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I just read that a pc in tow might have been caused by the use of black rubber bands on the multi stows.

For those that don't know, black rubber bands tend to be much stronger, much more difficult to break. This isn't necessarily a good thing.

I'm casting one emphatic vote for *not* using anything other than your basic brown 'standard' skydiving rubber bands on any component where failure to release could be fatal.
Small or large, or cut in half as needed is ok.

That pretty much excludes black rubber bands from use in BASE jumping.

That's my personal, but strongly held opinion, FWIW.

Thoughts?
-Josh

Two votes.

I stopped using the black rubber bands altogether a while back.

Hmm...I've been using a black rubberband, not cut in half, on my tailgate. Although I only do two wraps. Not a good idea?

Certainly a bad idea for PCA. BR/Apex no longer recommends that. I'd use the brown ones, cut in half.

Three votes against black rubber bands. (for BASE)

I didn't like the black rubber bands when they came out a couple of years ago and have not used them after seeing the pull force required to break them.

Bryan

I vote against the multi itself. I still fail to see the overall advantages of the multi, which appears to be partly to blame here. Too many looped catch points, extra rubber bands and packing procedures, etc.

Old Multi Post

I played with a black band for about thiry seconds before throwing the whole bag in the garbage. I wouldn't even keep them around the house for use on other non-BASE stuff. Just in case I was out of standard small rubberbands and would be tempted to use one, "just this once."

They're too strong and don't have a place in BASE. Throw them away.

If you're using them, throw them away, PM me your address and I'll send you some standard bands. I feel that strongly about this.

I almost lost a good friend over this. Throw them away.

I'm with Jason on this one. Multi sucks. Specificaly, the very real inconvenience and potential dangers of multi outweigh theoretical advantages. Multi has been around for many years and yet no statisticaly important improvements (compared to a non-multi canopy) have been proven or even seen.

Black rubber bands are black death - an easy guess at the very first look

bsbd!

Yuri.

Another Multi Discussion.

The little brown ones almost the same size as the black ones or the bigger brown ones used more as closing loops for skydiving d-bags?

Wow, I'm glad this discussion came up. I was so pleased with myself not long ago about the number of black rubberbands I was able to scrounge up. Time wasted I suppose.

I agree that a Multi, may be a unnecessary additive in the mechanical mix for BASE.
My motto has always been:..".Less, is More."
Everybody always has to have, more, more ,more potential complications.

Got to say that I have always used Black, Rubber bands since the day they came
out for Tail Gate..... Never had a Problem.

Never owned a Multi set-up / Never jumped a Multi, set-up...

Then Spence was right. You're next buddy.

They're the ones you'd use to stow microline on your d-bag. Just buy a bag from your DZ. I usually have a bag or two around at any one time.

When it comes to SL jumps I don't think the advantage of the multi is theoretical. The force which is required to break 80lb break cord is spread over four attachment points, so less strain/wear on your canopy at the attachment points.

Will

from what I remember (maybe incorrectly) the black bands have been on a couple of tailgate hang ups. - I would not use black bands on my tailgate.

I have not been a fan of the multi, as I dont see the benefits out weigh the added complexity and added "shit" to a simple deployment system.

People talk of better on heading deployments, or lack of center cell stripping which may cause added problems due to the distortion of the pack job - but I beleive on headings / off headings are more prone to body position and wind direction and strength than whether you have a multi or single attachment point. As for distortion of the pack job, using the right PC for the delay you are doing, non ZP canopies, usually discounts any center cell strip (someone may like to argue against this), I am not well knowledged in terminal deployments, but I assume that due to the possible speed of deployment at terminal center cell strip is more likely - but does the multi "noticably" make a difference with these sorts of deployments?

Is the wear on the canopy with a single attachment point on a SL jump compared to a multi something really worth noting? I again dont know much about SL jumps so I am only asking the question.

Using black bands on TG's to me is something I dont wish to do, and using a multi with the added shit and hassle - well I still dont see that the advantages out weigh the added hassle.

In the end we only encourage a canopy to open in a certain way. and in the end I dont know shit and keep asking questions........ the way I see it, people use multis, people use black bands, and because they have no problems with them they like them. We all just like what makes us happy on the exit point.

the pc-in-tow incident mentioned was caused by the multi bridle being stowed in black rubber band loops. i think this used to be a packing procedure advised by gear manyufacturers (b.r.). at least my own vertex came with loops for multi bridle stowe attachment points. and rubber bands attached...
if you think about it, it's totally crazy to jump a setup like that (i did about ten, before it hit me), no matter what kind of rubber bands you use. would you ever consider strapping anything to your bridle, multi or not? it's common procedure to do a pin check before exit, but what is the point if you have an attachment point right after the pins?

the pc that was used has been tested in a wind tunnel later, and showed to bee in good condition. nevertheless it stayed in tow from about two seconds, to the rubber band snapped at about four seconds. good thing the altitude was there. the pc testing showed at that speed (after four sec.) a force around 400N. any rubber band on the bridle would exceed the pin tension by far in this situation.

never strap your bridle to anything with any kind of rubber band.

Thanks for the post, the life you saved might have been mine...

When I bought my rig last year, it came with those black rubber bands, and I really liked the feel and texture of them. I ran out of them and had been using the brown ones, but just kept forgetting to order some of the black ones. I sure enough would have bought some if I had seen them laying around somewhere. Now I know better.

It has me wondering about one of my openings though, 220' pca from a B, I seemed to open lower than normal, I wonder if it might have been a factor... I guess I'll never know for sure. Maybe TJ didn't give me a freefall assist afterall....

Ganja

Those.

BASE bridle attachments are very over-reinforced, though. I've put more than 100 static lines on a single canopy, and never had any attachment point wear issues.

Mr Han-Solo makes an excellent point. I think the main lesson learned from this jump should be:

Do not rubber band your bridle anywhere. While the multi is sheathed, it is basically an extension of your bridle.

I have never owned a multi set up, so my experience with the multi is limited, but I have seen multi-users s-fold the multi freely instead of using the rubber bands.

I dont like black rubber bands either.
I think this kind of PC in tow can happen with any color rubber band.

Cool, good feedback from the field (especially considering my new canopy is a Troll). Looking forward to reply re. brake settings on low SL jumps PM I sent you.

since?? i just got a pack whith tailgate rubberbands and shit and i got them black once... i never used them and never will.

I use the small brown rubberbands from skyworld cuttede in half..

Although I'm not second guessing the "black rubber band", or "multi" theories, (I personally have never liked either), I find it odd that no one has mentioned the delay...
Now...Just for sake of discussion, if there was enough altitude for a happy ending after a 3 1/2 second p/c in tow, is it possible that a longer delay (and a little more airspeed) might have made a difference?

base704
ncbase4

Sure it's possible. I watched the PC in tow and the parachute finally deployed 3/4s of the way down a 400 foot wall. If he'd taken 2 seconds it MIGHT not have hung up. On a 300 foot wall, (which is very common in Moab) he would be dead.

So would it matter of he took a delay? I don't know. The rubber band didn't release the bridle, the rubberband broke. It was no longer attached to the rig so the evidence was on the talus where the point of impact would have been.

The multi stows are the same as using a hesitater loop for a skydiving reserve. Hesitator loops are no longer used in the skydiving world so using a hesitater loop in the BASE world seems like a very bad idea. I thought that to be the case the first time I saw a multi stow. I've never used one and couldn't possibly suggest ever using the multi stow. If that multi really needs to go somewhere, then just put a flap of fabric inside the container where the multi stows would be and place it under it. It won't interfere with the bridle and a less than tidy or knowledgable packer will at least know how to cleanly contain the sheath.

The stows are there only to keep the Multi from interfering with the top of the canopy during deployment. It's only a problem with improperly controlled placement of the multi and the canopy.

Black rubber bands are way to strong. They've been known to cause problems on skydiving rigs. The sheath is a whole lot grabbier than microline so it stands to reason that black bands for a multi shouldn't have been suggested in the first place. My opinion is they shouldn't be there at all.

I don't use a multi so have no opinion about the actual device other than theoretical.

Absolutely I think. With more initial snatch from a nice 2 second delay, it may have popped right off... but, it was borrowed gear packed by someone else, not great wind conditions. So I think (can't speak for P) there was some gear fear there too.

I think that's an important "but" -- in my very very limited experience, seems like I have seen a few people take short/no delays in response to gear- or exit-point-nervousness, and I'm thinking that it's often the wrong response. I saw a few shrivel flaps take their time peeling after go and throws last weekend. Seems like a little speed can improve deployment by increasing instantaneous loading (snatch), and, of course, a little time puts you further from the object, both in terms of your trajectory, and sometimes because of the shape of the overhang. So, taking a little more delay improves your chances of a good deployment, even though it might seem counter-intuitive (since it's leaving you a little less time).

Maybe I'm either stating the obvious, or am mistaken somehow -- either case, maybe I'll learn from your responses.

One would think that the above would be enough to keep ones' feet on the rock...

A buddy of mine rented a Vertex and a Flik for BD. The canopy had the multi. When I was packing it I noticed the rubber bands (black) inside the container. So I grabbed the manual and found out there were the stow for the multi. The first thing that came into my mind was WTF! IMO stowing a bridle is asking for a death sentance in the BASE enviroment. I told the guy that I was only going to pack it with the bridle free-stowed and I removed the bands just in case he got ideas.

I don't like the multi: to me it maks absolute no sense.

Hey mate,If i didnt got any by any of my packs could you then throug 2-3 bags of them in. we cant get them here

sure we find out a way

thanks for posting my point

also i like the fact that the canopy is pulled up in 4 places rather than 1 sure it can prevent center cell stripping.

so you dont like the multi becourse of the rubberbands e´vry one says not to use?? that dont make sense.. You can easily use the multi whith out rubberbands just do whith the bridel as your used to.

I have freefallen 230 ft whith the multi closed(no rubberbands as i NEVER use them on the multi),using a 46 ´AV ZP pc whith no problems(i even did 6 of thouse jumps in 2 days)

Usaly i dont close the multi sub 250ft just like i open the pin flap on my Vertex sub 250ft(somtimes from 300).

One thing to considder is that i might(just me thinking out loud)think that a multi might could pull your canopy more offheadding in the case your unstabel as you pull,but i dunno if that thinking is wrong...

Im a big speaker of the multi its one of the reassons i jump Fox and Flik but i also cán see some of the cons from it...

In BASE, often deeper delays can be safer. It's very object dependent, and it's one of the things that makes skydiving mentality dangerous in BASE.

my question is center cell stripping really that bad??? My views are reflected in recent posts...........

I noticed jumping a Flik293 with VTEC from a heli a couple of weeks ago that if I would just wait a second longer the opening shock was greatly increased, meaning more energy dissipated over less time or faster opening. I have no way to compare time to distance.

For my first 6 or so jumps I was leaving a plane or waiting until I felt the air in my face from the heli before dumping and there was a noticeable jerk as the canopy inflated and then a settling as the slider came down and the air pressure inside vs. outside the canopy stabilized.

One jump I left at 2k and threw when I felt the air go calm, equillibrium between my fall rate and the rotor wind, and the opening shock from the inital inflation didn't happen. I looked over my shoulder to make sure I didn't have a problem and the canopy was filling with air, but not like the previous jumps.

While I know it took noticeably longer to inflate I don't have any quantitative data regarding the distance traveled.

A chart relating fall rate and distance traveled during opening for different canopies/configurations would be interesting.

A correct action in BASE is often counterintuitive. Most skydivers have a reflex to pull when things look low or crappy. Reflexes takes over logic under stressful conditions. Most BASE jumps create such conditions before they even begin, hence a common but very dangerous practice of dirty high pulls.

As Tom pointed out, safest delays depend on a particular site, but more often than not it will be close to the maximum delay possible. Object strike is a leading cause of death, so maximizing your distance from an object by taking the longest delay possible is often the best course of action. It also looks damn cool

Choosing the safest delay for a specific site is a perfect example of risk management, where conflicting considerations need to be balanced: object separation vs. altitude required for canopy opening, turning an off-heading and making LZ.

Now thinking about it, this is really funny: i usually take it lower when i'm scared. My reflexes have been completly reprogrammed over the years...

bsbd!

Yuri.

'taking the longest delay possible'

And then some in the case of Yuri my friend. It was fun watching ur slider coming down ur lines in Ostankino as you went past the tree-line into the lake.

Meeker

Not directly intended for meeker, but...

Am I supposed to be scared just reading some of this stuff?

Ganja

Sometimes the animal inside... well, you know.

Exactly.

Has anyone who's good at math calculated the increase in distance from an object when taking various length delays?

That would entirely depend on object profile and your launch.

I tried that recently but found out the formula I was using wouldn't work. I've been meaning to look for the right formula but havent' had time. Maybe I'll try this weekend. If I ever figure it out I'll post my results.

Object profile: within the mathematical model you could assume it was vertical (which certainly holds true of most B's, all A's, and many E's).

Launch: you could measure a standing jump and extrapolate from there.

I didn't say I knew enough math to do it, only that it is most likely possible to create a reasonable model.

Someone has done it somewhere. I don't remember if I read it on Blinc or here.

Someone assumed the average person launches at 3.2 mph at an angle of 30 degrees (or whatever; I'm making those numbers up) and they figured out the persons tragectory so they could find the distance from the object on different delays.

Do some searching and it might pop back up.

Actually, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Find out your horizontal speed on one of your normal exits and use that to find out the distance horizontally you've traveled after each second. Should be accurate to 3 or 4 seconds until air resistance slows your horizontal movement. At those slow speeds, it shouldn't affect you too much in the shorter delays (where tracking won't help anyway).

Lou

Oh, you meant the horizontal distance, not vertical.

Thanks for the great discussion on this. I've been using the black bands on my TG with no problems...so far. Also demo'd a multi in Moab and stowed it in the container with the black bands....and lived. Guess I was just lucky for those 8 jumps. I'll be throwing away all my black bands and using the brown ones.

Yup, as it tends to be the one that kills you (more people die from object strike than impact).

"All A's"

What about freestanders? They protrude out further the lower you get.

Yup, so I had a pilot chute in tow, as a result of a multi-band hangup. It was at the frozen pizza cliff, BR Prism, Fox 245, 42”, ¾ sec delay handheld. I ran off, pitched uneventfully, and nothing happened, except things got noisy and I got some really sweet ground rush into those rocks at the bottom… Right about when I was about to hit, I felt the rubber band break, and it felt like at Six Flags, when you get that drop into the harness and the ride was over… The canopy opened great, the canopy flight was normal, and the only damage was taken care of by Rauk lending me a pair of clean underwear… I still need to give those back…

Don’t have a lot to say about most of this. Although I spend most of my time at work trying to avoid it, there isn’t a lot to say about this. I would hate to smash into the rocks because of a stupid, black rubber band. If I took a longer delay, it might not have happened, since I was going to do another gainer, but I don’t think that a 50/50 chance for impact are good odds, unless you delay over 1 second using that setup…

If you have a multi, I would strongly recommend thinking about the stowage of the multi lines, either using the sheath, or brown bands. And if there are any BR reps on here, I think it would be a good idea to let a shout out and let people know what BR recommends for the multi setup.

That shiznit was scary…

Don't use any stows, black or otherwise on the multi, just s-fold it nicely

I was speaking in very general terms, but you are correct.

Hi All!

Just a quick note to let you all know that there will be new stuff posted on our website regarding the Multi, it's design intention, pros and cons, photos, and tech news on the rubber bands.

We did already mention to STOP using the black bands approximately 2 weeks ago (Tom, can you help me find that thread?) and switch to the beige skydiving bands.

I'm sorry that Peter had such a scary experience; I'm sorry that the person that loaned the rig did not have the new information; I'm sorry that the borrower/jumper did not check the pack job and ask questions on the unknown equipment; and I'm very happy that Peter lived.

Basic Research continues to stand behind all of it's products 100%, and would like to remind everyone that any equipment is unlikely to perform appropriately if it is not understood, rigged, packed, and used according to the manufacturers intentions. As far as any culpability issues go, probably 30% of the responsibility goes to the manufacturer to keep abreast of potential problems and educate it's users, 30% lies with the owner to maintain his gear to current industry standards, 30% lies with the jumper to check the gear before jumping it, and 10% lies with Lady Luck. Good thing for Peter, Lady Luck was on his side, since 60% of the mix was against him.

Again, we invite you to check out our website as early as this evening for news and information on this topic. And as always, our door is open for your visits, phone calls, or e-mails, and we sincerely encourage you to contact us on this issue or any other issue you may have questions about. Open communication and the sharing of knowledge is key to everyone having a fun, safe, and exhilarating experience in this crazy, wonderful world of BASE.

Sincerely,
Karen Thomas
Apex BASE Perris

Just an observation . Don't think i will be the one to tackle the math part either.

I'm just wondering why Basic Research continued to recommend those black bands for so long. The standard skydiving variety 1 1/4" bands (cut in half lengthwise) work exactly the way they're needed to. They're just strong enough to control the tailgate but they'll break rather than hang up.

Why did BR push the black rubberbands if nothing was gained by using them?

I've heard countless people talk about, "they're fine as long as you don't overlap them while... and as long as you trim them..."

That's not the answer. You shouldn't have to add steps to use a rubberband. You shouldn't add three of four items that can kill you.

BR knew there was a problem with those rubberbands and there were threads here talking about it. Reports from the field of tailgate hangups and other scary stuff.

Why didn't BR issue a press release telling the BASE community that there was a potential problem with the bands?

Most interesting to me is that BR decided to use a new type of rubberband when there was already a readily available one that works just fine. Was it an effort to have a "BASE-specific" rubberband? Was it an efort to make another $5 here and $5 there? Personally, the increased odds of a dangerous hangup far outweighs any of these perks for BR.

Please tell me that there was an actual reason for BR offering those black rubberbands.

Karen,

Thank you for your post, I am glad that Apex/BR posted officially to not use black bands. Also, please note that I have very little experience with the multi, as this was my first and last jump with one, and also that I would be dead if I was using this on anything less than 350'. Additionally, I have read the user manual for BR, since I often sit at work and read everything I can, and just checked the BR website owners manual again.

Section 4, MULTI, does not state anything about not using black bands. I did a search, and did not find anything here or on blinc about not using black bands. I also think that if there was anything on here, I would have read about it, but since I don't have a BR or multi, might very well have looked past it. However, it does still recommend on the BR website that rubber bands are to be used...

I was not trying to assign blame with my post. I did not try to divide blame into exact percentages- in fact, I am the only one responsible for myself and my equipment when I leave an exit point. I am grateful to you for retrofitting the container within 5 minutes of the incident. I have seen several other people using black bands on multis, and some even posted here that they do, and will stop. I hope that these posts will keep someone from making the mistake that I made.

Its all good, glad to be alive...

This message is not intended to be inflammatory. It is meant to simply point out my opinion and observations.

The message on an internet thread. I for one missed it completely which suggests a good majority of the people missed it as well. Threads get buried.

According to the known manufacturers recomendations, it was rigged correctly. There's common sense and there is by the book. According to the person who rigged it, it was by the book. I didn't see the bulletin so it stands to reason the bands are still in use by others who didn't.

My opinion is not to use multi stows at all. If the rig was mine, I'd have tested it over and over to see if I could make it hang up. Even after that, reasoning wouldn't allow them to be on the rig in the first place. Read my post above that mentions hesitater loops. Since the rig probably belongs to a person who's background isn't in manufacturing, there was no reason to perform such tests.

The black rubberband I saw was as wide as the standard mini rubberband cut in half. You cut it even further in half making it about 1/4 as wide as a standard mini rubberband. Seriously, that's a pain in the ass. Furthermore, since it's a problem, just do away with it all together.

The jumper did check the equipment. It was also checked by a person more familiar with the multi.

That's all for now.

I did my FJC with BR at the Perrine 3 years ago (or was it 4 years ago? I forget), and the BR staff recommended the black bands. During the course however, TomA happened to see me packing on the grass and said something to me like "I wish BR would stop using those black bands".

So even back then there seemed to be a contradiction between what BR was advocating, and practical reality. I don't understand BR's thinking here.

There could well be an economic incentive not to report problems, in the sense that it may dissuade people from buying their products.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there is no regulatory agency (such as the FAA) that has oversight over BASE equipment manufacturers. (If I'm wrong about that - please chime in.) In that sense, BR has no legal obligation to report problems.

Is this good or bad for BASE jumpers? I'd personally say it's bad, but I'm sure someone will jump on here in a minute at the mere mention of "the man" (ray? :-)

You are correct. BASE gear is totally unregulated. There's no rules or anything about BASE gear manufaturing.

I think BR would weigh the cost of admitting they were wrong about the rubberbands, vs the bad rap they'd get if someone was seriously hurt or killed from using a method they promoted. Which very nearly happened.

Hi Everyone....

First of all, I must apologize. The thread about the black bands was on BLINC magazine three weeks ago, not here. This is the link, I hope it goes clicky:

http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22392&highlight=black+bands

The black bands were originally brought into our product line because we found them to be superior in relation to the tail gate. Then, because we had them on hand, we began using them in other areas, such as the multi. When it became clear that the black bands may be hazardous in relation to the Multi, we immediately stopped recommending their use, we bought other bands for that application, and began putting the new bands into our products. This occurred about 3 weeks ago. We did not give one single thought to the cost of this band or that band, NOT ONE! It is quite insulting for anyone to think that we would jeopardize a person's life to make an extra 5 bucks here and there by selling black rubber bands. If we had so little concern for safety and were that greedy, I'm sure BR would have folded long ago from pure bad karma.

When you guys say such things, I hope you realize that you are completely dissing some of the people that have given their lives to making this sport safer and more fun for everyone. They don't drive Porches or BMW's, or live in fancy houses. They live more modestly than most of the jumpers they cater to. We are all just people enjoying an extreme sport, and a rare few have made it their livelihood, not from greed, but from love of the sport. To think otherwise is pretty much sacrilege, IMHO.

A press release is a good idea, and it will be done.

The one thing I wish everyone agreed upon is that we are all on the same side here. We all want to savor the freedom of jumping off things and feeling more alive than any other humans on Earth. It saddens me when these discussions degenerate into insults, attacks, and laying blame. The fact is that we are all personally responsible for our choices, be it driving too fast, smoking cigarettes, not doing gear checks, or jumping antennas in low fog. All of these things can kill you, is anyone to blame? Yes, the person that made the decision.

Basic Research, now known as Apex BASE Perris, will continually strive to better it's products and services, discover or invent better ways of doing things, educate the jumpers that are affected, and listen to the feedback we receive from the field. Your input is vital to this process. Please continue to contact the developers and manufacturers of BASE gear and give them your thoughts. If you see something that looks dangerous, mention it! And please, remember that as businesses, gear makers don't have all the time in the world to surf the Boards. Please make the effort to contact the manufacturers directly, rather than wait for a post on a Board to come to their attention. I say this for all the manufacturers, not just Apex. In order for BASE to be as safe as possible, we need to continually communicate with each other and make calculated changes as the need arises.

And finally, if all does go wrong and you go in, will you regret your decision to jump? If you can't handle that possible eventuality, then you probably shouldn't be in BASE. After all, it is a life-threatening avocation, no matter how safe the gear, the site, the conditions, etc. Every time you jump you take your life into your own hands. For me, that is the bottom line that leaves me feeling free, empowered, exhilarated, and at peace with my own destiny.

Be safe, have fun, and soft landings!

Karen Thomas
BASE #763
Apex BASE Perris
Basic Research, Inc.

Nope, but here you go.

Clicky

Agreed. But I know enough to make educated decisions. I have made an educated decision to NOT use the black rubber bands because I've felt (for years, not three weeks) that they're unsafe. Many of the people who use your gear don't spend as much time as I have researching the sport and doing year upon year of reading, talking to very experienced jumpers, and researching the physics involved in our sport.

When you teach a new jumper, especialy in a FJC, to use the black rubberbands, what do you think he/she will do when jumping out in the field? They typically don't have the experience required to determine for themselves whether a subtle detail like that could possibly be fatal. That comes with experience and learning from a mentor.

The black rubberbands were in use for years. What happened that BR suddenly reversed their view on them?

When the largest BASE equipment manufacturer recommends a certain method, that carries a tremendous weight in the field, especially among younger jumpers who rely on that info to be safe out there.

Had that rig been taken of a slightly lower exit point, we'd be discussing this in a fatality thread. That's pretty serious.

I've only jumped my multi once, but I wasn't impressed enough to use it since. I have looked at those little stow points inside the container, though. If you think about it, the stow points are restraining the bridle after the container itself is already open. That means the canopy is free to move about (even exit the container) while the bands are still releasing. Maybe I am just overthinking it, but it seems to be just one more thing that could really fuck up my day.

Karen,

Thanks for taking the time to put yourself in the line of fire. I am sure you understand not much usefullness comes from this board in these situations. As we can see from the posts people enjoy sticking poking and repoking the dead horse. We are glad that peterK lived.
I hope that all the manufactures take some time to update thier pages as soon as possible, as we all need GOOD current info. I know I would rather get it from your site than a thread on this board.

I am currently jumping a Reactor4 and fox 245 with multi and vents. I dont use the stows.

Au contraire.

I really think this is a situation where a quick, widely read (in a geographic sense) communication medium (such as this) can be very advantageous. Karen's use of this forum to spread what is essentially a safety bulletin from a gear manufacturer is probably one of the highest, best uses for it.

I'm guessing that they thought, at the time, that they were superior for the purposes. Making incremental advances (and the accompanying missteps) is the way that all of our gear gets better in the long run.

I doubt they were trying to make money off them (even the "expensive rubber bands cost, what, 20 cents a piece?).

This kind of thing happens all the time in other industries (like skydiving, but also things like automobiles). Something makes it all the way through prototyping and field testing, gets released, and only after it's in use in the real world does it get enough use to reveal a problem.

Just because some folks in the field think something is dangerous isn't generally sufficient justification for recalling it. In general, that's reserved for (a) when the manufacturer decides it was a bad idea, or (b) when it is demonstrably unsafe, usually resulting in an accident of some kind.

BASE gear manufacturing is a small, and not terribly lucrative field. You can't really expect a BASE company to do as much testing as a car company, for example. Even General Motors has safety recalls.

Would every one please put all black rubber bands in a envelope.
Mail to my house....thank's

Tom,
I agree with you completely. I was not trying to say that Karen's reply was misplaced. I am glad that she did post. This SHOULD be a place for the spread of information.
Unfortunately that good information is overshadowed by posts just trying to "BEAT the dead horse". instead of saying thanks Karen. we get post such as why didnt you tell us sooner, or other BLAH.


Thanks Karen for the info.

Thanks guys, for your support. This does really suck.

Ray, I have pounds of the black bands left, how many do you want?

Russel, I will still be using the black bands on my Tailgate WHICH IS THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THEM TO BEGIN WITH. Has anywone had problems with them on the Tailgate besides BelNic?

In any case, all is well that ends well. Y'all can use your tight black bands to shoot your pal in the ass when his back is turned, or to train your cat or dog or kid. Hey, if some smart carpenter out there wants something to do, he could design a rubber band gun that uses these black bands. I have other ideas, but probably not ones that would pass the moderator....(use your imagination...)

I'm going home. It has been a loooonng day..
K

Hi Karen --

In my opinion, the black rubber bands are not suitable for tailgates either. The black bands are much stronger and it takes considerably more force to break them. If a black band were to get hung up on a tailgate during an opening sequence, it may take longer for it to break or it may not break at all. Granted, it's highly unlikely that a rubber band could get hung up, but if it does, why not have a rubber band that will break?

Bottom line: I cannot see why someone would want to use a black rubber band.

I suspect that the trend started as a way to make rubber bands last longer if your rubberband is girth-hitched onto the tailgate. I personally do not like girth-hitching the rubber band because I see it as a potential hang-up point as the rubber band tries to roll off during the opening sequence. It's a highly unlikely scenario, but I'm all about the odds...

It's all personal choice, but for me, I cannot see any advantage to using a black rubber band in BASE. I only see disadvantages. Until I discover something different, it's brown bands only for me.

Bryan

Any rocket scientists out there jumping.....I think not. Seems that black rubber bands are just a natural progression in a minority, unfunded sport.
Instead of throwing "rocks" how about a solution? Maybe a clip(s) with pre-calculated release tensions, that replace the band and tailgate? Ok, so they will cost more and probably fly off under opening but my life and fun in this sport is sure worth a few bucks per jump. Apex, build them and I will buy.

or just don't use a tailgate.

That works, until it doesn't!

Dude, did you really just resurrect a 10 year old thread to try to argue about things that these people may not even think any more?

For real?

Yeah, just like everything else

No argument.