Basejumper.com - archive

 There is a guy in our area that we took on a few BASE jumps, and now he has been taking all kinds of people with him. He took an AFF student with only 5 skydives BASE jumping. The student lost a toggle on deployment and almost hit a guyed wire.

We have tried to talk to the guy about getting a MENTOR and stop trying to be THE MAN and stop taking everybody but he wont listen and we are worried that he is gonna hurt someone or himself.

What do we do.

BASE 708

Ask him if he has a mentor or thinks he has one.

Offer to be his mentor or prod him to one?

Hey man good to see ya on again. You have for the last couple of years been the "go to guy" for this area. Up until now everyone wanting to jump the objects around there came to you at the Greatest DZ in the World. Since BASE is self regulated, and you definately have enough going on to keep you busy, this will probably continue until either(1) Someone gets hurt or (2)Someone baby sits the dude until he gets enough experience to take people jumping. I really don't think you should worry too much about it. Just put it out that no one is to BASE with this guy and give them the more obvious alternative to jump with you if you ever get thirty seconds free time. If you want I will help when I get across the big pond for BD. Later on sucker.

Is his (or his friends') death going to burn your objects?
If so... fuck him up!
If not....well Darwin thinks it's cool.
I'm just talking shit cause this thread looks like a troll call.
Seriously WTF ?
~J

I agree. Have him killed before someone gets hurt.

the ease of getting into BASE nowadays is going to increase this sort of thing.

It seems that anyone with 250 skydives and some cash can go and do a FJC. I keep trying to stress that the lack of fundamental knowledge, skill and ethics is lacking in some of the newer jumpers I have seen / spoken to. Now I only have a limited amount of time in BASE (2+ years) but before I did my FJC I had spent 2 years previous learning everything I could, getting the skills I needed and speaking to active jumpers......... at the time I thought this was the norm, it seems not to be.

People are getting hurt left right and center due to poor canopy skills and lack of knowledge (I have heard of many people mis-rigging for slider up jumps) - fundamental knowledge and skills are lacking alot!

I seriously beleive that this is an issue at the moment in BASE that is largely going ignored, with the advent of BASE#1000 I think many people illequiped are jumping a path they are not prepared for........ I hope I am wrong, but I feel a dark time heading towards us........


BASE jumping is not cool, and its not forgiving...........

just my 2 busted bones worth!

I'm in no position to offer advice on this (just had my first BASE jump yesterday), but I will say that as someone who has WANTED to BASE for a long while, I waited until I honestly thought I was ready, and then made sure I went with someone who not only knew what they were doing, but who could make sure I wouldn't screw up and hurt myself or burn that site. I would venture to say that anyone who has the least bit of common sense and/or one iota of intelligence would seek out the experienced, long time BASE jumpers and work with them to make sure BASE jumping doesn't go the way of the Dodo or turn land owners against jumpers in general. I'd be willing to bet at least SOME of these land/tower owners talk, and bad business for them is bad business for BASE jumpers.

I guess for some, humility is over-ridden by less rational emotions and thought processes.

I'll certainly BASE again, but only with people I trust from their experience, knowledge and skill. Otherwise, I'm just tattooing a possible statistic on my caracass.

It's not just you. We've got the same problem here, but waaaay more so.

 

>>I don't understand the softness of everyones attitude about BASE in this forum. I would think that for most, the seriousness of the activity in which you are about to undertake is driven home standing on the edge. Yes you can die. Do it long enough, and will probably watch someone die. Do it long enough and you will certainly be seriously injured. Is this confusing? What one should ask is: "Is what I get from this worth the costs?" whether you have a 10 jumps or 10,000

so tell me, is what you do worth the risks, and why?
have you ever stood on the edge?
have you ever left the edge?
have you ever stood on the edge without a rig?

if someone is standing next to me and tells me i will CERTAINLY be seriously injured, i'd slap them in their fucking mouth.

there is NOTHING certain about life except death.
the original reason this was posted was to try and eliminate some of the risks among newer jumpers. unless you really know what and who you're talking about, i'd ask you to keep your opinions to yourself.
&thanks for wasting your time reading this.
~E

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

When a topic is posted in a discussion forum, it is generally accepted that it is there for discussion and opinions from all participants in the forum.

You are welcome to express your opinion--namely that everyone who isn't "in the know" just shut up. Personally, I'm glad that you're not in a position to enforce that opinion here.

I had a friend pretty much felt the same way. Except that he was quite a bit nicer, and was unlikely to slap anyone. Instead he just ignored a large number of very experienced jumpers who told him that he was certain to be seriously injured. Where did it get him? A nice spot on Nick's list.

When people express concern for your safety, slapping them in the mouth is an inappropriate response.

 
>>Wow I can see you've been a part of this community for a long time.




>>Especially without a rig how profound. My point is simply that in this sport all you can do is stack the deck in your favor. Doesn't mean that card isn't still in there.

>>I suppose in my own crude and inarticulate way I was just trying to say that the consequences of participating in BASE are severe and that coddling new BASEr's can lead to a very traumatic "awakening"

There's a fine line one has to walk when someone new shows up on the scene... especially when you're skeptical that they're cut out for the sport.

If you're too blunt, the person may take a "screw all of you, I'll do it alone" attitude. At the same time, there are those who just shouldn't be in the sport.

In the really severe cases, I'm not sure how you reconcile the two, and I'm not sure there is a right answer other than go with your gut insinct.

if someone was next to me when i was about to jump and said it was a bad idea, i'd reconsider. i suppose i wasn't specific in my response.

all i'm saying is i think it's pretty obvious what the risks are in this sport, well before you start to climb.

furthermore, when i started AFF, no one said to me that i was certainly going to get hurt at some point after i started jumping. skydiving and BASE jumping are inherently dangerous activities. both sports are based on a series of calculated risks. if someone can't accept that, they should not have ever been here in the first place. my point was that this post was started to see what can be done to help reduce some of that calculated risk among new jumpers. not to question the basis of the sport.

i had no intention of making a post on this, but i do know the situation. ncjumpjunkie is someone i know and consider a very good friend, and who is also a very knowledgable jumper. so, i take his post seriously because it effects all of us,especially in our area. so maybe my point is a little clearer. maybe not. i just know that I don't need to be reminded of the dangers other than maybe a case by case scenario. no one knows everything about everthing. that's the thrill of life.

ZegeunerLeben, i understand your point, but i feel it's irrelevent in this thread. my opinion is that a new jumper should have their awakening, traumatic or not, long before they step off of a fixed object.

tom, i know i'm not a moderator, no disrespect intended. but at first glance, that did not seem to be a concern for my safety, more like a disciplinary warning. what is "long enough"?

i'll leave it at that for now...
~E

I saw where you were coming from, E. In skydiving, we would not only go into a collective apoplectic fit if someone with low jump numbers found some magical way around the current training and license programs and managed to take someone new up for a skydive, we would all agree that it's insane. Your point was that we all know the risks involved in the sport/s we have chosen, but that there needs to be a way to help reduce potential problems associated with extremely less experienced jumpers taking brand-new jumpers up for their first BASE jumps. I will say, however, that as a brand-spanking new neophyte to BASE, I personally would only seek out the best and most experienced BASE jumpers to get me started, the ones who not only have been doing it for quite a while, but also come highly recommended by their peers. But I'm silly like that.

It's kind of ironic your writing this isn't it John????

We thought the same thing about you when you blazed onto the scene. Not wanting to listen to more experienced jumpers, jumping well established sites in the day with no concern for other jumpers that worked hard in opening up the sites, taking people who should not be BASE jumping yet, jumping sites outside of your experience level, "teaching" when you had few jumps and little knowledge of the sport, etc. We tried to talk to you on more than one occasion about your antics but you readily blew us off just like your 'student' has done to you. I guess not being selective in who YOU take on a jump is coming back to bite you.

It sucks doesn't it??????

My suggestion, which is probably worthless in your opinion, is to talk to him again and make it clear about what your upset about and how he can and will hurt someone if he continues his ways. Explain about the potential lawsuits he faces when someone under his 'supervision' goes in, maybe that will control his ego a little. Talk to him don't scold him, that will only make him put up his defences and then your fighting a losing battle. Ask him why he feels the need to 'teach' when he doesn't fully grasp the sport and the dangers. What is he looking to get out of it??? Ego stroking?
Also it might help if you are more selective in who you decide to 'teach'.

just my .02
Good luck it's a tough battle.

570

I don't know this guy, but I agree that it is interesting that we have yet to see one reply from him in the several days that the thread has been on this forum.


NCJumpJunkie,
After reading these replies, what do YOU plan to do?

I'm not trying to instigate anything or delve too deeply into things I'm not entirely privy to, but I wanted to make two points, at least.
1. As far as I'm aware, John did not "teach" this jumper with regards to BASE. If he did, and I am mistaken, my apologies. His concern is that this jumper, who is a regular at our DZ, seems to not be taking instruction and guidance from the more experienced BASE jumpers and is taking even less experienced student skydivers out for their first BASE jumps. I'm aware that you gave some examples of how to approach this, and with the exception of the seemingly snide remark about being more selective in who John decides to "teach", your reasoning SOUNDS good. As you seem to be aware of, talking to someone and having them take your words to heart are two entirely different beasts.

2. I'm guessing that a less antagonistic approach to answering John's question might be met with less resentment than I'm feeling right now. John is a good man, a great instructor and a wonderful DZO. I would venture to say that no regular jumpers at our DZ have the least bit of trouble with him. He has gone out of his way to make us all feel welcome and appreciated at our DZ, and takes great pains to ensure we all do our best to be safe in this sport. Since his original post was not an attack on you, or the jumper in question, your approach seems to reflect an unreasonable amount of animosity.
I consider John to be a good friend, and as any good friend will tell you, an attack on him is an attack on everyone who calls him friend. I hope you found some lingering sense of peace in writing that response. I truly do.

Quote: "I hope you found some lingering sense of peace in writing that response. I truly do. "

And the same for you. Unless you huck, it is no concern of yours. You have no idea what it takes to open and maintain sites. Once they are gone, they are gone. If your pal was putting people off that he shouldn't, then 570 has every right to say what he has. If the trash is overflowing at the DZ or manifest is not nice nice with you, well then you have a legitiment gripe.

Stick with what is relevant.

Cya.

aint that the truth......


http://www.blincmagazine.com

Actually, I think this thread is extremely relevant to the purpose of this forum.

Look what it's about: New jumpers and skydivers who want to get into BASE, and how they do it.

Personally, I think this is a discussion that really ought to be held with skydivers, as _they_ are the target audience.

so it is either this or its not................


re-read the threads.........

"New jumpers and skydivers who want to get into BASE, and how they do it."

Yes, this is going to be an important topic today and into the future. I don't think that the topic of "I'm a skydiver and I don't like what you said about my sky-buddy" is part of that. At a bare minimum I think one should either be involved with base, or have an actual interest in getting involved. I don't care what goes on in tiddly-winks circles, nor would I involve myself in their affairs. I think that there are enough issues in base that we don't need the periphery adding their 2 cents just becasue they can. But thats just my 2cents.

Cya.

read up, he has at least one jump

added:
link to post

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1192996#1192996

 Jason,
Has it been that long ago that you dont remember the reason that you guys didnt like me. It was for going out and jumping sites with my freind Geoff (BASE709) not taking new jumpers and teaching people. I started showing some very experianced skydivers the ways of HUCKING only after a HUNDRED or so jumps of my own.

The reson for my post was not to BASH this guy but to show him that everyone in BASE felt the same about this as we do. After talking to this guy with no responce I decided to post against my better judgement. And once again insted of this being helpful it has turned into a BASHING session.

The guy in general is my freind!! I just want him to realize that if hes only gonna hurt himself I have no problem with that, just dont hurt someone else that really doesnt realize what there getting into! I live by "IF YOUR GONNA BE STUPID YOU BETTER BE TOUGH".

Im not gonna make him an outcast like you guys have with me and Geoff. Oh I remember what it was like not having anyone to BASE with but Geoff. Now thats changed. I have a BASE freindly DZ with about 15 steady BASE jumpers to HUCK with. HOWS THAT FOR IRONIC !!!!!

JOHN HAYES
NC BASE 3
BASE 708

I don't know any of the circumstances surrounding this, but I just wanted to comment:


In my opinion, 100 BASE jumps is inadequate experience to be teaching new jumpers.

Just comparing what I knew that I knew when I had 100 jumps, and what I now (1000 jumps later) know that neither I nor anyone else actually knows (did you follow all that?), I'm frightened at how ignorant (and overconfident) I was then.

 <In my opinion, 100 BASE jumps is inadequate experience to be teaching new jumpers.

Just comparing what I knew that I knew when I had 100 jumps, and what I now (1000 jumps later) know that neither I nor anyone else actually knows (did you follow all that?), I'm frightened at how ignorant (and overconfident) I was then.>
__________________________________________________ Not teaching but going with some guys that had hundreds of skydives, and were gonna jump if I was there or not.

Man this has turned into a bit of a flame fest. John taught me how to BASE about a year ago and was there for every other jump until I moved to Europe. He also taught my wife. Along with NC2, 788, 789, and a few others, who also didn't have any issues with it. He pretty much runs the area and no one has a problem with it. Well except a few guys that can't let go of the past. Some peple just don't get along. Since I have been jumping no one has gotten hurt and everyone seems to be getting a hold on the sport. He is asking the question to the whole net-based community that was never afforded to him. Input without the smartassed comments would probably make this forum look a lot less like a moron show. Now that is just MY two cents. later on

Yes John I remember the reasons but I guess you do not....
As I remember you had asked 515 if you could tag along on a BASE excursion to scope out new sites that we had planned well in advance of your request. 515 respectfully declined because he thought it was over your head since you had NO jumps and NO idea how to pack even though you had many skydives. So you got pissed and went out to 3 sites that weekend and jumped all 3 (B<300ft,S-210ft,E-150ft). Now these were not beginner sites but you treated them as such since you didn't know any better and were too impatient to wait for another weekend when we could show you and help out. You and Geoff were lucky you didn't die that weekend and from that point on you felt like you were alienated from the group, which was in your head. From what I recall you NEVER contacted me to ask for help or guidance, you just took it upon yourself to go out and learn on your own, pissed at us for not catering to you. You're right that I was upset about how you went about 'learning', if you can call it that, but I got over it. then the reports of you teaching people came in. 150ft cliff or a sub 300ft building is not a good site for a first jump, can't you see that?????? Then burning that 2000footer and basically saying it wasn't you and you were a victim of circumstance... come on man it's one thing to burn a site and take responsibility but it's totally different to try to weasel your way out of it and blame other people.
John, I have nothing against you personally and I respect what you have done in the skydiving community but BASE is not skydiving and I think you have a hard time separating them. It's great that you taut having taught 15 jumpers "the ways of HUCKING" but the way I see it is that you have brought 15 skydivers into BASE with little regard for their safety or wellbeing, to make you look like 'the man', as you put it.

How do you expect your new 'guinea pigs' to follow the rules (respect, knowledge and safety) when you never did??
Instant gratification (impatience) and looking important (ego) is what everyone wants in todays society, but NO ONE wants to put in the time or effort to learn it right. What a sad world we live in

Once again, I wish you luck in talking to your friend and I hope you can get your point across and come to some understanding.

570

Matt,
So no one has gotten hurt, huh?? Aren't you laid up now from not knowing how to jump slider up? So did John teach you that? How about a busted up ankle from jumping in unfavorable conditions that happened to one of his 'students'. I could give more examples but there is no need to...
It's quite funny that you think John 'runs the show' in NC, I guess either he has made you believe that or you didn't put in the time or effort to look around and find other more experienced BASE jumpers in the area. If you did you would have found out that most of the sites that John and his crew are jumping were opened up and continually jumped by.... you guessed it someone else! In fact I know of a few jumpers that would be offended with that statement!

Heal fast

570

Tom did i misunderstand you the otherday were i understanded that it were better to help people that really would do this no matter what?
Becourse i read it as you said that sometimes its better to help thouse kind of people,instead of letting them ruin their life and the objects...

I dont think 100jumps will make you a person that can teach,heck you could have 1200jumps and still not know what i think is relavant to be abel to Mentor,it all depends on what your genneral knowlegede are to all aspects of the world of BASE

I do agree whith you in this matter(about a 100jump guy shouldnt teach),i just wondered as i understanded somthing else from what you wrote earlyer...

Personaly i dont think ill ever be a mentor,i simply wont be that good.However i would guide new jumpers if they ask me,aslong they can do the basic in BASE..

I was hurt due to a funky openning that got away from me and had nothing to do with "not knowing how to jump slider up". Not like I have to explain myself to anyone. I was on my own not hurting anyone else. Everyone knows the hazards involved when they step off the edge. Not like this is my first near death experience. I got three years of that shit behind me from the sand box. Have your little piece of the world there in NC, nobody cares. Thanks for the Heal fast though. later on 861

Edited to add not take away.

Nope. That's what I meant. If someone is going to go jump no matter what you do, I think it's better to help them out.

I didn't think that was what John was expressing, but apparently I misinterpreted what he had said, and this was the case.

First off, I must say when I hear someone say, “they didn’t know any better, but they do now” and they started BASE jumping within the last fifteen years, it sounds hollow to me. BASE ethics, as an issue, is older than that. The first BASE ethics articles, i.e., how to protect sites, how, and who, should teach, started appearing in the mid-to-late 1980s.

However, there's a bigger issue lurking here . . .

With a perspective that comes from simply being born sooner (not saying a better perspective, just a different one) I see these wars have been raging since almost the beginning of the sport. I say, almost the beginning, because the only “pure” era of BASE is the beginning years when no one knew anything and the playing field was level. This is a time when if you discovered some great truth about BASE jumping, you only had to make three phone calls, and by the next day, the whole BASE community would know it too.

Then it started to change, and, it began to get ugly. I remember (numerous times) X severely berating some hapless newbie for turning others on to BASE in a time when X had just fifty BASE jumps (and more than anyone else at the time) while the newbie had just ten. X is the first person I ever hear refer to an object as, “locals only.”

I knew, right then, we had a problem that would never go away unless we threw the baby out with bath water. Now when protecting legal sites is an issue (a thing we never needed to worry about back then) it’s going to get worse. The baby, in the above, is the freedom.

The balancing act nowadays is letting the newbie experience that freedom, that feeling that fired our imaginations, that thing at the very core of the sport itself, without putting in place all the rules and regulations that drove us out of skydiving and away from the drop zone in the first place. And come on, the transition from yahoo skydiver to cool BASE jumper is as old as the sport itself. We all went through that transition (except for Ritchie, who did it the other way) and we all made some of the mistakes we’re getting on this guy in the thread for.

You can all make up your minds on an individual basis, because that’s part of it too. But, be really really careful. If your major concern is protecting your local site (legal, or not) I’m not entirely sure you have it right. Look at it this way. All one needs to BASE jump is the desire, a rig, and an object. Those three things will always be available. No, local, state, or federal agency can ever shut down BASE jumping. No one person could do it either. If you say it’s for the good of the sport, it doesn’t wash. You are really saying it’s about your convenience. No one can own, rent or parcel out BASE jumping. And that, right there, is the beauty of it, it’s the freedom. We are starting to monkey with that to the point, that well, you know . . .

Nick
BASE 194

Hang on a second...the operative term here being "hang". I was wondering of you could be my mentor, Jason, and show me how to get snagged on a tower while trying to BASE it? I'm just saying. If you're going to be an asshat and try and tell people about their screw-ups, at least have the satchel to mention your own.

Edited to add: Unless you AREN'T the Jason that was featured in Skydiving magazine recently.

Right ON brother!!!!! Your reply should be part of the HOLY GRAIL of BASE. If your ever in NC get in touch with me and we will go HUCK a 2000 footer with an elevator.

You'd think all of you were from California with all the bitching going on.

I'll try to keep this short. Jason is super heads up jumper on a level I don't think I've seen with anyone. He refused to teach anyone when he had over 200 BASE jumps, but did offer a lot of guidance if you were willing to be patient. A friend and I got somewhat mentored by him and the crew he frequents with largely because we were jumping on our own anyway. Seeing that refusal to take me early on makes me reluctant to take anyone at my 160 jump experience level and probably for a long while (not to mention I suck ).

My personal consideration if I were to take someone would be how driven they are. This comes from the 2 years I spent debating if it was for me. If they aren't really ready to spend a gob of time and money on learning the necessary skills (packing, skydives with BASE canopies, pool exits, balloon jumps) then what would make me think they'd be ready to pay with their life? BASE jumping isn't a novelty jump the likes of what's to be had at Rantoul, most of the time it requires precise planning and execution with lots of backup plans if things go gnarly and they frequently do--quickly. I've seen a lot of people get into it with no concept of this, because skydiving so frequently goes well. This leads people into BASE way too early, and is probably the primary factor for 20 jump wonders taking even less experienced people. Most of the time they come out ok, but more often than not its pure luck getting them through it--I sure had a lot starting out. Still knowing everything in theory means you have to have the practical aspects as well, so things can still go wrong even if you do everything just right.

On the flip side everyone makes mistakes and sometimes people pay for it dearly. Its the way of skydiving and BASE jumping. You won't truely know this fact until you see someone bounce, or have to help a friend in the car because he's paralyzed.

I've done enough jumps with both groups to know they both have solid jumpers that care a lot about the sport. You guys should probably think about learning from one another and go jumping together Especially since I've seen the benefits to both groups first hand, and there's a lot to learn there.

I forgot to add all you bit*$*$*$es better be ready to jump when I get back!!!

Dear Mr. McDuck,
I think I have already told everyone about my screw-up if you would have looked here http://www.dropzone.com/...%20prophets;#1029422 you would have seen that, but I guess you failed to search around. Just like you failed to do your homework when looking for a mentor. You stated in your other post that "as a brand-spanking new neophyte to BASE, I personally would only seek out the best and most experienced BASE jumpers to get me started, the ones who not only have been doing it for quite a while, but also come highly recommended by their peers."
This statement shows just how ill-prepared you are for BASE. I think that you must have just been looking only at your DZ and not anywhere else since there are at least 4 other jumpers in the Carolinas that have at least DOUBLE the experience that your mentor does. Also who were the 'peers' you talked to? People who he took on a jump from his DZ? Don't you think that those opinions might be slightly biased? Open those funny little eyes of yours Mr. McDuck and you would see that there is a whole lot more than just your little DZ out there to get opinions from.
I'm not saying John is a bad person because I know he is not. His heart is in the right place, I just think he is a little too eager (just like his newest student) to teach everyone, no matter what their skill level, who has even the slightest interest in BASE. He's a DZO for crying out loud, he has to keep his clientele happy, right?? Otherwise they would bail and jump at another DZ, which means loss of revenue.
As far as the pictures in skydiving goes... do you really think that I have control over the person that took the photos? The shots were news to me when the mag came out. Someone else had to show me.

Thanks for the little pun at the beginning of your post, you should take that act on the road. It sure was funny! Oh, and if you're going to be an 'asshat' please do your research first and know what your talking about.

570

Damn, am I the only person that thinks that these local conflicts are best settled outside of a worldwide forum?

Meet up somewhere at a bar, drink a beer together, and talk it out.... If that doesn't work, then tell the world how little you like each other...

Hang on a second...the operative term here being "hang". I was wondering of you could be my mentor, Jason, and show me how to get snagged on a tower while trying to BASE it? I'm just saying. If you're going to be an asshat and try and tell people about their screw-ups, at least have the satchel to mention your own.
................................................................................................

Dude you do know that if you BASE jump, you will
Bang into something at least once or twice to say....
the....LEAST. No matter what your experience level.

I have the, Satchel to say.
" You dont know what the F##k you are Talking About"
ASSHAT !

scwheet...
add: can't we all just get along?

Okay, I was going to leave this be, mainly due to the fact that with the exception of a few reasonable responses to the original point early on, and NickDG's informed and well thought out answer, this has degraded into an ego contest. I could speculate on how it seems that BASE jumpers in this online community seem to be evenly divided between the uber-egos and those who enjoy learning from and teaching others, but that has become abundantly clear from the first response that derided John for someone's perceptions of his past and current skills. That was way off base (no pun intended) and totally beside the point.

What ever YOU think of John, he has been the right kind of mentor in skydiving and BASE for me, always giving me the choice while giving me all the good reasons to wait, learn and take my time before getting into anything new. I'm sure the team for the defense will protest that this touting of my "sky buddy's" character is not relevant, but I beg to differ.

John has consistently told me to wait a while longer before BASE jumping. Never once has that deterred me from going to his DZ to skydive, and never once has it occurred to me to BASE with people when he was telling me it wasn't a good idea. I'm not sure what type of person would abandon a DZ simply because the DZO won't give them the OK to BASE, but I know I'm not that type of person.

It's sad, but Nick's post carries far more truth than I think he intended. Or maybe I'm reading more into it after seeing the more vehement responses to John's original question and my knee-jerk reaction. If the attitude and demeanor of some of the responses is par for the course in certain parts of the BASE community, then I am certain I am in the right place when it comes to learning and growing in both skydiving and BASE, IF I decide to continue on in it. People who tell me "no" and explain why without exuding a holier-than-thou attitude have not only my respect, but my full attention. People who just want to be known as the end-all be-all of any sport just have the back of my shirt. I think there was more to some of the reponses to John's post than a humble desire to help and guide...and it showed.

Being a good mentor seems to me to be less about how many thousands of BASE jumps you have, and more about how willing you are to BE a mentor with that many jumps to begin with. But, you know, I'm a one-BASE-jump wonder.

Edited for spelling.

Well Spoken young jedi!!!! You have seen the ways of BASE. LIVE LONG and PROSPER!


I have enclosed a photo of my 2 cents, since everyone is so concerned about ME!!!!!

 

"Just like you failed to do your homework when looking for a mentor. You stated in your other post that "as a brand-spanking new neophyte to BASE, I personally would only seek out the best and most experienced BASE jumpers to get me started, the ones who not only have been doing it for quite a while, but also come highly recommended by their peers."
This statement shows just how ill-prepared you are for BASE. I think that you must have just been looking only at your DZ and not anywhere else since there are at least 4 other jumpers in the Carolinas that have at least DOUBLE the experience that your mentor does. Also who were the 'peers' you talked to? People who he took on a jump from his DZ? Don't you think that those opinions might be slightly biased? Open those funny little eyes of yours Mr. McDuck and you would see that there is a whole lot more than just your little DZ out there to get opinions from."

<<<Jason,
This coment truely shows who is trying to get their ego stroked!! Think about it if a person chooses to go BASE jumping they will go with people that they know. Why would someone travel to another place looking for someone with more jumps or experiance when they dont even know you. Why would they trust you with their lives? The same in skydiving, does someone choose a DZ based on the experiance of the people or is it the VIBE? Maybe if you gave off a better vibe instead of always lurking in the shadows waiting to pounce on someone for posting on here maybe people would search you out. This has strayed way far from the original post. We were concerned about a newbie taking an AFF student BASE jumping remember! Then it wasnt long before you pounced on me! If you are looking for your ego to get stoked here you go, "yes you have more jumps than I do" Yes you have been jumping longer than me". But some people were just not born to teach what ever the experiance. I dont take people Base jumping because I am worried about loosing revenue at the DZ. I go with people that are gonna go whether Im there or not. I have never tought someone how to BASE but rather tell thim what I have learned through my experiances, Sharing the knowlege from jumpers past is how people learn not to make the same mistakes as the older jumpers. By doing this makes BASE safer and safer so that people dont continue to make the same mistakes.
I have never jumped with you, but I have jumped with several people that jump with you often, For some reason you dont like me, and I truely dont care.

Yeah, you have actually made the DZ lose revenue quite a few times when everyone has left to go huck something.

Now I'm gonna have to get a new keyboard 'cause it's got coca cola all in it!!! I actually did laugh out loud enough that an office mate stepped in to see what was so funny. Good one John.

Y'know I used to get all hot and bothered by all of this... in fact enough so one time that I and a group of us actually went way out of our way to go and do something about it.

I guess my position has changed and I find myself in a constant struggle to reconcile my thought with my prior actions, my BASE history, and my convictions. In other words I don't know if I really have any room to talk. And while I agree that dayblazing objects isn't the best idea for any of us, I'd be lying if I said I'd never done it (and even recently).

Likewise, if it weren't for my yahoo-base-newbie-instructor-wannabe mentor Earl (who is/was guilty of exactly the same thing of which you stand accused), I probably wouldn't even be here talking about this. Still further, I might not have been here talking about this if things hadn't gone my way with respect to luck. Long story short: I'm like Ritchie; I did it the other way 'round.

There are so many times when I bite my tongue - not because I don't have anything to say - but because I'm one of those exceptions that wouldn't exist in the BASE world if it weren't for the misguided (guided??) efforts of Mr. Redfern to go against the grain. In other words... in some respects I don't have any grounds to make a case around things like how many skydives one should have before taking up BASE.... or whether someone is 'bad' for having jumped in the daytime... or whether jumping with a surfboard is a good idea or not (I've never jumped with a surfboard, btw - no interest in taking sharp and potentially snagging objects with me in freefall or subjecting groundbound folks to them). There really aren't many rules in BASE - the most heavily enforced rules are the physical laws. Then there is the Call the Locals Rule. Don't jump from the rail at the Perrine. Other than that, it's pretty much a free-for-all as Nick suggested... and there's really not a damned thing any of us can do about it. It's as perennial as the grass that there will always be unprepared newbies wanting to take up the sport. It's as perennial as the grass that the newbie jumper will want to jump everything in sight and jump often and in broad daylight and many times against a more experienced someone's wishes. It's also as perennial as the grass that these folks will mature(hopefully), in time, to become the same jumper that many of us older timers now are: they will see the path and the way and they'll take it, and they'll be amazed (shocked)at themselves when they come to the realization that they were just like that young punk that just hucked a 2k footer in broad daylight for god and everybody to see. Growing pains.

I take solace in the fact that no matter what happens (base being outlawed, objects shut down), the only person standing in the way of me tossing on my rig and climbing up and jumping off of something is myself. That's the ultimate freedom.

Beyond that, I guess someone else here summed it up pretty well: choose carefully the folks that you take with you or that you jump with... it'll be those folks that you have to live/co-exist with if you don't like jumping completely alone (which is cool for those that do). That is not to say that the choices you made are wrong... they just might not have turned out the way you wanted (unintended consequences). Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your position), any single one of us has little control over which yahoo decides to jump xxxxx in broad daylight or goes in on our favorite local object.

Let's all relax. The objects aren't going anywhere, and neither is gravity.

bsbd,
Gardner

 

Personaly i think we have too many yahoo-mentors,and if you were so once i can see why people has/will blame you,however thouse people might also need to open their eyes and look forward instead of only behind.

I think most here will agree that prober instruction from mentors whith loads of experience all around will lead to less injuryes and burned objects...

Guys this is just like an soap-oprah,i couldnt miss the chance to be in it

by the way,is it a bugger on that finger

Man this is just the funniest god damn thing now! I started by defending my best friend with my own experience and it has become a one man bash John Fest by 570. Well now you have it. People with a couple BASE jumps aren't the ideal instructor and still John is a good guy. Go fig.

Nobody has any use for an ego-stoking, self-righteous BASE/Sky god. If anyone that has pertinent input to this original post it would be great to hear it. I have put in my "two cents" but here is a little bit to tell you that I have a little more experience than a "whuffo" or "newbie"

BTW- All of the very experienced BASE input from the masters of BASE is what we seek in this sport and way of life. I will see you at bridge day and hopefully will get to talk to you. Nick, Jason, Tom, John, beer's on me.
Tom I am the guy who sent Joy and Rick the Ghetto like editting film for our numbers.
Thank you all, good night.
BASE 860/861

I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as a one man bash John Fest. For sure the first paragraph of 570's first post on this thread was a major dig at John, but if (and that is a big IF, as I don't know either of these guys personally) the events described in that paragraph are accurate, 570's point that it is ironic that John would now be posting this kind of message about another newbie is accurate--that is, it is pretty ironic.

That being said, it doesn't seem to make much sense to make that point in a thread about the original subject matter on a public forum for a couple of reasons. First, even if the history described in the first paragraph of 570's first post is accurate, it is also HISTORY. The mere fact that John would be here posting his original message indicates that, regardless of how he got his own start, he now understands that inexperienced new guy running around doing the things he has been doing on his own is fairly reckless and not the preferred path to get into BASE. And as long as John gets that now, what good does it do to dredge up the past in a public forum?

Second, it is entirely possible that this newbie will read this thread himself. And if he does and he sees 570's post, he may well completely disregard the last paragraph, which did appear to contain some constructive advice (albeit surrounded by a couple more digs), as well as the other helpful posts that preceded it, and instead take from this thread only the idea that if, notwithstanding all of John's cautionary admonitions, that's the way John actually did it and everything turned out okay for him, it should be fine for this guy to carry on as he has been. Thus, ironically enough, 570's message could actually make matters worse by merely solidfying this guy's resolve to ignore the counsel of more experienced jumpers and continue running amok.

Wery nicely put.....

Look at it this way. All one needs to BASE jump is the desire, a rig, and an object. Those three things will always be available. No, local, state, or federal agency can ever shut down BASE jumping. No one person could do it either. If you say it’s for the good of the sport, it doesn’t wash. You are really saying it’s about your convenience. No one can own, rent or parcel out BASE jumping. And that, right there, is the beauty of it, it’s the freedom. We are starting to monkey with that to the point, that well, you know . . .

Nick
......................................

I take solace in the fact that no matter what happens (base being outlawed, objects shut down), the only person standing in the way of me tossing on my rig and climbing up and jumping off of something is myself. That's the ultimate freedom.
bsbd
Gardner
......................................................

* One thing for shure is, even when there is a pile of Shit to wade threw.
Shit being, 90% of all posts.
You can still find a couple of good things that are not covered up by
The Smell.

I would like to also Apologize for using the words....
Satchel : for, Nut-Sack
and
Asshat : for, Ass Hole

Satchel and AssHat do not fit my Personality

If people are telling you that you're certainly going to get hurt, its probably for a reason! Whilst its certainly a slap to your ego, perhaps they're seeing what you can't- that your enthusiasm/ego/ideas are not matched by your ability, prehaps you're going too hard.

Everyone has some story about how they or someone they know, pushed it too hard and got "reminded", got hurt or ended up on "Nick's list"...and there are worse things than being dead...

ps the prob isn't confined to the US or europe, we got it too.

Ok have you even met Jason? He in my opinion is a very humble jumper. If you thing he's an ass just because he won't take you to every object out there then you don't understand the work that he Eman, 515, 516, and countless others have invested in the BASE in the Carolinas. I was there for Johns 1st jump off the oblect over near 700's house and afterward he seemes to go off on his on trying to get BASE in a weekend on some technical objects. And I thinl that's were570's concerns come from.
John seemed like a great guy from the small time I spent with him and I've heard good things about his dz and some iffy thing about some of his BASE prodigies.
Anyways I'm totally hammered right now so my point is.... 570 isn't bashing john just to be bashing john, and he's not bashing john. 570 has done more for base in the carolinas than most of you young'ns will. And if he or some of the older jumpers don't take you out to an object it;s to take care of the object and not your or their ego.

Now go out and fucking jump you fucking pansies.

PS not respnoslible for this post I'm toooooo drunkkk!!!!
Gabe

>>>If you thing he's an ass just because he won't take you to every object out there then you don't understand

--Don't think he's an ass.
------------------------------------------------------------
>>>John seemed like a great guy

--No Shit
------------------------------------------------------------
>>>I'm totally hammered right now

--Great! That's how I see the world totally sober
------------------------------------------------------------
>>>570 has done more for base in the carolinas than most of you young'ns will. And if he or some of the older jumpers don't take you out to an object it's to take care of the object

--As I said before. He can have that piece of the world, I don't care and don't need anyone to take me anywhere. I just BASE to muffle the voices. Its a very small portion of my mental recovery program. Plus I stopped being a youg'un a while back.
------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Now go out and fucking jump you fucking pansies

--Ok, stop yelling! Christ!!
------------------------------------------------------------
Edit to add not take away

Reference you and all the other window lickers in this thread, JUST GO AHEAD AND KISS JOHN! JESUS CHRIST YOU FAT BASTARD, SHUT UP AND HAVE A KID FOR "GOD'S" SAKE!

And to all of you who don't think 570 was making a personal attack on John, I hope we meet sometime when I am in a really bad mood so I can just rant and berate you and then we can just be great friends and share each others wives or something fun like that! Get a grip!

After asking John and several other base jumpers, (that I consider to have quite a vast experience base) about this thread, I can't believe how badly the dicussion hasdegraded.

In the future, it might do us all in the sport to simply stick with the issue and maybe help somebody out and quite possibly keep them alive!

Hey Matt, how the hell did you get two BASE #'s? Maybe it was a typo or something! (Or was she standing over your shoulder!!!!)

Much Love, Arlo

John hayes Gave my pet sheep the clap, I'll never share anything with him ever again!

um.. speaking of the clapp, I am not gay but you can't help BUTT notice, that your ass is showing...

i think both John and i really dont want to kiss each other,however i would think it would be fun to huck an object whith him once

All the pics i saw of Jesus he looked really slim,your sure it were Jesus you saw?

I have 2 kids and if i shut up they become terroists..

im an atheist i dont belive in god...

Now could we go drink some beers or jump some objects,becourse all this bashing aint good for anyone..

Hey Faber I think he was refering to me with the fat comments. he is kind of mean when it comes to that.
John isn't much for kissing I guess since he took a swing at me the last time I tried but TRGV2000 is game.
I am an Athiest too so maybe we could go huck something in the name of John or something.

Now I am going to have me a Becourse Light. Later

edited to add: Both my wife and I have numbers. She got hers before me go fig. Now however, she is limitted to stuff that won't shake that belly up.

BASE 515, I was the one who gave your sheep the clap. John just took the blame. Thats what I get from spending all that time in the desert around all those hot assed goats.
BTW- your whore ass sheep gave me herpies. So she isnt as pure as you think.
NICE ASS though!!

so your Jesuswow he he

aslong we dont huck John,then its cool by me

congrats whith the belly thing,i have 2 blond tyrans(well skydivers usaly say so go figure)They really love the world of BASE(they only saw on the tv and the pc),usaly i call them the minidudes(3 and nearly 5 years old),both of them learned to say yahoooo yeeehaaaa 3 2 1 c ya and BASEjump before they could walk(dads cool girls..)

Perhaps ill sell them for a rig as they get teenagers

 

aslong we dont huck John,then its cool by me

Hi John,
I'm not the one who needs my ego stroked John because I'm not the one who is trying to teach everyone who comes to me and says "wow BASE is cool, I'm going to jump are you going to show me or what??" I have turned down dozens of people because I felt that they didn't really want to learn BASE they just wanted an amusement park ride. I have even turned down close friends because they couldn't or wouldn't take the proper steps to learn the skills that are needed in BASE. I try to steer the people that ask about it in the right direction by telling them to take their time getting really comfortable with flying and packing a big 7 cell canopy, to learn tracking skills, to take a class with the manufacturers, to put forth the effort to learn as if their life depended on because IT DOES! Most people that want my help get the same curriculum and I can say that almost all have said "oh, it's to much work" or "it's too time consuming" or it will "cost too much money" In my opinion, these people don't need to be BASE jumping because they have little regard for their own wellbeing and safety and can't bring themselves to do more than a half assed job. Most of these people have forgotten about BASE because it wasn't easily attainable. Sure some still have that desire but at least they have all the facts and have some sort of idea of what it takes to to be as safe as possible in the sport and what it would take for me to help them. I strongly feel that if you would have the same discretion when choosing students that you would not be in the situation your in now with your new student. The new student would see how meticulous you are in choosing, preparing and planning for every jump and they in turn would do the same and they would know that they don't have the knowledge yet to teach anyone. I think you have set the bad example by taking everyone who asks and, as you have seen, your students have and will do the same as their teacher.
Also, your statement "Why would someone travel to another place looking for someone with more jumps or experience when they dont even know you [them]?" fails to make sense. So are saying that people wanting to learn shouldn't go to manufactures courses because they don't know them?? This is ridiculous! What I said was that he failed to get other OPINIONS on the safe path to BASE jumping and choosing a mentor. I wouldn't have taught him to jump anyway, I don't need that kind of reassuring, I would have given him some skills to practice and some phone numbers to call to get set up with a course.
I guess we are just different in this aspect. You believe that it's a big amusement park ride and I KNOW it is not.
Once again good luck in talking with your student, I truly hope that you are able to get the point across and get this issue resolved.

570
ps-Thanks for posting the first picture it pretty well sums up your attitude now, just as it has been all along.
pps- A good "vibe" won't do crap for you when the shit hits the fan, but good skills can.

Maybe it's just me, John, but I distinctly remember you advising me several times to wait for quite some time before I started BASE jumping. In fact, I seem to remember hearing you turn down many people who simply weren't ready or had extremely low skydive numbers, etc. And I believe that we had discussed this over the phone as well: it's one thing to take experienced jumpers with reasonable jump numbers for a BASE when they plan on going without you anyway, but quite another to take an AFF student up for a BASE when you are just starting out in BASE yourself. Seeing as how THAT was the original point that was being made, along with how to approach that situation conversationally with the jumper, and not this verbal vendetta that some here are turning this into, I'm glad that actual answers from reasonable people have surfaced. I'm also glad that this issue has seems to have been resolved at the personal level. It makes all of the blatherings of some here seem that much more ludicrous, as the original point is lost in seemingly angst-ridden tirades against you.

570,

Please! Please! Please! will you teach me the oh so metiphysical and all encompassing artform of BASE? I truly wish to be a Jedi Knight! How much and where do I send payment for the B.I.M. (BASE Imformation Manual)?

Do you really take yourself seriously?(Not just BASE)

Good luck with the really tough things in life and please quit flexing for hours in front of the mirror!

Not so much love, Arlo!

I am officially tired of this thread.