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Hi,
I was wondering how many people use tail gates on slider up jumps. What type of tail gate and if they have experienced any problems.

I'm thinking that masking tape on the control lines is a very good idea.

Thanks
George

I've had great success taping my control lines and inside D lines together, I won't do a slider up jump without doing it.

I made about 7 at tf using masking tape. Making only two raps at the same spot where your talegate is. You should be wrapping the same lines with the masking tape that would go in your talegate. Works great and will save your back.

I use my tailgate to hold the slider and two wraps of masking tape on just the brake lines, just below the attachment points. Works really well so far.

To you guys that are saying "it works great", what exactly do you mean? Were you having problems without some kind of slider up tail gate? Is you slider up tail gate making a positive difference to the 'quality' of your openings? Or do you just mean "it hasn't mal'd on me yet" .

Gus

I'm not disagreeing, but I seem to remember that someone who was doing this at Petronas last year had a line over that cleared (was filmed by Anne) so it may not be the "answer"

Neil

reply]To you guys that are saying "it works great", what exactly do you mean? Were you having problems without some kind of slider up tail gate? Is you slider up tail gate making a positive difference to the 'quality' of your openings? Or do you just mean "it hasn't mal'd on me yet" .
---------------------------------

Well, in my very limited experience.....

I witnessed a line over in Norway. With his descent rate, he was going in for sure.
The line over cleared about 20m of the ground and he got away with it. (I have video, not sure where I can upload. Line over appears to have been caused by a massively orbiting ZP PC.)

Since then I have started to use masking tape to control the lines during packing, and to try and promote nose first inflation. Both help in preventing line overs.

I hadn't met any jumpers that do this (coming from the UK, we don't get many slider up jumps).

The guy who had the line over, started using a regular tail gate, (with small mesh slider !!!!! not large)

This year in Norway, they had 4 or 5 line overs I think. All though not fail proof it seams like using a tail gate of sorts could help prevent these.

George

You could upload it to SkyDivingMovies.com, or if you don't want to put it there, I can stick it up on my web page, if you email it to me.


Do you know anything about the PC? Manufacturer? Vented? Was symmetry of PC and/or attachment checked afterward?

E-mailed to you....

The PC was symmetrical, I think he got the PC from Vertigo.

I was surprised to find someone using a non-vented, ZP Pilot chute in Norway, especially one with no load tapes.

George

I am not a fan of the no tape PC's. I have a nice photo of one looking like a figure 8 during inflation. I've also seen some newer Vertigo PC's that have topskin load tapes, so I'm not even sure that anyone is making them without the tapes any more.

I don't get it. With slider up the tail has already a reefing why in the hell you want to tape the lines or use a tailgate? CR advices against such a practice. More insights would be appreciated.

Also if you use masking tape why don't you just go with the tailgate?

In Norway this summer I saw masking tape being used very creatively on the longer control lines of a 5 control-line canopy to keep them taut - much better than a tailgate would.

I also saw some very experienced and knowledgeable jumpers using direct and indirect slider control, a fine mesh slider and a tailgate with 4 wraps of the bungee - terminal only!

You probably don't want to use a tailgate with a large mesh slider so for subterminal slider-up delays the tape is the way to go. And WLO toggles.

Jules

Can you elaborate?

No, I'll get it wrong but hopefully Ron L will read this and tell us all about it. Seems to cause twists though....


Jules

<my opinion>

One reason it's not advised against is was very few people ever contested it or tested.

I've used Tape for a whole bunch of jumps now and I'm satisfied that it's a good method. Tape is a good alternative to a tailgate slider up or down, and is probably more predictable in a slider up scenario. I still use the tailgate slider down though. 2 Wraps of masking tape is just enough to contain the lines.

I just did 12 slider up jumps with a tailgate from the Perrine to see if there was a notable difference. As far as how the opening felt, there was none that I could tell. Delays were pretty short, 2 to 2 1/2seconds (Except when dexterbase took me a bit lower )

2 wraps of standard mini rubberbands cut in half, were used with an additional wrap around only one leg of the tailgate. The additional wrap was used to add just a tiny bit of tension on the rubber band. 2 single wraps practically fell off and 3 full wraps seemed to be too much.

Why use a tailgate or tape slider up? In theory, the same reason jumping slider down. To keep the brakelines in the back where they belong and encourage nose first inflation. Just be careful not to tighten it too much.

Every single part on a parachute moves so occasionally lines will go where you least want them.

Keep in mind though, I tend to experiment alot. I have no reason to encourage my actions.

I doubt it's really related, but I'm just throwing this out there, with my limited number of jumps. The only off-heading/uneven inflation/opening I had all weekend was the one jump that I didn't use tape on the brake lines. It was noted from my point of view, above, and below that the tail on the right side of the canopy was up and running before the rest of the pack job. Every other opening I had, packing the exact same way (but with a tape gate) was dead on. Just thowing it out there.

Anybody, what are the possible effects of tape on lines? I know that writing ink does effect the strenght of lines, so could glue do so as well? Hope not. Experiments usually lead to succes and to disaster...

Ronald Overdijk

It's not really to keep the lines taut. The main aim is to preserve the careful reefing of the tail and the central placement of the control lines and inner Cs & Ds, whilst the pack job is cocooned. I use around three wraps 3/4" masking tape and would also like to think that it constricts the lines enough to promote centre cell first opening as well, although this is total guesswork.

Using masking tape doesn't cause line twists. But I think I'll carry on flying my S3 after deployment from now on.

Good plan.

I know several people with hundreds of jumps with the "tape gate" and it doesn't seem to affect the lines at all.

I'd say it's more to, as hookitt said, promote nose-first inflation and keep the tail in place during opening. I think it helps with symmetry, as well. To that end, I'd say it helps reduce line twists and off-headings, rather than promote them (as one person asked), but that's just my theory.

I use two wraps of 1/4" masking tape, on only the brake lines, just below the attachment points. I don't do the Cs because A) I think the slider takes care of that and B) I'm using the tailgate or a rubberband on an inboard C for direct control on the slider. I am imagining some inconsistent snivels from keeping too much "closed" -- one thingy per line group says I. I think too much tape could lead to inconsistency in duration of openings and possibly heading. And too little would basically be like not having a tape gate at all. Again -- just my theories, but there are probably those out there that have evidence pertaining to such.

However, being that I don't jump anything that's super technical or critical yet, getting this specific doesn't mean much to me (though it does satisfy my geek side).

That's interesting. I guess I have to do some experimenting at bridge day...

Having started jumped prior to the invention of the tailgate, I have definitely noticed a significant improvement in opening heading quality with the use of the slider down tailgate. I have noticed the same for other jumpers.

Does this mean you use the tailgate on slider up too? If so do you include the C lines too or just the D?

Thanks

I knew I'd get it wrong. Whatever Ron's motivation, a useful by-product of his (anally) neat tail flaking and masking tape is 2 little loops of extra control line held firmly in place above the masking tape and taut lines below.

On my Troll when I pack these inside the tailgate they start held up but slip a bit as the pack job progresses.

Ron's don't move and as he takes at least 2 fag breaks (English sense!) per packjob they have plenty of time to migrate. If I ever jump the Troll slider up I'll tape it.

Jules

If you're at all concerned about it, do what I do-- Wrap the tape sticky-side out.
mh

I do that also. RH (the sometimes unpopular one) showed me that trick. That way the tape sticks in place on the F-111 (not sure if there are issues there or not, but I'm not too worried about it), which keeps the whole bundle nicely centered relative to the rest of the pack job.

I have now uploaded the lineover movie to www.skydivingmovies.com

Search for "Norway 2004 by Georgeous George"

Sorry but the line over is just a small bit towards the end, you will have to download the whole thing. I will try and seperate it when I get time and upload just that bit

Thanks
George

Nice video George............... seems like a nice trip you had! love ya work........

is your mobile still fucked? are you on the same number? PM your number and we can catch up.....

Mac

The Petronas, Partial line-over that cleared was mine.

I have had another partial line-over line over that cleared
using no Tape. on video also.

Both partial Line-overs cleared them self between pressurization
and un-stowing the Toggles.

Also.... My pack jobs were text book with strong delay.

I have personally seen a few line-overs start and clear on other
jumpers and several on video over the years.

I think that the partial line-over that clears by it self, between
pressurization and un-stowing the Toggle's.
*** Happens more than jumpers are aware of..***

I have learned a bunch since I have been using masking tape on
Break lines to retard the tail on opening and let the nose and
pressurization get the dominate lead on the opening. To stop the
Partial line-over that clears by it self, and/or stopping the line-over
from happening.

The biggest mistake that I made was to **Grossly Underestimate **
the power that the tail of the canopy has when it busts open on a
Slider Up jump.

Since then I have almost doubled the number of raps of tape to different
Free Fall air speeds of canopy delay's.

I feel that I was NOT using near enough tape.
I also feel that retarding the opening of the tail on slider up jumps has
a direct effect on the line-over factor.

Also, be aware that Taping the break lines has a direct effect on the speed
at which the canopy stages it opening.
That is why between using, Direct Slider control, Primary line stow and
tape on Break line's.
I don't roll the Nose of the canopy and rap the center cell around the pack job on Terminal
speed Free Fall on my, un-valve V-Tec's to get smooth controlled opening.
Not having to roll the nose on terminal air speed jumps I feel adds a better
chance of a good Heading on opening.

This is not a scientific study. Just Trial and Error, jump by jump.

Well,

I did few jumps at BD using a fine mash slider with the tailgate. Delays were 4-5 sec. Openings were OK but they seem a little slower especially during the last part of the inflaction, maybe too much reefing of the tail? I need to experiment more but so far I cannot see any cons. Heading wise I could not see any differences.

By the way I am jumping an ACE 240 loaded .70 with a Per Pro.

If you have experimented with this set up please post your feeback.

Also, DON'T use the tailgate with large hole mash slider and don't lark-head the rubber band!

what are your experiences and findings that lead to you say this?

None personal. I've herd of stuck taligates because one side of the rubber band was lark-headed. There have been few discussions on this topic both here and blinc.

As for the large hole, the tailgate could get trapped in one of the mash holes possibly inducing a stuck slider resulting in a partial inflation.

yes I am very aware of this...........


so due to this discussion you are sure enough to post a "DONT" on a configuration you have only "read" about?

This is silly.

I've only read about of possible line overs jumping slider down w/out tailgate. Do I go and try it out to see if I get a line over? At BD I refused to pack a slider down because the guy did not have a tailgate so I've told him that I was going to pack it slider up or he should have found someone else to pack it.

Apparently those that had the tailgate stuck (on slider down/removed) lark-headed the rubber band, one reason not to do it.

I also read there have been few instances of a tailgate stuck on a large hole mash.

What is your point anyway? Are you implying we should experience mulfunctions and re-invent the wheel?

your right, this is silly.................. I cant be fucked to bother continuing this......

my point is dont say "DONT" when you dont really know what the fuck you are talking about........ especially on a forum of new jumpers who may take advice from people who appear confident in what they say..........

I have video of an experienced jumper getting a slider down tailgated lineover. I'll try to post it sometime and start a discussion about that.

Have you compared with large mesh and tailgate? I'd bet that the slower inflation you saw was due to using a small mesh slider at 4-5 seconds, rather than the tailgate.

Tom,

I won't use a tailgate with a large mash as per described earlier.

As for large vs. small, I honestly don't find any difference in heading performance hence when I need a slider I go with the fine. You are right about slower openings.

Next thing I want to try is WS terminal with fine mash and the tailgate with a 38" PC.

This is the first I've heard! Is this the only lineover with the tailgate you know of?

Do you know the details of the jump and the set up? Like the delay and the number of wraps?

You should definately post the video and discuss the matter!

I maybe came too strong on this one. This is what I would never do. If lark-heading the tailgate with a large hole mash has been working fine for you then be it. Again I won't do it nor pack it for somebody else.

It's all good!