Basejumper.com - archive

now that the whole NC story settles, perhaps we can go back to discussing BASE jumping ....

a certain building. ~~ 252 ft to the landing area as you look at it, 186 feet to the bottom of the buildign - obviously we would like to open fast and fly long.

an anchor point, about 2 feet from the edge. Seems solid, but feels a bit weary. Basically, it will definately hold throught getting a line stretch, but we have doubts it can hold on through too many 80lb pulls needed to break the cord.

The cord is 7 strands - realistically we percieve if we cut a few ( to be determined ) strands, the breakforce needed is lowered, thus lessening the pull on the anchor point ( a 1 ft pole sticking out of the roof ).

The question : is it advisible ? If so, how many strands can be cut to still ensure a safe linestretch ? ( i.e. - how much pull does it take to open a 2 pin rig and get the canopy to line stretch).

Please post your thoughts/suggestions. Keep the flames in the other thread :)

thank you.

P.S.
jumper1 Vented Flik 293/Vertex - going PCAd
jumper2 Fox 245/Gargoyle - going SL

If it breaks off, will it fall on your head and hurt? Or fall through your canopy and damage it (or knock it off heading?)? Serious stuff to think about.

I'd take a long piece of 1" tubular webbing (about 40 cents a foot a climbing shop), and tie it to a more solid anchor further back. Then static line off of that. You might want to tie it up into a "take along" static line, depending on how much webbing you have to use (obviously, you don't want a 40' tail hanging off you).

I'd definitely try to get it back afterward, if you don't take it along. But I'd take leaving it there (and potential damage to site access) over dropping a heavy anchor through my canopy/body.

I don't know much but if I was even a little worried about my SL anchor breaking off I would find something else to use. I agree with Tom, tubular webbing at a climbing store is cheap. You can pick some up (here where I live) for $0.25/ft.

You guys misunderstood me. I am not worried about the anchor point giving on this jump, I am worried about the fact that it can loosen up after a few jerks. I am 100% sure this one time it will hold with no visible damage or ill effects.

The other point I was trying to get some help on was that the breakcord is 80lbs - i don't think it takes anywhere close to that force to get linestretch - so why not minimize the impact on the anchor if the anchor is the weakest link in this system ??? Again, these are my thoughts, and if they are wrong, I would like for somebody to point that out, and especially let me know WHY they think/determine so.

tnx !

Hello --

I believe Tom A., as well as the folks at Basic Research, did some research several years ago on the amount of pull force needed. I can't seem to find the threads, so I'm recalling this off of memory and my numbers may be incorrect.

I want to say that somewhere in the neihborhood of 20 to 35 lbs was needed. However, it is important to note that there are SEVERAL variables that can drastically change this number. Some of these variables are (but not limited to): container being used, closing tension of the pins or velcro, size and weight of canopy, body position of the jumper, what your static-line is tied to, and even the wind can effect the amount of force needed.

Bottom line, it would be real hard to narrow it down to a specific force each and every time.

80lb breakcord provides slightly more force than is needed, but in my opinion, that is a good thing. Even with that, 80lb breakcord has failed before, so it is not 100% foolproof.

Personally, I would not cut strands on the 80lb breakcord to reduce its strength. If you really feel that less force is needed, maybe you could look into getting 50lb or 60lb breakcord for your project. Before using lesser breakcord, I'd make sure that I could get away with an unexpected freefall from this object in case the lesser breakcord prematurely breaks.

You may also want to send an email (or phone call) to Apex Sports. The former BR folks may possibly have more experience than anyone in the static-line department and they might be able to provide more insight to your question.

Good luck with your project!

Bryan

My opinion is that if I was SLing a 186' to impact building, I would want a very secure anchor that I had no doubt about, and at least 2 pieces of break cord.

I get scared enough looking at one piece of fresh 80lb cord, at 220'.

If this idea of using cut break cord onto a rickety anchor doesn't work at 186', things will suck pretty quickly for you...

Could somebody explain to me how you attach a static line/PC to an object so that the PC holds through line stretch and initial deployment but then 'breaks free' without damaging the PC.
Im not asking to put it into practice !! I have just seen it a few times on video and wonder how its done......
Are there ever any issues with the PC/bridal not releasing and causing some sort of hangup or deployment problems?
just interested.......

vid666,

The other reason you don’t want to cut the break cord is because of dynamic force. I was taught about dynamic force and static line jumps when I took BR’s FJC a few years back. I don’t know the best explanation for dynamic force, but it is basically what “bps” stated in his post. You may be able to determine the weight needed to open the container and extract the parachute in perfect conditions, but there are too many variables that can change the pull force needed. The example that BR gave in their cours was to tie a 5lb weight to 80lb break cord and drop the weight from the height of a table, the 80lb break cord will break… The cord breaks because of dynamic force that is created from the acceleration of the 5lb weight. So it may only be 5 lbs but with acceleration it excerpts more pull force than 80lbs. Same thing when you are doing a static line jump. In a perfects scenario it may only take 20-30lbs to extract the parachute, but how much pull force are you really putting on that 80lb break cord on every jump???


Speaking of break cord... And I apologize for going off topic... But, I'm running out of my supply of break cord and I was wondering if anyone know where you can get break cord, other than a BASE manufacture/Rigger? I’m hoping to find somewhere easy like a hardware store …

Thanks,

...

SBCmac

???
http://www.paragear.com/...e.asp?group=33#T1055

?

Awesome!!! Thanks ...

SBCmac

Isn't that one of the advantages of a velcro rig compared to a pinned rig? More consistant pull force?

If you're a bit wary of your anchor, you could try putting in a climbing bolt.

Well, you can get some from me. If you ever get your ass over to our place. I'll even put out some beer to see if I can lure you over.

Want to hang out and make a jump this weekend?

mate.. you want a canopy outso you can fly and land in the safe LZ,a 80lbs brakcord dont dameged your gear now why would you then give your self more bad odds to making it safe to LZ?

Personaly i jump whith a back up break cord each time i jump SL.(2 peices of 80lbs brekcord,one longer than the other) plus my min. 45 pc.

at this point i have no # on how many SL jumps i made so far,but can tell that my setup never failed or dameged my gear due a jump(my latest acsident aint to blame my gear,only me..).

i will strongly recomend you NOT to use weaker breakcord..

Hey bro ...

Well I'm jumping my new little sweet spot this weekend if you want to join me... And it's near your part of the woods. It would be great if you could join me. I pretty much plan on being there from sun rise to sun set on both Saturday and Sunday. And the weather is supposed to be nice all weekend... So bring your packing tools, some warm cloths (layers preferably) and come out and play ...

I’ll E-mail you the details…

Just awesome… This weekend is going to be so much fun, can’t wait …


SBCmac

.........anybody?

Zoter,

There are several ways to do it; this may be why people are hesitant to answer... Not to mention, if done incorrectly (and even when done correctly) SL jumps can fail/release prematurely. So again this may be why people are hesitant to provide an answer. An example of how difficult of an answer in what you’re asking is like asking people how they fold their PC’s… Theirs the general concept, but everyone does their own thing that they think makes it open better… So please do plenty of homework prior to coming to a conclusion in how you go about doing SL jumps…

I was hoping that BR still had their diagram on their site but they don't. I also went to CR's site and couldn't find anything on their site either. I'll post the way I do it but again realize that just like everything, everyone has their way of doing things. So I'm simply going to provide the way I do it, which is more or less the general concept...

I'm at work so it's going to take me a little bit to draw up a raw diagram...

...

SBCmac

P.S. Again remember, I’m only showing you one of many different techniques…

And not to mention, their are a lot more people that have more experience than me with SL... So those people please help me guide this person in the right direction. I'll at least provide the theory on one technique and maybe people can expand on it...

Thanks ...

You always risk some PC damage. You have to try to adjust PC hang location to the specific anchor point (and snag hazards).

I wrote up a "how to static line" bit a while ago. It's on another computer, but I'll see if I can find it and post it this afternoon.

Or maybe DexterBASE still has it floating around?

Tom, SBCMac....
Thanks....Im just looking for the general 'principles' as I have no knowledge of it whatsoever....
And as already stated....its just for my own clarity...I m not going to try it !...so whatever you got is all good ...
cheers

Zoter,

Ok... Again I don't know how to draw so I hope you can understand the attached diagram ...

Also, I'm more or less just trying to at least demonstrate the concept. So please do more research and talk to people with a lot of SL experience before attempting a SL jump.

The one thing that the diagram doesn’t demonstrate is how you manage your bridle when standing at exit point. I personally “S” fold the bridle and use a rubber band to manage the access that is left over. Again be careful how you manage your bridle; there are many things that can go wrong with just your bridle… Again, get advice from others that have lots of experience on how they manage their bridle….

I can’t say it enough… Do your research and ask people questions, then come to a conclusion on what will work for you…

I hope I helped a little …

SBCmac

If I can find it I'll post it. I'll look.

Edit: ~elapsed time:10 minutes... I have no idea where I put it. I know I have it around somewhere. Probably won't be able to find it for a while.

Thats a great picture...thankyou....
So from the diagram I am assume that the break cord 'breaks' (duh !) "releasing the PC and Bridal attached to the PC.
Does the bridal attached to the structure serve a purpose?...ie is it designed to be able to break should a problem occur with the 'break cord' attachment.
On alot of the videos I have seen the canopy is released from the container and the lines at line stretch before the PC is released ( ie before the break cord breaks).........if thats the case...why do you even need a PC attched on these jumps?
Couldnt you attach the canopy bridle to the structure via the break cord directly?

Excuse an idiots naiveity if there is a simple answer to these questions

The purpose of the webbing/rope/bridle/spectra sling/other stuff tied to the rail, is to keep the breakcord itself away from the anchor point. If the rail or beam or whatever is sharp or rough or has a small radius, and you tie the breakcord to it directly, the breakcord could part at a much lower load than desired. This could leave you in freefall with a closed container at a very low altitude. You want the breakcord attached until you're at linestretch- all the way at linestretch- before it parts.

Let the super, overkill, strong piece of webbing take the abuse of the rusty jagged handrail and let the breakcord do it's job.

Using a sling wrapped around the anchor point gives you more consistancy. When you're getting low, consistancy is the name of the game.


Edit:clarity

Hi All!

Right off the bat, I would recommend the person asking the question be very wary of weakening their break cord. If it breaks prematurely and your canopy is not deployed, you'll be in a very dangerous position.

I also have always used 2 loops of break cord, one tied tightly and the other a larger loop, so they break one at a time, one after the other. I will also always leave a minimum 45 ZP pilot chute on the end of the bridle. Pilot chute damage is not a concern for me on a static line jump; my life is definitely worth the $70 replacement value for the p/c.

We are updating our website right now, and there is an excellent piece in the Tech News about a new bridle extension. This was created specifically for the Superbowl jumps, where we did NOT want any accidents to occur. Basically, this extension gives you 2 places to tie break cord, so you have 2 completely separate attachments to ensure deployment. This along with your pilot chute gives you 3 chances for deployment on a static line jump. Overkill? Probably not. It only takes on failed break cord loop to end your life.

Break cord and the bridle extensions are available at Apex BASE Perris. Break cord is 50 cents a yard. Our phone number is 951-940-1324.

Be safe, have fun, and soft landings!
(oh, and reliable static lines, as well!)
Karen

 
>>Is it true you started making break-cord to keep MM from SL'ing stuff with peices of string he pull-tested?

Does Apex have a web site yet? (Or are you talking about www.basicresearch.com?)

Explained well and understood.......thanks

Here it is. Note that this is a couple years old, and isn't quite how I'd do it now. For example, I really like the "two loops" (one tight, one loose) method Karen described, above, and it's not even mentioned here.

This was a question that I was asked via PM... I'm not putting the name until the person gives me the permission to... Awesome question though ...


This was my reply back:


...

SBCmac

In addition to what I posted... The PC is only attached for back up reasons anyway. That's another reason why the small 250lb connector link shouldn't be a problem...

Just thought I'd throw that out there too ...

SBCmac

try this...
just lark's head the static line to your anchor point.

I edited your post to take out the name.

We PM'd and I said it was cool to post my question and name. Oh well...It was MEEEE!

Thanks anyway Tom.

base704,

Thanks for the pic…

I have a question that is very similar to the question that pBASEtobe asked me…

First, my own thoughts on your setup… I like your setup for high profile objects because all you leave behind is the static line, and you’re probably only going to use the static line once. And I also larks-head my static line to the anchor point, at exit point. But let’s say for objects that you jump continuously, does having the break cord directly on the static line weaken the static line? Or, do you just monitor its wear and tear like you do the rest of your equipment? And as far as the break cord goes, does having the static line directly on the break cord increase the risk of premature release?

I ask the above questions because here is the reasoning behind my setup… I use two connector links for two reasons… The first being, I like the idea of having the surfaces on both sides of the break cord consistent, round and smooth surface. The second reason being, when doing jumps back to back on a low profile object, all I need to do to hook up my second rig is to keep pre-tied break cord around. So it's as simple as inserting the pre-tied break cord between the two connector links at exit point, instead of having to tie the break cord to the static line that is already at exit point from the previous jump.

base704 - Again thanks for your input and the picture you posted…

…

SBCmac

SBCmac...

First off: thanx..although I'm only sharing what I was taught.

The idea behind this set-up is the fact that it's disposable. The connector link goes with you, so it can be, and is re-used, while the static line itself is (in most cases) a one shot deal. I don't get too concerned about recovering the s/l, as it is nothing more than "used" suspension line saved from a friends Mojo when he had it re-lined. The amount of line salvaged from one canopy is enough for a fuck-load of s/l jumps, and is quite cost-efficient. I keep a handful of pre-made static lines in my carry on "fag-bag"( fanny pack?), and also keep a fair amount of extra line in said bag in case I need to lengthen the s/l for any reason (distant anchor points). In this case I just make another "loop" out of suspension line, and larks head it to a pre-made s/l and, in turn larks head it to the object.
Feel free to insert your favorite disclaimer here, as I (like most people) consider myself a test jumper on every jump.
Hope this answers your questions. If not, feel free to flame me/ask me to clarify...

TJ
base704
ncbase4

Why would I flame you, you're providing awesome input!!! So again, thanks for your input ...

...

SBCmac (Michael)

As well as damage to the bridle attachment point on your canopy. I'm especially happy to have a multi on SL jumps.

The Basic Research website is truly updated. It has quite a few new things there.

Apex BASE does not have a website yet. The actual DATE is Jan 1, I believe, so we're working to have everything in place for the switch then.

I'm practicing now with answering the phone. You'd be surprised how deeply ingrained something can become after 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, for three years....

K

which i dont like about 704´s setup... i do like to leave an exit point whith as less or nil evidence at ALL.Thats why i use the carry on SL the only thing i leave at sight is the broken breakcord and the 2 rubberbands i use(one on the tailgate and one on the bridel),the SL is secured to my bridel and i only loose it in case i get a hangup(of the SL)which then will be "cuttedeaway" be the breakcord i have cecured it whith.. i never had a hang up and therefore never lost my SL...

Do a search here on the carry on SL and you will find more info on this setup.

PS.ALWAYS have minimum a 45´pc as a backup and then i also use 2 loops of breakcord each time i jump(the one on my SL which never breaked yet wont need to be replaced..)..

This is an old thread but I would like to post a pic of my SL set up.

your setup is ok for objects were you can go back and get the items(the carabiner and 6mm rope),if not your leaving more than footprints

I still think the carry on SL is one of the best inventions so far(keeping it low price you´ll like it aswell)

You're right I should have been more specific

Here is my "carry on" set up.

nice one BUT,please considder to use a peice of breakcord between the bridel and your carry onsl,that way you can "cut away" your setup incase it hangs up some were.
You´ll only need 1 peice if you put on a conectorlink or carabin at the bridel,thatway you dont need to cut the breakcord after a jump

I see your point.

I'd rather use two pieces of breakcord at the bridle attachment point so it won't break first.

thats why you should make the sling as an Y one of the legs should be shorter than the other leg,tie your single breackcord there and 2 on the one thats meant to break

Hey 903, I just love your carry-on S/L set-up but I can see one problem with it.

You have the load travelling AROUND the anchor point and back down the "off" side where the break-cord is. This is essentially a pulley setup giving a mechanical advantage that HALVES the load on the break-cord. That means you need 160lb of pull to apply 80lbs of force to the break-cord. This force required would increase even more if the anchor point isn't smooth allowing free travel of the line.

A simple solution would be the addition of a break cord on the "pull" side in the series. This would still provide the "carry-on" effect no matter which cord breaks 1st - and I think you'd find that this added cord WOULD be the one to break 1st.

Just my 0.02

985

PS - I LOVE electrical tape

I hate to be the one to 'break' this to you, but:

this setup will only add the force generated by the friction of pulling around the anchor point to the force required to break the cord

even with a stock standard textbook SL setup, you will need 160lb of force on the bridle to break the 80lb break-cord

if you are sensible about picking a suitable anchor point for nicknitro's setup, I couldn't see it adding too much to the 160lb force required

but what do I know? I only had two physics courses in my engineering degree....

cheers
sam

OK guys take a look at this pic.

Line 1 and 2 do not slide on anything and they are connected to the bridle extention via one breakcord loop; there is no pully action!

Line 3 is there only if either 1 or 2 gets trapped some where so to avoid damage to the canopy or worse. If everything goes OK line 3 stays connected to the bridle and pulls 2 around and away from the attachment point after the cord has broken.

I do not see how 160 LB are needed to break the cord.

I ought to ban you for a pun that bad.

(But you're going to give him a break, just this once.)

80lb break cord breaks is 'calibrated' and tested to break at 80lbs of force, that is a single strand of the cord

when you tie that single strand into a loop, you have distributed the force applied evenly to two strands of break cord, assuming it can slide a bit around the tie-in points to equalise the load

therefore, 2 x 80 lb = 160 lb

until about a minute ago I never checked for myself what the break cord I have tests at and as I could not find a scale nearby, I just rigged up something like my standard staticline setup, a girth-hitched (around the anchor point) loop of 5mm static cord with a rapide-link connecting to loop of break cord (which I knot with a surgeon's knot), I used another rapide-link and 5mm static cord loop, but doubled to be easy on my hands, on the bottom side of the break cord loop

I then pulled with all my might and managed to just lift myself of the ground before the break cord did it's job and broke.

I weigh 169lb.

It's a fun little experiment to try at home, just be selective when choosing an anchor point and don't get hit in the head by a rapide-link!

further to this discussion, be aware that there are several other factors that will affect exactly how much force it will take to break the break cord.


here are the main players:

-the size, shape and surface finish of the load points that contact the break cord

-the knot used to tie the break cord

-the amount of stretch in the anchor side of the system and the amount of stretch in the other side of the system

-the speed with which the load is applied


for the most part, if you keep it sensible (i.e. not using razor as contact points) these factors will not have a big influence on the force required to break the cord

caveat: all the numbers used here are approximate, do not be suprised by a variance of a few pounds either way

have fun!
sam

Hi 903 -You have posted 2 different setups/pic's.

Your 2nd pic shows equal force applied to both ends of the break-cord. I agree that there is no mech advantage with this setup.

Your 1st pic shows applied force travelling up the line and around the anchor point and back down to the load (break-cord). It does not travel up the line and then do a turn along the break-cord, it pulls from a point that has a mech advantage of 2.

I know it "looks" as if everything is static but it's the unseen "load" that is the determining factor.

Your 1st setup is similar to a climber being belayed with his foot caught in the rope as it's being pulled down by the belayer.

Anyway - to make absolutely sure of my comments I'm going out to get me some spring scales myself - maybe I'll be back tomorrow to eat some pie , just maybe.

g.

I agree. The first picture shown does have a 2:1 mechanical advantage, requireing 160 lbs. to break, whereas the second picture doesn't. This is because in the first picture only one free end is connected to the break cord. In the second picture both free ends are connected. This minor variation makes a BIG difference.

Man if I had a dollar for everytime I've seen this argument go down (btw, I'm with you)...

have fun!
Gardner

From all the setups I've seen 80lb break cord is used to apply a force of 160lbs prior to breakage. Should we be applying 80lbs or 160lbs in a static line setup?

This discussion is also current over at Blinc in the technical forum

http://www.basejumping.org/...owthread.php?t=23485

In a nutshell for those who don't venture over there, what tests point to is that a single strand of 80lb breakcord gripped and put under tension from both ends will break at 80lbs. However, for us to use this cord we have to introduce knots into the system which weaken it by an estimated 40%, as the knotted point creates a sharp edge which causes fibres in the breakcord to sever rather than snap (that's my understanding of it anyway) Therefore a single strand of 80lb breakcord will fail at approximately 48lb. By looping the breakcord we create 2 branches of 80lb = 160lb as stated but then factor in the weak point at the knot and you have a failure at approximately 96lbs which is closer to the optimum unknotted cord than the 48lb single strand. Taking into account that no jumper has as yet pulled an object down with them, but many have experienced premature breakcord failure putting them into a form of freefall assist, it makes sense to err towards the stronger setup than the weaker. As we only tend to static line lower objects, a breakcord failure at these altitudes can ruin your day.

Dexter, Base689, Sum1sneaky, Ray, Tom, riggersam and many others have added valuable and frankly life and time saving advice on this subject in many other theads here at dz.com and blinc.

As Gardner says, this little gem comes round about as often as the paperboy.

ian

I went to Blinc shortly after posting my question, but no one is saying what kind of force we are trying to apply in doing a static line. There are several other factors involved in calculating the force that is actually being applied, for instance a steadly increasing force over a longer period of time produces less instantaneous force than a sudden jerk like a SL jump.

How is break cords strength tested? What's the minimum/maximum force that we should be applying?

I've seen some really nice CWY SL setups in the three current threads, but none of them are applying 80lbs of force to the bridle connected to the canopy. If this has been discussed repetitively I would think there was a general (not exact) consensus on the forces involved, correct?

Here's a post I made in the other static line thread. It details the system I have been using very successfully.

This I like ! NOW I'm happy

...and what's best - it's simple.

In Eastern Oz our most jumped S has an area about 15metres long at the exit pt along the railing with MULTIPLE layers of electrical tape on it. I was once pushing for ppl to at least use WHITE tape (white painted railing) to minimise the visual impact but found myself to be the worst culprit in the end. The council wokers clean it off every 3 months or so but it is still a real eyesore.

This system would really minimise this mess.

Onya' DexterBase mate nice work.

g.
AB86

Yo Dude,

As we had this discussion before, I might just add my mix to the ramble.

I use single static line setup ( as opposed to loop system) , doubled with the same setup, about 10 - 15 cm further up the bridle, to provide a backup, with a 46 or 48" PC.


Now, 40% loss in strength? What knots are you using? As I have done my test previously, and just done them again, twice, I found that with the knot I use, the break cord always (always: relative, isn't it?) breaks above 34kgs ( or 74.957 lb's).
Test 1. Lifted 34kgs. then with same break cord, lifted 35kgs or 77.162 lbs, and broke.
Test 2. Lifted 35 with fresh break cord for a while, put it down, then lift it again, not broken.

Now, 74.9 and 77.1 does not give me a loss of 40%. To me, this resulted in a 93-96% strength.

Also, one of the first things I did when I bought my rig, was to test the pin tention. Yes I like mine 'soft', and it not even close to 8lbs'. Lets say I go with the about 20-30 lbs of force, it leaves me with 45lbs plus, plus the second system of another +73lbs, plus the 46" - 48" pc. If something goes wrong here, I think it my time then.

Knots used on both ends, is like a figure of 8, with an additional full loop, before completing the knot.

Previous results, was with standard figure of 8 knot.


If you think/know/tested/don't know your setup, and think/know/don't know that it will break @ 40%, then I would propably do the same.

Other random thoughts:
We are happy with a human PCA, but how reliable will 'this setup' be in terms of strength.

I don't think any of my PCA buddies will be able to hold a 34kg snatch force with one bicep, one hand, and a bridle routed in-out @ the same end of the hand, and at the same time, provide me with a full duplicate system. Yet, we are happy with so much more force (subject to set-up)

Don't we also continually do these PCA's from the same objects /heigts as this over-kill SL?

A thought I had, was to set-up a single SL system on a PCA, and see if the break cord will break, before you PCA buddy let go. What will this test? Maybe not much, but the so called 'Other forces' might be identified, or their ghosts might get kicked.

As W has mentioned, what is the long term stress you put with an overloaded system on your bridle, attachment points, etc. Over engineering the SL system is not the solution for doing it wrong in the first place (thinkig of SL failures of the past, that makes people so paranoid.) , for now we introduce new stresses. I am convinced that all the SL setups that failed, weren't done 'right', for even now, we can't seem to agree on what is right.

Also, why do we go to such great lengths in getting the PC size for a FF right, when we are happy with such great forces in a SL?

Happy jumps in this weather Dude, and C-yah in France! Maybe we can give the Ski thing a go as well.

What body position were you in when you tested it? You were wearing it, right?

Testing it on a table yields radically different numbers from testing it when worn, and especially when worn and curled into a tight tuck.

If you got less than 8 pounds with it all tightened down, I'm curious what the tension was like on a table.

Yes, it was very low, but as I have stated above, lets say I opted for the 20-30lbs standard, their is still a lot to play with.

(For interesting sake, I think I need to do that pin test again, which, off-course would not affect my argument above, unless it is above 30lbs. I bloody don't hope is more that that. Also, being into areals, I don't plan in doing a tuck on my SL jumps )

Was also thinking last night, that the way people make their knots with break cord that is actually a flat webbing, as you would have got in climbing, is that thye don't feed the webbing 'flat' around a knot, as we did in climbing (Yes, No?) will result in loading the break cord on the one side more arount this corner, and hence, weakening it dramatically.

I pay a lot attention in doing the knot. Should actually to a few tests on badly woven knots as well.

C