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I have just ordered a Gargoyle and have a few questions about the closing flap. I have only seen a handful of Gargoyles in the flesh and thought that the flaps seemed very secure and tight. What are the opinions on low freefalls with the flap closed? I would be inclined to leave it open on low jumps but read somewhere that someone believed that this may cause a hesitation, which I thought was strange. If anyone with experience with this container (especially low jumps handheld) has an opinion I would certainly appreciate it.

on 40 ish jumps from 306ft I have always had mine closed. even when taking 1.5-2 sec delays...
but note I only have 53 base jumps so mind me none at all

I think Tom A. says to leave it closed since it won't restrict the opening at all. I think he also thinks it's more dangerous to open the flap. You might want to PM him.

I just had a conversation on the phone with, Robert Jones today about
pounds of pull and pin tension on single and double pin containers.
I was asking advice for construction purposes. He has pull tested that container.
Packed under all body positions. And some you don't want to have at pull time.
He told me he try's to keep the, pull-pound in the low 20's or less with flaps closed.
at bridal extension. ( measured on a pull, spring scale.)
Low 20 lbs. or less is pretty good. I would not worry.
He builds a top-notch container system.
I don't see any Gargoyle owners going in.

Cool. That's good to know.

What about freefalling under 200ft? Would people still leave the flaps closed?

I also have heard nothing but good things about the Gargoyle. I was pretty close to ordering one myself but I went with Asylum.

I own a Gargoyle but have not done any really low FF's. From everyone I have talked to, you should leave the flaps closed no matter how low you go!
What I have heard of is replacing the closing loops with spectra loops for reduced friction/tension during really low stuff.

Yo!

I'd say give Rob a call, but I 'believe' they recommend keeping the flap closed on all jumps, hence the name "no tension flap". I saw him freefall a 220' B and I'm pretty sure he had the flap closed but that is pure speculation as I had already exited via him holding my PC tightly I've never made a jump on my gargoyle with the flap open, from all altitudes. Once you get it in hand, get it packed and get yourself a fish scale, that way you can experiment with different pull tensions vs body positions etc....basically it will all make sense when you get the rig.
Seriously, call Morpheus, Rob will gladly share his wisdom in my experience, and believe me, I had a TON of questions that he more than answered. Congrats on your new purchase, I'm sure you'll be pleased.
Later
Blair

I'd agree with comments previously posted in this thread, I've never even thought about opening the flap of my Gargoyle since it says in the owners manual that do not open it, even when doing low FF's. The flap is designed that way that it doesn't restrict the opening sequence. Lowest I've done (FF) with my gargoyle is 80m (~240ft) and several times under 300ft, all flap closed and no problems what so ever.

Another Gargoyle question, this time bridle routing (maybe should be another thread, I'll leave that to Tom....)

I've heard that some people are routing their bridle from the centre of the of the pack job in-between the pin placement, rather then out the top-right of the container - anyone doing this, or has thoughts on it? I've played with it a little at home; nothing particularly scientific, just seeing how it opens pulling the bridle from various angles.
I will give Rob a call and get his opinion too...

I would be inclined to open it too, maybe try a few go n' throw's at the OH, closed and open, and see if there's a difference.

.......

whatever way you closing the gargoyle or any 2-pin rig will work.
I doing so, that the bridle going from the middle out to the top loop and than to bottom loop. You can also close it ( for low altitude) so that you go from the middle to bottom and than to top loop.
All working very well.

regards

No matter which rig i would open the pin flap while freefalling sub 200ft envioment.

I also has a Gargoyle and had some of the same Q´s aswell as i got it..
Personaly i will keep it closed until aprox 220ish ft frefalling below that i will open it and make sure my pins are primed,even whith Spectra loops

I never SLéd my container yet,just done making the brakes on my new canopy that fits in it(i jumped my older canopy in this harness before that),but my guess is that it makes no dif to let it be open or closed as 80lbs breakcord should beabel to pull it open..

Tom A showed me this at the potato bridge and I did about 12 with it - it works!! They were all stowed so it was middle-top-bottom.

Looks better with no loop hanging out the top. The slack from the bridle attachment to the first pin is huge so that's not an issue.

There is more slack floating around under the flap to make me paranoid but it stays where it is when you close the flap.

For some unaccountable reason, the thought of doing it middle-bottom-top for hand-held is scaring me at the moment - it should work just the same?


Jules

He did PM me, well before posting this. I was just too lazy to get off my butt and answer him.

Here's some thoughts:

1) I'd leave the pin flap of the Gargoyle closed for every jump.

The "crossover" style pin cover flap used on the Gargoyle puts no tension on either the pin or bridle, as far as I can tell. I have no concerns at all that leaving the flap closed could cause any sort of hesitation. I believe the idea of opening the flap is a habit developed by jumpers using other (and earlier to market) rigs with the "wrap around" style of pin cover flap. With some of these rigs, the flap closed tight enough to put pressure on pins and/or bridle, so some of the manufacturers recommended opening the pin flap at low altitude. This is not an issue with the Gargoyle, but jumpers habits are hard to break, so we still see people opening "crossover" style pin flaps.

My experience, with my particular Gargoyle (which is a pretty early one) was that if I left the pin flap open, I could create a noticeable increase in required opening force on the top pin under some very few special circumstances. Basically, you'd have to have flailed the exit on a go and throw for this to matter (and essentially pitched on your side). But if the pin was pointed to the side (in the classic "smile" or "frown" that some people prefer for whatever reason), and the bridle pulled taut to that same side, I measured (on a table) increases in pin tension to over 30 pounds.

I reported this to the manufacturer at the time, and I also made several other comments about the rig (for example, I hated the first riser cover design). I have noticed that Morpheus has addressed all my other issues (in fact, had done so almost immediately), and continues to make improvements to the rig. I very much doubt that a current Gargoyle would experience this problem (although I have not had a chance to test a newer Gargoyle to know for certain).

2) I have been routing my Gargoyle bridle out the middle (middle-top-bottom) for several hundred jumps now with no problems. I was originally shown this method by Douggs, who also reported good results with it. I feel that it is well enough field-proven (by many jumpers, myself among them) to recommend this routing. It avoids the annoying bridle flap at the top, as well as guaranteeing that you cannot trap the bridle in the top flap and create a pin lock malfunction. Note that I have not tested this routing with a "wrap around" style pin flap, and would not recommend it for that style of rig at this point (because I'd have some concern about the bridle binding inside the sharp bend of the pin cover flap).

3) I have also routed the bridle middle-bottom-top for hand held jumps. I have only done this a very limited number of times (less than 10), but so far have had good results. I don't feel that I have sufficient experience with the method to recommend it.

Tom, so basically, bridle coming out of the middle (between pins), and the first pin from the attachemnt point going to the bottom of the container, second to top, and just close the flap. I assume still keep the flap closed, and act as if nothing different about the jump ? Anything that can be overlooked in that situation ?

I've got a Vertex which has a wrap around closer and I tired it this way at Bridge Day this last year. I brought the bridle out the middle, to the top then bottom (stowed). I've only done it that way for one jump but it worked even when I went head down and then did a flip.

Tom do you dare to give a reweiv of the Gargoyle in the frefall sub 200ft envioment.if this aint the place then please pm me

That's basically what I've done.

You could probably also route out the bottom, then go back up the pins, as long as you didn't pinch the bridle in the bottom flap. I haven't done that, though.


Sure. That's why they call it overlooking. I really don't have enough data to analyze it very well. In other words, I don't know what can be overlooked, because I haven't had that problem yet.

Short answer: I think it's the best thing going right now for that. Be sure to switch out the loops for the low stuff.

I don't have time for the long answer. Maybe later...

Think he has already done that cos of the amount of faffing around I had to do to get him the loops - 'pparently Denmark is still in the stoneage (at least I believe that, having met Faber).

I'll be here... waiting... patiently...

yes mate cheers for handling me the loops,even as they werent spectra

i would say the same,but then i think of the UK and they should then be monkeys(but thinking back at Ivan,his loong arms and hary body,im probaly right...).

Hi All-

Russel mentioned that he brought his bridle out the middle of the flap, then set the top pin, then the bottom pin. Todd and I played around with this configuration and found it to be workable.

It is better for the longer tracking dives to have the bridle routed out the center, as it is then NOT near the top of the pin flap and susceptible to the air stream.

It is not as good for head high attitude deployments.

Make sure to leave plenty of slack that you lay on top of the pins and secure by tucking in the pin flap.

Be careful to NOT tuck the bridle with the pin flap, especially around the lower end of the pin flap.

K

PS...this applies to the Vertex and Vertex 2, as we don't have a Gargoyle to play with.

just buy one then you have

Note i jump both Vertex and Gargoyle and happy on both containers..(they both have pros and cons)

I don’t have my rig in front of me but I think it’s impossible to bring it out the center and NOT tuck the bridle with the pin flap on a Vertex. If you don’t tuck the bridle with the pin flap that means the bridle has to be on the outside of the flap. If that’s the case you can’t get the pins in.
I don’t know how to explain that very well. I’ll try to go home and play around with it and take some pictures.

example pic

ADD: I am just posting this to show the closeing sequence.

But it's not Gargoyle, but french Zak. Problem is it has wrap around flap, so if I remember correctly previous statements in this thread, it could cause hesitation.

I think I see what you're saying...

K also said:
Maybe she meant to be careful to keep the slack on top of the pins and not to tuck any of of it under with the pin flap?

Useful thread. Thanks!!!

This thread has a good picture of what I'm refering to. Clicky
If you look at the picture you see that when you close the pin flap you will end up with some of the bridle between the pin flap (the part that wraps under with the stiffener in it) and the top flap. There's no way around it. Tom A. mentioned (if I recall correctly) that's why he liked the containers where the pin flap doesn't get tucked under because you can bring the bridle out the center and not pinch it between the pin flap and the top flap.
Wow, this seems really hard to describe for some reason.

today i test pulled my Gargoyle(spectra loops)
whith closed flap i had to pull whth 1,65kg as max to open flap and pop the loops(max=no matter which way i pulled)

Whith open flap it requred 0.75kg to pop the loops.

im no longer afraid to keep the flap closed.

NOTE: i have trimmed my rigs(didnt pull test my Vertex yet which only has regular loops)to the low envioment.I havnt pull tested my gear before now,i have only jumped my gear on feeling.
Spectra loops are meant for the LOW envioment!!!