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With the ongoing discussion in the "Packing Question" thread, I wanted to start a new thread on the use of tailgates and their prevention of line-overs.

In the past 6 years, I've heard of 3 line-overs that have occurred on slider-down jumps where a tailgate was being used.

Two months ago, for the first time, I saw a video of a line-over on a slider-down jump with a tailgate. I know the jumper personally and his pack jobs are emaculate. He had a very distinct line-over that spun him approx 180 to 270 degrees before it cleared on its own. He was using a tail-gate configured to modern and accepted standards.

I'm bringing this up because I have run across jumpers that believe a tailgate is guaranteed to prevent line-overs. I've even met a handful of jumpers who no longer use the line-mod (not routing the brake lines through the guide ring) because they think the tailgate is guaranteed prevention.

The tailgate is proven technology. It's been successfully used on tens of thousands of jumps with only a few (perhaps less than 10) reports of a line-over. But new and old jumpers beware: the possibility of a line-over while using a tailgate is still there, so factor that into your educated decision on whether or not you want to use the line-mod while jumping slider-down.

C-ya,

Bryan

While I personally have never heard of a lineover while a tailgate was in use and properly configured, I agree with the message in this post.

Use the tailgate.

Use the line mod.

Be ready for a lineover, always.

I have the video. I might try to digitize it and upload it, because I think there are lots of people who don't believe it's possible.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I believe it's very possible and that's why I expect it to happen at any time, regardless of how careful I've been packing.

I would like to see the video though. I'm not sure what we'll learn from it other than, "Look, it can happen" but still, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

Just playing devil's advocate here (I do use the line-mod on all my slider down jumps), but I know of more than 3 people who have got hurt landing using their risers after losing a toggle on opening.

Maybe some feel that the risk of a line-over when using a tail-gate is low enough to justify never having to worry about losing a toggle. Or maybe they are just lazy and don't want the hassle of re-routing steering lines.

Will

http://www.dropzone.com/...ing=tailgate;#961693

In my opinion, this is due to inadequate preparation. Landing a canopy on risers (downwind, and into bad landing areas, if necessary) ought to be considered a prerequisite BASE skill.

When I first got into Base, I started in Norway so I had plenty of canopy time. I practiced flying and steering on rear risers.

Last year I dropped a toggle on a slider down jump at night. I let go of the other toggle and landed on rear risers. Most importantly though, I only flared half-way on my rear risers and did a PLF. I think this is a better option to avoid stalling your canopy.

Meeker

I notice that some jumpers make the tailgate quite loose for low stuff, with the (mistaken) thought that this will allow the canopy to open faster, yet still provide linover protection.

The center C's/D's, and control lines within the tailgate MUST be kept tight together.

It's ok to do less wraps with the rubber band, but the lines should not be able to slide around in the group, otherwise you're risking lineover.

(edited to say "center")

Yes, it is possible to have a line-over even when using a tailgate, not likely, but in this sport ANYTHING can (and will) happen. Even with a tailgate, a totally shite body position or too much wind or whatever can still create the possibility of a line over.

This is something I haven't seen anyone mention yet, that when you're jumping slider up, the brake lines through the slider grommets encourage the slider to come DOWN! If you're still jumping the brake mod slider up, you're giving yourself just one more factor that can work against you.

Peace,
K

 

Bring it up(if not public then mail me BASE850ATganetDOTdk) ,me braking 1 leg on a rearriserlanding makes me interested

I'd love to see it.

I'm the truly gifted and ultra-talented jumper that bps was talking about that had the most recent slider down, tailgated lineover...

I am a slow packer. Not because I work slow, but because I feel my packjob is overly anal-retentive, and I like packing anyways.

That jump was about my 185th within a rapid year of jumping. In fact, I packed that one to freefall a sub-300' B that we have in town, but due to winds, called that one off. Went to TF the next weekend, pulled off another double, and had what I thought was a 90 left. Got on the risers, and it kept turning, and by the time it was self-cleared, it was already a 180 that was easier to keep it going, so I ended up risering another 90 so I was pointed towards the shore...

Point being- People have 180s. People get hurt. And I could only believe that if I packed nicer and cleaner than the other guy, I would avoid most of these. I don't know what happened with this jump. I believe that my packjob is the best, like everyone, and I remember thinking that this was "the nicest packjob ever, EVER". A couple days earlier, I was going to freefall our little Bs, so I put that extra bit of love in, and spent a little more time...

It has shaken my confidence that things will always go right if you don't f-up. Since then, I KNOW that there is a roulette wheel of chance, somewhere, and sometimes it won't come out nice. And you might have a lot of time to deal with it, and you might not have a lot of time to deal with it... But it will happen, so expect it... But since then, I expect the unexpected more than ever...

Seriously, a slider-down lineover, with a tailgate, on the best B packjob that I could stick in there?

I've heard 2 ways of landing after losing a toggle or releasing it to clear a line-over. 1-keep the other toggle and use the riser 2- throw away both toggles in the event of losing one and fly with both risers(obviously) Both articales said not to do the other method? which do you all recomend?

There are many people in Australia (myself included) that do not use the line-mod on slider-down jumps. The above occurence seems very rare. However, I don't think that one documented slider-down line over, with a tail gate used correctly in the thousands of jumps done warrents a control mechanism that is fraught with other potential problems.

There are more reasons for not using line-mod than simply because line overs don't happen with a tail gate. Jason F wrote a lot about this and says it better than I ever will. Here it is.


Line Mod is obsolete. This is my opinion only and in no way do I suggest people should stop using line mod.

I stopped using line mod about 2 years ago. I simply keep the brake line through the slider and keeper ring and place the toggle directly in the brake setting, just the same as slider up. I do not use the extra loop as it can hold the brake line after releasing the toggle. The main reason for this was when standing at the exit point I felt more comfortable knowing my pack job had the same brake line set up every time (not necessarily the same brake setting). The reasons for this were mainly local, I was jumping a slider up object a lot which would have meant changing my brake lines regularly and the most common jumps up here are slider down with 1000 foot + canopy rides. This led to me thinking about how important it was to use line mod.

I know of no incidents where a line mod has corrected a malfunction where a tailgate was used, I’m not saying it hasn’t happened just I don’t know of any cases and I have tried hard to find one. I believe the chances of line mod saving me on a line over slider down are slim. If line mod worked so well I don’t believe the tailgate would have been invented. I have witnessed toggles release on opening twice, a slider up jump with line mod as well as 3 new jumpers using LRT incorrectly. There are also numerous stories of incidents of line mod being used incorrectly resulting in near misses, injury and one possibly resulting in a death (The List #55). I know the answer should be to never get it wrong but jumpers with less than 10 and more than 500 jumps have gotten it wrong. I am honest enough to admit that it is possible one day while packing multiple rigs slider up and down late at night with distractions I may get it wrong.

I estimate that you would have to do a go and throw from 400 feet with an overhung object to give yourself a reasonable chance of line mod saving you. If someone has a better idea of how much height is required to clear a line over, correct heading and land safely it would be appreciated. For me on every slider down jump if I was to use line mod the risk of a packing mistake, dropping a toggle after opening and the added difficulty in flying the canopy is not justified. In the era of multiple rigs it can be a battle just to remember where the slider is without being concerned with multiple brake configurations as well.

It is important to analyze individual cases but it is more important to review all jumps and incidents that have happened in the past 5 years and review them as a whole. If you do this I believe the case for using line mod is weak. At best it becomes a case of personal preference in regard to flight characteristics but I see no case for added safety.

Slider up jumping is where I believe the risk of a line over is. People generally seem to be quite content to accept this risk and I have never seen anyone get worked up about jumping slider up without a hook knife or any other means of clearing a potential line over.

I have not seen any release toggles that I would use as they either require you to release the toggle and the brake in such a way it would probably require the use of 2 hands while your canopy is turning uncontrolled. The Vertigo toggle is single action but uses a pin and press stud. I have only ever heard bad things about press studs. I believe any advantages gained from using these toggles would not out way the disadvantages. Since I have stopped using line mod I have ensured all my rigs have a hook knife, it may not save me but I see no disadvantages of having it. I also make sure to always have spare tailgates.

This is my opinion only and we all have to live with our own choices.

Jason Fitz-Herbert

I have video of a succesful line mod save and subsequent good landing from a 330' span.

I just want to restate that with my incident, it cleared itself before I realized I had a lineover... And, in my opinion, I would still rather have the line run outside of the slider and guide ring for slider down. BASE jumps and my safety are worth the hassle of rerouting the brake lines...

Ouch - glad to hear you are aight pk... I've seen one lineover with a tailgate in use as well, granted, this was close to 4 years ago. The jumper had 400+ in multiple enviros. That was one of the reasons I don't base to be honest with you. Perfect launch, perfect dump position, watched the guy pack - super anal packer, gets made fun of all the time, STILL had a nice line over until 3-4 seconds prior to landing... Nooooooo thank you...

I have video of a succesful line mod save and subsequent good landing from a 330' span.
I would love to see that movie.

I watched a successful line mod save on a line over off of a cliff. 390 feet. He had a full 360 degree rotation, threw the toggles and stood it up on the road with risers.

edit for site name ~TA

Earl Redfern used to say, "Parachutes are like women... if you show 'em too much attention they'll fuck you every time."

glad you were at the potato bridge.

Gardner

Yes please. If it means knowing that I will always be able to deal with a line-over quickly and land using my toggles I'd be very interested.

Will

You're right I'd be interested. That would be a great thing me thinks.

I can attest to the anal packing techniques of said jumper ... I think I realized it first in Twin when I was always waiting for you to jump. hee hee. Seriously though, I have seen said packjobs on many occasions, and because of that it scares me into thinking about bad things happening no matter what. I really couldn't imagine what would have caused that dude. My opinion though is that you were off axis in your aerial and had bad body position, coupled with the fact that you didn't give sufficient ego stroke prior to launch. See what I do, is bring a mirror, and tell myself how sexy I am, and how line-overs don't happen to people this sexy. Oh, and if you would've added another rotation, it would have worked . Your canopy was just screaming, "Go big!"... Man am I an idiot

Hey dude, I have some video of his earlier packjobs. Pretty scary stuff! I'm glad to hear they're more anal now. You guys need to get out here so we can play. The Kmonster will be getting her new PerigeePro in a day or two so you should come out. She'll also be hitting 100 in the next night or two. I'm excited!

Any info on how people lost their toggles? Brake fire on opening or lost out of their hands after releasing? In first case, properly installed? In second, what kind of toggles?

JasonF took some photos before he died intending to prepare a post regarding packing technique and line overs. I’m going to do my best to convey the essence of his intended message.

During one of the early Petronas events in Malaysia, several people had partial line overs that cleared on opening (thanks go to Annie for filming these and pointing them out to the people involved). Jason was one of these people who had a self-clearing line over. He spoke to everyone else who had also had a self-clearing line over in an attempt to locate a cause. Over the years, Jason critically analysed the way he packed in an effort to reduce the chance of slider-up line overs. At the most recent event, there were again several people who had self-clearing line overs. Jason spoke to them and examined their packing techniques. He concluded that they were all missing a crucial step in their pack-job. Hence, Jason came up with the following suggestion.

The attached photo shows the left-hand side and right-hand side of a pack job flaked slightly differently. On the left-hand side, the first stabiliser fold has been consciously pulled out and the brake lines pulled in towards the middle of the pack-job. The brake line on the left-hand side is now significantly impeded from leaving the middle of the pack-job during deployment. However, on the right-hand side, the stabiliser was not pulled out when the three outer cells were folded in. The result is that the stabiliser on the right-hand side is now hidden, and the brake line’s movement is less restricted. Jason believed that ensuring the stabiliser was pulled out, and that the brake lines were pulled in to the middle of the pack-job was important to avoid line overs.

Logically, having the stabiliser pulled further out - and the brake lines further in - makes it much less likely that the brake lines will end up on the wrong side of the stabiliser when it inflates. Some of the other people who had self-clearing line overs in Malaysia had some of the most anally retentive packing techniques I’ve ever seen (sorry Ray), so sloppy packing can easily be ruled out as a possible cause. Since changing his packing technique, Jason has never observed another self-clearing line over on footage of his jumps.

Something to think about…

I am not following you.

Are you saying that wrapping the stabilizer inside the other folds, while leaving the tail outside was the culprit?

Or are you saying that letting control lines wander outside was the culprit?

Or both?

If the latter, wouldn't that make the tailgated line over that PK had impossible?

If the former, why would putting the stabilizer inside or outside the other folds matter? Since the "main" folds must come out before tailgate blows open and releases the control lines, I can't see how the position of the stablizer can be the cause (it's essentially the same by the time the lines are free to move outside).

As I said, I don't follow. Can you elaborate?

had some of the most anally retentive packing techniques I’ve ever seen (sorry Ray), so sloppy packing can easily be ruled out as a possible cause.
.............................

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaha
Liv :
No offence taken, If I Do a nice pack-job, I can't blame My canopy on
a Bad opening. It must have been my fault

Liv ...
There is one thing though.
My stabilizers are pulled out, and my Brake lines are on top and in center
with the rest of lines. / nice tight line channel.
My pack-jobs like you say are," text book perfect "
When I am on a Technical object like, inner city buildings the pack's are
perfect and everyone exactly alike

 Tom, I believe the Jason pics and message Liv posted all relate to slider up line overs.
Seems like solid logic there, I like the way Jason reasoned things out. Although I strongly believe in and use tape on slider up control lines to avoid just what Jason referred to; control lines moving outside inflating stabilizers slider up.
Slider down with a tailgate, this is a mute point. I think the tailgate takes care of things, regardless of stabilizer position, provided of course the tailgate is used correctly.
The 15% random black fuck factor seems to apply to every jump. Glad this post is about information and not condolences.

It is normal here to pack the way you describe left side. I did not know that people do pack like the right side. don't understand people packing this way, since for me it is screaming for line-over.

Additionally, we do a strong direct slider control (with black rubber bands ;-)) With this strong direct control I don't see any use of tape or a tailgate...

Some notes on line overs:

Tailgates DECREASE the risk of a line over - they don't reduce it to zero. There has been tailgate lineovers.

Landing a line over is more likely to result in greater injury than a rear riser landing.

Some tips:
- clear your stabilisers - this has been an integral & extrememly important part of packing in both skydiving and BASE jumping for DECADES. If the stabiliser inflates prior to the brake lines moving, there is a much lower chance of a line over occuring. Most line overs start where a stabiliser inflates on the ïnside" of a brake line such that the brake line is forced towards the leading edge of a canopy.
- ensure symmetry in your pack job. This means lines in the centre & tight + material outside. Ensure the lines are tight all the way up to the d attachments. Quarter your slider and use the same principle for the material - aim is to promote symmetrical airflow to the canopy during deplyment.
- ensure that the tailgate is both installed and used correctly.
- etc

Dropped toggles occur for a number of reasons:
- incorrect stowage
- incompatable equipment (i.e. small toggle / large loop)
- poorly maintained equipment
- deployment in unsymmetrical position leading to toggle hitting other components of the equipment during deployment
- people let go of their toggles due to lack of focus / concentration
- etc

any other ideas?

Ah. I see. I was confused by the thread drift (since we were originally discussing slider down tailgated lineovers).

Thanks!

I've sewn a tailgate on the center upper trailing edge of the slider. When I pack slider up I trap the "normal" TG lines in the slider-TG. I've only tried out of planes. Maybe in a month or so I'll be able to take it close to terminal in Europe and see how it performs. I'll post some pics too shortly.

Vertigo's been doing something along this line for quite some time, although I believe it's on the aft edge of the slider...

Edited to add:
'tis just a "loop" of binding tape (or something similar) to which you can lark's head a rubber band in order to (correct me if I'm wrong, Tom) take a bight of your brake lines...

My bad. I meant trailing edge

http://www.blincmagazine.com/...owthread.php?t=22346

http://www.blincmagazine.com/...owthread.php?t=22218

I believe the technique used by Nicknitro is superior.

If you take a bite of the lines, you distort the canopy's trim during opening, in a potentially asymmetric fashion.

CR used to put a stow band there as well, but they discontinued the practice for pretty much the reason I outlined.

Or you could use the hookitt pack.

The tail is micro reefed and then the center cell is wrapped aroung the tail to the width of the tailpocket. Stow the lines.

This leaves the D-tail stabilizer totally outside the tail section. Then you 45 degree fold the A-B, B-C, and C-D stabilizer sections (as one) under the tailpocket.

Fold the stacks in to the edge of the tail section, then fold again over the tail into the center.

If this makes no sense at all...

nicknitro :
I've sewn a tailgate on the center upper trailing edge of the slider. When I pack slider up I trap the "normal" TG lines in the slider-TG.
.......................................


I hear of people doing this.
Do you think it is wise to "Combine" / Direct Slider control with break line restriction/control on Slider-up BASE jumps ???
* Slider control for delay,- delaying of how fast the slider come down the lines on opening
* The Tail busting open and Direct control of Brake-lines to help reduce Line-Over.

They are two different things. Both moving energy in different directions.

The slider wants to come down / The Tail and Break-Lines want to explode, out.
.
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