to politics/government etc - just look at the UK news at the moment and Margaret. At the risk of sounding "preachy", this is something everyone should be fighting against, it is a cancer and undermines the fundamental aspect of being human: the ability to analyse and think rationally.

Taking the list offline would just be pandering to this, effectively adjusting BASE values to the current media trend. BASE is not about this, and even if we are the only ones portraying ourselves honestly, so be it.

I've been drinking - could you tell?

You just made me think of an excellent followup question (to mangle someone else's dropzone.com tagline): How many fatalities has the Base Fatality List prevented?

The list might, as you say, be bad for the sport, but so are deaths. If the list has prevented one or more deaths (or even "just" maimings), that would make the list bad for the sport and good for the sport....

I should add that I think the list should be presented rationally - it is a tool and not a news report (and I think it mostly is).

           A Saturday Night Live Sketch ?

So I don't Base Jump.. But, I will. And one of the first things I looked for was this list, actually A list. The Base Fatality List serves me good. I've read about all these different ways you can screw up. It showed me that this way of life must be respected.
If this list makes it harder, good because that means there are people who think twice about it.

I'm sure having that kind of information has benefited alot more then it has bad.

....and now I've read the thread, and that bastard Northern hippo has made the point far more eloquently then I....

I did and it was valuable in my understanding some of the risks involved in BASE. I even refer back to it when I read about past incidents so that I can have a different viewpoint on what might have happened.

I read the list before I started BASE jumping, and still do to this day. I have a couple of friends on the list.
If people remark about the number of deaths there are, then you should stand up and represent your sport. Tell them that number is a world wide number, and it's over a course of 30 years.

I just saved a copy of the list, and if it is removed then I will put it back up on SONIC BEEF.com and keep it going.

Good work Nick!! Keep it going, dont take it down because some people perceive it to be morbid instead of informative. Don't polish it up so they get a warm fuzzy about it either. THIS SHIT IS DANGEROUS!

This has been an excellent thread, the first one in eons to hold me spellbound to the last post.

I totally disagree with Jason on this, even though I love him and Jen to death.

"The List" has been an invaluable educational tool as well as a memorial for our fallen brothers and sisters. I think it should be required reading for all FJC students, or even skydivers thinking about BASE. I believe that by educating, informing, and keeping track, we give some credence and stability to an otherwise shunned activity. Maybe other sports don't keep track of their dead, and maybe they should! I have learned something from each and every posting on "The List", and I was never more pissed when Erich went in by doing the EXACT SAME THING SKYPUNK DID!!!! Didn't he read The LIst? Didn't he learn from it???? That, to me, was the worst aspect of The List I've ever seen. To me, that is the main purpose of The List, to NOT do what someone else did, to their fatal detriment.

The press and the government can skew things in whatever manner they choose. It is up to us to provide facts and proof at every opportunity. Keeping The List points to a high level of responsibility; responsibility to educate, inform, warn, and to BE RESPONSIBLE for ourselves as jumpers.

I certainly hope that I appear at the bottom half of The List, having died from a heart attack from my 20th orgasm of the night. But if in fact I do end up on the top half of The List, my only prayer would be that some other jumper could live by learning from my mistake. To NOT be willing to show your face on this List points to a level of pride, nay, arrogance, that I don't think is appropriate in this activity. Sorry Jason, but I believe that right down to my toenails.

And Nick, you've known since Dwain died that I am willing and able to take over when you're done. You have done an amazing thing for BASE by creating The List, and it should continue to remain accessible to anyone that wants to see it.

I do agree that perhaps we should write up an explanantion of The List and why it was created, and what we intend for it to do. I definitely think we should take a wild-ass guess at how many SUCCESSFUL jumps there have been in contrast to the 85 deaths in 30 years. I think it would be an excellent thing to try to find out how many motocross riders or climbers have died in the last 30 years. By way of comparison, BASE would look a lot less deadly to the lay person.

Jason, don't let them fetter you! We do need to be respectful, educated, open minded, and willing to listen to any person or organization who approaches us. I don't feel we need to roll over and pretend anything. We value our List. We respect our dead. We learn from their mistakes. We immortalize them and revere their sacrifice. We do not put our heads in the sand and pretend it can't get ugly, even though this seems to be the American way these days.

Nick, I love you, and keep up the good work.
Jason, I love you, and keep up the good work.
Ah hell, I love you all! You are my family.

Peace,
Karen

Jason,

Although I understand your goal, I think you might consider that burying the facts is abhorrent to ethical people. I know you well enough to know you are ethical, so I can't figure out where you came up with this harebrained idea.

Further, I think making an issue of what you allege to be Nick's obsession with death calls for an apology from you to him. But that's just my opinion, and you can do whatever you want.

Just remember, though, that the webpage you propose to impose strictures on belongs to Nick, and he, like you, can do whatever he wants, no matter what public pressure you bring to bear.

If it comes to a vote, then mine is that the webpage should remain as it is or as Nick may choose--without undue interference--to make it in the future. Although it now serves as an educational tool, it remains a memorial to those who have gone before. It would be a terrible thing for any of them to be forgotten.

rl

JAson, you know I've never made a single BASE jump, but I've read the list so many times I can probally tell you everything you could ask me about it. I'd watch a cool wall wingsuit video and get psyched about BASE then I'd go and read the List and realize just how thin of margins there are and just how deadly the game is that you play. The List is one of the big things that have kept me from running off to a FJC and hucking myself off all sorts of objects around here. The list is a big service to jumpers, wannabe's and anyone interested in the sport. Removng it would be a huge disservice to those same people.

I believe the List is an important resource, in it's current form.

I believe the list helps to (a) dissuade overeager young jumpers, (b) spread valuable information, and (c) humanize and memorialize fallen jumpers.

I don't think restricting access is a good idea, because that would reduce the dissemination of potentially life saving information. I don't think de-humanization is a good idea, because that (a) reduces the memorial value, and (b) reduces the "sink in" on young jumpers reading.

I can't count the number of people I've seen in the last year who are just starting BASE and _really_ have no concept that it might, just maybe, be more risky than skydiving.

If the list saves even one persons life (by, say convincing them not to take up BASE), I think it's worth it. Even if it is the only thing that prevents legal access to National Parks in the US.

In my view, saving the lives of BASE jumpers is more important than gaining access to National Parks (or other legal objects).

Well spoken, Tom.

Well said chuckbrown.

That's what you call taking responsibility for your own actions.

We have an evolving image that "WE" (meaning the BASE community) is helping to create. Jumpers give the "outside world" the ammunition to shoot ourselves down!!!!!

There are lots of great, ethically responsible jumpers out there. But there are also some dickheads too. This is what society wants to hear about. That is why they tune in or subscribe or buy.

I find it amusing that people will slag the media off and then go out and do something really stupid that the media end up reporting. DON't FEED THEM!!!!

HELLO - IS ANYONE HOME??? IS THERE A LIGHT ON IN THERE?????

When society sees professionalism, they will become less interested in mistakes when they occur.

The list is maintained to honor and remember our friends and fellow jumpers, not to disrupt the business intent of certain individuals in this community. Putting up such a post to pressure an individual into complying
with anothers wishes is a seperate thread indeed, but Nick is an individual and a respected base jumper in the community. As Nick honors our fallen, Base jumping honors the individual and the individuals spirit and independence. We honor rebels and freedom, not censorship and peer pressure. We deal with reality, not imaginary beliefs and business corporate interests.

I am not a supporter of padding corners for others, or softening the world to make things more pallatable; I support the truth. Unless Nick is lying or reporting falsely he should continue to do as he wishes and pleases. Against the mainstream or against the commercial interests of the base parasites who sell mugs and t-shirts on websites and stand only to profit from suppressing truth, in order to garner greater public support.

People die in base, people get injured.Its a reality. Its our choice and our freedom to do so. The public doesnt need deception or sugar coating. It needs a lesson in taking responsibility for its actions in the real world. Trying to craft an impression that base is safe and death free is wrong and ridiculous. Keep the list up, Nick. Some of us still jump less than legal sites and make no profit from administering and "leading" the sport, which should remain non commercial. And some of us like having our friends remembered by many and all.

Good day.

i'm definitely for keeping the list.

i also read the list before i started to BASE. and having been a skydiver, it at least helped me understand more of the dangers.

i also liked the ideas posted here about some modification, like Jaap posted about a better explanation of why it exists.

overall, i don't see any difference in that list, and the very public posting of deaths and incident forums concerning skydiving. i'm sure there are groups out there trying to ban skydiving as well... as it is a dangerous sport also, and could be construed as dangerous to the public... wouldn't want a helmet flying off your head and hitting a girl walking to her bus stop.

anyway, i'm getting off on a tangent... do what you will, i have no problem jumping at night.

Hi Jason

Some quotes from our "feeder sport".

When you start a skydiving course, the theory instructor often says "you could die doing this activity".

When you sign the waiver it says (or at least should say) "this activity is dangerous".

If you are a tandem master your passenger usually sits in front of you. Your most obivous visual is the warning tag on the passengers harness " this is dangerous / death / injury / etc".

There can be excess social or trivial drible in the forums at times. Some people could not be bothered wasting their precious time reading through the crap in the off chance that they might find some useful information. A concise list is more interesting.

Also, most people are interested in death, Not just NDG as you stated. What happens at an accident scene? Traffic slows down so that the rubbernecking masses can see carnage. The news is full of death. They would not show it if they could not get ratings. Ratings are "won" from an interested public. If the public did not want to see death, they would not show it. Current affairs programs = death and grandmas getting ripped off, computer games = death and violence, movies = death and action and love, etc . .. . . . . Tsunami in Asia = many deaths and society (as opposed to govts) digs deep to help. If it was only homelessness, less help would have been provided. etc etc etc

More examples: I personally have never seen a TV story about rock fishing that did not include some references to death. I only see stories about motor races in other countries when there is a major accident.

The simple fact that an activity can kill will turn many people away from the sport. i.e - classic quote "I will never jump out of an airplane because it scares me". It may also attract people with inherent psychological abnormalities.

I am very interested in any data r.e. injuries & fatalities and the data is extremely useful for improving technique and technology.

CASA - (Civil Aviation Safety Authority in Australia - equivalent to USA FAA) publish accidents and fatalities. Most motoring organisations publish statistics too. Other aviatoin sports publish incident reports. Many parachuting organisation publish lists too.

The only difference is the format and method of presentation. The list is a little more personal and less formal than lists from other sports.

The way I would like to see the list is in an incidentr report form format. If anyone wants an incident report form, email me.

Hi Jason, respect ..

I think it a bit rich to suggest as you do in your starting post that Nick's List is responsible for the negative perception of BASE jumpers in the general public worldwide. You seem to infer that it's removal from public view will result in a better view of BASE worldwide as a whole. Again I think this is a pretty big call.

You can see (maybe) that most of the ppl posting replies here, your peers, are staunchly in favour of it's existance and mostly in it's current form. As some others have said there's a lot of other issues that BASE'rs need to address both in your country and elsewhere to have this mostly negative view of BASE changed.

Basically, BASE'rs need to lift their game in many areas and look inwards and answer the question "have I done absolutely everything possible in the way I've acted and the way I've pushed my colleagues/friends to act" before looking to blame one single web-page for the ills that have befallen BASE worldwide.

Also, let's remember that we will always be up against that which drives at the very heart of humanity and it's perception (and ignorance) of our sport - the fear of falling and the fear of the unknown.

Knowledge dispels fear and I feel that exposing the public to more knowledge on legal and competition BASE, and just BASE in general will eventually get us what we are looking for. It is already happening - slowly. Don't blame "The List" - it is too valuable a reference to lose. You give us nothing tangeble as evidence to back up your claim that it's removal will be a vast betterment - you only give your opinion which is not enough to get my vote for it's removal.

Also, whilst you say it's detrimental to BASE worldwide I really only see your agenda being the push for legal BASE in Nat.Parks in YOUR country. Don't let other countries lose this valuable reference for an agenda for which they have no gain.

Having The List made public is the only way it can really be kept as up-to-date as it is. The recent addition of #56 from Peuro Rico is an exaple of this.

Keep The List

Let's get a poll going.

Thank you for allowing me to vent.

G.

Been thinking about this from another point of view.....
If people want ( and I dont think evryone does) BASE to be accepted, and therefore maybe help 'open' up a few objects ( or at least increase the chances of the owners of these objects providing consent to jump off)..........
The 'People' who make these activties 'acceptable' and drive that view forward ( Government,Media etc) are going to HAVE to know the 'stats'. The list provides a description of the times its gone wrong and as already stated viewed on its own provides a skewed take on fatalities during this activity
If you could reference that list to the 'approx' number of jumps made in the time period.....or any time period....this would reflect more accurately the 'risk'.
Thats evidence..and stuff you can work with.

Only problem about it being acceptable....is that it risks becoming mainstream........which risks more people entering unprepared....which risks another spike in the incidents /fatilities

Hey Jason, good thing to try to make things evolve ;)


I did, it was one of the first document I read last year when I started to think about BASE jumping.
It helped me to understand a lot of things and realize others.

I don't know anything about press but at least if they refer to the list they can't make up numbers.

Being able to provide a rough number of BASE jump made since the beginning of the list would help to relativize the number of death.

Thanks for your work Nick and good luck Jason.

Personally, Jason, I think you're WAY over-exagerating the importance of the list... Anyone looking at it will see that 85 deaths over 25 years will compare favorably with all other sorts of sports such as rock climbing and scuba diving - expecially to a NPS ranger who is going to know how many people get lost and die of exposure while hiking in the USA per year, or how many climbers die per year in National Parks.

Secondly, I think it would be a great idea to have a form for adding info that includes canopies, rigs (even velcro/pin), wing-loading if necessary, also BASE experience AND skydiving experience, however to lose the personal info in the entries would de-humanize a lot of people on that list, several of whom were my friends. I would be totally against that....

If you are worried about showing up on the list someday send Nick a letter - when you go in you can appear as 'unknown' or 'name withheld' as some people already are.

The list should stay!

PS some at the bottom of the list are VERY positive about people who died in car accidents/skydiving accidents but who had very positive lives!

Good to chat with you.....my crazy, dental hygenically challenged friend!!!
__________________________________________________

And Jason

if you leak to the NPS that BASE-jumpers never brush their teeth - we'll never get invited anywhere!!!

The 'man' can take any comment and twist it around how he wish....

Could you post the incident form here? Lets get some discussion going on what would be needed in addition to the standerd info due to the unique factors of BASE.

I've recently started assisting in some Skydiving Fatality reporting and I've got some ideas based off the experiences I've already had that might make this a much better tool while still allowing for the very personal touch that the BASE List has always had.

>>Maybe cleaning up the fatality list so that it's not so dark would be a good start. Remove the red 85 at the top.

Hi Jason,

Yes, it does looks dark. The Fatality List has its roots when the prevailing wisdom in BASE is, "make death your friend, or else it becomes your enemy." Skydivers and non-jumpers scolded us for having a death wish, and that we'd all get "our due" in time. So being a rebellious lot we flew the Jolly Roger right in their faces. We decorated our rigs with skulls and bones, and everything we owned is black in color. We giggled when we were scared, and chuckled at the near misses of our friends. We did everything we could to get our minds away from the fact we really didn't know what we are doing. This is the time when Moe Viletto observed, "death is an educational tool." So that's why the List looks as it does. Since you are questioning it, I can only assume it's the beginning of a generational sea change coming to BASE jumping and okay, that's fair enough.

>>Turn it into more of an informative, educational tool. Heck, include commentary on "how this accident could have been prevented".<<

You weren't around during the accident wars back in the day. Early BASE magazines, like BASELINE, The BASE Gazette, printed accident reports. They copied the format from PARACHUTIST and included a section called "conclusions." It turned they couldn't correctly discern what happened or what could have been done better from afar. Next month's magazine would always contain an angry letter from the offended jumper and usually began, "Hello, You Fu#king Boneheads."

There are many lost friendships and a few fistfights because of that. On the List, except when the cause of death is blatantly obvious, I want the reader to draw their own conclusions. In my magazine, the Fixed Object Journal, I only printed accident reports from the jumpers involved. I've tried where possible to do the same thing on the List. The gist of the fatality reports, while edited by me, are basically what people send in.

It would be a tremendous amount of work, but I could put a happy face on the List, or at least make it look more clinical. But, then it’s a matter of forsaking a part of BASE jumping history, like hiding our crazy aunt down in the basement, and for what? Certainly not to appease the powers that be . . .

NickD
BASE 194

"Most" of us have a great amount of respect and appreciation for both Jason and Nick as friends and leaders who have contributed great things to our sport. This is a very delicate subject that touches on personal, ethical, and educational ideals that seem to be getting blurred into one "list".

Memorializing our friends and comrades who have lost their lives pursuing the sport we all love is appropriate, and providing the detail of each incident is invaluable to both experienced jumpers and newcomers to our sport, but should this be done in one list?

To Jason’s point, as he and others pursue the progression of legal BASE in the US, occasionally the "BASE fatality list" is used as a tool to exaggerate the dangers of our sport. Don’t give agencies like the NPS tools to work against this progression, or at least force those who choose to do this cross some moral threshold by desecrating the kind memories of our comrades for some political gain by keeping a "public" list that memorializes the person not the incident without the "detail" of where and how.

Statistically BASE may be of the more dangerous sports and the value to the BASE community of each "incident report" is unquestioned but might be better suited for more private BASE forums.

The public version could be a memorial to the individual and their accomplishments in life not the "statistics" associated with their death. This would serve as a kind memorial to our comrades and still provide the "warning" to BASE newcomers without providing the unnecessary detail to others who would use it against us...or in a worse case scenario used against the person and/or their family (insurance, bad press, etc).

I guess I am suggesting two lists:

Keep the BASE Fatilty list as a "BASE Incident Report List" but store this in a more private forum.

Create a public "BASE Memorial" that memorializes the individuals as honored brethren not just statistics to learn something from.

The detail associated with each death could be placed in the "BASE Incident Report List" while the "BASE Memorial" could remain public with a vague comment the accident but focus on who the person was in life and their accomplishments.

At a minimum, maybe add a better introduction to the "BASE Fatality List" explaining why this list exists and possibly remove the "reaper" and "bloody number". Not that I care about sugar coating anything and I am a pretty big fan of skulls and such but that is my choice not a defacto catorgization.

This is obviously very "religious" debate (figuratively). Regardless of any change, I thank Nick for keeping this list for us.

Donk

PS: Nick PM me when you get a chance,

Before I posted this, I knew that many of you would disagree with me. But what I also knew was that new ideas may be offered that could make things better. Discussions like this can be very healthy for the base community. Hopefully, some of these new ideas can be implemented.

Thanks.

PS. Truckerbase: The Alliance of Backcountry Parachutists is a non-profit organization that I'm involved with and we're working to gain fair and equal access to National Parks. The 10+ board members, including myself, HAVE NO COMMERCIAL INTERESTS in this. We're simply working hard for YOU so that YOU can have more places to jump. I have put more hours into the ABP in the last three months than you can imagine. So I take offense to your routine illogical and poorly thought out insinuations that I have any commercial interests. And to the hard working folks who sell BASE videos or organize commercial events - MORE POWER TO YOU. Truckerbase, if you have a problem with commercial events, you can always stay home. Cya.

I am not a base jumper so just my opinion on this for what it's worth.

When I first stumbled across the list I found a friend of mine there. I sent you a photo of her and you added it to her entry in the list. I hope some one looking through that list and seeing the photos of people there will connect with the human side and not just the data involved in each incident.

I hope that by reading this list and connecting to those people involved, that people will learn to be be safer and that enjoyment of this exciting aspect of the sport parchuting world will be enhanced.

Keep the list. It's a great memorial. It's an educational thing.

It serves a purpose.

Bell. One. You posted this thread with the intent to pressure Nick into complying with your individual interests and demands, because private emails met with a true base jumpers obstinate individual rebellion (yah Nick)

Two. You chose now to do so because you believe his position in the community is weakened because of his recent "stunt" for posting a suicide "gag" online, an act of "personality" and "character" which is an established
marine litany. Im an ex Navy wartime active duty vet, and I know it even if you dont. (Hoo RAH)

Three. You post your comments on a public website which is open to all to read, law enforcement, rangers, public, AND media, RIDICULOU
SLY suggesting we "cover up", "hide", "distort","lie" and "pretty up" ourselves from now on to better our public corporate image so we look better to the rangers and politics of the very system we get enough of already on a nine to five basis. We should wear suits and ties and not cuss any more to please your conception of gaining an extra legal object or two, huh?

Sotto Voce (stage whisper); (in front of the media, rangers, etc) "ok, everyone quit saying anyone dies or gets hurt or does illegal jumps anymore ok. Forget the list and we'll all wear smiley face shirts..." Dude the media is sitting right there listening to you. Are you on something? The media just did what everyone else did...copy paste save. Now the media has the list for reference....It shows we have no integrity, and are willing to sell out to the rangers and to the establishment...To change who we are to please them. Fuck that.

Look, jason bell has been doing this for a long time. The fact is jason bell wont do illegal jumps anymore, hence this focus on legal jumps.
But Bell (and the board) have forgotten what base jumping is all about, now and historically. Jolly Roger indeed. Change our stripes for a chance to be on tv? Please.

And Bell. Operating a for profit website selling pictures and videos, and t shirts and mugs and personal appearances, and running a number of base events or adverts through the same website is a commercial interest. And if youre trying to convince me that you or the board will not have commercial license and opportunity at and with and during legal events opened or developed or administered by you and/or others, you are naive. You"ll own no rights at those events? Charge no concessions? Will the base jumpers have paid slots and free access? Will there be a charge for catwalk access? Will you have a cut?

Oh, and by the way, Bell.

I dont need you or legal events to make a base jump....And I dont need your permission or the board's.

DING DING!!!

Dont let bell push you around, Nick...

edit: see my post below ~TA

I am a new skydiver...with the sole goal of skydiving being a stepping stone to BASE. When I found dz.com, I read around and found the BASE threads. And eventually "nick's list". I read the list, each and every person. And there are valuable lessons to be learned.

Looking at that list, one theme strikes me immediately. Complacency = death. Lots of very experienced people have passed away due to improper or non-existent gear checks, not checking the exit point properely etc.

Another theme becomes clear as well. BASE is not skydiving. Exits are different, and MUCH more important. You can have 10,000 skydives, but if exit with bad position off a fixed object, you're in a world of hurt.

I think I will read the list before any day of BASE jumping, so as to try not to fall victim to the same avoidable mistakes other, much more experienced jumpers have made in the past.

As for the list discouraging new jumpers. If that list scares them away, they probably shouldn't be doing it anyways.

Also of notice, I SCUBA dive a lot. I receive two monthly publications: DAN's Alert Diver, and Scuba Diver mag. Every issue, each has a "screw up" section. DAN calls it "Incident Insights". Scuba Diver calls it "Lessons for Life". In each, a slight lead up to the incident is given, including age, experience, currency and medical conditions(as you may know, medical stuff is very important to diving safety). Then a blurb on what happened. Followed by what could have been changed to avoid the incident. More often than not, the subject of the story has deceased, or suffered severe injuries. It is not morbid. It is not frowned upon. It is a valuable teaching tool.

Your list should stay

Yo Jason, I tried to PM yu. on both boards. shoot me an email address please.
take care,
space

Dennis Parrotte, your posts reak with inaccurate facts, misconceptions, and your own insecurities in life as well your job. So, no need for me to return fire.....

CYA!

Yo Jase, be a diplomat please. don´t fark your self by dissing others. you are doing good stuff. keep it up.
There is a link to fatalites on DZ com also.
thinky,
I am only trying to help.
take care,
space

Jason,

Two things:


A. Except for the general aspersions he cast on your character--with which I do not agree--I thought his assessment to be eloquently and accurately stated.

B. The quote up above is perfectly consonant with your statement:


...and then you blew it...


I don't call that "returning fire." I call it a cheap shot.

When I consider the cheap shots I've fired off in my lifetime, they were all the result of my refusal to back down when I was wrong.

Maybe we're different. Then again, maybe not.

I call them like I see them. Trust me, I've nothing to lose. BASE jumping is a very small part of my life.

This thread is about the fatality list, so if anyone cares to continue that discussion, feel free. I still have the opinion that the list needs to be modified.

RhondaLea: Thanks for the analysis, but you obviously didn't read it like I did. Dennis posts nothing but personal attacks.

Well said, your posts show real insight.

Will

PS Nick leave the list as it is please (I'd like to make the bottom one in about 50 years time )

Keep the list in the light and the sport in the dark, which is where it belongs.

Jason, I think the list has it's place right where it is. Every single activity in the world has a list: Member Lists, Success Lists, and Fatality Lists. All of these lists are useful for reflection and research. Keeping a fatality list, in my opinion, at the very least will open some eyes for those that are interested in that side of the story. If not then it is a very one sided story and those that don't care can have a great BASE jumping career. If the NPS and other organizations are only looking at the list for guidance for the sport then there opinion is one sided and nullified at that.

The lists possess an awareness that can only be provided by it’s presence publicly. I am glad there are these lists around. I reflect on many lists and just because it brings extreme awareness doesn't mean it's a malign thing, in my opinion. Safe jumps man…..Matt

Thanks. I appreciate the kind response, but in truth, the poster who evidences the most insight here--gently but eloquently, and with true affection for all concerned--is Karen. I wish we all had heeded her message.

rl

If a person is looking at the list as detrimental from a business perspective, they would be better served by incorporating a high quality risk management strategy in any event they are organising.

Pretending that accidents do not happen and hiding data will not come across as positive when people consider your case.

They could use the list as data for their "business plan". They could say something along the lines of "This is what acutally happens (show list), this is how my organisation is managing the risk to ensure it does not happen".

If an organisation is using the list to prevent something from happening, use the same logic against them. i.e. NP say that people die BASE jumping, hence it should not be allowed. You say, rangers and many plants and animals die during "controlled burning", hence, by following the same democratic process we should come to a similar decision. Animals kill people, hence we should not be allowed near them. People die in the wilderness due to exposire resulting from poor planning, hence we should not allow people in the wilderness. etc. If they do not give specific reasons for banning an activity (it's happend here in Oz), their decision should be challenged. Its a constitutional right isn't it.

Good luck with it all.

Well, I don't have all that many different objects, but I do have more than one of each type and do consider myself a BASE jumper.

I vote, keep the list. It is fine just as it is, or with any changes Nick wants to make - its his list until he wants to close it or pass it on.

If you are not ready to die, you shouldn't be BASE jumping. This list helps people decide if their Risk to Fun Ratio is appropriate.

Crap, the List is both a memorial and a warning, it helps us remember friends who have passed and to warn us not to fu(k up the same way. It is also the unbiased truth...

“Truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but, in the end, there it is.”
Sir Winston Churchill

Donk,

What about people who are not yet part of the "BASE community" but are considering BASE? I really think they ought to have access to the list.

Dennis,

You do make some excellent points.

But you are sabotaging your own arguments by slinging a bunch of nasty pejoratives around in the midst of them.

I'm going to clean that post up a bit.

Consider this your only warning. We need to be able to discuss important topics without resorting to personal epithets.

>>Although I understand your goal, I think you might consider that burying the facts is abhorrent to ethical people. I know you well enough to know you are ethical, so I can't figure out where you came up with this harebrained idea. Further, I think making an issue of what you allege to be Nick's obsession with death calls for an apology from you to him. But that's just my opinion, and you can do whatever you want. Just remember, though, that the webpage you propose to impose strictures on belongs to Nick, and he, like you, can do whatever he wants, no matter what public pressure you bring to bear. If it comes to a vote, then mine is that the webpage should remain as it is or as Nick may choose--without undue interference--to make it in the future. Although it now serves as an educational tool, it remains a memorial to those who have gone before. It would be a terrible thing for any of them to be forgotten.

rl <<

Hello r/l,

You are such a good writer, I couldn't find anywhere in the above to snip anything . . .

Nick
X

>>Keep the list in the light and the sport in the dark, which is where it belongs.<<

That's a Nugget . . .

NickD
BASE 194

The attached form is about 5 years old. It was co-developed between myself & DW. It is probably the same as some of the manufacturers have published too. Logically, they should be similar if we are asking the right questions.

It needs updating but served reasonably well in its time.

If you have any suggestions, feel free to email me.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

Sure does explain the fact that you put a little thought into what it is you are doing... seriously.

Huh?
IF you say that BASE is a small peice of your life then i guess your saying that i aint into BASE.

Jason,your working alot in the name of BASE and i do appritiate it.But saying that BASE is a small part of your life aint true..

No one ask you to reconsidder your oppinions,i want you to have your oppinion ans long im alowed to have mine aswell...
Just happen that most in here think the list is fine as it is.. sometimes you gotta face that you cant win each time..
Rather find a new thing that can be made in a better place serving the hole comunity(please rember it aint only on your side of the pond...).

Keep up your good work Jason i dont agree whith you about removing or even modify the list but i still think your doing a great job

First I would like to say I am sorry for intruding as I do not jump base.

I would just like to say that I think the job Nick is doing with the list is great. It is a pretty grim task I am guessing and I am glad that there is a way to learn from past mistakes. I would hope if I did something 'new' that others could learn from it and not have to suffer the same fate.

I think the list is organised, however I believe a few changes could make a big difference to how it is read by the general wuffo public. Also I am aware we do not want to make it too clinical or statistical as it can be in poor taste, so below is just brain farts do not take them seriously.

Some suggestions include:
* organising it into years/countries. (make it clear so they can compare to other sports etc..)
* perhaps give year and then the number (or two numbers) when/if numbering
* Seperate the analysis from the tribute.
* place people who have passed away not jumping as a different page.

I do think the way the dz.com list is organised is a good example and perhaps hh can add a base list that nick can maintain. And it does appear to be easy to maintain while keeping it too the point and hence making it easy for journos to follow and hence giving them less excuses to spew bullshit.

Unfortunately statics can be very helpful to helping your cause as much as it can hurt it. For example (i do not know the real stats) x number of incidents had factors that could be related to NPS enforcement (using b gear, bad weather, night jumps etc..). Trying to avoid jinxing, however I was suprised when I broke down the incidents from 2004 and compared it to other years.

But I am just refering to the list being public and then being used by journalists. They will do anything to sell a story and they appear to be lazy so the clearer the list is to read the more accurate you will appear in the press imho.

When I started this thread, I did so with good intentions. I wanted to express my opinion on the list, as well as gain insight toward what others think. If anything, I knew that good ideas may result from healthy discussion. Maybe the title of the thread should have been "Modify" rather than "Remove" the list. Maybe I should have just asked for opinions on the subject. I guess I think differently than most of you and my personality doesn't always permit me to suppress my opinions (good or bad).

That being said, I apologize to Nick if my post came off incorrectly, as this was not my intention. Rhondalea and Karen, you are both wonderful people with great insight. Keep up the good work. Dennis, we are both base jumpers and bickering only serves to bring us both down. I apologize for my reactionary posts.

Cya all at the exit point.

no reasson to sorry,its an open forum,people who dont want to listen or speak to skydivers has a place called Blinc were (mostly)only BASEjumpers post.

you already have dates on the list,locations are also named many times,which can be hard for thouse legal sites like Norway as people travel there to jump a big legal thing.. i cant see how you can compare that to other sports..

its already made so #1 at the list were #1 whith the early year,the latest has the oldest date.

i see the idea in that BUT it effect me more as i look at a pic while reading,that way my emotions front each other and its not just somthing in a tekst it really happened to the person im reading about.

Perhaps a database telling which reasson people died and how to prevent it as another side could be great.

If you mean inside the site but under another category i do agree,could be like:

Frontpage telling about BASE,perhaps random pics of our fallen brother and sisters.There should be a menu were you could navigate like:
The list
passed away outside the sport
conclusion-the database running side way
Contact to Nick,plus Nick storry

Just an idea not even sure i like it my self it just pop´d up..(damit i get ideas,now i can be evrywere)

flame away

ps. i do belive that Nick does a great job,i hope he will keep doing so

MT's spreadsheet does a good job of summarizing the incidents by type. It's easy to tweak the categories for any set of data you are trying to extract. I've been trying to keep my copy of it updated. I wonder if a downloadable, current version of it might not be a good thing to keep somewhere?

I don't know that putting the List on DZ.com is the best idea. I kind of like it having it's own, independent life.

IF the site should move from weres it now,i deafently think it belongs on BLINC,nothing against DZ.com BUT the list deafenly belongs to a place were most BASE jumpers will have a look anyway..And even as dz.com is a nice place many online BASEjumpers dont visit here aswell,but i dont know any online BASEjumpers who dont visit BLINC..just a thourght..


You could always make a directly link from here(after arrengement whith Mick)

I know of many, actually.

As I said before, I like it having it's own, independent place. I think that Nick is the correct keeper of the list, and I don't think it ought to end up attached to any other site.

i think your right

No apology to me is necessary, Jason. I hadnt realized to what degree my instinctive and historical dislike of you had permeated my thinking. Tom corrected this for me here. It wont be necessary again in the future. My apologies for unconsciously wandering into the personal and being a zealot.

And I imagine having a pregnant wife nearing term with your first child is a stressful and scary time for a young couple. The baby will be fine and if she's half her parents quality she'll do well. Jennifer will be fine and you'll make a great dad. Im sure everyone wishes the three of you the very best.

PS. Its not too late to name the baby Thomasina or Nickoletta.

Denise would just be over the top, man, stop it....

I've spent all day trying to write a post for this thread, and every attempt has turned into babble. I suspect that this one will too, because the issue is so emotionally charged for me.

What I'd really like to say to you right now, Jason, would just create a minor ruckus in some circles, so I'll save it for email. I can allude to it, however, by saying that the reason I have liked you from the beginning of our acquaintance, in spite of the impediment , is that you are one of those rare individuals who lives an examined life. You also have the intelligence and integrity to look beyond your self-interest. To know you is a blessing.

Now comes the babble, so y'all might just want to stop reading right about here, even if I feel compelled to keep writing something I'll be sorry for later.

Someone commented up above that he knows two people on The List. (I started this as a "reply to" and changed my mind, because I don't want you to blame him for getting me going.)

It got me to thinking, so I loaded The List and started counting. In the top half, I have four friends and two acquaintances.

In the bottom half, I have four--soon to be five when Nick adds Josh--and the painful awareness of one missing. (Aaron Britton should be on the list, Nick. Ask Tree.)

So anyway...

I read something once, so long ago I don't even remember the tradition from which it originates:

"I will speak your name."

Parting words in a time when it was never certain that travelling companions would meet again. A promise that, no matter what, one would not be forgotten.

I believe that the human spirit is eternal, but in the here and now, the only immortality that any of us is given lies in the memories of those who love us.

In the last ten years, at least thirty people for whom I cared have died. In a way, it makes perfect sense--we're talking about people who throw themselves out of airplanes and off fixed objects, after all. Other times, though, it feels like my own personal tsunami. I'm sure many of you can relate.

For nearly three years after his death, I carried in my purse the email Thor Alex sent me right after he was released from a NYC jail. When I remembered him and was sad, then I could hold his letter in my hands and read his words. It was a tangible reminder of his existence, and it was a comfort to me. I once shared it with another of his friends and watched it bring tears to his eyes. It was a comfort to him too.

For a long time after we met, Dr. Death and I stayed in touch, right up until I opted out and stopped answering my email, my phone...I wasn't home to anyone. (If you're really reading this and you want to know how dire can be the consequences of falling out of touch, I am an object lesson.) Then Lee died, and Nik was the only person in the world I really wanted to talk to. To this day, I carry the last email he wrote to me. Just knowing it is there to read is a comfort to me.

The problem is that to think of them, remember them, speak of them all the time is a disservice to those still living. So...

I don't know if The List is educational except to the extent it tells us that BASE can and will kill you, sometimes even if you do everything right. Consider that all the incident reports in Parachutist have had little effect on the overall skydiving fatality rate--even if the proximate cause of death has changed substantially over the years. But if The List persuades even one person that it can happen to him, that he may not be the exception, and that he should prepare for the very real possibility of dying, then it is education enough.

But given that The List just puts a human face on what should be patently obvious, what is more important to me than anything is that those who have gone before are remembered, that the only true immortality they can have in this life is accorded to them. I do not want them to be forgotten, any of them. For example, I never knew Theresa Tran, but I remember when she died. I remember how much her friends loved her and their online outpouring of grief. I want her to be remembered. I want her to live forever in the hearts and minds of all those who come after, and it is this purpose that The List serves perfectly...

...that, and that it comforts me.

rl

One of the few posts I've read in its entirety in this thread. And I'm glad I did.

Very nicely said. It should be the last word on this subject.
Time for a lock Tom??

Nick

I think the list has a number of the aforementioned benefits e.g educational, memorial etc. However the picture of the reaper cheapens it and detracts from what it may offer. I concur with the suggestion to make it more of a collection of incident reports along with recommendations. The increased work may require additional resourcing. That aside, I think the list existing is better than a blackhole of information.

cya

You can't ask for a lock just because the poster happens to agree with your views. That's "last-word-ism".

If that's a logical fallacy, it's a new one on me.

What else did you want to discuss that has not yet been covered, o most venerable smartass troublemaker?

I can ask for whatever I want, just as you can ask for it not to be locked because it doesn't agree with your views. It doesn't mean we'll get it though now does it?

word

If the site was set up to propagate information to the worldwide BASE community, password protecting it becomes a logistical nightmare and kind of defeats the purpose. Password protecting the site is a big move and how do you discern who is legit and who isn't?

Is there anyway to remove the site's listing from the search engines or limit the sites visibility to search engines? People can always track it down by asking here/blinc/base-forums i.e. still publicly available, but not served out on a platter for all to see.

If someone’s determined to find it, they will, but lessening its visibility might just stop a few of the media scavengers who’ve got a tight deadline to meet…

I pray we never end up on the list, we had too many aussies join the list last year

It was the assumption that there can be a "last word" on this topic (or any topic), which bothered me.

You're open minded, so I'm surprised you disagree.

First I would like to thank you for replying to my thread.

I am aware of blinc and read as much as I can about BASE. I just know how some people can react to an outsider discussing how those who have passed away should be remembered.

In regards to breaking the list into years. I have read the list many times over in the past year and understand most of the lingo so I can follow it relatively easily. But I can see how a whuffo reporter could misrepresent the fact with the 30sec they spend looking at it. The easier it is to read the more educated they will be. Again I do not have any answers but I do think this is a factor of how the list is refered to by the public.

I like your idea of a front page. I did not know how to organise it but when you see a large list of people who have died it is easy to mistake they have all died because of BASE. Again misrepresenting the group.

Originally I did not want to suggest having the analysis and the tribute on a seperate site because it does make it more inpersonal and hence they become numbers. However this would be the easiest way to ensure both the learning and the remembering is done to the best extent. I agree that it is good to have nicks work as being something independent.

Keep it up Nick.

The truth will set you/us free.

Much respect for your ongoing efforts.

I'm not so open-minded as you might imagine, but in this case, I wonder what part of what I wrote led you to the conclusion that I disagree?

As for me, everything else I have to say on the subject belongs in email, which is where I intend to keep it, barring some bizarre turn of the thread.

rl

>>3 decades, hundreds of thousands of successful jumps, 85 deaths????; One plane crash and you wipe out over 300 people in one second.<<

That's a Nugget . . .

NickD
BASE 194

I think the list helps the BASE community more than it harms.
"They" will always think we're Sharkfvckers anyway.
Remembering your friends ( and sometimes their mistakes and misfortune) is important.
If you want to do your part to help the BASE community,Don't die doing a BASE jump and increas the little red #.
Please keep the list Nick
~J

hi nick, keep the list updated, please.
we also collect skydive fatalities in a list to learn from the mistakes and improve our safety. three decades of jumping and 85 killed jumpers? not to be misunderstood, every single one of these was too much and we all would be happy if they could be still alive.
but 85 in thirty years is very low (if I think about the "experimental-status" in the early years).
how many skydivers died in the early years of jumping out of planes? got this point?
not so long ago, the base guys were jumping regular skydiving gear, round canopies or modified 7cells. less knowledge in judging the meteorological and/or site specific conditions were not so uncommon.
this list is about to show that our sport IS dangerous and not a new lifestyle-adventure.
this list is about to keep our eyes open and to be under alert in every jump.
this list is about to show what happens, not more but also nothing less.
let us all keep working, that this list will disappear by itself.
if we all could mange to get the fatalities to zero, this list will not longer make sense.
this would be the only reason for me to take it away.
until then: keep it, please.

I posted this on BLiNC

In my eyes the list as many benefits. It is educational on how people have died. It is a memory to people. It is a way to show prospective new jumpers that deaths are not just numbers but are actual people - people that we know. Unlike the 100's of skydivers that have died and have been forgotten except by those close to them, this list remembers each and everyone and allows their memory to be carried on to future generations. It is very personal for each fatality and I for one beleive that it should be kept that way. To get rid of it is an insult to the fallen.

As soldiers are remembered by name for deaths in battles on the many many many monuments around the UK and the world, so should we remember by name the brothers that have fallen in our battle against gravity, a battle we will never win, but just hope for a stalemate each and everytime.


I guess it covers alot said here already, but thought I would throw my 2 pennies in

I think Nick summed it up quite nicely with "No one can hurt us with the truth.".

It is what it is. There's nothing to hide. I also agree that password protecting the site really won't deter the determined, and quite frankly I'm a big believer in open access to information.

I'm certain The List has saved many, many lives with the lessons learned within. It may have also deterred those who may not have been a good fit with the sport from taking it up.

I know I personally read and and every one of those entries at least 3 times before taking this sport up. I can't tell you how many times we analyze a situation and hearken back to an entry which made us reconsider.

The site is invaluable for newbies and veterans alike. I think it needs to stay up. It does far more good than harm.

Practiced responsibly, I think BASE is a sport that is no more dangerous than many of the other extreme sports currently permitted in our National Parks. Free soloing? Extreme mountain biking? Rope jumping? Hellloooo???

Still, like those other sports, this is a sport where you can do everything right and still die. It IS a dangerous sport, let's not kid ourselves. But so are many other things that are socially accepted (Indy car racing?). I think it's patently unfair that some taxpayers are allowed to practice their socially-accepted dangerous sport in OUR National Parks while we are not. I think that's the real issue.... not the existences of the list.

And if the NPS uses that to deny us access to our National Parks, then really this whole process was nothing but a charade.

Zennie I have to agree with most everything you say. The only thing I have an issue with is this:


Jump Rope? You can't be throwing jump rope in with these other sports. I mean really! It's just a couple people twirling a rope while someone jumps in the middle of it! I can't see the danger in that. You're not even talking about double dutch here. Next thing you know the government is going to start making extreme jump ropers wear helmets and shit. Jeeze dude, be a little more careful with what you say online. You don't want a bunch of pissed off third graders kicking in your door one night. Trust me. I know this from experience.

Shannon, shannon, shannon.... oh man...

That argument may be a double edged sword. The NPS has made various attempts to prohibit and/or restrict climbing and rope jumping. I'd hate to see that argument get turned around and used against those folks.

Well, I think any doubts Nick had about keeping the list have now been completely removed. In taking what was a private conversation public, Jason has probably galvinised his stand.

Nick, thanks for your tireless work on the list. Apart from being an exremely eye-opening awareness builder it's also a very important tribute on a personal level for me. Australia has nothing to gain by it's removal.

g.

Yeah, I understand it can cut both ways. But it's still fundamentally an issue of fairness and equal access.

I think we all agree that climbers, bikers, BASE jumpers and rope jumpers should have the right to practice their chosen activity in our public parks. If the NPS decided to even-handedly apply policy by prohibiting all of those activities, they'd be stirring up one heckuva PR hornet's nest.

Can you imagine all of us united? They'd be insane to take on the entire parachuting, climbing and biking communities.

Politically (and ethically, IMHO) it would be MUCH more palatable to open access rather than shut it off.

While it would be nice to see us united with the climbers (and there are more than enough examples of why we should be), I just don't see it happening. Mainly because the climbers already have access - so they've nothing much to gain (and perhaps everything to lose) through an alliance with us. Have you read some of the whuffo responses (sorry tom - I know you don't like that moniker but it exactly describes the mentality of some of those folks) on Jason's threads posted over on the geotopo site?? For the most part I think the resident hardmen understand, but there're an awful lot of weekend wall warriors out there who don't or won't (I'm talking about base as an acceptable means of descent as opposed to rapping or otherwise - or simply as a sport standing alone) accept that BASE and climbing go together like milk and honey. Realize that I'm not overlooking all of the folks we know who DO understand the relationship - it's just that an overwhelming majority don't.

Gardner

Call me morbid, but I've read that list more than once, and I am convinced that it helped keep me out of BASE.

That, and the fact that my wife would kill me if I did a BASE jump, causing me to end up on either the top or the bottom part of the list...

What's strange though is that I read through all the skydiving fatalities before getting back into skydiving after a 10 year break, and this didn't stop me from skydiving. Maybe this is because the BASE fatality list is more 'personal', but I don't have a really good explanation for that.

I have at least a partial explanation... BASE is really scary.

It's easy to picture someone *not* BASE jumping for that reason alone.

The list is what it is. I know people in both categories. I think about them sometimes, especially when standing atop of something not so high.

i know this is way off topic.. but it has come up repeatedly and ive heard of it elsewhere... where can i get more information about rope-jumping... google just turns up jumprope/skipping kidstuff...
maybe pm or new thread>?

I would have to say i have read it more than a few tiimes as it gives you alot of information about something that is not normal. I think that if they did do a list liike thiis iin skydiving maybe so many people would not hammer in....

What kind of info are you looking for? There are some folks on this forum with experience rope jumping, but as far as I know there are no formal training programs available, and very little written information.

Yes. Aaron Britton. RIP.

rope jumping is something that I have done a few times. the best place to get info on this type of thing would be to talk to climbers. find a local rock climbing gym and get to know some people there. they would now how to point you in the right direction. however it is so much easier to base,........alot less gear and less time to set up. if you are doing this in a place without permission, sometimes it can be very dificult to set everything up make your jump and retreive your gear without anybody noticing. just something to think about

Talk to Calvin19....... he's a subterminal to terminal-rope-freak. He's got it together. He can probably point you in the right direction.

To put BASE in some kind of perspective

2000 people ascended Mount Everest and 179 died on the way. 130 climbers have summited Annapurna, while 53 have died.
http://www.mounteverest.net/...eriesSep242003.shtml

600 people died scuba diving in caves in Florida, Mexico and Caribbean http://www.smartdivers.com/cavediving.html

The problem is that jumping of a cliff, bridge, or a building has a clear suicidal image in our society, despite being a rare way of committing it.

Freinds-

-Its incredible what one can get away with in this sport... Its disgusting how the simplest mistake can kill you so quicklly. PAY ATTENTION-
-C. Hecker

We participate in a sport where it is kinda hard to learn from your own mistakes.

(a broad statement, i know but think about it)

i'm not one for censorship either. Ever.
I would never turn anybody from this sport, especially the ones who, like me, are enthusiastic about it.
I would, however, like to see people who research it and decide on there own that BASE is not for them. I dont think anybody should lie, or keep from the public, that this is a dangerous thing to do, maybe not as dangerous as the public sees it already, but still a big decision to make.

keep it.

girlfalldown...
Jump... Rope... Jump...
HA HA HA!... i'm sure you got straightened out.
cheers, maybe join us on our playground sometime.

big sigh...
hey, some of those kids on the playground jump ropeing got smart and started using 2 ropes,
their mothers even make them wear helmets.
sounds a lot like our progression...
off topic, im done.

why not simply take the grim reaper aura out of it - thats the problem part in my opinion. could still be concise and educational.

Isn't it kind of hard to remove the "grim reaper" aura from a list of the dead? No offense to those that have past or friends and family...

Doesn't Parachutist post a fatality List every Year? What about that Jason? Nobody seems to have a problem with that particular list, which lists 20-35 fatalities a year, as opposed to 85 over the life of the entire sport.
321CYA
Sitflybaseboy

Mark, as mentioned in my original post more than one month ago, my main beef with the list is that it is "made morbidly available to the media". And in the last month, there was yet another reporter who referenced the current death count in his anti-BASE story about the Canadian building incident. The list is definately valuable to jumpers, but it only serves to weaken our image because it is often misused by the media.

Media misuses these fatalities on both sides of the coin and most likely always will due to the nature of the sports of skydiving and base jumping. Until skydiving and base jumping are part of gym class curriculum (tounge in cheek as they never will) they will always be considered extreme sports and sensationalized from the media.

I think the importance of the fatality list both in skydiving and base jumping to jumpers far outweighs the attention it may get from media. I for one could care less about the bullshit media prints about both sports because I know they never a) have all the facts and b) couldn't disseminate those facts even if they had them anyhow given the outside nature of the media. More times than not they have no clue about the circumstances behind these incidents - but just like all other media output, they are going to print what sells more than what is true.

The "best foot forward" idea was discounted years ago in skydiving. Drop zones have been pro-active in dealing with the media since the early 80's when PARACHUTIST began running articles on the subject. However, skydivers are still misunderstood by the media and they have more access issues than ever. In fact, you can say over the years the best thing for the image of skydiving was the advent of BASE jumping. In articles about BASE jumping, where skydiving is cited as a way to explain it, skydiving comes off like the more sane activity.

Something I think lost on more recent BASE jumpers is the fact we thumbed our noses at authority a long time ago. It's a founding principal of our sport. As soon as we bargain for access we must make promises in return, promises no single BASE jumper has the right to make on behalf of the rest of us.

I can't help but get the feeling that because some don't favor illegal jumps they're looking to change the very nature of the sport. Jean Boenish (without Carl to guide her) tried to impose "her own" ideas of what BASE jumping should be and finally she left the sport frustrated.

Will the day come when an illegal BASE jump gone wrong in Nevada reflects negatively on our year round access at Bridge Day? Will that Nevada jumper be ostracized by the BASE community? When that days comes shut the lights and lock the door as BASE jumping as we know it is finished.

The organization of Bridge Day is the best it's ever been. The people who do that organizing are referred to as "leaders of the sport" by the media. But the truth is they aren't, no one is. I'm really not the rabble rouser I sound like here and I'm willing to play ball up to a point. But we pass that point by hiding the truth.

Something unseen is the amount of contact I've gotten over the years from people outside the sport. People who say they understand more about BASE then before. These people get more from the List than the distracters who see it only as the "death list." The List shows our human side, it shows we care about our past, and it shows we mourn our losses.

The only way BASE jumpers would ever get the media into their corner is the same way the government has done it. We have to get our buddies to start purchasing media empires. If Jason asked me to remove the List while he was trying to purchase FOX news I might accommodate him . . .

The BASE Fatality List will stay up as long as I can manage it.

When the time comes when I can't do it anymore I will pass the job onto someone who'll promise to do the same. To those who don't like it I say find a way to use it to your advantage.

NickD
BASE 194

Glad to see yuo back Nick!!! Hope you are feeling well....All the best Chris

Careful about your assumptions there. There is a BASE course at a TF campus and while it doesn't involve jumping that's not beyond possibility.

I'm very careful about what's in the College of Southern Idaho curriculum.

However, there has been a high school BASE club in Boise (still is, I believe) that took high school students for actual jumps here.

But we most likely could all agree that insurance will prevent BASE from ever becoming regular in gym class no? After all - show me a gym class that uses atrampoline anymore due to the litigation suits brought against schools in the 80s. Come on people, playing devils advocate in this instance is just not realistic and I think you all know that...

This is quite off-topic from this thread, but if universities are subsidizing skydiving clubs, it seems they are just a liable as if it was part of their curriculum.

True true - perhaps another thread altogether... My bad for getting off topic.

I agree with you, but is the skydiving fatality list not made "morbidly available" as well? The media will ultimately find out anyway, and usually tell the whole story out of context. When I read a reporters story, it usually doesn't make since, but when I read Nick's page, the stories seem to make alot more since.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing on the subject, I'm just saying with the advent of high speed media, the world will eventually find out one way or another. Why not hear it from a person who actually has an idea of what really happened, and has some basic knowledge of BASE.
I don't really know the solution, but censorship of Nick's List is definitely not the solution.
321CYA
Sitflybaseboy

Wow =), that was the most interesting 25 minutes I have had in a long time.

"Something I think lost on more recent BASE jumpers is the fact we thumbed our noses at authority a long time ago. It's a founding principal of our sport."

This is why you jump? This is the spirit that new jumpers have lost. How depressing, I sure hope the founding principal is more then sticking it to authority.

Jason

http://www.backcountryparachutists.org
--Fair and Equal Access--

I think most understood what I meant . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Somehow I think you missed the point, and in so doing, you changed the entire meaning of what Nick wrote.

I don't like it when someone takes me out of context and recasts my words. For that matter, I do not know anyone who does, so I don't expect that Nick appreciates it very much either.

rl

Edited for clarity, although I'm not certain it matters.

I dunno. Even pulled out of context, I get what Nick was saying.

BASE culture is pretty complex. It's definitely got a certain amount of nose-thumbing in it. There's lots of other stuff, too, but I'm pretty sure that's why Nick said it was a founding principle, not the founding principle.

I understood =) Completely...

I am an firm supporter of shared information. Keep the list up.

Jason

The more I think about this the more I think the list should stay up for a number of reasons

1. Shared information
2. Because the info is shared, it will scare a lot of people from getting into base

this off topic but....

I propose the idea that the less (mass influx) people that BASE illegally, the better chance that the rest of us can continue to BASE, legal or otherwise.

For whatever it'z worth

If this is true, then the amount of people who would get into BASE is massive. There is an amazing amount of people entering the sport at the moment, some of these people (from speaking to them) seem not to have the knowledge or skills once thought of as needed before BASE jumping. I have even spoken to people who now jump (as it seems fucking easy to get into BASE with all the "courses" available) who have not even heard of "The List" or flown a 7 cell before their FJC's! or know how to pack slider down v up! - I met a guy who did not even know what a mesh slider was before his FJC!

We are reaching critical mass here, we are getting reports of day blazing, people doing things they dont have the skill for (B's on jump 8 and the like), teachers taking students to objects they have not even jumped, the list goes on.............

People are entering the sport without any concept of working for it or making any effort............. this in the long run is going to be the downfall of the sport.......

so to say the list should stand as it puts people off I disagree with - the fact remains - BASE is now trendy and so very easily accessable - and I think (certainly in the UK) we are about to enter some dark times................

the List is never going to stop this............

leave it up...i for one have seen a change in the sport in five years...its now TOO accessible (yeah im selfish)..also the hurdles that made you think long and hard about getting into it arent as visible as they were so, your average 150 jump dickhead from the dropzone can get on a course then hey presto hes a BASE jumper day blazing the objects in your locale (already happening here in england)...leave the list up and raise the jump number threshold to 500 jumps ,show them the death video as a mandatory experience to go through before they get accepted on a course..maybe we should make them talk to mates of Slims,Niks,DW,Duane Thomas,Jason F and the rest of the 86 before they even get a look in...i dont know..but for one thing leaving the list up is a good place to start...

Been doing just that for the last couple of years. I firmly believe that a carnage video must be shown to each and every student before they make a decision to enter the sport. Aside from many technical aspects it really shows on emotional level what they will be dealing with.

Funny enough, i still have not seen any student who would walk away after watching a video.

bsbd!

Yuri.

I think this has to do with the 'unpersonal' aspect of a video. If I would for example be shown the video of Slims accident it wouldn't hurt me that much. I mean, I don't like it so see him get killed, but I didn't knew him. It would hurt me much more if I knew him more, or if it was someone I knew in the video (but why to see the video then).

I think someone who has lost a good friend in skydiving (perhaps even in base (before the person started to basejump)) is more likely to walk away from base, then someone who has never lost a friend and is just shown a video of someone he doesn't know.

This is why I'm a big 'fan' of longterm ground crew (a year or more) before base. Experiencing a person getting hurt (even if it is 'just' a broke arm or leg) can and will do much more then a video can ever do.

Thijs

I've found that the memorial videos are usually better "wake up calls" than the actual death videos. It hits home a lot harder if you see the person's whole life, their family, the people who loved them, etc. If you just watch the carnage, it's too easy to see it as a "video game" and disconnect it from reality. The point of showing the footage ought to be to get people to connect the reality of the sport with the reality of their life, and understand that the consequences are real, and can really affect them.

This is the part that gets me, these guys who are fucking around are just following in other jumpers footsteps and screwing up established objects. They are making no effort whatsoever to open anything themselves.

I'm still new to BASE, but the level of attitude and ignorance from some people even newer to the sport than me is unbelievable.

Is this 'I want it and I want it now' attitude a new thing or have there always been this many fuckwits not willing to pay their dues?

On the positive side, the newbie on our crew (Richard) is sound, he listens and he thinks. I've also jumped with two newbies up north who were really switched on (both very experienced skydivers and have packed many reserves). I do think people who have paid some dues in skydiving think a bit more about consequences.

Last year was a bad year but unless people stop jumping objects that are beyond their ability/experience we are heading for worse.

Will

I agree with Yuri and Tom, and yes, we have always shown students a "bloopers" tape near the end of the ground school and before their first BASE jumps. What I noticed in watching Anne teach is that when she would show a malfunction, she would explain completely what was happening, then stop the tape and discuss procedures to rectify the problem. Then she would have the students practice these procedures. It was amazing to see how the reality of what they were doing would suddenly hit them; some would pause in mid-action and go blank...then come back to reality and make some kind of comment about how they just realized what it was they were encountering...it was in that moment for many of the students that it "got real". Then Anne would discuss what to do to avoid that particular malfunction in the first place.

I especially liked the "misrouted bridle" lesson; the one where the bridle was wrapped around the leg strap. She would give the same correction as for a pilot chute in tow: sit up, swing your arms up and around behind your head to snag the bridle and pull on it. "It won't clear the mis-routed bridle, but it will give you something to do before you die". I always did enjoy her wry/twisted sense of humor, the same black humor shared by so many BASE jumpers...

After a couple of hours of video, discussion, practice, and avoidance techniques, the students would be very much in touch with what it was they were getting themselves into. When finished, Anne would ask "so does everyone still want to jump tomorrow?" A couple of students actually said they weren't sure, that they'd sleep on it and see how they felt the next day. It was good to see that they weren't taking BASE so lightly anymore, and had a much better awareness of what the outcome could be for different situations.

As far as I am aware, all of the students did choose to jump.

Oh, I think we've gotten off topic, but it's still a good discussion. The List should stay up.

Peace,
K