Basejumper.com - archive

http://data2.itc.nps.gov/morningreport/

Oh, that sucks.

come on guys--are your jumps REALLY more important than the wildlife? We'll never do a legal NP jump with this kind of irresponsible shit going on. It's all of our responsibility to know about nesting seasons and other REAL restrictions. Just because it's a "bandit" jump doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to treat the place and its occupants with respect.

On another note--one the eggs hatch, and if you get your gear back, make your packjobs NEAT there! I'd hate to hit one of THOSE cliffs! Good luck getting your gear back.

mh

FYI: Leave No Trace: a good start...

Couldn't agree more.

Aren't we wildlife too . . .

NickD
BASE 194

hehehe... yeah I suppose. Do you like to be bothered during mating though? hehehe

Because we think, and love, and caress. we pretend to be smarter and better than other species when really we aren't. No matter what we do, the life force will continue to evolve on this planet despite, or in spite of, what we humans do. It's either all natural or not. And I'm just as natural as any one of those Falcons . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Just because they're getting nailed with the "disturbing wildlife" thing doesn't mean that's really how it went down. The jumpers were regular climbers, and climbers have fairly good notice of cliff closures for nesting. I'm wondering if they didn't throw in the "disturbing wildlife" charges to increase the penalties and hassle.

That's a good question. And given the rumors we hear about the NPS, you're not alone in wondering if that is indeed the case, Tom.

http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/birdc05.htm
http://www.stanford.edu/...nt/pin/balconies.gif

So I looked into it, and found these websites. Are they accurate? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But it could have meant the jumpers picked a particularly bad time and place to jump. I don't know exactly where they jumped from, I'm not familiar with the area, and these links don't provide me with all the info I'd like. If I've misinterpreted them, someone who knows please let me know.

To me it appears that there may be legitimate grounds for a "disturbing the wildlife" charge. This charge has been levied many many times against hikers, climbers, etc in the past, so why should jumpers be exempt? I don't think one can plead "selective prosecution" of the law either; if you get caught breaking the rules, ya take your hits. Then change the law if you disagree with it.

Having been involved with birds of prey for a while I admit I'm a little biased.

But as for NickDG's statement that "we're wildlife too," I agree with him 100%! In other words, as part of the ecological web we must live with the consequences of our actions. Is one jump going to scare off any of those raptors? Highly doubtful, unless you 180 into their nest. Will five in a season? Maybe. 20? Almost definitely. When do you stop? You can apply the same line of reasoning to the extinction of species. I'm not saying we need to rescue every dying Jakovasaur (southpark reference for those who don't watch it) but raptors are not exactly Jakovasaurs. The country made tremendous effort over the last 30 years to bring many of these species same back from the brink of extinction, and we learned a lot in the process... why chip away at all that hard work.

Even if you completely dismiss environmentalism... It's bad PR for our cause, and birds of prey are still pretty cool to have around!

Not ripping on anyone here, and definitely not criticizing any jumpers for making a choice I would have avoided. I just think that these are some good reasons to avoid doing it in the future, that's all.

All too true Nick.

Except one thing.

The Falcons don't understand human politics as well as we should.

They are protected, we are not. If an animal kills a human, we kill the animal. Why not the other way? Its unfair for humans to be selective about equality.

Sometimes you have to do the thing that is perceived as correct by society in order to fulfil your desires.

It all depends on what outcome you are after.

Personally, I like the taste of falcons. They taste kind of like American Eagle or California Condor.

Jumping into the protected area is the equivalent of breaking and entering. Raptors are not adequately equipped to protect themselves against such incursions, and because we have co-opted their habitat, we have an ethical obligation to do it for them.

As far as I'm concerned, this is not about BASE. It's about a total disrespect for the creatures with which we share this planet.

rl

and in the middle of the afternoon! those bastard DAYBLAZERS!

Hey... Avery
Remember when all of us got tickets in Washington State Parks...
for, Disturbing Sensitive wildlife. Nesting Falcons.... Trespassing on *Public Property*... Illegal take-off and landing of Aircraft.

Falcons are hardly endangered. I see them all over the place. Even nesting in down town buildings around here.
They seem to be Rugged and adapting creatures. as long as you don't.....
Keep Shoving DDT down there Throats.

When Falcons start to grow... Opposing Thumbs, Create Civilization and Rule the Earth.
That's the time I will start to consider a lesser species an... EQUAL.

...........................

My Point Being:

If they do not want you playing in there Cat Box. They will Throw Every Excuse at you.
to keep you from Threatening there little word they have created around them and
Undermining there strangle hold of Control they have... Created just for ...YOU..
.
.
In my opinion the Park Services can...Kiss My ASS.

also:
Our... Worthless...Piece of Crap Lawyer, Rolled over on us.

Hello Ray,
Yeah, I was thinking of just that when I read the morning report.
Crazy, we were just watching some video from that tour of PDX.
Some incriminating footage will be on the soon to be released

Ya.... they was still good times I would not trade for nothin though.

some incriminating footage...Cool.. All I can hope is that I am in some of It.
.
.

Because we think, and love, and caress. we pretend to be smarter and better than other species when really we aren't. No matter what we do, the life force will continue to evolve on this planet despite, or in spite of, what we humans do. It's either all natural or not. And I'm just as natural as any one of those Falcons . . .
__________________________________________________

Tell that to the DoDo bird or the passenger pigeon. In this particular case you have to be sensitive to the arguments. I believe there have been proven cases where, say sea kayakers have caused nursing mothers to leave there young ones permanently by approaching too close...

Anyway, after they closed the cave for pretty much the same reason you have to realize this is something they're looking out for.

Hi Ray

I have to disagree with you on this one. Come down to Australia. I'll take you to one of my favourite jump sites. Whilst we are standing on the edge, look down. The visuals are AMAZING. A gorge that narrows as your focus moves from the edge to the bottom. A creek meanders below. Trees. Limestone caverns. etc etc

Look up and out in front of you, then peer a little to the right. Wow. What a visual. This is the human "civilisation" exercising its so called God given right to exercise its "superiorority" over nature.

What do you see? The other side of this beautiful gorge is being mined. Cliffs are disappearing. Trees are being felled. etc etc. I sometimes wonder how long it will be until the exit point is mined?? How superior!!! Someone will make money and spend it. The benefits of the mining is finite. But the next generation may not have the opportunity to see nature in real life. Heck, they may not even be able to use the exit point that we have grown to love. I am wondering where the superiority is here?

To me, nature is a big component of BASE jumping. To see selfish, ignorant, short sited, narrow minded humans take this away in an instant of self gratification has nothing to do with freedom and being a superior race. It actually shows inferiority.

Humans (& in particular Americans & now Australians) are dessimating the planet. It is ironic that both the USA and Australia have refused to sign recent international environmental treaties. This is not superiority. This is short sighted use and abuse.

Cities, technolgy, progression, etc are wonderful things. But so too is nature. So too is watching a falcon and the way it efficiently glides through the sky.

I'm not saying we should stop jumping sites where various species exist. But we should respect other species that exist there. We should also respect the wishes of society when efforts are made to preserve species.

If we don't show this respect, then we deserve no respect in return. And we should be treated accordingly.

Me. Me. Me. does not deserve respect.

Happy jumping!!!



p.s. I took the attached photo yesterday morning. The beauty of it is that it is less than 1km from the centre of the city I live in and a drop zone that I jump at. Due to consideration given to coexistance between nature and man, I had the opportunity to witness this.

I removed a totally unrelated conversation from this thread.

This is a good discussion, and I don't want to see it sidetracked into a pointless rehashing of some other issues.

Before this turns into a gang bang flame fest why don't we let the accused jumpers relate their side of the story rather than pouncing on them when hardly anyone knows what actually happened. You're all making assumptions off of a fucking NPS report and we all know that the NPS plays fairly WTF...

Come on guys, this is a mistake anyone could have made. So lets wait and hear from the three jumpers before we all gang up on them. They are going to suffer enough between losing their gear, fines, and courts fees so lets not add to it by ex-communicating them from the community. You're all acting like they're a bunch of poachers or something.

{QUOTE} come on guys--are your jumps REALLY more important than the wildlife? We'll never do a legal NP jump with this kind of irresponsible shit going on. It's all of our responsibility to know about nesting seasons and other REAL restrictions. Just because it's a "bandit" jump doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to treat the place and its occupants with respect.
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In response to this comment and Nate's comment above, Couldn't agree with you more Nate. It's like all those saying that these guys are "not respecting" wildlife are saying that they went out there intentionally to disturb the wildlife, to do them harm and intentionally neglected signs; this isn't the way it went down. They did not absolve themselves of responsisbilty. Nobody but the three of them were there and therefore before you judge other BASE jumpers and their actions and ethics, and give the NPS the benefit of the doubt, sit back and ask yourself if you've ever done something and not known something important about the situation until after the fact (if that is the case here)....sometimes that's called a mistake and we all make them.

Well said

Holy Crap
People.. This isn't Ecology 101 in your local community Collage.
Even though being out in Nature is a large part of BASE Jumping.

Don't get caught. That is your responsibility. so wake-up.

You don't really expect them to just invite you in for a nice afternoon jump on a sunny day.
that Nonsense will never be the reality to an ...American BASE Jumper.

I can drive out to Portland City or just go out to my Job during the day / any day of the week where
I live and see Raptor. They are everywhere...and the population is GROWING
More species of Raptor than I can identify. / Hawk / Eagle / Falcon / Osprey etc. everywhere.
also:
Peregrine Falcons are not on the Federal endangered species list. They have not been on there
for quite some time.
They.. (your controllers) have classified them as...... Sensitive.. (lets say this word one more time)... Sensitive
The State and Federal park services uses the same tactics as the Ecological Terrorist do here in the North West.
1. - Find a species of animal
2. - Get that species of animal classified as... Sensitive
3. - Use that classification (sensitive) as... There Political Tool

A political tool to enforce There agenda of... Control
The agenda being that...You will never be invited to BASE jump on State or Federal Park land.in America.

You do not have the Right as a citizen to BASE jump on the majority of Publicly owned property.
The State and Federal Park Service, Employees job is to enforce the law and to find new ways to
**** Enforce the Law. ****
The Enforcers Mentality does not function in the way you or I think....(the BASE jumper)
Wake-Up... that's why they are the - Park Police.

State & Federal Park Services Officers... are The Enforcers..They dream to be, stand in line to be trained.
1. - The Enforcer also - Choose - to be told how to Dress, Talk, Interact and control .. You.. the BASE jumping public
2. - They gladly choose and take pride in perusing your Faults. Your fault in this case is making a BASE jump.
3. - Then with a pounding of pride and sense of accomplishment in there Hearts.....
4. - They Happily Detain or Arrest you. Then Schedule you to be severally Monetarily Punished.
5. - In the enforcers mind that is how he or she serves the... Human Cause... To Make Your Life Better.

Well Not Me.. My Friends...You can feed into this Lie ... Like Mindless Sheep.. Not to better my Life

You Are BASE Jumpers / Act Like BASE Jumpers / You are in Control

You as a BASE Jumper are FREE... Free for that instant of your life to be the... Superior Species
You are a Superior Vertebrate Human Mammal. .. You are Not some suck-ass, low-life.. Cephalopod.

Take one of those Opposing thumbs on your hand. use that extra Chromosome that separates you from the Common Chimpanzee.
Throw that Pilot-Chute out. Take that superior Brain. Use it as a Tool to...

Make that JUMP...Stick it to the Enforcer... &... do Not Get Caught.
.
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Ray, I couldn't agree with you more.

BTW, Ray...

i agree with you 100%

Ray, I think you are all over the don't get caught point of view. I am not sure of all the endangered/protected species issue there but if you're not getting caught then it will never be known.

Hello again Ray

Some great points.

Even though some people will disagree, the park rangers and their leaders and the society that created them ARE PART OF THE so alled "SUPERIOR" human race. To me, this negates your argument that the human race is superior. There are members within our race that dilute the quality. There are also many that add to the quality.

The reality is that some humans deserve less respect than the chimps you mention. I'll bet Chimpanzees don't stop other Chimps from swinging from the trees & having fun. They might have disputes but they DO play. But humans do try to stop other humans from jumping from cliffs. Go figure huh!

My point is that if we (BASE jumpers) are to truly prove our superiority as a race, we should enjoy our jumping whilst at the same time not contributing to the decline of other species and the environment. Whether you want to beleive this or not, there are locations where BASE jumpers damage the environment. There are many places where they look after it too. POSITIVE IMPACT IS DONE BY SUPERIOR PEOPLE.

Regarding rangers and the park system. There HAS to be some level of protection because the reality is without protection, the human race WOULD trash, blow up, mine, build on, concrete, etc every inch of the planet if there wasn't some level of control. Whether you or any other jumper want to admit it or not, places like El Cap look extremely impressive and you would be bitterly disappointed to see it disappear. There is a bit of the environmentalist in all of us.

The dispute with the park system is not about protection but the level of impact that any particular activity has on the envvironment & prohibition.

r.e. jumping responsibility, what about El Cap and prohibition? Did we have a chance before? Who blew it? Jumpers should be accountable for their actions & the park system should be fair in its dealings.

Its just like BASE jumping itself. Why not let anyone BASE jump at anytime, anywhere without training??? After all, we are superior!!!! Because the absolute majority of BASE jumpers beleive that there should be some level of control so that people are kept alive and our sites are preserved from authoritarian control due to site burning. I am personally happy for ALMOST anyone to jump ALMOST anywhere. BUT NOT EVERYONE EVERYWHERE.

Its easy to get support from BASE jumpers when you are critisising national park rangers.

Tom

p.s. I'm fishing ;) R U biting?

Luv your work.

Its easy to get support from BASE jumpers when you are criticizing national park rangers.
.......

That is true.

Ya but we are only talking about the right to use a little piece of air for just a minute of free fall.

You Have the Right to Jump
If someone say's you cant use a minute of freefall. Then it's your right to Take it.

We air not talking about taking pot-shots at them with a .22 or Poisoning them
with insecticides in the Food-Chain or Climbing up on a rope and staring at them
with a Camera lens for an hour.

Falcons can share the air with us for a moment of there lives.
They will still thrive, Nest, Fly and Hunt.

They call it steeling (air delivery) ****BIG EXCUSE
Sensitive Falcons Nesting **** BIG EXCUSE
Trespassing on Public Park property **** BIG EXCUSE

They will use any excuse to say no to you. It will never end.

Getting out to nature. Getting several good hours of hiking and good times with your friends.
Then you got to steel a piece of air for a moment of Free-fall

Don't get me wrong I love to watch all Raptors fly and Hunt.
I work outside for a living most of the time.and I always take a moment to watch and smile when
They fly.

They want to Fly ,,, well my friend .... So Do I
.
.

In my experience, this is true. I worked in the state park system, not federal, but my experience with rangers is that they are generally law enforcement-oriented only, with little regard for that which they are sworn to protect. Most of the rangers I knew were rejects from the state police academy.

That being said, whether or not rangers use "wildlife protection" as an excuse for their personal vendettas or otherwise, they still have legitimate and compelling reason to preclude anyone from trespassing into protected areas.

As for the alleged superiority of humankind, I suggest continuing education. I'd start with Temple Grandin and Animals in Translation.

Humans are not the end all and be all of the universe.

rl

P.S. No, I'm not a treehugger. I support hunting and fishing. I eat meat. On the other hand, I have--with my own hands--ended the lives of countless animals who could no longer survive in the wild as the result of human thoughtlessness.

While you do see those types in the NPS, there are also a great many who became rangers because they wanted to be out in nature.

One does not, for example, become a Tuolumne backcountry ranger because one wishes to be a cop. That guy is out there because he wants to be out there.

It's generally been my experience that the NPS rangers I've known have more often fallen into the "want to be outdoors" category than the "couldn't make it as a real cop" category.

I agree with the np control thing.

Our national park honcho's and the politicians have given us a one paragraph response of "no you can't jump" which I find unacceptable. Not because they said we are not allowed, but because they did not give any logical reasoning or the opportunity for is to challenge that reasoning. Fact is, the reasoning may not exist or it is unsatisfactory. And their method of control is dictatorial. It is very undemocratic.

Lets face it, democracy is a myth or theory that exists in some text book. Just like communism. You would be hard pressed to find those ideologies anywhere in the world. & George Orwell had it right when he wrote his book "1984". He was about 20 to 30 years out but he got it right.

But most park rangers I have met are definitely in it for location & lifestyle. They have to enforce some rules that their bosses give them, and are quite often apologetic and not 100% committed to the enforcement, but it is their job. Their are certain locations where they take it too far (Y ??). That is usually due to a localised micro-culture. The new guys get influenced by the bosses or some of the old guys.

rl - I'd love to meet up with you and have a chat. You are one very philosophical person.

Happy Jumping . . . . No . . . . Happy Flying

Hey Avery,

Can you email me? clint@skydivemoab.com

Insurance question.\

-

I accept that as factual, because I did know a few of those too. Not many, but a few, which is why...


...I conclude that I have insufficient information to understand the animosity of the NPS for BASE jumpers. As a matter of habitat protection policy, the regulations have the potential to make sense. (There's an equivocal statement if ever there was one.) As a practical matter, the apparent obsession with the capture of otherwise innocuous BASE jumpers seems a little nuts, particularly when such obsession and legalistic adherence to regulations has been the proximate cause of one human death and the indirect cause of another. If there is no damage to the habitat, what's the point of chasing guys with parachutes?

But that's the question. Is there, in fact, no damage? I don't know the answer to that question.

In my younger years, I worked as a naturalist and rehabilitator. I never cared what people did in the park--and they did a lot--unless their activities interfered with the critters or caused harm to the habitat. On the other hand, during that time, I learned to generally dislike--with passionate intensity--my own species, because many of my fellows felt compelled to leave their spoor in everlasting ways. To me, there is almost nothing worse than having to kill an animal because some thoughtless person caused it irreparable damage.

Given that, it would seem to me that there are likely other instances similar to the one under discussion in this thread and that those cases have led the rangers to develop a philosophical hard-on for BASE jumpers.

Maybe that angle deserves a closer look.

rl

  

TVPB:
rl - I'd love to meet up with you and have a chat. You are one very philosophical person.
...........................


Don't know about Philosophical...?

Most who know me say I'm a.... Occasionally funny, Smart-Ass... Cynical, Over Opinionated-Prick - and- Educational, Bankrupt,Half-Assed Road Scholar. Who only thinks he can BASE jump.

Maybe some jump, Beer and some talk sometime
.
.

I'm just as natural as any one of those Falcons . . .


God Damn Right

Hi Ray

I meant Rhonda Lea.

Ray - we've already had some chats & done some jumps together. Don't you remember BD2000 and KL Tower 2001?

I'd love to meet up again though. I was not far off your neck of the woods Nov 2004 (Vancouver & Seattle), but did not have enough time to travel further south. Will get there some day.

CYA Ray

Tom

Out of a couple of relatives and a couple of acquantainces who are or were park rangers of various ilks, I can say that none of the ones I know had the slightest interest in law enforcement as far as I can tell. They got there because they decided, outdoorsmen that they were sitting in classes in college, that they didn't want to wind up behind a desk all day somewhere.

I wonder if the the park service, trying to maintain some sort of wildness (or at least naturalness) aren't a little overwhelmed by the teaming masses of intransigent humans streamin through "their" parks, and don't look on everybody as a problem.

I also wonder if they aren't a little proprietary too. Like, as long as you're just a bovine tourist passing through on well-worn trails to gawk at the park, and they've got one up on you (welcome to our park, got any questions?), they're fine. But if you're more agressive in your approach to nature, learning things or seeking a relationship with nature that's beyond (or at least outside of) their experiences, then you threaten their proprietary position. Like, you can all come meet my girlfriend, but don't be touching anything past the elbows...

I read something in the newspaper that was kind of along these lines..as far as what was done and the punishment. Just check it out it's interesting what he did and what the punishment was compared to a parachute opening and the punishments for that ...I'm hung over so pardon my lack of um......anyhow...here it is:
SAN JOSE
COPTER PILOT FINED FOR HARASSING MURRES
A salinas helicopter pilot was fined $3000 Wednesday for harassing a threatened species of bird while filming a marathon from the air.
James Cheatham, 62, owas also ordered by a US magistrate to keep his helicopter atleast 2500 feet away from common murres- deep diving, black and white seabirds- at Castle Roch Murre Colony in Monterey county.
A federal jury convicted Cheatham in November of a misdemenor charge of airborne harassment of birds.
Cheatham, president of verticare, an aviation company in Salinas said he wqas helping film the Big Sur International marathon on April 27, 2003, and denied he aimed his helecopter at the murres.
-Henry K. Lee

Ray - we've already had some chats & done some jumps together. Don't you remember BD2000 and KL Tower 2001?

...............

Aahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I just remembered just a few minutes ago.
KL tower 2001
Were you the Croatian that said my brand new, Checkered - Red & White- Rig that I sewed up and was so proud of....

Looked like the... Croatian national Flag
.
.

Yup, he's the one.
He also said something about "Bag Itch".

Either I am very forgettable (a big possibility) or the shrooms in Oregon are incredible.

TVPB => Tom Begic - fat bastard Australian (Croatian descent), guy who jumped with DW a lot, Beyond Extreme producer, . . . . aahhh forget it . . .don't worry. I'll see you somewhere sometime.

I can't remember seeing your checkered rig.

See, looks like we are both senile!!!!

TVPB../ Tom Begic
This is Begic what the hell... your profile say Croatian so I just assumed this whole fucking time that was your
Residence not ancestry of decent or immigrated from
DaaaaaaMMMM.! ...DuuuuuuuuuuHh...
You are not senile !!! ...I am just Stupid
You Ozzy Prick ,,, quit trying to confuse Me.. You are doing a damn good job of it.
Well Hell that was sure easy to figure out.
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