Basejumper.com - archive

First off, I am by no means a BASE guru or anything like that. In fact I am a fairly new BASE jumper myself (I have only about 50 BASE jumps to my credit). But I am curious to get the opinion of the more experienced BASE jumpers concerning the influx of new blood into the sport. Is it possible that this is an annual occurence (set around Bridge Day every October) and I just haven't been around long enough? But there seems to be many many many new people who are trying to get into BASE nowadays. In some cases, these are people with decent parachuting experience from the skydiving world, and in some cases it is people with hardly any parachuting experience who despirately want in. I also know that there has been many debates in the past about whether it's better to take someone with skydiving experience, or to take someone with no experience with parachutes at all and the opinions can be radically different from one mentor to the next.

So what's the take on all of this? Do some of you experienced folks think that some shit is going to hit the fan very soon due to all of the new people entering the sport? Or is this just a seasonal thing? How do you feel about someone with only a handful of parachute jumps visiting Bridge Day and then deciding that they too want to get into one of the World's most extreme and dangerous activities. Are we sitting on a ticking time bomb here? Is there proper respect for the sport being shown or are people just looking for that next thrill?

i can only agree whith you...

not to hijack - but do you all feel threatened at all by the increase of interest? Or is it purely a concern for safety and perception of the sport from the outside?

I saw a great quote from one of the more experienced basers in the world earlier this year - he basically stated that with the continuous influx and increase per year of new jumpers, base was going to have an extremely tough time of staying safe and unregulated. I personally agree. I've seen alot of people get involved with the sport very early on in their jumping carrers - more and more over the recent years that can barely handle a canopy landing in a huge open field.

For me the concerns are primarily safety and site preservation.

I was taught by an old-schooler, and I am friends with many other old-schoolers. So for me, BASE is as much about community & friendship (if not moreso) than the jumps themselves.

I've only been in the sport for two years, but at least what I see is an element of "dig me and my radness" types who don't seem to be concerned about much except getting good video of themselves.

It's a shame really. But I like to think those types are still in the minority.

As gear refines and as our sport becomes more socially accepted (*shudder*) I think this sort of thing is inevitable. The same thing happened with skydiving.

But, the upside is the possibility of more legal sites opening, and in my mind that's a good thing.

As far as people screwing up sites. Man, I hope it doesn't happen, but if it does I can always go off and find my own little neck of the woods that no one else knows about.

sure is,medias loves when people gets hurt they love it even better if its in a way people usaly dont get hurt..
Now try and think of it if a person dies and think of all thouse who tryes to stop our sport.....

I dont wanmt to start the old discuse again about jump #´s at BD,but as an high profile event as it is i think its sad that it could be a posibly place to get scars to the sport,just like the latest go fast event(this time just an experinced jumper) using skydive gear and gets hurt, to an event were we would like to have no injuryes...

I can only say that yes i feel the sport should keep beeing selfregulated,but i think its time that we start think of theese events as BASE-face out to the public,and we can get hard time enough as a experienced jumper doing a regular jump whith the apropiate gear on,we dont need to show off that we can put off people whith lower jump #´s than normal,using skydive gear or what so ever...

IF we show that WE reagulate our self in a safe(at least to the public)way,then we probaly would gain accsess to more of theese events over the world,and might even get acsepted as the sport of BASE in staed of the the sport of thouse crazy f#"ks trying to get as close to kill them self group...

I dont care(or should deside) if people should jump low jump #´s,jump skydive gear and so on at home,but please rember that it might impact on how we look to the public if these things goes wrong to any events...

I do think were in a "boom" of people wanting into BASE,it has been a trend,its cool that way aslong as we can make it safe as posible...

just my humble oppinion.
PS. just to add that i really respect the work as Jason and other people are pulling off at event like BD,i know i wouldnt be abel to do the same(actualy not many in the world),i can only thank thouse and hope that i one day myself can jump at thouse events...

My motivations for creating this thread have nothing to do with being threatened with people wanting to get into the sport and everything to do with concern about the experience and knowledge (or lack there of) of some people towards this sport which ultimately relates to the safety out there. Remember I too am a newbie to BASE jumping. The 40-50 BASE jumps which I have is squat when it comes to being considered experienced.

Locally to where I am, there has been a lot of people who have made their first X number of jumps within the last 12 months and in some cases, these new people have decent parachuting experience. But concern lies in the people with minimal experience controlling a parachute yet they still feel the need to expose themselves to the dangers of BASE jumping. And with each new jumper, there is yet another potential jumper behind them saying "yes I too want to get into it" regardless of whether or not the person has spent the time to build canopy control experience.

Am I wrong for feeling this way? I don't know? That is why I asked for the opinions of the more experienced people. Is this a seasonal thing? Can we expect that every fall new people will be expressing an interest towards getting into one of the world's most dangerous and extreme sports?

How are they "getting involved"?

There is not much that can be done (regulation or otherwise) if a jumper decides to throw his skydiving gear on and jump off a fixed object thinking his reserve will open fast enough to save his life.

However, if someone is interested in BASE jumping enough to perform the prequisites listed in several different BASE forums, and search out and find someone to mentor them, and said mentor evaluates their ability, motivation, and attitude prior to their first jump, how can this be deemed a detriment to the sport? Even if these types of people are coming in ever increasing numbers?

I realize the more jumpers there are the more visable the sport becomes, but I only perceive this as a problem for the illegal side of the sport. The extreme nature of BASE jumping already draws a lot of attention and I think with the increase in media coverage and organized legal events the demand to participate will surely increase.

It is up to the mentors to spend the time necessary to ensure the people entering the sport are trained, educated, and qualified. Otherwise having a set of regulated BSR's for BASE is inevitable. I'm sure there is already an understood set of BSR's out there and I saw several fatalities listed where these practices were not adhered to so it's not such a bad idea.

On the other hand, BASE is as close to the edge as I can imagine and many human's seem to be drawn to pushing that envelope. Individuals pushing the edge without the knowledge and experience to realize it are the greatest danger. Again I go back to education...

This is true. The problem I think is that many people don't realize that they really ARE pushing the envelope. With all the video out there people start thinking it's no big deal... they get a false sense of security.

The other problem is whether people really understand WHY they are being drawn to it. There is no one right reason, but I sometimes wonder how many people really know themselves well enough to understand why they are doing it.

That is definitely one of the inquiries I am in, and the #1 question I am asked by my family and friends when I tell them I am considering BASE jumping...several can't even understand why I skydive.

If you can't answer this question for yourself it's probably best to not step too close to the edge.

Excellent point, and I think you are correct. Consider the following paper from the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology:

http://www.apa.org/.../psp/psp7761121.html

(It's title is `Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments').

From the abstract:

I don’t know how this is possible, since most of all BASE jumpers do illegal jumps… And for most of us, that’s all we have. So how do you show the public that we are self regulating when we mostly do illegal jumps? Not to mention, I have no desire to attend public events… Why should I spend money to fly to events when I can BASE in my backyard? And finally, I have no desire to be regulated and I won’t let it happen… In my backyard, I will continue to jump what I want, when I want, and without anyone’s approval… The only time I will ever be regulated or ask for approval on an object is when I’m on someone else’s turf. In those cases, I follow BASE ethics and contact the locals… I consult the locals out of respect for my fellow BASE brothers and sisters. Other than that, I will not change the way I BASE so that others can have their BASE events. The only person that is ever going to give me the go ahead at an exit point is me, and only me…

Please only take this as my point of view and not an attack on you Faber… I’ve heard this point of view before… And even some of our local BASE jumpers talk about creating a legal BASE association that opens legal sites locally… But as long as the vast majority of us have to do illegal jumps, I just don’t see how it’s possible for BASE to become legal and accepted as a sport like skydiving, since the very foundation of our sport is mostly illegal… The only way I see it possible is that all BASE jumpers worldwide would have to agree to stop doing illegal jumps for hope that one day we will have legal objects to jump… I have to be honest, I’m not willing to do that…

Again just my view on BASE events and being regulated…

…

SBCmac

i dont

How will you explain BASE in Germany? were there are some legal places to jump(restricted but legal),but also illegal jumps...

it can happen
I dont care about many of the big events aswell,but i see no reasson that they stop so my Brothers and sisters cant jump them..

I do agree there will always be urban jumps,i know as im abit like you.. i like the sneaking part aswell,but aslong as people dont see us it cant harm the events

Very true... Very true... Good points!



SBCmac

Where I live, over the past year and a half, we have seen a huge influx of new people getting into BASE… But, over that same period of time, we have also seen a large exodus/ increase of inactive jumpers, mainly the same jumpers that came into the sport in the same year and a half timeframe. So during the summer of 2003, in our surrounding area, everyone and their mother wanted to get into BASE. We ended up having two main groups of jumpers, a North crew and a South crew. A lot of the South crew were jumpers that tried it a couple of times but didn’t stick with the sport. A great majority of those jumpers were just people feeling like they were missing out on something and wanted to prove that BASE wasn’t what it was all cracked up to be. Again, they did one or two jumps and dropped out… As far as the North crew, kind of the same thing happened but people stuck with it a little longer before falling to the way side. All in all, both crews saw a large increase of jumpers and both crews saw a large decrease over time. Over that same period of time, we’ve had several cliff strikes, multiple broken legs, people arrested, and our first BASE fatality. I think over time people saw that there is a real shinny side of BASE and there’s a real ugly side of BASE… I’m not sure why each person chose to leave BASE and I respect them for leaving a sport that wasn’t for them…

So to make a long story short… I think BASE cleans itself of the jumpers that are not in it with 100% respect and awareness of the good, the bad, and the ugly sides of BASE. So I’m not worried about the huge influx of new jumpers coming into our sport because of the trend that I have observed in my own area. Without a doubt, we will see an increase in deaths and injuries within BASE because of the increase in numbers of jumpers. But as we have all seen over the past couple years, death and injury does not discriminate in our sport… With this being the case, deaths and serious injury will no longer be something that just happened to some other crew, it will happen to each and every one of our crews. This being the case, being a new jumper will take on a whole new reality and seriousness that a lot of new jumpers today claim they understand but won’t until they are jumping with crews that have been struck by the ugly side of BASE… In the end, your remaining BASE brothers and sisters that stand next to you at exit point, over time and tribulation, will be those that you know for sure are there for the right reasons and are the ones that truly know the price of BASE…

SBCmac

I agree that there is a Darwin effect on how long people stay with the sport; but isn't that an even bigger issue? BASE is becoming easier to access (FJC's etc), which means people (who haven't really spent time researching BASE before jumping) are taking their inexperience to your local object and raising the chances of shutting it down etc.... and then the b@st@rds may not even have the commitment to still be jumping a year later! (said in humour).

And I think with the current situation this will problem will only increase.... I know of several people who have done a FJC but don't have many contacts in their local area (because they didn't go and ground crew etc before the course) who are now pretty much on their own scoping out objects. It would be much better for everyone if they were going out with experienced jumpers; but it takes time to get the trust of the experienced people, mainly due a conflict of interest, and there are less and less reasons to have to commit that time - just book a FJC....

Very good point… The cool thing is that I mostly focus my attention on cliffs that are hard to get to and that are technically intimidating… But I see your point because we have one object here that is my all time favorite, that my friend and I worked very hard to open, that I don’t jump anymore because it’s being raped… And we had one of our A’s burned because of an inexperienced jumper… So yeah, I definitely see your point…

So what can we do about it??? Again, going back to my earlier post, how do we regulate an illegal sport? Or better yet, how to we encourage new blood to see the big picture without trying to strong arm people?

SBCmac

Just strong arm people. I'm new and it's working on me.

just want to know, how teaching newbies is around, when i started my mentor, friend ... told me that if anything goes wrong - i mean if i damege the canopy - that i ll have to buy a new one, and i went along with it .. thank god nothing happened, my volet is happy... but now i c that people around me starts like fjc as it would be a skydiving thing, where u r insured and if u damege the canopy its the concequence of the holder of it... as i was speaking to some they r practising the way where pupil takes all the financiaopnal burden in case something happens - and i support that, couse there has to b part of it where u think if u r really viling to to do it inspite of propable damage that u do, othervise many people will just wanted to try...

just my point of view

Well...... not an easy question . I personally think that FJC's are not helping the sport; or at least the sneaking around scoping objects, careful planning, understanding the conditions aspect of the sport (which you could argue IS the sport).

[Side note: I should add at this point that I am complete newbie - FJC Jan '04, busted leg jump #17 and haven't jumped since the injury]

Here is my theory: as I understand it, FJC's were brought in to try and stop people mentoring when they shouldn't, or those who manage to get some kind of rig and chuck themselves off something (I also think FJC's do a lot of good things - mine was very useful and enjoyable, and I learned a lot). Unfortunately FJC's are now more of a commercial offering rather then trying to meet the above, which means that anyone who has the 'minimum' experience criteria can pay their money, and leave possibly even thinking they have the tools to go jumping.

Solution? I think we need mixture of the old and the new: If you want to start BASE, you need to do a FJC; but you can only get on a FJC with a recommendation from someone known to those running the courses (and you would of course include other criteria regards # of skydives, amount of GC experience etc). I could go on, but I think that is my point in simple terms...

I also think events like Bridge Day give people the wrong impression about BASE as well. Anyone and their mother can huck off that bridge without proper training during Bridge Day. Sure, they require X number of skydives, but they do not require BASE training… I mean did you know that you only have to have 50 skydives to jump off that bridge on Bridge Day??? That’s crazy!!! A person doesn’t know their ass from a whole in the ground at 50 skydives much less know how to jump into dead air doing a BASE jump in front of thousands of onlookers during an important PR event!!! So again, events like Bridge Day that encourage the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach, instead of encouraging proper training, are affecting BASE more than we know. As far as myself, I researched and sole searched for well over a year before I did my first BASE jump. And not to mention, after all my time preparing, I still took BR’s FJC to get started. And after all that, I still knew that I had so much more to learn. I also knew that I had to truly respect what I was getting into with BASE, I wasn’t just trying it out…

To make Bridge day even worse, BASE manufactures condone the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach by attending Bridge Day and renting gear to people with only 50 skydives. The funny thing is that you have to have the bare minimum requirements to attend their FJC and buy their gear, but you can bypass all that by renting a rig at Bridge Day. Again, I think this causes a negative ripple affect that we are now seeing in BASE with new blood…

So there are a lot of reasons why I think we have problems with new blood in BASE… But I believe the main contributors are events like Bridge Day that encourage anyone and their mother to jump without training, it’s too easy to get gear because people are trying to make BASE mainstream, and people are getting into BASE these days off of a whim, instead of taking the time to approach BASE correctly.

But if I had the choice to eliminate one of the above, it would be events like Bridge Day that allow untrained skydivers to do their first BASE jump. I think Bridge day is causing a ripple affect that we are just now seeing. And it’s only going to get worse if we keep letting people bypass proper BASE training…

Just my opinion though …

SBCmac

P.S. I didn’t have time to proof read the above, so I’m sorry if it all doesn’t read right …

Your proposal is at odds with economic forces, and therefore it would not survive.

Firstly, BASE equipment manufacturers benefit from having more people in the sport, therefore they have an economic incentive to create more BASE jumpers through training.

There is also the free market principle that if a service is desired, a service provider will come forward to provide that service (c.f. Tom's "tanning man" scenario).

I do not really think of Bridge Day as BASE, in the strictest sense. Bridge Day is Bridge Day, and BASE is BASE. There is some overlap, but there is also a surprising amount of divergence. Bridge Day predates the development of much of what we think of as "modern" BASE jumping. It is an institution of its very own, with its own culture, its own ethics and its own value.

I guess what I'm saying is that Bridge Day doesn't exist to serve the BASE community, any more than the BASE community exists to serve Bridge Day.

--To make Bridge day even worse, BASE manufactures condone the “just give it a try and see if you like it” approach by attending Bridge Day and renting gear to people with only 50 skydives. The funny thing is that you have to have the bare minimum requirements to attend their FJC and buy their gear, but you can bypass all that by renting a rig at Bridge Day.--


Perhaps the manufactures provide rental equipment at BD to underqualified jumpers in an attempt to minimize traditional skydiving gear (which is still allowed) that gets jumped during BD. If people are permited to jump with a low skydive number, might as well get them under a modern BASE specific setup rather than their old clapped out CRW (see STUDENT) rig. Just speculation.

nic

When I was looking to get into BASE, I spent a bit of time looking into it and gained the minimum FJC requirements - I then met up with some UK jumpers for a bit of a piss up. I met people who were on crutches, or had serious injuries from cliff stikes once and also met them as skydivers who had way more experience than myself. After that day I realised that I was in no way prepared for the sport.

I went away for another 2 years and learnt as much as I could and spent time doing CRW, Accuracy, learning about flying canopies and even having fun freeflying! - I forgot about BASE for a while and just concentrated on knowledge gaining - then one day I felt ready.

The FJC rocked my world, and then my BASE journey began. I was out every weekend and mid-week evening travelling around looking for objects, scoping objects and generally building up my knowledge of what I percieved BASE to be. I did this for 3 months without jumping, I spent time hooking up with jumpers and even took experienced jumpers to an object I had found, scoped out and then took them to jump.

I soon realised that in the UK the FJC did not prepare me for what it was all about - I even realised that although with 500 skydives and 6 months of only CRW and accuracy jumps my canopy skills were still lacking in the BASE environment in the UK. Even so, I still foolishly jumped some pretty hardcore objects and managed to walk away without incidents - this was done all on the wave of newbie excitment. I got to a point where I took a check of myself and had to say "whoa, slow it down"

Although I deem my approach to the sport as sensible, I still got carried away and did stupid shit - hey even in my sensible jumping I ended up smashing my leg up badly, having 6 months off work before loosing my job and having alot of time to reflect.

But at least I can sit happy knowing I put in a fuck load of work to get to where I am sitting on my arse busted up.

Now I see jumpers coming through, not really looking into BASE, paying some cash, getting a rig and doing a FJC and then returning to the UK wanting to jump - a few I have spoken too have not scoped out objects, or even found the objects really close to them - they want everything fucking spoon fed to them. No time or no effort to put in any time at all - they want it like skydiving - fucking easy! - and the sad thing is this is increasing.

BASE is way too accessable to skydivers who can come back not really understanding what BASE is like in a country like the UK. I understand that FJC's are there to stop people going out and doing stupid shit themselves, but this has the effect that people are also not bothering to put in the years of time and effort before they even step off the edge. Quickdraw is the only person I have spoken too that has put in an incredible amount of time and thought into what he wants to do, it would have been easier for him to bash out his 250 skydives and do a FJC and then start looking into it, but he has not - he has thought deeply about what BASE means.

I have always had an issue with BD, in that although i know most people see it as a different beast to BASE, what about the 100 jump skydiver who thinks that he is now a BASE jumper?

I knew a guy who decided to SL himself off a 120ft crane without ANY BASE knowledge and luckily he survived with hurting his ankles.

BASE is not skydiving, and it certainly requires many more thoughts than just getting a rig, doing a course and making some jumps - its fucking hard work - it can change your life in ways you never thought about.

How to you control this? I have no idea, the only thing is you can try and talk to newbies and explain how it is - but in the end, it wont stop people paying their money and expecting everything spoon fed and easy.........

Enough of this, I have way toooooooo much time on my hands...............

Yep, you are of course absolutely right; although I think if you ask those offering the course why they do (considering the level of responsibility they take on, both during the course and in reputation once they release the new "BASE jumper"), I imagine they would cite their reasons close to how I described in an earlier post.

I think its a case of long term and short term thinking; short term thinking gives you your money now, but if that jumper quits after a year its unlikely they will be recommending more people your way (and may even blame your course for them quitting) or continue to buy gear from you. If you have better control over who enters the sport, you would hopefully gain jumpers who stay jumping and objects that stay accessable - both of which should generate more sales and more recommendations.

That said, BASE by its very nature is a sport that attracts free thinkers, and as the above suggestion is pretty much regulation it will probably never work. But the current situation means that local experienced jumpers are less and less likely to help out the newbies in their area, thereby reducing the amount of information and experience being passed around - and I think we all agree that a FJC goes no way near providing the information you need to be a competent BASE jumper.

Evolution will take place, and the current situation will develop into some kind of status quo. The question is: do we want to try and influence it, or just let it happen naturally?

The only way you could get people to sign onto a first jump course with such stringent screening requirements would be to offer the course for free. Otherwise they'd just pay the cash to someone who didn't make them do any homework.

So, I'll put my money where my mouth is. Anyone else?

Tom, I have absolutely nothing to add to that

I totally disagree… Go to the Vertical Visions/ Bridge Day website (http://www.bridgeday.info) and tell me that it’s not promoted as “BASE” jumping. Any wafo or skydiver that goes to that site or attends the event sees it as BASE jumping. Whether or not we want to consider it BASE jumping or not, it doesn’t matter what we think, because without a doubt they are BASE jumping.

Don’t get me wrong though Tom, I definitely see your point in how experienced BASE jumpers don’t perceive Bridge Day as BASE jumping in its truest form. But the problem is not how experienced BASE jumpers see the event but how the surrounding community perceives it.

And I definitely agree with your last statement about how the BASE community doesn’t serve Bridge Day and vise versa. Maybe the BASE community should take more of an interest in how Bridge Day is conducted. Have you thought about how the NPS sees the event. I’m willing to bet they see it as BASE jumping. So again, maybe the BASE community should develop more of an interest in how our sport is being displayed to the public in events like Bridge day, especially because of the role it plays with the NPS…

…

SBCmac

I guess that depends on whether you are more concerned with the spirit of the thing, or the perception the public holds of the thing (in either case--Bridge Day or BASE in general).


Do you feel like the BASE community as a whole is not currently interested in that? I'd actually hazard a guess to the contrary. I've met jumpers who've never even been to North America but have opinions about Bridge Day.

THATs a BIG mistake its much a BASE jump as jumping off any other objects.I seems to rember people yelling up about FJC in Norway and it aint the smartes thing to do as its a cliff. now tell me how smart it is to let people jump off a S in daylight whith all the cool people arround making this jump a safe jump..
what happens as this jumper goes home???He/she had a great day jumping off a S one or two times,he has now become a "base-jumper",at the net he can buy his own gear and go huck some A´s in his/hers area..
can you see what i say?

I never saw BD for more as it is(even as i think its cool by Jason and the staff to do this.)By my deepest oppinion a jump into an event like that might should demand 50 BASE jumps,in that way you would let people whith some experience jump off the brigede and most likly make an even more injury free event,which would give a better effect on the medias and so...

but its just me and i know the BASE world is sopoused to be a no limit zone,but getting "BASEkids"out there aint good for the sport nor our selfs(i dont like hearing about people getting hurt/killed).

[A person doesn’t know their ass from a whole in the ground at 50 skydives much less know how to jump into dead air doing a BASE jump in front of thousands of onlookers during an important PR event!!! ]

It's not that hard, really. You jump, toss the PC, reach up and pull one to make it go left, the other to make it go right. You guys make it sound like flying a helicopter or something.

for that reasson i dont fly helicopters that often

perhaps BD aint so challegin place to land,But many LZ in the BASE envioment aint the same...

New blood is what keeps this lifestyle alive.
You, me, all of us were the new blood at one time.
Shit hit the fan? Absolutely!
Ticking time bomb? Absolutely!
Death and destruction is not limited to the "new blood".
The best of the best are going in.
Know your limits.
Know you're close to death each time you step off.
Odds are always 50/50.

There are some wonderful people entering the sport on a daily basis. But overall, I am concerned about where the sport is heading. My main concern lies in the psychology of the modern/contemporary "BASE Jumper".

I'd like to respond to your statements and questions.

<<<First off, I am by no means a BASE guru>>>

Any one with a sense of reality and an honest ability in judging their own and others abilities will be able to tell you that "guru's do not exist in this sport. There are many talented jumpers out there that possess a wealth of knowledge. Yet I am yet to meet a jumper with high levels of ability in every aspect of the sport. Every person I have met has some weeknesses. Look at NdG list!!!!!! The names on there are like the who's who of the sport. Boesnisch, Kjapfjell, Weston, Simpson, Hartshorne, etc. When you meet the person who claims to be a guru, my recommendation is to turn away. If you become one, well . . . . time for some soul searching.

<<<concerning the influx of new blood into the sport + seems to be many many many new people who are trying to get into BASE nowadays.>>>

Yes, the sport is growing and will continue to do so at an exponential rate. Is this good? I don't mind the sport growing. However, I do not like where the sport has been heading and the type of jumper that is being created. More about this later.

<<<I also know that there has been many debates in the past about whether it's better to take someone with skydiving experience, or to take someone with no experience with parachutes at all and the opinions can be radically different from one mentor to the next.>>>

I have a few opinions on this. Yep, you can learn bad habits in skydiving that would be detrimental to your BASE progression and safety. This has become more and more of a problem as the sport of skydiving had grown / expanded and less time has been spent teaching students fundamental safety and techniques. We are now rushing students through with minimal parachute flight training (focus has been AFF + freefall). -> Lets think about this for a second. "Less time teaching students properly". "More students entering the sport". Sounds a bit like where BASE has been heading lately!!!!!!

BUT - what is the difference between getting bad instruction skydiving or BASE jumping? I'll tell you, it is possible to get bad instruction in both. However, I would personally rather have been sintructed poorly in skydiving and then enter BASE rather than just be poorly instructed in BASE. WHY? MARGIN FOR ERROR!!!!!!

2nd point - to the people who argue that skydiving is useless and/or detrimental to BASE learning/progression/education - if (as a BASE instructor), you cannot teach your BASE student something useful whilst they are skydiving, how in hells name can you expect to teach them something useful whilst they are BASE jumping???? Yes, BASE and skydiving are VERY different. But, there are many similarities. If you can't teach a student basic canopy control, safety & risk management psychology, etc whilst they are skydiving, then you are going to find it difficult to teachthem anything useful in the BASE environment.

<<<<Do some of you experienced folks think that some shit is going to hit the fan very soon due to all of the new people entering the sport?>>>

The shit is already hitting the fan. Check out the fatality list. Check out the BASE boards for injuries, etc. I would also bet that a lower percentage of incidents even get mentioned. I know of a number personally!

<<<with only a handful of parachute jumps visiting Bridge Day and then deciding that they too want to get into one of the World's most extreme and dangerous activities>>>

Danger / Extreme???? Are relative terms. The sport is only as dangerous as its participants. Look at the fatalities and major injuries. THe jumpers themselves are attempting higher risk jumps with less and less experience and minimal training. Check out the BASE boards. Read between the lines.


<<<Is there proper respect for the sport being shown or are people just looking for that next thrill>>>

Respect is decreasing and risk is increasing. This brings me to the point I mentioned earlier about "BASE jumper psychology". People seem to have either less time or less patience nowadays to learn their trade/craft/sport/etc.

After being injured very early in his/her jumping career (an injury that could have very easily been paraplegia or death instead of just hospitalisation), a jumper made this comment to me: "we knew there was a risk and decided it was acceptable".

I talked to this jumper in depth afterwards and found that ultimately he thought that the worst that would happen would be a minor leg/arm injury. He also had the "it can't happen to me attitude" when considering the possibility of death.

He did not really consider risk or consequence. And the magnitude of each.

What did he do? He tried several new techniques on the one jump instead of progressing one step at a time (BOC, low opening, longer freefall, etc).


CONSEQUENCE - most modern jumpers don't understand the full consequence of their actions.
Consequences include the following:
- death
- bereaving family & friends who don't understand what you have done & have been doing
- bereaving fmaily & friends who blame the sport when you die / get injured
- permanent injury = loss of physical function with possible deterioration of mental function / stability. THis has flow on affects of career, relationships, work, ability to earn money, ability to participate in activites, etc.
- bad publicity for the sport. Note: if someone dies, it is the media's job to report it to the public. That is what the public demands. Media would not exist if the public did not want to consume the "(mis)information" it provides. Hence - the jumper should not provide the media with "fodder" to the feed the public.

A typical modern jumper has many of the following attributes:
- does not want to spend time learning and watching other people
- wants to jump asap
- is very naive about what constitutes good training, curriculum, progression, and who is a good mentor
- sees other people do manouvres and thinks it is easy and low risk just because nothing went wrong on that occasion. They don't consider the possibility that the person who performed the manouvre may just be very experience and VERY WELL prepared.
- laughs it off when injury occurs
- feels sorry for the last person that died - but does not consider what the root cause of the fatality was. Often he/she will go out and attempt a similar jump.
- does not understand or practice affective risk management strategies. This is often due to poor instruction from a similar person.
- Is all too willing to instruct other new jumpers even if they don't have all the prerequisite experience and ability.
- has a low skill base due to minimal / no parachuting experience which consequently makes them a higher risk jumper.
- has minimal interest and poor understanding in rigging and equipment
- has entered the sport to satisfy other personal objectives as opposed to "truly wanting to BASE jump".
- etc, etc.

To sum it up: r.e. numbers, the sport is growing rapidly. And their is a growth in the number of Ken / Barbie / 3min attention span generation entering the sport. The sport is not becoming more dangerous. The cliffs are the same shape (mostly). The risk factor is being increased by the participants.

Note that there are many new jumpers who are not like what I mentioned above!!!!

Very well stated reality check, Tom. Do you feel that the proportion of yahoos is increasing? Or would you say that there is just an overall increase in th enumber of jumpers, and therefore more yahoos? The yahoos, of course, do tend to make the most noise (to the media). They're responding to mTV's casting call right now.

Fortunately in Australia all the new jumpers I have seen coming through recently and over the past couple of years have an awesome attitude and are great people to be around. This is reflected in the standard of jumping and the relatively low number of injuries in Oz. I am excited about seeing where the sport of BASE his heading and look forward to seeing more new jumpers.

Jason F

Oh ! Boy ! You go to a Skydiving forum and you hear the experienced resenting new blood and growth, you come to the BASE forum and it's the same. No one seems to like new blood these days But what I'd be interested in hearing about is how were the pioneers of these sports any safer than the new blood when they took to the sport with quipment that wasn't even designed for the purpose, and then what about the large number of experienced folks, who in the name of experience, routinely perform outside the envelope of experience, safety and equipment design. From what I understand, the stats on fatalities don't seem to show a trend one way or the other or atleast that's what a lot of experienced people say.

Most experienced folks don't resent the new guys. I was new blood just like everyone else. There's always some people, especially when they first get into it, that don't respect BASE or the ethics involved in keeping sites available. Quite often the new guy doesn't even realize it until something happens.

There's always new BASE jumpers. None of us started with experience.

Well, maybe both sides have legitimate arguments??? For example, why is it that skydiving newbies are downsizing too quickly and BASE newbies are burning objects? In both instances, newbies are impatient and want to progress too quickly. Instead newbies are not taking the time to get proper training, whether it is getting proper canopy training before downsizing in skydiving or in BASE getting training/tips from the locals in how to properly jump local objects. In BASE, us that go out and work hard to make objects jumpable get screwed when newbies go out and shit all over the hard work we’ve done by not getting tips on how to jump the objects properly. The new blood in BASE, that are being spoken of here, are those that take for granted the hard work that goes into making objects jumpable. BASE is not like skydiving, we can’t simply go somewhere else once all our objects are burned…




That’s the whole point here… In both skydiving and BASE, newbies are not taking risks in areas that haven’t been discovered already. Newbies are taking risks in areas that have been well established by the experienced. So why reinvent the wheel when you can spring board off of the experienced and learn from their successes and mistakes. Then when you are par with experience in the area that you want to advance in, then take the risks where they should be taken, on uncharted ground…

In both cases, there is no reason why new blood shouldn’t take advantage of the wealth of knowledge that exists amongst the experienced jumpers. New blood and growth are not the problems here; egos, lack of patience, and doing what’s cool to look cool are the problems with some of the new blood entering BASE and skydiving…

SBCmac

This is a very interesting discussion for someone thinking about taking up BASE. In my opinion, as risk-filled as skydiving is, anybody can try skydiving, although I don't think everyone should. When I started, a friend at work asked if I wanted to try skydiving and I said sure let's go. I have taken at least 50 friends out to the DZ for their first jump and still think it's great to be around first timers.

However, I think people really need to look at BASE from all aspects before trying it. It CAN'T be considered a joy ride and I wouldn't suggest anyone try it. I think anyone considering it needs to read Tom's article and determine why they're doing it before ever jumping.

It's hard for me to believe someone with 50 skydives and some cash jumping off any fixed object. Most anyone wanting to do this clearly has no respect for BASE or the consequences of a jump gone bad. I don't think they even have respect for a skydive gone bad. How many emergency situations can you have experienced in 50 jumps? Even with DZ.COM and the incident reports you can't possibly understand the number of things that can go wrong.

I understand the financial benefits of the more the merrier, but people need to be responsible about the mentoring they are doing. If the mentor believes the student is ready, then let's jump otherwise hold off until the student is more prepared. That's how self regulation works!

And, as I've said previously, if someone wants to try their reserve off a fixed object no regulation is going to stop it...

But if I had the choice to eliminate one of the above, it would be events like Bridge Day that allow untrained skydivers to do their first BASE jump. I think Bridge day is causing a ripple affect that we are just now seeing. And it’s only going to get worse if we keep letting people bypass proper BASE training…
_________________________________________________

I was one of the guys making my first BASE jump at Bridge Day, possibly before you were born...

Bridge Day's been around a long time before you started hucking objects, and I;m sure it'll be around for a long time after you're gone...

So I guess if you don't like people entering 'your' sport you're just going to have to start rounding them up and getting rid of them like a man rather than grousing about an event that gives economic benefits to hundreds of thousands of people each year in West Virginia.

The world is about more than just you.

I wouldn't get on SBCmac's rear end too much. He has after all provided some insightful information into this discussion. I especially like his points concerning will the newbies (I'm one of them) still be around after they have witness some friends go in (and how can you argue with that). We may not always like the answers to the questions which we ask, but as something as serious as BASE, the honest answers must be given.

I don't think Bridge Day is a bad thing. It's just the talk that some people initiate this time of year abiout getting into BASE without fulling understanding what "getting into BASE" really means.

Keep the talk coming people. This has been a good thread (at least in my mind it's been good ... and heck I started it).

although I really am not a fan of how bridge day allows skydivers with 50 jumps do a BASE jump, (we lecture people all year about getting the correct skills and ethically its wrong to let / take people with low skills to a jump, but BD throws it out of the window) - I have come to learn that BD is a different beast to actuall BASE jumping. A friend of mine (who is a very experienced BASE jumper and has been to BD a few times - although he may shag sheep!!!) summed it up when he said "it aint about BASE, its about a load of people getting together and having a really cool time -its just fun" - its not BASE jumping, its just bridge day. I think its actually minimal the amount of people who walk away from it thinking "im a BASE jumper" instead they walk away saying "I did bridge day" - the ripple effect you explain is certainly not from BD, this has been going for years - and I am now starting to realise that BD does not produce people thinking "im a BASE'r...............

I still agree the 50 skydive limit on Bridge Day is questionable, and slightly hypocritical in telling people all year to get the right amount of skills and research, but for one day a year go ahead and fill ya boots......... but althought I am a BASE nazi in my views of people getting into the sport, I realise Bridge Day is a cool get together and NOT what BASE jumping is about.............

If I had to eliminate one of the above then it would be the tossas who after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc jumps thinking they are ready to take a student out............. These are people that have done a FJC and after a few jumps think they know everything.............

I made a post a few years back before I started jumping asking what made a good teacher........ there were some quite good responses (nice one TA): has this view changed over the past few years?
http://www.blincmagazine.com/...hlight=teachers+BASE

i just realiced that my gf whith 36 SL off an cessna and not having her licens yet(and newer will as she stopped after i broke a leg while BASE),she has 47 jumps as of this time(small girls and over sized harnesses dont work),she will only need 3 more skydives before she can join me at BD..hopefuly that harness wont turn her arround to her back giving her a flat spin before she hopefuly pitch....
well she aint gonna borrow my gear,i dont want it bloddy

only say this by my black humor as i would be really sad if a person like my gf one day walked up to that nice Span and close the event down forever as they go in...

to get back on track(as i already broke my promise about not dissussing BD)

Perhaps some of thouse who makes FJC´s should do as Tom does at his courses,he as for persons that can verify that this jumper will get back home to a crew/mentor that can/will pick the person up in case he starts to do somthing bad...

Skypuppy,

I don’t want to make your heart pacer skip a beat again, so if you can’t handle other people’s points of views you probably shouldn’t read any further… Just looking out for your own good, since you’re my BASE grandfather and all …

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING… WARNING… Do NOT read past this point if you can’t handle it…
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So what do you want… a cookie??? A Jr. G-man badge??? What’s your point?



Very true… Very true… And again, what’s your point??? Is the event always going to allow untrained jumpers to huck off even when I’m gone??? You’d be surprised what one person can accomplish in making things right before they’re gone…



Nowhere have I ever stated that “I don’t like people entering my sport”. And I definitely consider it to be “my sport” as much as it is “your sport”. Many of us in this sport, no matter how long we have been in BASE, have paid and continue to “Pay the Price to be in BASE”. All we have done in this thread is share our opinions about problems that are starting to see arise with how newbies are approaching the sport. You’re the one who introduced the whole “before you were born” attitude…

And not to mention… What the hell does “rounding them up and getting rid of them like a man” mean??? You need to come back to the city from whatever backwoods farm you live on where they still say the phrase “grab a rope boys, there’s going to be a hang’n”…



Oh yeah… By the way, since you’re so knowledgeable about Bridge Day and all, you obviously know that Bridge Day was not and is not based around BASE jumping. BASE jumping is simply one of many events at Bridge Day…

For your convenience, here’s a little history about Bridge Day:

“Bridge Day was first celebrated in 1980, to commemorate the completion of the New River Gorge Bridge. Since that time, the annual festival has grown to include parachutists jumping from the Bridge to the river below, rappellers dangling from ropes under the bridge, over 200 vendors selling food and arts and crafts, and fantastic entertainment. All of this combined with the spectacular Fall foliage of the New River Gorge and the sheer size of the crowd of over 200,000 makes for an unforgettable experience.” (http://www.wvbridgeday.com/bridge-day-faq/)

So I’m sure Bridge Day will be around whether BASE is a part of it or not… The NOT will happen eventually if we keep allowing inexperienced jumpers to huck off that bridge in front of hundreds of thousand of wafo’s without proper training. Things will change overnight if we traumatize one jumper’s family, because that jumper unnecessarily burns in because of lack of training, and they sue the event for negligence. Which negligence could easily be proven by allowing people to huck off that bridge with only 50 skydives and no BASE training…



When I’m at exit point, the hell it’s not about my world… And my decisions (my world) at exit point affects your world as a BASE jumper if I make the wrong decisions. The wrong decisions are not getting hurt, getting arrested, or anything that can go wrong on a BASE jump. A wrong decision is when I could have prevented an injury or being busted or anything that can go wrong on a BASE jump by simply doing the due diligence necessary to succeed… This whole thread is about newbies (and existing jumpers) not getting the proper training, including learning BASE ethics, necessary to become successful BASE jumpers. It is not about me or anyone else not wanting new blood in our sport…

Well Skypuppy, I’m not sure you made it this far down this post, but if you did I hope you now see what this thread is about and contribute instead of flame…



SBCmac

SBCMac, Skypuppy

Calm down there. I think you may be taking this a little too personally. Let's try to keep this thread moving as a useful discussion, instead of flame fest.

Consider yourselves both warned. This is a good discussion, so I won't lock the thread. Instead, I'll throw you out of the forum for a week or so, so the discussion can continue.

Perhaps you view BASE as more important than Bridge Day.

There are many thousands of people who disagree. In fact, some probably wish all the BASE sites on earth were shut down, so more people would show up at Bridge Day, and Bridge Day wouldn't have to suffer from association with folks dying in Norway, China or wherever.

Bridge Day is much, much more than a BASE event. It's a huge yearly happening that happens to have some parachuting involved. I like it a lot. I think it has independent value, which is unrelated to the greater world of BASE jumping.

How many times have you been to Bridge Day? How would you feel if the Bridge Day Commission (non-jumpers, pretty much one and all) started telling folks in Norway how they ought to manage their legal walls?

You've got my cooperation Tom ...

SBCmac

 
You are only behind the person in front of you.

Nick
BASE 194

point taken.

Uh, am I writing things that I can’t see and only you and Skypuppy are seeing? Where do I state in any of my posts that BASE is more important than Bridge Day? In fact I stated the contrary in my last post to Skypuppy. I said “So I’m sure Bridge Day will be around whether BASE is a part of it or not…” And I also stated “BASE jumping is simply one of many events at Bridge Day”…



Again, that’s why I said “BASE jumping is simply one of many events at Bridge Day” in my last post…



This is where I disagree with you… Yeah, BASE cannot affect Bridge Day or stop it, but Bridge Day can damn well affect the world of BASE. Again like I stated before, Bridge Day represents BASE to the NPS and the world. Let something go wrong with an inexperienced jumper at Bridge Day and the entire BASE community will pay for it in future dealings with the Bridge Day Commission and the NPS. It’s only going to take one jumpers family to sue Bridge Day, because of negligence, to change our world of BASE…



Once… What does that matter? And what’s your point?



I’m lost, where are you going with this??? What we’re talking about here is not abstract or hypothetical… Bridge Day is seen by others, Non-BASE jumpers, as BASE jumping. In fact, it is a proving ground as far as the NPS goes. What happens between the jumpers at Bridge Day and the NPS will greatly affect further legalization of BASE jumping on NP land. So this is again why I’m not excited to know that we let people, with only 50 skydives and no BASE training, represent BASE in front of the NPS and the world...

Again I have no problem with new blood (We are all new blood… We didn’t invent BASE…) and I have no problem with Bridge Day itself. I do however have a problem with the approach that some of the new blood is taking when getting into BASE. I only mentioned Bridge Day because I think Bridge Day condones the few newbies’ approach to BASE by allowing inexperienced skydivers, with no BASE training, to hop off the NRG in front of the NPS and the world, hundreds of thousands of wafo’s, in such a big event like Bridge Day…

SBCmac

Have you seen Lemmings Extreme? Things have gone wrong.

I have to agree. This is the conversation that can have a positive effect on BASE. Much better than "Hey BD's next weekend, wanna go?"

I think hearing people's opinions on this matter will help create an alignment in the community that will add to the quality without corrupting the fundamentals.

SBCmac I agree with many of your opinions regarding the effect one bad incident could have on BASE jumping throughout the US, but it's like someone told me one time "The way you present your opinion makes people automatically resist what you're saying"

At the time I couldn't understand what they meant but after several years of contemplation and practice I have found ways to express my opinions so that they can be heard instead of resisted.

You have some very important things to say let people hear you...

I don't think most people with 50 skydives have any idea what could happen or how they would react to a malfunction at 3500' much less 400'.

At 50 jumps, I used to think jumping out of the plane at 2000' was cool.

 

Exactly Hookit...

Yeah, I have seen videos of things gone wrong at Bridge Day... The difference is that none of the family members, to date, have put one and one together and tried to sue for negligence yet. And like I stated earlier, it’s only going to take one family member who is able to connect the dots to see the negligence that is taking place by allowing jumpers to huck off the NRG with only 50 skydives. This is why in all the posts about “The Price of BASE” and “The Letter” are focused on getting BASE jumpers and their families ready for the what can go wrong in BASE. You skip all those steps to BASE and you get killed, there is a high chance that a family member will be looking for the answers of why they son or daughter got killed at a public event like Bridge Day…

SBCmac

Point taken... Thanks tfelber ...

SBCmac

 

Are you claiming you know me? "For starters" get your information correct... Yes, I have only been in BASE for three years (skydiving 9 years), but I have seen my share of what BASE entails, from jail to hospital time to watching my best friend burn in on a BASE jump. Second, I have been to Bridge day, and I do like the event. But like I said, I have a problem with people hucking off with no BASE training in front of thousands… And finally, “wrong side of the pond”… What fricken pond are you talking about??? And finally, what does any of the above have to do with anything that is being discussed in this forum?

Not to mention, I bring to the table more than just my BASE and skydiving experience… I bring my entire life experiences to the table. So you may have been in the sport longer than me or you may be older than me, but don’t even try to compare life experience to me when were talking about training and preparation. As a Marine, I spent 9 months in the Gulf during the first Gulf war and 5 months in Somailia following that… I know what the lack of preparation and training leads to, serious injury or death and nothing else…

So don’t tell me I have a skewed P.O.V… My view is my view, it's far from skewed…

SBCmac

Tom...

I lied about behaving... Does this mean I'm going to get locked out for a week now ...

Sorry ...

...

SBCmac

---Friendly reminder---

THIS IS THE F-ING INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The moon is full, enjoy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah… By the way, since you’re so knowledgeable about Bridge Day and all, you obviously know that Bridge Day was not and is not based around BASE jumping. BASE jumping is simply one of many events at Bridge Day…
__________________________________________________

BD is about BASE jumping - if the first Bridge Day was 1980, I believe the first jumping at a BD was probably '81 (maybe '82 - it was invite only)... The marketing effort is directed towards BASE jumping - even the rafters advertise that you'll stop under the bridge and watch the parachutes...

Strangely enough, in 23 or 24 years of BASE jumping at Bridge Day there's been only 2 deaths associated with it(one a drowning before their were enough boats to handle every jumper), the last one back in about '85. And that is despite the fact that when the 50 jump rule came into effect, I believe there was NO bottom limit before that. A very conservative estimate of the number of BD jumps would be somewhere around 12 - 15,000 over the years (just counting legal Bridge Day jumps), so I think your fears are misplaced 2 deaths in 12,000 jumps is not a bad percentage compared to some other BASE jumping venues around. Certain 'pro' or 'high-profile' events started in the last 3-4 years or less have had much worse accidents then Bridge Day over the years - because BASE jumps are about the object, and with proper training the NRGB is a very safe object. I once figured I could train a chimpanzee to do a BASE jump off it without any problem...
__________________________________________________

The NOT will happen eventually if we keep allowing inexperienced jumpers to huck off that bridge in front of hundreds of thousand of wafo’s without proper training. Things will change overnight if we traumatize one jumper’s family, because that jumper unnecessarily burns in because of lack of training, and they sue the event for negligence. Which negligence could easily be proven by allowing people to huck off that bridge with only 50 skydives and no BASE training…
__________________________________________________

To begin with there are BASE courses given at BD, adequate for the object... There have been deaths and injuries, they have not shut BD down so far - if anything I believe BD is safer now than in the '80's when I started going down...

You are taking a narrow-minded view of what you think should be the way to run a sport and trying to change the way an event that has been THE introduction to the sport for THOUSANDS of BASE jumpers and been jumped by thousands of other experienced jumpers and making a judgement that it should be changed. Did you expect me (or Jason or anyone else) to say 'Yeah, that's right... Why haven't we been doing it that way... Man that SBCMac is a smart cookie?'

I don't agree with a lot of things I see happening in BASE right now, and sometimes with the attitudes of some people coming up, but BRIDGE DAY IS NOT ONE OF THEM... The day they even decide to ban skydiving equipment at BD will be a sad day (hope it never happens). Some of my fond memories are seeing a guy go off with a sleeve-packed Para-Commander with a spring-mounted p/c in a B-12 military surplus harness/container. Problems with conservative skydiving equipment (larger 7-celled canopies) are caused by lack of knowledge and/or improper rigging, not gear inadequacy.

I'm afraid so.

Treejumps,

You have your opinions and Mac has his, and I respect that, but you don't know him. I was there with him at Bridge Day.
Time in sport doesn't mean anything if you don't have the right attitude, passion, and mindset. Life experience will carry you a long way. Most old time jumpers I've met have huge egos, and look down on other jumpers just because they've been in the sport longer. BIG FREEKIN DEAL!

favaks

Conversely, attitude, passion and mindset can only get you so far without time in sport. I'm only just starting to learn that.


Wow. Really? We must be meeting totally different old timers, and they're just aren't that many of them out there. I think about the old timers I've met--Rick and Randy, Rick, Nick...I really can't think of any of them with attitudes.

Perhaps the people you think of as old timers really aren't all that old (in the sport, I mean)? When I think "old timer", I think 15+ years in the sport. The guys with 5 years and a ton of jumps (nothing against them, I'm one of them) don't really qualify, in my book.

can I reiterate, this is not me the responses are directed too.........

Tom has made this point and maybe better than I can, but Bridge Day is a stand alone event. It has a history, traditions, a life of it's own really, and certainly it can be viewed separately from the rest of the sport.

A person making a first BASE jump with only 50 skydives at Bridge Day will have a very different experience than the person who does the same thing in a more traditional BASE environment.

And anyway, when I think of hard numbers, in terms of when to begin BASE jumping, I temper my thoughts with the memory of my own first BASE jump. I had 650 skydives at the time and the whole thing was still a big scary blur that ended in a dodgy landing.

There is something else about Bridge Day and it's something we noticed years ago, and something jumpers still remark about today. You can stand by the rail for a few hours, and see almost every conceivable parachuting mistake that's possible to make, yet the parachutes still seem to work. No, we aren't kidding ourselves. I realize if it was the New River Gorge Building, instead of Bridge, we'd need industrial size squeegees to scrap them off.

However, training, especially with all the advances that have occurred in that area, is steadily closing the gap from when we all thought you needed at least 500 skydives to make a first BASE jump. In fact, there was no number then, it is just understood that you should be an "experienced" jumper.

The first time anyone said you needed 150 to 200 skydives prior to BASE is when the BASE gear manufacturers did it. This was in response to some people buying BASE rigs over the phone and making BASE jumps on their own with no prior parachuting experience. Two or three of these folks are on the list.

Will the training level ever get to the point that a BASE jump can routinely be a very first jump? I don't know. But, I wouldn't bet against it.

Someone up-board mentioned old timers with attitudes. I can't say (as I'm barely an old timer myself ) but I spent a lot of time in the lobby of the Holiday Inn this year thinking of a time when I probably knew every face and name that BASE jumped. Now I see hundreds of experienced BASE jumpers I wouldn't know from anybody on the street.

Go ahead and try to wipe the smile from my face . . .

Nick
BASE 194

 

>>Dick DG by far does the best job responding to the "what are we going to do about all these newbies" threads.<<

Who ya calling a Dick . . .

NickD
BASE 194

This is definately an interesting and educational thread and I'm glad we all have the opportunity to add to the discussion. I just got the chance to read everyone's posts and I can understand all sides of the issue. I'm sure Avery and Andy have been snickering along with me if they've read this thread.

I won't get into much detail, but here is some info that may enlighten us all.....

1) The 50 jump rule came into effect for BD2003. Before that, there was NO minimum. I discussed implementing a minimum with many jumpers and with Bill Bird (BD co-organizer and someone who's been to every BD since 1982). We agreed that 50 was a good number for a variety of reasons. However, we are open to changing it in the future. Just for kicks, did you know the average number of skydives for a BD2004 jumper was 1199 (the highest number over the last 3 years)? If I were to go through the list, you'll not find many jumpers in the 50-100 jump range. I'll try to analyze the jump numbers and post that information for everyone to digest.

Further statistical data on BD is available HERE

2) BD is an easy first BASE jump. As Skypuppy mentioned, the last fatality was 1987 (not to say that it couldn't happen every year). We do everything humanly possible to make it safe each year.

3) BD has been around for 25 years. It is what it is and it's probably not going to change. I'm already counting the days until next year.

As I mentioned before, this thread is quite valuable. Anyone who identifies problems should also provide solutions. Do you think the 50 jump rule is not enough? If so, then what would be a good number?

sorry guys your all wrong.

Will you tell any whith a US BASE # were they got their first(now we talk qualifying)object at BD that they didnt got it as it wasnt a BASE jump?
come one..
Im even sure Nick D will agree here, Jumping off an object whith a packed canopy on your back is BASE jumping.
dont play your self arround.

Tom about the big walls on this site of the pond..
as i know they require more than 50 jumps to enter a COURSE just to let people jump off the wall.I do agree that an cliff aint the best object to start whith,but i dont think you can compare the wall and BD

so not having a BD the year after a fatality wont matter?? i doubt.BD is old and most of us hope it only gets older,thats why theese concerns has been said...

Cheers Jason im happy to read your post,just what i needed
Im happy that most jumpers atemting BD has far more jumps than the 50 we talks alot about.

I can only speak from what i read as i sadly never ere to a BD event yet.

just one Q,as you say you guys might considder the jump # thing,if the jumpers has so high jump #´s i guess it wont be a problem any way?I mean if most people are experienced skydivers anyway,they wont care about a rule they easy can overcome.
Just a thourght...

all i do is fighting so i one day can stand on that S whith you guys,and BASE jump off it

>>Do you think the 50 jump rule is not enough? If so, then what would be a good number?<<

Hi Jason,

You can certainly up the numbers rule, and it's maybe only natural in times when jumps are easier to make, but if I may, bear in mind that Bridge Day has always been, for many people, an available portal into the BASE community. Unless, the worst begins to happen, I think you should always try to keep that door as wide open as possible.

Nick
BASE 194

Be aware that I have banned SBCMac for 7 days, so he will not be able to respond to this thread. His failure to continue responding to your points is my fault, not his.

Do all the jumpers who make the trek to BD get to jump? With a one day event and the growth in demand I think the number of jumpers who get to jump may become a limiting factor and a good reason to change the requirements.

50 skydives to participate is probably not enough, however the risk at BD sounds substantially lower than other places one could start. And, I've been told over and over an S is the best place to start.

But it sounds to me like BD is becoming for skydivers what a static line jump is for many wuffos. A chance to try skydiving/BASE jumping in a relatively low risk environment. After one static line jump you could call yourself a skydiver, but you are definitely greener than green. I would assume the same goes for someone with 50 skydives at BD.

If introducing people to BASE is one of the underlying goals of BD then (and don't flame me on this, it's just a consideration) maybe the best thing is to limit the number of experienced jumpers. Afterall, how much do they have to learn at BD compared to someone who has never BASE'd.

The statistics you posted are great, but rather than the mean number of skydives it would be more meaningful to know the min, max, and median. The mean can be rather scewed by 10 guys with 10,000 jumps each.

Is there any way to compile stats on the number of people doing their 1st jump at BD and the number of these that continue BASE?

While BD sounds like a great, seemingly safe way to experience a fixed-object jump I think people interested in pursueing BASE would be much further along the curve attending a multi-day FJC.

Does a 1st timer learn how to pack at BD or just drop their gear for a packer? What if it's your own gear?

changes in bold.

Over the last 3 years I've been involved...yes, everyone had the opportunity to jump multiple times. Some made 1, some made up to 6 in the past. A few decided not to jump. Since I've been coming to BD (1992), there might have only been one year where the weather didn't allow everyone to jump.



Regardless of growth, we cap it at 450 each year. Growth shouldn't affect the jump number requirement.


You mean an S, right?


BD *is* a place to make a first BASE jump, but it's also a place where you'll find the most experienced jumpers in the world each year. The mix of the two is unique, but very special.

BD is a real BASE jump with real consequences. I think you'll find that the majority of new blood makes their first BASE jump at Bridge Day, the Perrine, or Norway as of late. BD is what it is and if you dig too deep into its purpose in BASE, you're probably wasting bandwidth.


Shouldn't ALL first BASE jumps be low risk?


Absolutely. Our first jump courses at BD are nowhere near what is offered at the Idaho bridge. I urge my two first jump instructors, who coincidentally teach FJC's in Idaho, to suggest a more in depth course after BD.


After BASE jumping for over 11 years, I STILL learn a lot at BD every year. When you stop learning, you're in real trouble. BD is hard to explain to anyone who hasn't been there....but we do put off about 90 first timers each year (out of 400+ who show up). BD is just as much for the first timers as it is for the experienced jumpers. BD is also just as much (and maybe even more) about the knowledge, friends, and partying as it is about jumping. Putting off newbies is not a goal of BD, but simply a product of the event. It would make life much smoother for me with only experienced jumpers, but it's also priceless to see the look on a first jumper's face after landing! And that means a lot to me! It's the big reason I chose to organize.


Working on it. Will post the data when done. I'm still enjoying that fact that my phone is down from 10 calls a night to about 2.....and that we don't start planning for next year until (GULP) November 10th. The fun never stops.


Not without bugging them too much.


I doubt anyone would disagree with you on that.


We do have packing classes and all jumpers are encourgaged to pack themselves. Packers? Not this year.

Thanks for the input.

I'm hoping you mistyped that. B is for Building: probably the worst first jump object.

That was a typo...fixed.

I think of BD as a public event -- it's legal (thanks to the efforts of a few BASE jumpers) for anybody to jump off of it during that event. Jason et al aren't "inviting" people to jump off of it so much as managing the distribution of the limited number of slots which are available -- limited due to the exigencies of security screens, the limited time period, etc. Looked at this way, they're going above and beyond the call of duty by trying to make sure that nobody goes off with, like, a patio umbrella or something. People show up with all kinds of equipment in various states of repair, and any first-jump and/or packing instruction they get is often much more than they might otherwise get. (Of course Jason and crew do much more than this for the newbies and the experienced alike -- platforms, contests, awards, transpo, stuff, etc.)

It's a legal object (for those few hours) like the potato is. If you want to jump off it, you can. If you think you might want training first, well that's an excellent idea.

From a BASE perspective, my first experience there, as I recall, was not unlike any other first BASE jump might be in that I got BASE-specific gear and training well ahead of time, thanks to mentors whom I had sought out, and spent some time under my BASE canopy at the DZ first -- an old-school FJC, if you will

Of course, the age of the event, traditions, mix of people, public attention, reputation among the skydiving community and overall vibe certainly make it very different from what one might normally think of as BASE jumping.

Boy, that bridge sure looked low the first year. When I went back it seemed so high.

How sadly ironic your post was Jason..

Austrailians always bounce back for the better, and i think people like yourself, Slim & Dwain set a benchmark for your countrymen to aspire to.

Here's to bouncing back.


BSBD.

And I have nothing to add to that.

a benchmark for the rest of the world...........

a dark year.................

Hello all...

I have returned from the banned persons' solitary confinement cell today ... And after 7days of intense BASE anger management therapy, I have been rehabilitated and I promise to play nice ...

...

SBCmac

peterk,

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I'm lost... I'm really trying to see the value added to this discussion from your post, but can't... So would you please elaborate so that the rest of us know what you're talking about???

Thank you peterk ...

SBCmac

If you want to argue, lets argue...

But, send me a PM when you want to meet up for a jump, it would be much more fun...

Glad to see that dz.com let you back on...

P

I'm not asking to argue... I'm asking what your last post meant... You post was directed at me, wasn't it!? So, since it was directed at me, it would be good for me to understand what you meant, right?!

As far as getting together... Anytime... I'll PM you an talk about logistics...

SBCmac

I'm pretty sure he meant that this is just a random internet discussion, and no one ought to get to worked up or angry about it. I took his post as directed at everyone posting in the thread.

Awesome, thanks Tom... That's all I was asking ... I truly didn't know what he meant... But it all makes sense now...

...

SBCmac

Wow....dz.com prozac is really effective..... I think this boy is on the verge of buying a pink velvet teddy bear.

Come on now, have some empathy for your BASE brother … Anger management is an ongoing challenge that takes many years to master … My dropzone.com counselor did recommend the pink velvet teddy bear though… May I ask where you got yours …

…

SBCmac

Dude.... your rehabilitation seems most complete; no dis or offense in any way intended Your "conversational triggers" have been missed by me this past week

Teddy bears? I believe the main dealer is www.fuzzywarmloveyteddiesbytomaiello.com, but you may find a dealer closer to you

Your post made me laugh so hard... Thanks for the laugh ...

...

SBCmac