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PRESS RELEASE!!!!

Apex BASE Perris, formerly Basic Research, Inc., announces the following advisement regarding Multiple Bridle Attachment stowage in any/all BASE specific containers:

It has come to our attention that the black rubber bands (Skybands by Ralph Ponce) may not be suitable for stowing the Multi Sheath within the container. The black bands are so strong and unbreakable that too deep of a bite on the Multi Sheath can cause a deployment hesitation, creating a pilot chute in tow malfunction.

From this point on Apex BASE (BR) strongly urges all jumpers with Multi to stop using the black bands in the tops of their containers, and instead use the small beige skydiving stows available through many skydiving shops. If you prefer, you can also cut the bands in half lengthwise, creating a "barely there" band.

The desired result of stowing the Multi Sheath in the top of the container is to help stage the deployment of the bridle, the Multi Lines and sheath, and the parachute. This stowage is in no manner meant to reef the parachute in any way. Firmly constricting the Sheath can and will lead to the p/c in tow malfunction.

Please mention this press release to any of your friends that have the Multiple Bridle Attachment option on their FOX or FLiK canopy.

Please call us at (951) 940-1324 or visit our website at www.basicresearch.com for more information.

 
My understanding is that Ralph hasn't been producing Skybands for the last couple of years. He told me he had concerns over the quality of the rubber.

If that's the case, then how were BR even getting the black bands to use?

I'm going to stick this to the top of the forum for a while.

Thanks Tom. We appreciate that.

Karen

Karen,

Thanks for posting this, and for generally calling it to the attention of jumpers.

I know that you, personally, and BR/Apex generally are getting some flak over this right now.

I appreciate that you (both singular and plural) are willing to step up, admit that you can make mistakes, and try to set things right.

Much appreciated!

We purchased ten pounds of bands from Ralph in Sept. 2003, and still have a few pounds left. I guess the longevity of these bands speaks for itself; which is why they are so good for the tailgate, but as we've seen, for the Multi purpose baaaaad juju....

K

I would make a joke about buying them on the black market, but I doubt that type of humor would be recognized right about now.....

Does this mean you're saying it's ok to use the black rubberbands on the tailgate, just not on the multi?

People here on the forums say not to use them for anything and your press release doesn't really say much about the tailgate. Could you clarify that?

Thanks!

Is it un acceptable to use these on tailgates as well? I am only using a double stow.

The black bands were originally sourced for the Tailgate. In fact, in our computer, the item is literally "black tailgate bands". I will continue to use them on the tailgate, and only use 2 wraps on the lower stuff. I believe Todd also agrees with this. I'll let you know if he thinks differently.

K

 

I'd say any band for the tailgate, NO band for the multi! Why would you wanna stage the deployment of the bridle at all?

My 0.2 if there is this much discussion over these little black bands than why bother even having a discusion over them, DON'T use them.

bingo

Reguarding tailgates, the way I see it, these black rubber bands don't have any positive effects. Only the possibility of negitive ones. The only thing they do is increase the likelihood of a tailgate hangup. The tailgate rubberband is supposed to come off, so I use something I know will do what I want it to. Those beige rubber bands cut in half lengthwise are perfect.

In reply to what Karen said, I disagree. I think a good characteristic of a tailgate rubber band is one that isn't going to hang around. It's not important, to me anyway, that I save the rubber band to reuse. I would rather not risk a mal and use a new .5 cent elastic.

Katie

I don't get it.
Certainly there are people out there with far more jumps than me that use Black rubberbands on their tailgate without problems, but the potential problem is indisputable, and so very easily avoided.

Why would you endorse using something that might hang up and kill when an alternative is readily available?
Is the inconvenience of replacing a rubber band that great?

boggled.
-josh

I personally don't use them for anything.

The advantage of using a black band girth hitched to the tailgate is that you can use the same band for many jumps. I once had one last past 50 jumps. This is (a) easier, since you don't have to carry a bag of rubber bands around, and (b) more environmentally friendly (how important that is to you is a personal decision) because you don't leave rubber bands at the bottom of objects.

The disadvantages are (a) greater potential to remain unbroken in a hang-up situation, and (b) greater likelihood to hang up because you are using a girth hitch (larkshead) to hold the band onto the tailgate (in order to gain the longevity advantages).

I figured out again that BASE isn't perfect yet, and we learned a lesson. Don't use black bands, and if you do, know why you are doing it... Jumpers before us had to figure out the same way that slider-down jumps should have the control lines outside the guide rings. We'll laugh about black bands 5 years from now.

Now lets work on making BASE perfect and completely safe, and see who sticks around when there is no risk...

My warning label never made so much sense...

Parachute systems when properly assembled, packed, and operated are still dangerous and unreliable. You should consider yourself a test jumper when using this equipment.

The advantage of using a black band girth hitched to the tailgate is that you can use the same band for many jumps. I once had one last past 50 jumps. This is (a) easier, since you don't have to carry a bag of rubber bands around, and (b) more environmentally friendly (how important that is to you is a personal decision) because you don't leave rubber bands at the bottom of objects.

What I don't understand about this part of the discussion, is what is the big fear of a tailgate hang up? Am I missing something? Did someone almost die from using a black banded tailgate appropriately? I have not heard of one single instance of this, so I'm confused as to why everyone is so adamant that the black bands on the tailgate is a bad idea. Please enlighten me; I need this information. Thank you.

I think you know a Belgium dude who were really lucky not to get hurt on a tailgate hang up on black rubberbands.This were spoken about aprox 1 year ago.

Mail me if you dont know who im speaking about..

I dont birther to find the treads but guess people should search under "larkshead" on Blinc im sure youll find some about this.

Black rubberbands has showen on SL and PCA that they can make hangups..even if you dont larksheard them..

Karen:
I'm not aware of any fatalities, yet.
I'm not concerned about a total malfunction, I'm concerned about hesitation on a low jump. Has it happened? I think it probably has. Whether or not the jumper realized what happened is another story.

Has it been documented? I don't know, but theoretically it could. I'm not going to wait for a fatality before I take the risk seriously. YMMV.

The environmental concerns occured to me. I think a happy compromise would be girth hitching a small brown rubber band. I'd imagine that this is safer, and generally, even a broken band that's been girth hitched will stay with the gear.

It's what I usually do. If I'm doing an ultra low jump, I won't even girth hitch it, just for extra peace of mind.

A side note:
FWIW I don't doubt the motives of any manufacturer so far. We're all in this for fun, but it's a complex game with a steep learning curve and huge penalties for screwing up. It is the nature of the sport.
I'm sure every one of us is clueless about something that others take for granted. That's why this forum is so valuable.
-Josh

What is the big fear of a tailgate hang up? DEATH or serious injury!

I don't think anyone is saying that you will die using a black tailgate band. I think the growing concensus is that you can die from a black rubber band, (I think we established that they suck for skydiving, and really suck for BASE). In fact, I will never use a rubber band on any of my gear, except for the primary stow for slider up. I am going to use masking tape for my tailgate, just taping the lines together.

I remember reading about the environmental impact of jumpers trashing objects with bands. Not only are they really small and natural color, but I have walked the bottom of Tstone several times to check, and found three bands that looked like rubber bands left in the sun for a year. They broke into pieces when I picked them up. And I was staring at the ground walking for a half hour, at perhaps one of the most jumped cliffs in the world. I actually can't believe that I am discussing on the internet about the use of black bands saving the environment, when they serve NO advantage at all, and have met several jumpers who have had tailgate hangups, because of the black super bands.

If saving the environment, one rubber band at a time is such a concern that it overrides your instinctive desire to not get killed, do your thing. But I am going to carry a packet of flower seeds from Home Depot, and sprinkle them at the landing areas to counteract the rubber bands and masking tape that I leave behind, until they biodegrade in the sun anyways...

Seriously, what is the fascination with black rubber bands in BASE?

 

nope it were from a tower

I actually just did a search for the same thing a couple minutes ago. I honestly don't understand why someone would endanger themselves when it is quickly becoming documented worldwide that only bad (very bad) things can, and DO, happen using these black bands, in skydiving and especially BASE...

These malfunctions are only the ones that have video, during dawn/dusk, with skilled jumpers who can analyze this stuff and post them on the internet...

I talked to a guy named Rick at Keener (the mil-spec rubberband manuf.) today and - while he was unable to say _exactly_ how long it would take for a band to degrade, he did go as far as saying approx. 2-3 years. The issue for them is that their bands need to perform to a certain standard that is contrary to biodegredation. That said, he did tell me that higher UV exposure and lower humidity will accelerate the process, so (at least at the pizza rock and others) the process is quicker in the higher altitude, arid climes. As you mentioned, you had a hard time finding bands. I have looked before and found many many bands. I don't know if you were just looking in the wrong place or if someone (or some group) had done a rubber band clean-up day. Either way, the bands are rapidly (in terms of geologic time) reduced to clay and basic organic compounds in relatively short order.

I am guessing your plan to plant flowers from Home Depot seedpacks is purely tongue-in-cheek. If not, and you did intend to do that to offset your guilty conscience, why not just go up and look around and pick up whatever bands you can find. Planting (possibly) alien seeds on public lands may not be such a good idea, from an environmental standpoint (and I don't purport to be an expert). Nice to know you care, though.

BSBD,
Gardner

P.S. On the Keener Material Safety Data Sheet for natural rubber, I got tickled by the "Cleanup Procedures"

To wit:

CLEANUP PROCEDURES:
Sweep, shovel, vacuum into container for disposal. Incinerate or landfill in accordance with all applicable environmental control regulations; not a hazardous material.

I think you know a Belgium dude who were really lucky not to get hurt on a tailgate hang up on black rubberbands.This were spoken about aprox 1 year ago.


Yes, I'm very familiar with this incident; I saw the video. The jumper took 3 wraps on the tailgate for a very low static line jump. The opening forces were not enough to blow the 3 wraps off the tailgate; he pumped his brakes which opened the tailgate and he flared and landed. This is a situation where the packing was at fault, not the band. This jumper had no training and no mentor. THIS WAS NOT A BAND PROBLEM. IT WAS A PACKING PROBLEM.
Two wraps of the band would have been sufficient.

Please don't assume that I am trying to push the black rubber bands for use in BASE. I could care less what everyone uses as long as it works. The black band has worked on the tailgate flawlessly for years, and I still have not heard of a legitimate instance where the band was at fault for a hang up. Yet I see the black bands being demonized because people did not use them appropriately. It's starting to feel like a witch hunt, which is what I'm trying to avoid here. We need to use common sense, know our equipment, components, and accessories, and use them in the manner they were intended. Personally, I will continue to use the black bands on my tailgate because they work, they last, and have enough of the buggers to last me the rest of my life. I am NOT into littering our precious sites with rubber bands that take decades to biodegrade.

I will be changing the Multi Sheath stow bands in my containers for the beige "barely there" bands, however.

Peace,
K

I don't get it.
Certainly there are people out there with far more jumps than me that use Black rubberbands on their tailgate without problems, but the potential problem is indisputable, and so very easily avoided.

Sorry Karen it WASNT my intention to start a wich hunt at all sorry if it looks like that

What i wanted to point out were that there were an incedent more whith black rubberbands.
Yes i do agree that it were a packing erro(larkshead and 3 wraps if i rember correct) but im sure that the fact that it were a black rubberband it also were too strong.

Again sorry didnt wanted to "hunt you down" I do like most of your oppinions and i truly respect you for the person you is.

I still warn against ANY use of the black rubberbands in the BASE envioment.

Bring out the shovels and rakes!

Re: Black Bands . . .

Hi Karen,

Don't let the "Johnny Jump Latelys" get on your nerves. They don't realize the time it takes to figure things out in this sport. You and I are the only ones that know what your job is like. You are the bumper that takes all the hits. After watching you the last few years, I'm very very proud of you.

Tell Todd I said you deserve a raise . . .

NickD
BASE 194

That's rather presumptuous of you, Nick. You're hardly unbiased in this situation, and all the "johnny jump latelys" should be made aware of your past relationship with BR.

sure people does,but as facts are out (specialy in the dangerarea)then people should notice.
The fact of Black rubbbands has been out for at least 1,5 year now as i rember(thinking at treads at Blinc).

I do belive that Todd,Karen and other manufactors does a great job.But getting feedback is important for them,no matter if its good or bad,if a compagny dont takes it then theyre soon off peoples mind(not saying this cause people not to buy BR,atleast i will continue to buy by them.).

I know of four instances in which black banded tailgates have hung up. One in Belgium, one in Australia, one in Twin Falls, and one in the PNW. In each of these cases the rubber band was girth hitched (larksheaded) to the tailgate, and the wraps of the rubber band were inboard of the knot, so the rubber band hung up on the knot holding it to the tailgate. In three of these cases, the jumper landed on land with minimum incident under a bow tied or still inflating (after clearing the hangup) canopy. In one the hangup cleared with sufficient altitude for a normal landing.

I don't know that a brown rubber band would have broken easier and not hung up in these situations, but I bet it would have.

Does anyone have the link to the photos that CRWper (I think?) posted on BLiNC? I don't remember if that was a black band or not. That report was quite detailed, though, as I recall.

I've been using large rubber bands (the "other" standard skydiving size), cut in half lengthwise, to hold my multi for several years without incident. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Thanks!

Hey, ease down there. BR is doing their best to notify people, and we all know the risks when we jump. Let's not let this thread turn into either a witch hunt or a flame fest.

Every BASE jumper is some part rigger, some part test jumper and some part madman. That's just the way the game is played.

KidWicked... Who are you? Feel free to PM me... or feel free to remain anonymous.

I like that.

another nugget..............

Hi KT,
I see you have been busy at work! I never did put any of those yucky black bands on my stuff. They work great for skydiving though. To bad I sold my skydive rig to buy my third BASE rig.

Give'm HELL KT
D.O.

Karen,
I come in piece.
Here is why I think everyone is so adamant that the black bands on the tailgate is a bad idea.

It seems to me that the indisputable problem is that if a very slight human error does occur (such as putting a wrap behind the larkshead or 1 too many wraps), then the black bands are unforgiving (in the sense that they wont break as quickly in the case of a hang-up).

Im sure you are very careful about how you wrap the black band and chances are you will never have a problem with using them on your tailgate. But wouldnt you rather have everyone else out there in BASE land using a more forgiving rubber band in case they wrap the band in error?

I think we have learned as a community that hang-ups do happen and its much better to have a beige band for such occurrences because they break much easier. The band breaking (in time) could be the reason someone walks away.

Here is a Blinc thread relating to this topic====>>===>>
=======>>>>Its right here<<<++++==========

You know what is strange to me.....this whole thread about using black rubber bands started with a multi stow hang up in Moab at the Turkey Boogie. Not one person has mentioned that this situation was complete user error.

Now, I was born and raised on the black bands with my multi and tailgate. I've used them CORRECTLY on both, for the last 130 jumps on anything from a 270' crane in the middle of a busy urban area to the big walls of Norway. I know of several jumpers with hundreds of jumps that have used them CORRECTLY on every jump and have walked away safe.

I'm not saying these little pieces of rubber are, or should be the industry standard for the next few years. My point is that we need to (and I'm not ripping on the guy that packed the rig in question) recognize that human error takes place all the time. Like Karen said, we need to take responsibility for our actions.

Someone dying because of a f**king rubber band is not cool, but it's time this new generation of BASE jumpers steps up to the plate and takes some f**kin' responsibility. Learn every aspect of the jump from the pack job to the landing. If you don't know ASK!!!!

 I agree that people and especially myself(as I'd like to live till tomorrow), need to pay attention, I think the point some people are trying to make is that every "controllable" part of a jump needs to be made as "safe" and "forgiving" as possible in case of user-error, or just plain bad luck or probability.
I spent many years cave-diving,which is another unforgiving sport in a harsh environment. Every part of tech-diving is filled with redundancy and simplicity. The weirdest things can happen when you try it over and over and over again. All it takes in a pack-job is perhaps a fold at the wrong place to roll over a larks-headed. Eventually given enough time...... everyone will have an issue with any piece of gear that is not "Fool-Proof"......... unfortunately it's not fool proof, until enough people die being a fool. In the big picture........ sounds pretty foolish.....

"Someone dying because of a f**king rubber band is not cool"

You're telling me... bottom line for me is, why even use a rubber band that can possibly hang up? Done right, yes, it will work fine, hundreds of times even. I have been using masking tape for a lot of things lately, and that is pretty hard to f*%k up.

They used to use rounds...

oh, and it was pleasure at the 2005 boogi... ehr 2004
until next time

Hi Johnny, I also come in Peace (not piece, not now that my bones are all knitted together again...)

I totally agree with Johnny's thought process here. We do need to have EVERY detail of every jump on our side, including the bands we use on our tailgates. I have agreed with this school of thought since day 1 of BASE jumping.

The reason I put up such a fight over it was clearly expressed by dride (who ever you are, thanks!) that WE NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for ourselves when jumping. My major issue was that the people that had problems (the three that I know of) were using the black bands incorrectly, therefore causing their own problems. Pointing the finger and blaming the black band, or the Multi, for that matter, is NOT the way to save your life. The way to save your life is to accept responsibility, remain teachable, know your gear, know how to pack appropriately, inspect your gear, and no when to say NO to a jump that you REALLY want to do. And even when all of those factors are correct, you can still die, BECAUSE YOU CHOSE TO JUMP OFF A CLIFF. What are you anyway, completely stoopid???? (Whuffo reaction).

I love you Nick DG, and DO, (where ya been, DO? I miss hearing from you!!!) thank you for your support on this freakfest. It is hard to be the one that comes under fire when the fit hits the shan.

I would have LOVED to have seen that rig before it was jumped. I would have been all over that like flies on cowpatties! I know the owner of the rig, by the way, and when I see him he's gonna get a large piece of my mind and the sharp edge of my tongue. Ditto for the guy that borrowed the rig from the owner. (Which wasn't the guy that jumped it.)

But just to make a point to Johnny, if a guy is habitually making "slight human errors" on his business in BASE, I do believe his days are quite numbered. Also, it usually is NOT just one slight error that causes a serious incident; it's usually a string of things that go wrong to add up to the total. I think it's important for us to not be complacent and allow slight human errors to creep into our systems. If we do, we're setting ourselves up.

All in all, I believe this was a very valuable thread. I would like to thank Tom for his excellent moderation on this thread...(Tom, this must be your full-time job!) That being said, I would just like to remind everyone that we manufacturers/employees do NOT have the time to spend on these forums to address every issue. Please contact your manufacturer directly when you have concerns.

I look forward to seeing most of you on the edge someday soon.

As always, be safe, have fun, and soft landings.

K

 

I think the point to remember is the fact that this wasn't started to lay blame or point fingers. It was only meant to save lives. See you soon C?
Adam

Hey C...

Nice job on this post, thank you! You have hit the nail on the head exactly with this,

You are the man...

Peace,
K

I'm going to unstick this. I think it's in the process of finding a permanent home somewhere with the skydiving manufacturer safety bulletins. Once it's there, I'll post a link to this thread.