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Did first jump last night. 2 way with hand held 4 sec delay. Awesome. Off heading opening 90deg to left countered with rear riser to correct. Nice crew two way landing . Now talk about fear at the exit point . More than life and death words cant describe the wall I went through.Was going to go stowed but on the edge opted for going hand held It was commented and I quote " best first base exit that was seen by my mentor, not head low at all. Solid 4 sec delay. No ground crew could be gathered cause everybody was wufos to busy to help. I do know this I went into a zone when the count reached 1 that skydivings never gave me. And to wrap this thread up the bridge became my bitch

I'm not a BASE jumper (yet), but the numbers you give seem to me... 1st jump, 2 way, 4 sec. hand held.

My idea is that they all don't mixe very well together. Anyways it worked out fine, so that's cool... But I wonder if anyone will have the same reaction than mine.

BTW what altitude was the exit ??

handheld's a good option for your first jump, wise choice ... and did you say crw?! now thats crazy

but uh, congrats!

handheld ? OK
4 sec's handheld ??

J'ai passé les 5" à la main pour mon 1er saut de falaise...

does that make it more "recommendable" ??
specially on a 2 way ??

am I the only one that thinks this whole situation sounds a bit fucked for a first jump?

edit to add: from his report and the conclusions drawn from it..........

Now BASE 813, you know what happened last time a new BASE jumper was criticized. You and I were in the dog house. You remember? Yeah you remember.

Hey fabien hows it going? Ok, no more code talk... ingles por favor And how high was the bridge he speaks of?

this means he did a 5'' handheld for his 1st cliff jump.

moreover the original poster mentionned he was going stowed, and then changed to handheld on exit.

Ok night before jump we were at ymca for 3 hours of practice exits into 8' pool 1/2 stowed 1/2 hand held. critique every exit with mentor holding with count then pitching from hand held and stowed. head up and slightly forward exits. When jump happened muscle memory was perfect. mind you my last 230 jumps are all sit fly with some of the best in my humble opinion free flyers in the world. so going stowed although not the norm could have been done but out of fear I couldn't do it. Doing a 2 way took a big edge off and made it easier to go with my mentor doin the count. Mind you there was never any pressure to jump only it was getting late and this was a sunset jump. I didn't want to do it at night being my first so for me being introduced into this the greatest sport ever my hat is off to my instructors for teaching me so well. In air was no fear only fear was the exit and that was more intense than even my first tandem or even going without jumping for 4 months winter of 2003 so I thank all who came before and made this possible for me. You've given me a gift the only way I'll ever be able to pay you trailblazers for is to be safe not to extreme follow directions but most of all go through every fear knowing that gods kids are meant to fly thats why we jump .

Dude.

In all seriousness, if your mentor put you off for a 2 way on your first jump, and even considered a stowed jump, you ought to go find someone else to help you. Your life is being put at risk in ways you probably don't understand yet.

I'm really hoping that you have a ton of CRW jumps, so the idea of doing CRW on a BASE jump, at night, isn't as ridiculous as it sounds. But somehow I'm guessing...

Personally
I think PCA from a bridge is the safest way for a new jumper , I have taught how to Base jump a few guys from my country , and I have done PCA´s on their first jumps and that has worked great.

Mis 2 pesos .

Gabo

Ooopss... Sorry, I won't do that again. Or... I've read on another thread that there's some whipping in progress by female base jumpers... Should I continue to be a bad boy?

I am in agreeance here... I don't think this was the optimal jump configuration... Please ask around for the base mentors around here (not me) and I think they will agree...

Le Roy

woah... I said that?

I have taught how to Base jump a few guys from my country

That's not so bad, actually. I wouldn't recommend it for a 1st BASE jump, but a long handheld delay for a first cliff jump is (although not my favorite) definitely one of the options.

The other options being?

A shorter delay but still handheld?

It depends on the object available, and the jumpers terminal experience.

I think my first choice would be someone with good terminal skills, going stowed and taking a delay over 10 seconds with a strong track, from a good (1000m or more) high cliff.

Who'da thunk it, I think you and I were in a dinner party at Eva's near Eloy recently.

Once again I have ABSOLUTELY NO experience in the domain, but wouldnt you have a risk of premature deployment with a long handheld delay ??

While I type, thinking I already handheld my PC for various reasons in freefall, but the issues would certainly not be the same with a mono canopy system, close to an obstacle...

Yes, if you are using a pin rig. That's a good reason to use a velcro rig for that kind of thing.

Sorry to ask for more information again, but I don't quite see how a difference between pin or velcro causes different behaviour here. Perhaps the combination of the bridle being stowed differently (over the shoulder) and the pilot-chute inflating sooner (at a different location) is what you mean?

Thanks,

Jaap Suter

Flapping bridle is more apt to pluck the pin(s) loose than it is to shear off an entire velcro shrivel flap.....
I think.....
Make centz?
Later
Blair

Yup. As a trivia question (or answer?) I was once told (by someone who was involved in the development) that this was one of the original driving factors behind the development of velcro BASE rigs (back when pretty much all jumps were hand held).

So at what point did 1 and 2 pin rigs catch on? When were they first used?

Pin rigs were first used when BASE jumps were first made--because that was all that was around.

Then came velcro rigs, then pin rigs came back sometime in the mid 90's.

Honestly, I think that way too many people overlook the velcro rig. It definitely has it's place in every jumpers arsenal.

Can you go into depth? I personally have only jumped a velcro rig once, and it was on my first jump on someone elses rig.

I know the standard answers, but why do YOU think it has its "place in every jumpers arsenal?"

Now one thing that I like is, that when watching those with velcro jump, they usually open +/- the same altitude. I havent had a problem as of late with PC hessi, but can see the implication if you have additional pin tension, especially on a low alti jump. But on the flip, I have done pull tests with my mentor and have had as low as 4lbs on one pin and 6lbs on the bottom pin.


One reason I ask Is that I might have a velcro rig that I might be jumping... Maybe for a water jump... dont want to get my pin rigs wet... lol

How did you do the pull tests? I've tested the tension on several rigs. In my opinion, the average tension is higher on a velcro rig, but the variability in the tension is much greater on a pin rig. If you test a pin rig on the ground, then take the same rig and put it on, curl up in a tight ball, and test the tension again, you're likely to get _very_ different results. On a velcro rig, on the other hand, the pull tension is actually quite consistent in various positions. I've seen pin opening force as low as 2 pounds--but as high as 22 pounds. Velcro, on the other hand, pretty much ranges 12-16 regardless of positioning.

Which is really more important--having a chance that you will have lower tension, or having a consistent tension that you can count on?

Dont laugh, we used a fish scale

That's We found> We could get super low pull pin pressure (4-6 lbs) but on the other hand, we had some pull tests, when curled up and de arched, as high as 12-16lbs. Now that particualr rig packed a tad loose.

When I get a chance, I would like to do some more pull tests, this time on my gargoyle with a BJ260. I am sure it could be higher than 16lbs If I try.

Murphy's Law would imply that the highest possible pin tension you can create in tests is the one to worry about--not the lowest.

agreed,

Knock on wood, My packjobs are usually pretty clean and the pin tension is usually low. I do see what you are saying though.

So when you are doing somthing so-so low and you are not comfy with your twinpin packjob, a velcro rig might be a better choice?

Also note that if I remember correctly, the velcro was opening at 12lbs?

Not really. If you are very low, I'd go with pins (and spectra) and be absolutely sure you have the body position dialed to minimize pin tension. That's one of the learned skills involved in ultra low freefalls.

and i suspect one that only come with time and jumps

so what are you saying then.... when would you use a velcro rig over a single or twin pin?

Yes. If you make those jumps at higher altitude (so if you screw it up it's no big deal), and use a camera to review them, you'll have more chance of getting the time to repeat the practice jumps.

thats one thing thats helped me with PC Hessi's, Well better said It has helped me in learning how to get my PC inflated ASAP after It is deployed.

That's it... I used a reactor 4, with wide and stiffened velcros. I don't think there's much risk of premature deployment.

One needs to be very careful with the way the PC is held. A PC held with fabric out of the hand may turn you around or flip you over when airspeed is increasing.

FYI, that jump took place in the famous swiss valley, at the yellow ocean: underhung, vertical way down to the bottom, no track required. That is a really good place for a first slider up jump.

CyA

what is your opinion in making the pin loop a bit longer on ultra low jumps to decrease tension?

That is fine. You can lengthen the loop a bit to get lower tension or you can use a closing loop made of spectra.

If you use a spectra closing loop, it's quite hard to get a high pin tension. I've tried all kinds of silly stuff and shortened the closing loop so that the rig would barely close. With the spectra loop, the pin would still pop before the rig would move.

If you're interested in experimenting, I'll mail out some spectra closing loops to interested BASE jumpers in exchange for taking me to one of your local objects when I'm in your neck of the woods.

Any BASE jumpers desiring their free set of "DexterBASE Rigging" spectra closing loops PM me with your address. (BASE jumpers outside the US will obviously be on a case by case basis.) First 30 inquiries will get them- that means I have to build sixty closing loops. No worries, they only take a minute to make.


Edit: Oh yeah, Tom, I'll mail your out tomorrow I promise. They've been sitting by my sewing machine since the day we talked about them.

Lots of variables. Lots of NEW variables. Definitely a recipe for success. That is how they teach all outdoor sports. I remember when i did my first skydive: CRW rig, skysurf board, tandem passenger, tight demo landing area, no reserve, competition jump, prize money, etc. And when I did my first SCUBA dive I had: 120m deep dive, photography, solo, it was a cave dive, fresh muddy water, icy cold, etc. But hey, I lived.....

No piisfish, you are not the only one questioning the logic. Is it a troll though???

But hey, he survived so it must be OK. Each to their own.

When you start, think very clearly about risk management and sequential learning. Unless you only have 12 months to live, it is always better to learn a step at a time. This is true of high school mathematics, business management, investing, sport, etc. You can opt for the multiple step process but you ARE increasing the risk. TO maintain the level of safety, if you increase the risk you should increase the level of risk management.

my $0.02

With 12 months to live I would definitely try to enjoy each bite of livfe even more than now and wouldn't want to spoil so short amount left.

Quite scary first jump...
Was it a first BASE or a first night BASE?

phil6086 you are looking to go in doing a 4 sec hand held 2 way on your first jump. how about you try a few double gainers into a pool then just snap one off your local E for your second one.

i'd lose that 'mentor' of yours too.

can someone more able to write and transfer thoughts to paper post something that lists everything wrong with this first jump................

I have PM'd the original poster and had many PM's with others about this thread.........

My whole "who thinks this is fucked up" is obviously confirmed - can someone write something sensible and comprehensive on why we think this...........

IF you have a mentor that allowed you to have this firstt experience as a first jump - THEN FIND ANOTHER MENTOR!


I decided to never post to DZ again - but this post scares me........


is this how US BASE is now? anyone and everyone?

I need to clear up a few of my the terms I used when I first posted the other night. This jump was a bandit jump, it was from 900' so it was decided to not be visible under canopy from 700'. It was a 2 way I pitched at 4 sec mentor pitched at 5.We didn't due crew we were just in close proximity to each other when we landed. Sorry if I caused any misunderstanding by my using wrong terminology. I sometimes due that even when skydiving. Now as far as my canopy skills 2 years ago took Rob Laidlaws course started being able to hit the Ps at xkeys pretty much every time and I've had too numerous to lists coach tips from the best canopy pilot at that drop zone. So I may not do 720 hook turns I have been known to swoop in at shut down dead center of the Ps at my home DZ. Remember this you all started this knowing less than I do and I'm not saying this with any disrespect but this is 2005 alot has changed on what is safe now and what was safe 10 years ago. And as far as caning my mentor don't think so he's a good skydiver with 2000+ jumps and he knows he dosen't know it all and he's willing to learn as am I. So if this post does offend anyone thats your bag not mine. Mind you there are alot of basers in my area and I dont just rely just one I rely on all that I can to stay safe and not be a statistic Maybe it wasn't safe what was done but only time will tell Mind you most wuffos think even going out of a plane at 13500 is stupid and they will never know the freedom we take for granted every time we jump. And one last partin experience I will share with you is 3 years ago I landed in a tree after getting down and feeling like an idiot one of the local jumping gods really gave me a hard time about it and made me feel like shit. I was new and took it as it came from god. Looking degected sitting on the bench this older guy came up and asked what happened and I told him what that other guy said. After going over my jump with me we discussed ways to avoid it in the future, never have done another tree landing, and his parting comment to me was the next time someone gives me a wrath of shit for a mistake I've made simply reply "what you've never made a mistake " and he left. That guy I found out now has some where in the vincinity of 20000 jumps so thats that.

Definitely not strictly a US thing. I know someone who went to Switzerland to learn to BASE jump in the valley. The guy teaching him had 50 BASE jumps.

This is not an isolated incident. How many BASE jumpers in the UK do you know who didn't either A) suck it up and pay the money to do a 'slider-down' FJC in the states or B) find themselves an experienced local jumper to teach/mentor them? Everyone else tries to do it on the cheap via an unqualified inexperienced 'friend' or a big wall FJC that does not prepare for local conditions/objects.

Will

Hi David,

Congrats on your first jump, it sounds like you did a good job, had fun and survived it.

I don't think the negative responses have been directed at you so don't take them personally but do you understand where they're coming from? Your profile says you come from Florida and you said the jump was from 900 ft so I'm assuming this was an antenna. A short slider up delay like you did is probably the worst combination of delay and gear config in terms of heading performance - ie a 4 second slider up jump is more like to open off heading than pretty much any other jump. Had you thought about that? Have you discussed stuff like that with anyone? Add to that very little clearance from the object, the presence of guy wires, the strong likelyhood that you'd under delay and the fact that you don't really know how you're going to react on the exit point and that's why people are saying it was a bad idea. And that's ignoring the whole 2-way thing.

It's great that you've got plenty of experienced jumpers around to get advice from. Get their thoughts on whether that was an appropriate first jump. Get your mentor's thoughts as well, he might have changed his mind after the fact.

Gus

In project mayhem you choose your own level of involvement

Hey phil how did you like your jump? Did you live ? Did you get hurt? No ? Then screw all those sissys, they sound like old ladies. Did you feel like you were ready for that jump? Sounds like you did well for your first jump.Don't let anyone talk you into doing anything stupid or out of anything your ready for. I'm familliar with the "S" you jumped not an "A". I wish I knew everything like those old ladies maybe someday. Good luck with your double gainer off the local E !!! I just did my first McConkey off my roof in a straight jacket into my neighbors pool Its been hard to type this with a pencil in my mouth while in this damn wheel chair. In conclusion be safe learn about your gear and know "YOUR LIMITS" Time for my diaper change and sponge bath lucky me blue skys

thanx for the reply don sounds like your truly nuts don't think I'll be jumping with you though. PS your right about the S Howd you know?

Natural selection man. I wish the "mentor" would be at as much risk as the "student".

While they both use parachutes modern sport skydiving and BASE jumping are _very_ different sports.

Swoop accuracy is a high-speed game about getting to about the same place in the pattern above 1000 feet, stretching and rounding off your approach however you want, fitting your final turn into where you are in all three dimensions relative to your target, and killing your speed in the right place. Brake input doesn't change your glide angle much in no-wind conditions. High forward speeds make winds less critical. Doing this at your home dropzone means you have hundreds or thousands of jumps in the same place and are familiar enough with the environment that you can accurately judge your position from thousands of feet up. You only need to be consistent to end up where you want. No obstacles within hundreds of feet makes for a very low-stress environment.

BASE accuracy is a low-speed game. You start where ever you opened at a low altitude (below 200 feet on a static line and at most 1000 feet on a big wall when you're a whimp like me). With a .7 wing loading you have little drive and the winds are a big deal. The shape of your pattern is often very constrained by obstacles (you can't stretch out a base-leg bounded by cliff on both sides). Your biggest asset is being able to come nearly straight down . You have few jumps off the same object . While the landing area might be a lot bigger than a pea pit it can have obstacles on all four sides (trees on three sides and a drop-off on the other) and bad outs (one of the times I was stupid my best choice was a 15x15x10' boulder).

It's been years since I couldn't consistantly land one of my skydiving ellipticals in a familiar environment (location and winds) within a few inches of where I want width-wise and a few feet length-wise. My BASE accuracy in low-stress open environments was still a lot better than pea-pit sized. That wasn't enough for me to avoid over-shooting a much larger landing area and crashing into a tree.

A thousand skydives or more give you some equipment knowledge, some skill in adjusting to winds, the ability to spot where you'll land with no control input, and some tracking ability for terminal jumps. They don't help you to judge what you don't know and do give you a false sense of confidence.

Four years and a hundred jumps after starting BASE jumping I know less than shortly after starting and respect it a lot more.

from the sound of it the "mentor" is at as much risk as the student................

any mofo seems to be a "mentor" these days.............grab your mentors by the hand and dont cry about it when you get fucked up......

i do 3,5sec delay handheld if i like and feel it perfectly safe..

Faber and 3.5 secs ??

Do you put your slider back on ??

Dexter
i could use one more set,rembering i have 2 rigs,i used the once you shipped me last time and they sure does it good.

Hope i get the oppertunety in the big US to use my "Dexloops" as i call em

Blair,you shouldnt do the "MCFaber-chiken-exit"(playing a chiken on your way towards the ground),while doing long delays handheld

yeah when im climbing 400ft i bettere get some freefall
Jumping in my Gargoyle it actualy dont hurt that much(my Vertex is a max3sec,which hurts)

sliders? no thanks,i rather pull high on a 6-700fter than using a slider(ouch THAT would need a lift or somthing)

alright phil6086, skydiving and BASE are two very different sports...something i believe you dont have a grasp of after reading your 'explanation'. swooping a 9 cell at your DZ is nothin like sinking in a 7 cell. the canopys do share a few characteristics but when getting into base you have to go back to step 1 and progress if you want to walk away from every juimp. you generally only have one chance with base. skydiving can be a little more forgiving.

think back to your AFF. did you jump solo and fly a 120sqft canopy to the ground? ... i think not. what i'm getting at is everyone starts at level 1 and progresses through, learning different skills as they go.

generally in BASE everyone should do a PCA for their first, preferably off a bridge. if the object doesnt suit, it shouldnt happen. there are so many things that could've gone wrong with your jump. eg. bad body position could've led to your bridle catching a limb. your lucky to be still alive. your mentor's experience in skydiving should be no way compared with BASE. how many base jumps does he have anyway? it doesnt sound like he has too many. you might feel like he's helping you but it looks like he's doing the opposite.

you (and mentor) seem to have the wrong attitude about BASE and are not treating it with the respect it should have. if something did happen you could've been a statistic, made it to the news headlines and given the sport yet another bad kick in the guts. no one is going to pat you on the back for doing a 4 sec handheld 2 way on your first jump. it's just stupid. in a way you are taking from the sport instead of giving.

[quote: this is 2005 alot has changed on what is safe now and what was safe 10 years ago] how can you support that? in terms of pushing the limits, yes, people are doing things that were perceived to be impossible 10 yrs ago. BUT, everyone has to learn from the start, not jump in the deep end. the learning process should be practically the same for everyone: a few PCA's then the slider down handhelds.

if more and more people like yourself get into base the way you did there are going to be more accidents, more deaths, bigger fines, a bad public image and sites are going to get closed.

i hope you reconsider your progression in the sport.