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**ATTENTION ALL NON-BASE JUMPERS AND NEWBIES: DO NOT READ. THIS IS VERY INACCURATE INFORMATION OFFERED BY THE TANNING GUY. IF YOU MUST READ, DO NOT BELIEVE A WORD OF IT. ASK THE EXPERTS.**

His name is Jim Wagenman, owner of the tanning salon. I decided to call "Native Skin" and act like a complete moron who was planning on making my first skydive, but now I'm going BASE jumping. After two lengthy calls, below is the information I gained.


He was a rigger for 25 years in the military. He has 50 BASE jumps, and 200-250 military static line jumps (he never mentioned sport skydives). He has been giving "amusement park jumps" since 1982, putting off 400 "students." He seems to know a lot about static line jumps, but not very much about BASE.

Below is from our most recent conversation.

-Me: "So is BASE jumping safer than skydiving?"
-Him: "BASE jumping is MUCH safter than skydiving, or even riding in a car, flying in a plane, or riding a motorcycle. BASE jumping is COMPLETELY safe, it is not dangerous at all, since your parachute will open automatically.

-"And my friends and I figure it's also safer because it's closer to the ground?"
-"That is correct."

-"What kind of gear will we be using?"
-"40' Air Force rounds, it's a safe parachute. And a parachute WILL NOT malfunction. I've tried my best to pack a malfunction, I've even cut holes all in the parachute." (I should note that this was in the military, and he was throwing dummies out of the plane...not from the bridge)

-"My friend did a FLIP accidentally when we went bungee jumping and got burned by the bungee cord. What happens if I flip into the lines?"
-"Well, a static line will burn you too. But you won't flip into the lines. Even if you tried to, you couldn't. You'll just jump, feet first. Or you can go head first if you want."

Sorry to bring up bad memories, but this concerns the fatality that involved a bridle that was too short (I don't know the details). This is his account: "The sheriff called me when a guy got killed out here, because I'm a specialist. The guy pulled his pilot chute, it got trapped in his 'vortex', and his canopy 'popped out' at 100', but that was too low. His problem was that he was using a 9-foot 'shroud line,' which is what you use for skydiving. But for BASE jumping, you need a 15-foot 'shroud line.'" More lack of knowledge.

-"Well I'm glad to hear that!! What if I want to keep doing this? Will it cost $110 every jump?"
-"If you want to keep doing this, you MAY want to skydive first, to understand body position. But my rigs are only set up for static line. You'll need to get a SKYDIVING rig. Before you start pulling the pilot chute yourself, you should start with a few practice pulls, a handkerchief or something, on static line jumps."

-"Wow, cool!! I know 'a guy at my school' that skydives. So if I borrow his skydiving rig, I can come out there and pull the pilot chute myself?"
-"Well, sure, but I'd get with other 'skydivers' for instruction."

-"Are there any in Twin Falls?"
-"No, all of them travel here to jump."

END CALL. I guess he doesn't know about the competition (JT).

The first call I made, he gave me some brief info. $110, minimum of 10 people, but he'll put my group of four with another group that's jumping Labor Day weekend (on Saturday, Sep. 4). There's one person scheduled for that weekend. We'll go through a 30 minute "class," jump, land in the water (we'll be wearing life jackets), and a boat will pick us up. He said to mail him our checks, but he won't cash them until AFTER the jump. But if we chicken out, we don't get our money back.

Well folks, I'm a newbie myself (13 jumps), but I don't trust ANYTHING that he has said, nor do I believe all of it. It's scary to think that he gives this information to non-jumpers that are looking for an amusement park ride. Anybody know this guy? Any doubt left that this is a bad idea?

I think you're spending entierly too much time trying to save people from themselves.

From what I've gathered this guy has actualy put people off safely. What good can come from raining on they guy's parade? Or are you now forming a USPA like organization to regulate BASE jumping at TF?

Please excuse me while I go find my jaw...

It dropped off my face and rolled somewhere underneath my bed.

From My computer illiterate non posting cuz that stuff makes no sense friend...
...............

"I would certainly not want to rain on the parade of such a qualified provider of jumping services....hmmm, think I'll get one of those 15 ft shroud lines!"

You know, I'll bet people looked on tandem jumping the same way at one time.

Does anyone have a problem with it (literacy aside) if the guy is putting people of in a manner that is reasonably safe? If he is, is there any reason he should be restricted from using a public resource in the same manner as is afforded to other citizens. As far as I can see the guy is so far guilty of having bad grammar and USING poor terminology, but what else is wrong?

I wouldn't get into the business simply because of the liability standpoint, but that's just me.

Hmmm. How many? Where did you hear this?

The reports I've heard have him telling various people that he's put somewhere between 50 and 400 people off (depending on which time you talked to him).

Depends on how you define "reasonably safe". He's apparently using some kind of old military surplus container. I'm not sure I'd class that as "reasonably safe."

Still, you have some good points. The more people here who feel like they have something to gain from jumping, the more people will speak up to protect it. On the other hand, if a 17 year old girl who sees the sign at the tanning salon goes in with a total....

I think the difference is that the guys who were doing tandems were at forefront of the sport, had a passion for it, and tested their gear. This guy sounds like a yahoo trying to make a quick buck with ancient gear that has questionable functionality from a dead air exit. IMO, it's an abuse of the right to jump at this bridge.

Though it would be really damn entertaining to watch him put people off.

So, he's not quite sure? He may or may not have done one fifth of the latter number? 250 jumps isn't that hard to keep track of. Maybe when they happen over 25 years, you forget if that last one one in December of 2001, or May of 1999.

Yeah it would be bad. But it's not like others haven't gone in off TF. For dumber reasons than just wanting a thrill.


How bout some of the BASE pioneers? I hear there were a couple nuts who actually BASEed Units and lived. You know, the "open on demand" canopy?

I certainly wouldn't classify those jumps as "reasonably safe". It's one of the reasons I'm so thankful that there were pioneers--otherwise we'd be learning from scratch.

>>Though it would be really damn entertaining to watch him put people off.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" <<

Everything is the same again . . .

This could be the BASE version of how skydiving used to be.

We'd all jump hard at the DZ all day and then, over beers, watch the DC-3 make a last low pass over the DZ disgorging the day’s static line students.

Student follies, we used to call it . . .

Nick
BASE 194

It gets worse. On the FIRST call, he said 250-300. On the second call, he said 200-250. And he CLAIMS that none of his "students" have ever been hurt or killed.

And I haven't pissed on this guy's parade...YET. When I call him Sep. 3 and say "Uh, sorry, we chickened out," THEN I will be pissing on his parade. He'll be down $550, with one lonely wannabe he has to turn away.

JP, how much do you know about BASE? If I had to compare it to a tandem, imagine the instructor telling you "OK, you'll be on top, I'll be on bottom, and you'll open the parachute at 1000 feet. When we come in for landing, I want you to fully extend your legs. And don't try to pull down on these little yellow things." That's the knowledge that I see our get-rich-quick tanning guy has.

Nice. Fuck with some guys business just because you don't agree with it.

Hope the burger joint down the way doesn't piss you off too.


A bit. Maybe more than a bit.


No it's your assesment of the knowlage he has. Maybe he wrote himself a script to impress wuffos. Maybe he's got no experience at all. Have you seen his operation?

I'm just trying to figure out why the witch hunt on this guy? How about you go after the guy who sells a testostorone hyped 18 year old a Yamaha R1 next? He's done just about as much wrong and from past history has got a way better chance of getting someone killed.

What has this guy done that is so wrong?

Nuthin' yet. But if he continues on this path he may just get the IBP shut down.

An ounce of prevention, a pound of cure...? Maybe we should investigate the wisdom of that old adage.

The burger joint is one analogy. How about a guy stood on the school corner selling crack to kids? You wouldn't fuck with his business?

Do you consider his enterprise ethical?

Or are you stoned?

I am.

I have to agree with JP here on this. What has this guy done that is so wrong?

Just out of curiousity, how high is this bridge and what is the water like (fast current,obstacles in the water)?

I have no reason to defend what this guy is doing, nor do I really think it's the brightest thing to do to earn a few bucks with the liability involved. However, if the guy is static lining people off of a bridge with sufficient altitude, using a tried and true system that is servicable(be it old or not, we still use rounds in the military and the AF round you spoke of is a solid system) and he has a recovery boat in the water and the people have life vests on it sounds a lot safer than most things I've seen done in the dark of night. The guy was(claims) to be a former Military rigger, if true, then I am confident he knows what he is doing as far as packing that system and rigging it correctly. As for his jumps, that can be speculated all day. In the Military it is mandatory to keep a jump log for all jumps since most people jumping are getting paid to do it. However, it is not unheard of for the jump log custodian to not log a jump if the jumper is still current and isn't jumping back or ahead. It is always best for the individual to keep track of his own shit but it's hard to do that sometimes. Besides, ask any old paratrooper how many jumps they have and you'll get some varing numbers. As for safety, being a military static/HALO jumpmaster ,I understand the possibilities but a static line system done correctly from a fixed object removes some of the hazards associated with jumping from an A/C. If I can jump a round from 500' with a full combat load at night with people shooting at me and land OK I think these people have a pretty good chance of landing OK. Again, don't get me wrong, I think this is stupid to do just for a few bucks and is full of risks(liability) on the guys part.


What this sounds like to me is a few people are upset that their "extreme" or outlaw form of jumping is being mainstreamed by an average joe who isn't a hardcore. I remember the same thng happening when yuppies started riding Harleys.

So again, what is it that this guy is doing that is so wrong ( I am assuming that it is legal to jump this bridge and he isn't burning it)?

I have quite a few skydives, I also have a friend with a plane.

What would you say to me, if i started offering people to skydive?

I mean I have some knowledge and also the equipment to do so, but if I had advertised this on the Skydive forums what do you think the response would be from skydivers?

So why such a surprise when something like this causes BASE jumpers to react to it?

This guy didn't piss me off, and I wouldn't go so far as to call this "a business." He owns a tanning salon. He said he's been doing this for free, but since he spends an entire day repacking, he figured he'd start charging for it. He calls it "a part-time job."

My concern is what's at stake...the bridge. If it got shut down, it'd be similar to shutting down half of the drop zones in the U.S.

Even if you don't know much about BASE, as a skydiver, I'm sure you see at least SOME lack of knowledge. He's telling wannabes that "BASE is completely safe, a parachute won't malfunction, all you need to freefall the bridge is a SKYDIVING rig."

I wouldn't be against his idea AS MUCH, if he were doing it at a site other than the bridge. I personally don't think it's a good idea, period. But risking the bridge is a VERY BAD IDEA.

Nothing, people have been opening DZs for a long time and will continue to do so just like people will hurl themselves off of low objects both legally and illegally in the dark of night. So again, what is this guy doing that is so wrong?

Damn, and my base rig has a 9' bridle! I'm glad I read this before going back out to jump... You think if I cal BR they'll send me a new 15' model, or could I just tie two 9's together and be even safer than a 15 footer?

my point is that I may skydive (or used too sorry) but I certainly dont have the experience to go and hurl some students out............

I also BASE jump, but again I dont have the experience (or the wish) to go hurl anyone off an object.......... (and i have been asked)

The point i was making is that if i with 500 skydives decided to hurl some people out of a plane for a quick cheap way to skydive - how would you react? you would probably say "I was not qualified to do such a thing - whereas I could actually argue that I have to means and enough knowledge to actually do it..................

Nope, sorry. But maybe if you contacted the military, they might could get you a 15-foot "shroud line." And just to think...thousands of jumps have been made with a 9-foot "shroud line." We can't keep jumping with these shroud lines!! We need to contact all BASE jumpers that use the 15-foot shroud lines. Oh wait, nevermind, there aren't any.

OK, then how about this one - how would you feel about an inexperienced wingsuit pilot teaching an inexperienced skydiver to fly a wingsuit? Bad idea?

hehe! just said the same thing myself!

how ya doing will! hope all is cool and you enjoyed the "walk in the park"

I'm really shocked by what the tanning guy is doing and the uneducated responses to this thread. All the technological advancements in gear and training over the last 25 years are thrown out when you have yahoo's like the tanning guy tossing people off a bridge under inadequate military rounds. I actually own a few military rounds and you'd have to pay me a lot to jump one off a bridge.

This guy is a liability, just like our wonderful surfboard and waterski jumpers.

My question to several of you is this. If you don't BASE jump, or if you haven't ever been to the Perrine, how can you adequately post a response to this thread? You don't see me posting over at the CRW forum......simply because I don't know crap about CRW.

I dunno, I personally know two BASE jumpers who bought their gear over the net and soloed their first jumps (both now have over 100 BASE jumps). PM me if you'd like to know just how easy it was.


When you BASE jump with people they see how you behave when you are sleep deprived, physically exhausted and scared of possible injury and/or arrest (often all at the same time). It is not 'cliquiness' - it is just an understanding that comes from seeing people at their best/worst.

Will

Regarding the comparison to tandems:

There are tons of privately DZ's all over the country. The whuffos making tandem jumps are informed fully of the risk. If a whuffo went in at a DZ, even if his family went nuts with lawsuits, etc, not much would happen to the privately owned DZ, let alone skydiving as a whole, since there are so many DZ's.

There is a jumpable bridge, publicly owned (OK, I'm assuming here, correct me if I'm wrong), that is a singularity of sorts. The whuffos making BASE jumps off of it are NOT well informed of the risk. If a whuffo went in @ the bridge, it IS possible that the family would go nuts with lawsuits, and they would not only be directed at the tanning salon guy, but also at the state, since the bridge is public (see assumption clause above ). It IS likely this could have a negative effect not only on the jumpability of the bridge, but also on legal bridge jumping in USA as a whole (since there are not a lot of places like this).

Just my uninformed plane-jumper opinion...

When I called the company that made my base rig and placed the order, all I told them is that I was going to Bridge Day and wanted buy a rig, no questions asked....

I'm not faulting anyone, I'm simply want to point out that there is no way for them not to sell gear to "just anyone". It wouldn't take much for a whuffo to skim through a few pages on the intenet and learn enough to talk semi-intelligently about base jumping. I've never been asked for any credentials when buying skydiving or base gear. Skydiving gear stores, could at least ask for USPA information or somehting along those lines if they wanted to really tighten up, but what are base gear manufacturers going to do? I can see it now, you'll need give them refferences and mentor information until you've made a name for yourself in the sport...

Ganja "There's no way to police some things..." Rodriguez

Walk in the park? The White Rabbit is now known as Biff the Bunny! Made 2 there (one FF, one SL), went to the cheese E the next morning. I checked out the landing area, looked up and down that valley of death and elected not to jump. Got some cool footage of NeilQ jumping it though. I still want to do it, but not just yet - that place is a fucking full-on experience.

Will

Think about these two scenarios:

(1) An experienced BASE jumper over-delays and hits the water just as his canopy is coming out of the container. He dies upon impact.

(2) An inexperienced local tanning guy static lines an 18 year-old female from the same bridge. She is unstable on her launch, going head down and through the lines as the canopy is extracted. Since she is wearing shoes with eyelets, her foot is caught on a steering line. With the 14 mph winds that day, she is blown into the boulders on the North side of the river. She dies upon impact with the rocks.

Which scenario do you think will cause the local community to cry out for regulation or an outright ban on BASE jumping? Scenario #2 is far worse than #1.

#47 Fred,
Age: 28
Cliff Jump
Verdon, France
Reports describe Fred, from Nice, France, as having no previous BASE jumps, no training, no experienced jumper with him, etc. He purchased BASE gear, picked an under-hung location to launch from (not one of Verdon's regular launch points), pivoted off the launch, went on his back, and struck the cliff in freefall. This fatality caused BASE gear manufacturers to start better screening their customers prior to the sale of BASE equipment.

if you missed this post, then please read it........


aint that the truth!

For the skydivers that aren't familiar with this object, it is the only bridge in the U.S. that is legal to jump 365 days a year. Some of the local non-jumpers have wanted to close the bridge to BASE jumping for a while. It's already being criticized, thanks to a few select individuals jumping from the rail, jumping with skis, and jumping with a surfboard. We're trying to remedy that situation for the same reason we're discussing the amusement park jumps...we want to keep the bridge.

As others have already pointed out. If someone wants to get BASE gear they will. But we are starting to get sidetracked here and not focus on the original question which is "what is this guy doing wrong?"

I don't really buy the mal scenarios, not saying it "can't" happen, but a static line deployed bagged system is not going to allow someone to get tangled up in the lines unstable or not for that 14 +/- feet of static line. The biggest risk is a static line injury if the static line is not controled prior to the person leaving the platform which constitutes a few feet of unstowed static line. But again, I digress.

I still think what this guy is doing is pretty stupid on his part. As far as his being "qualified" I have to kind of laugh at the thought of people in the BASE community requiring someone to be properly qualified. Who "qualifies" people in BASE? Besides the few that actually run a course I find it hard to believe that everyone who BASES wasn't out there on the thin edge at one point in their BASE career.


Do unexperienced or poorly experienced people teach others to Birdman? Without a question in my mind, it happens. Do I get bent out of shape or think those people need to be stopped? If I did, I'd be perpetually pissed off. But again, this isn't about me or trying to compare it to something else. It is a simple question, feel free to answer it and only it, as I am not trying to debating with anyone. I simply want to know what you think this guy is doing that is wrong and why?

Something to consider: it's a lot more than 14 feet.

I just measured a 36ft round used by the U.S. Air Force. From the apex to the risers was 34 feet and 4 inches. Now, add a "15ft shroud line" as he calls it, and you are looking at nearly 50 feet until the entire system is tensioned. It is at this point that the jumper will be "righted" from whatever body position they are in.

A drop of 50ft is close to a 2-second delay and I've seen plenty of people get seriously unstable on a 2 second delay...

Bryan

Yes.

Ilegal? No.

The point is, you can think the guy is a nut, wacko, idiot, jerk, bastard, whatever. But fucking with his income, and disturbing the way he chooses to run his perfectly legal business is wrong. Heck it's probably ilegal too. Intent to defraud maybe?

Then form a regulatory body, get it approved by the powers that control activities at the bridge, and THEN you can control what activities happen there.

Till then this guy has broken no laws I can see, and doesn't warrent your tampering of his business. To guard against activities like some you have suggested I suggest he take non refundable deposits.

Don't get me wrong. I think the guy is a fool, and a fatality could hamper activities at TF. But it's not YOUR bridge. If you wish to get him to stop, try the route listed above, or maybe write a detailed letter to him about your feelings. Check out his operation, he may suprise you. Or not.


And we don't do the same in skydiving? Dumbing things down for the tandem students? I know his text sound pretty dumb to us, maybe it's writen that way to appease the wuffos. Maybe he's that dumb and just gotten lucky so far.

Hey, maybe you could look over his operation, help him clean it up a bit, and open a school with him, cutting yourself into the profits?


I agree that it's an added level of exposure, but barring a fatality I would say this guy is going to have less of a negative impact as viewed by the powers that control the bridge that some disrespectful, rule breaking, experienced BASE jumper. We don't know of any of those do we?

Regulation of sites is what has the US in this mess of illegal jumping anyway. Who burnt Yosemity? Wuffos trying to make a buck? Rock climbers who pack all their shit out with them?

Saving people from themselves is an almost noble, yet totaly usless task. Better to spend energy both teaching those that wish to learn, and focusing on doing it better yourself (applies to more than BASE of course.)

I am now going to try and remove myself from this discusion, as I am starting to believer the saying about "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics........"

If teaching someone to fly a wingsuit isn't illegal, can I come do it at your dz? I don't own a wingsuit, I've never jumped one, but I HAVE made a few skydives, so that means it's OK for me to do it, right?

But I want to come to YOUR DROP ZONE to do it. It might not be illegal, but what would you say if I showed up at your drop zone with an old ripped up canopy sewn to my jumpsuit, with 12 other jumpsuits, 10 people who have never made a skydive, and said I was charging them $110 a jump...what would you say?

Is it sinking in yet? Don't forget...I'm coming to YOUR DROP ZONE to do it. Not only that, but I'm going to 50% of the drop zones in the country to do the same thing. So...what do you say?

You may not know about CRW, but some people might know a little about BASE, and a lot about the larger issues surounding this, EVEN if they don't jump.

Does the manufacturer of a high performance parachute need to fly one to build it? Does the designer of an Indy car have to be a race driver to design it?

I have yet to make a BASE jump, I have been to TF. I have ground crewed more than a few BASE jumps. I have worked in a rigging loft, I have sold gear for 5 years, I have seen more types of equipment (BASE, Skydiving, Military) than I can recall. I have bent the ear of some of the worlds best BASE jumpers (I do intend to flick something one of these days).

Does the fact I haven't made a fick make me unwelcome here? Does it automaticaly mean I don't know what I'm talking about? I doubt it.

(So much for taking my toys and going home....)

Guess what, JP...WE ARE THE GOVERNING BODY. If you don't like the fact that BASE jumpers regulate ourselves, stick to swooping and wingsuit jumping.

And re-read the thread...IT IS NOT A BUSINESS. In fact, read my original post. You're a non-BASE jumper, so why don't you let us handle this? And while you're re-reading the first post, notice that he does require non-refundable deposits.

I am not arguing the lengths of the whole system. I am saying that a standard military static line is 14' with the snap link. It could be longer if the static line extender was added or it could be shorter if he routes it around and object and back on itself, etc. Agreed, 50 feet is way plenty of time to get unstable but the nature of the system he is using will initiate deployment as soon as the person leaves the platform and the lengths you spoke of have to come out in sequential order. At approx 16 feet( 14 feet static line plus the canvas D bag) the chute is being extracted and the Apex of the canopy is already being elongated.The force of this process is going to right the jumper into a head high position no matter what position they are in when they leave the platform. Having worked with the Airborne test board on static line deployed systems and body position, I have tried every ridiculous position one might get into, some you have to work at, like forward flips and all end up with the jumper head high by the time lines begin to stretch. I know this because I have done it and I watched plenty of high speed video of it afterwards.

But again, I am not here to discuss the system this guy is using or anything else. I just asked a question, that so far, no one has answered. What is this guy doing that is wrong?

From what I can see, he is legally jumping from this B, it's not a "secret" location, others have/do it with other contraptions strapped to themselves and he does give them some training prior. So he isn't breaking any laws or burning the site. Aside from the inherent safety concern, which shouldn't even be a factor IMO, we are after all talking about jumping off of a bridge. Unless this guy is using unservicable equipment, doesn't have a chase boat or doesn't put a life jacket on the people, how can you say he is either dangerous or unqualified more than anyone else who chooses to jump off? Do I agree with this practice? Hell no. Do I understand your concern for the perception of the sport? Yes I do. The way I see it, you have 2 choices here.

1. You(the BASE community) can distance yourselves from this guy and hope he doesn't have any accidents that will shed an unwelcome light on the sport and or close this B for everyone.

2. Someone could go and check his operation out, make sure his gear and support is up to snuff. Maybe give him some advice on how to better do a thing or two so that your protecting the site for everyone in the long run.

These two statements seem to be at odds. Do you think it's a good idea to seek regulation from the authorities?




Many BASE jumpers would argue that it was folks with "skydiver mentality". There's a largish cultural divide between the two sports.

I can't get behind that. I say "chicken out" now and save the poor guy some grief. Life dealt him a tanning salon in Idaho. At least give him some pity.

Edited to add: This post in no way condones this guy's practice.

I've seen a student BASE jumper launch so head low (on a PCA deployment) that they flipped through the risers and gave themself a step through. The system exerted virtually zero force on the jumper prior to reaching line stretch.

Sure, knock your self out. Oh you might want to find out if the PRIVATELY OWNED dz I jump at has any rules concerning that. (They do.)


Again, knock your self out. But you might want to check and see if the PRIVATELY OWNED dz I jump at has any rules about that. (They do.)


No. It's not. I don't think you've grasped the fact that the bidge is a PUBLIC resource, one which you'd like to be selective about letting people use. Maybe you'd like to tell 96 year old grandmas who drive reall slow in the fast lane with their blinker on that they are not allowed to use the roads.

Is it sinking in yet?

I'm not a Perrine local, but I have been there enough in the last eight weeks to know that I've yet to see this guy with his clients (at least I haven't seen him on weekends when you'd think he'd be doing most of his jumps) and I tend to agree with DiabloPilot here. Unless this guy is seen doing unsafe things at the exit points and endangering the lives of his clients, then who are we to judge what he is doing? What makes person A who is hucking themselves off of the bridge have any more rights than person B? If his clients start asking us questions about BASE, then rest assured we will be telling them our opinions of what is right and what is wrong between what they do and what we do. But unless this guy is engaging in unsafe jumping practices, we shouldn't be trying to destroy his business.

I still think BASE as a tourism activity is pretty fucked up. But it's not my bridge, it's not your bridge. Shit it's not even Tom's, Don's, Meghans (or any other locals) bridge. As long as the good people of Twin Falls and the state of Idaho tells us that it is still legal to jump from their bridge, we must all learn to co-exist and obey the rules which have been setup. Of course I don't want to mention anything about the rules against attaching things to the bridge (like a static line) as I hope someday I too can do some static line jumps as long as I have some ground crew who will remove the left over breakaway cord once I have jumped.

It seems to me that several posters have tried to answer that question.

The reasons given included:

1) Antiquated gear
2) Inadequate preparation for both students and instructor
3) Possible impact on US BASE if there is an accident
4) Potential injury to participants who are not fully apprised of the risks

It seems somewhat disingenuous to merely repeat the question, and disregard the answers that have already been given in the thread. Just because you disagree with the answer someone gives does not mean they didn't give an answer.

Why don't you learn a little bit more about BASE before you try to argue this point? It's not a B...it's an S.

What is he doing wrong? Let me ask you again...what would you say if I showed up at your drop zone with a few skydivers, some wingsuits made out of a ripped-up canopy, and told you I was teaching people with no skydives to fly a wingsuit?

What is the guy doing wrong? He is threatening our S by doing stupid stuff like throwing people off with little knowledge himself. And if you were really interested, you would've been to THE BASE SITE to ready my post about this. A friend of mine, also a static line jumpmaster, had a student go in when the guy pushed off the strut, backflipped into the lines, got tangled in them, and died on impact.

JP,

The larger question is really _whether_ we ought to seek government regulation.

This bridge is never going to be privately owned. The government will always retain the power to shut it down. The issue is whether it is better for BASE jumpers (in general) if:

a) we continue on with the status quo

or

b) we seek some kind of government regulation of jumping (most likely regulation of only the "teaching" of beginner jumpers)

I'm honestly interested in which of these two courses of action you think would be superior.

Thanks!

Josh,

Relax. This is just an internet discussion. It's net effect on real life is fairly low.

Of what? Judging but the discusions about JT, and the Radix preview, you're not doing a good job Mr President.

I'll be sure to come seek your aproval befor I jump YOUR bridge.


What's not a business? Your jumps? Or his? (Tanning guy) Or the multitudes of BASE courses that have sprung up?


You know my first instintc is to lable you with a derogatory term. Instead, I'll just assume you're ego can't handle the fact that you're not as special as you think. Why don't you take that attitude to the Sheriff, or the people who allow you to jump from that span. Tell them their ideas and comments are worthless and not welcome. See how long you keep jumping there, because that in essence is what you're doing buy trying to sabatoge the TANNING GUY.

Or better yet, why ask permission at your drop zone? How about I just put signs up, come to the AIRPORT, and start giving wingsuit instruction. Public airport, right? So what would you say about that? The airport, at least most of them, is used by the general public, not just the drop zone. Any better? Forget your drop zone, I'm just coming to the airport to do wingsuit instruction. Are you OK with that?

Don't worry, Tom, I'm learning stuff too, and I'm trying to teach something to the skydivers about BASE, and more importantly, our S.

Please don't.

Discussion = learning = good

Shouting = insults = bad

From what I have dicerned, no one actually KNOWS he is using antiquated gear or more importantly, gear that is unsafe. It was stated that he gives them some ground training prior. Impact? Since it's legal to jump this site I am assuming you mean if something happens to a jumper. Again, I see the majority of the liability being on him. Could the spill over effect BASE, yes it could, but so could any other BASE type of accident at this or any other site.

I don't disagree with any of the replies given or with anyone. I have yet to get a solid answer as to why anyone would want to shut this guys business down.

OK, I'll buy the typo, my bad. But don't attack me because I ask a simple question.



Are you talking a civilian system or a Military one? You know what, don't answer that. It has nothing to do with the topic and won't answer mine, and others question.

They do seem to be at odds at the first glance.

However regulation from a relativly ignorant goverment agency is probably just gonna be bad. If BASE jumpers are that concerned about regulation then they should form an intermediary body to buffer the goverment from the jumpers. Kind of like the USPA does.

PLEASE NOTE: That the above statement in no way confirms mu suport or lack of for the USPA or the way they do things.

Also my first statement:
does not mean I suport a plan like this. I in fact do not suport regulation for BASE jumping. I sugest that people do their business and go on their way disturbing things as little as possible. That's what BASE means to me, it's an idividual thing, that's the attraction I have to it. Most of this discusion turns my stomach to the thought of ever participating in the sport again.

I bought my first rig used off the base board with no questions asked beyond shipping address.

I don't think anyone has said they want to shut him down.

But, I could see people wanting to do so. The motivation would be concern for the potential impact on the site, specifically the impact if an ill-prepared or poorly equipped "student" was hurt or killed.

Having an out of town BASE jumper come here and get hurt is one thing. Imagine the uproar if (for somewhat exaggerated example) the 17 year old daughter of the mayor went in doing something that was advertised as "safer than any skydive".

I guess the short answer to your question is "site preservation."

Because it isn't a business, it's some yahoo trying to make a quick buck. Thanks for you considerate response though, much more appropriate than what's going on right now.

So I'll do the same thing. I'm not trying to ruin his "business." I've talked to him, and he told me all about his antique gear, lack of experience, etc. Just as we are trying to remedy the situation involving experienced jumpers doing stupid stuff, we are trying to remedy a yahoo throwing people off a bridge that people are already trying to close. He wants to get rich quick, and look at what he is willing to do in order to make money...risk the only legal S in the U.S.

My apologies, I get you and diablo mixed up. A typo is acceptable.

I do think that some discussion of the system used is appropriate, as it helps in reaching conclusions about the level of risk.

I don't know jack about military parachute systems. Bryan, on the other hand, knows quite a bit--that's what you get from being a military demonstration parachutist, coach and instructor. Maybe I'll see if I can take him down to have a look at the tanning guy's gear when he gets here this afternoon.

Interestingly, I'm not sure this is true.

The tanning guy apparently put friends of his off for some time, for free, before opening this little business. I don't think he expects to make a ton of money at it.

I'd guess he's more doing it because he thinks its fun, or cool, or whatever. I'm sure it's nice to make a little money, but I doubt that's his primary motivation. If it was, you'd see him advertising heavily, putting jumpers off every weekend, etc.

And I both understand and applaude that. I just see the "chickening out" sabotage tactics as the wrong way to do that. A discusion with the man might be the way to go. I would probably be hesitant to involve the athorities because as of now it sounds like the "tolerate" the activities that go on there. It would probably be no skin of of their nose to stop activities. Don't rock the boat thinking, if you know what I mean.

I've heard the term "our" bridge handed out a few times here. That only applies if you're talking about every tax payer in the US. I would say that thoes tax payers that live in the state might be able to claim a bigger share of the "our" and of those I'll suggest that BASE jumpers are a minority. They guy that drives to and from work every day probably deserves to have a bigger say in what goes on from theat bridge than someone who jets up there from out of town for a weekend. The point is all this hollering and yelling does not change the fat that the TANNING GUY has not done, and is not doing anything illegal.

I totally agree with this answer. I also stated earlier that :

The way I see it, you have 2 choices here.

1. You(the BASE community) can distance yourselves from this guy and hope he doesn't have any accidents that will shed an unwelcome light on the sport and or close this B for everyone.

2. Someone could go and check his operation out, make sure his gear and support is up to snuff. Maybe give him some advice on how to better do a thing or two so that your protecting the site for everyone in the long run.


I agree with you Tom in that I don't think this guy is trying to get rich. If he turns out to be a hazard to himself,others and the site then by all means, he should be convinced to close his operation down or at least stop providing this service and charging people.

Tom, you may be right. But charging $110 a jumper, with a minimum of 10 jumpers, $1,100 seems like a lot of money to be made in a single morning.

PT Barnum hit the nail on the head when he said: " There is an ass for every saddle" If people are willing to pay it then I figure he will get it.

Nope. I meant every taxpayer in the state of Idaho. We own the bridge at the state level. I pay my taxes here, and I think that entitles me to a voice regarding the use of state property.

I wasn't addressing only your use of the "our" classification but you're right it does entitle you to a "voice". About an equal share as the "TANNING GUY" or the people who drive across every day.


Is all this crap what BASE has become about?

If it makes you feel any better, we just "chickened out." He talked to one of the "moms," whose two kids are set to do it. He said not to worry, they're in their 20s, and that really doesn't apply in this situation...he's put off people as young as 12. I wasn't trying to sabotage his business, I was trying to gain information. He's not expecting us, so don't worry about the sabotage.

The rigs are 15-18 years old, which doesn't matter, because "nylon doesn't break down like silk does. Skydivers' parachutes do, though, because they fly them in the sun, and the sun WILL break down nylon. But you won't be in the air for that long."

When I talked to BR about a water rig, they said that water WOULD weaken the nylon. 15-18 years of dropping these things in the water...yet they haven't weakened?? Opinions?

Well the guy is an asshat for exposing himself to liability, and possibly endangering the lives of his students.

I've seen all sorts of old gear that is WAY functional.

"you're not doing a good job Mr President.

I'll be sure to come seek your aproval befor I jump YOUR bridge."

JP, you've got plenty of skydives. If you really want to make a BASE jump, if you take the proper steps (find a mentor or go through a FJC), then I would have no problem with you jumping the bridge.

Thanks.

It did get a bit heated there for a minute

I intend to, one day, with mentors that I trust.

Not seeing what he is using or knowing it's actual age would make for a lot of speculation. However, I do know that silk hasn't been used for many years on military rounds. Unless he has a WWII era chute, chances are he has F1-11 chutes. As for the nylon weakening. We do water jumps and unless it's salt water, the only thing that has to be done is a proper drying and of course an inspection for wear/damage prior to jumping it again. I doubt they have been used 15-18 years for nothing but water jumps. They might not have touched any water until he took control of them for all I know. Again, not knowing how old they are or which model harness he has, it is specualtion as to their servicability. Although a lot of the old stuff will last a very long time since it was so overbuilt. You would not believe what I see other people's Army's jumping sometimes or the way they maintain them. When you have guys tieing their static line to the anchor line cable in the A/C you know they have a maintenance problem.

You're right, it did get a bit heated. Those are the steps that I personally recommend...make plenty of skydives, find a mentor or take a FJC, make a few "practice exits" (from a diving board, for example, and make sure you REALLY WANT TO BASE JUMP.

Some people want to do it because they think they'll look cool, or get laid more than they do skydiving, or to be able to say "I'm a BASE jumper." I am in now way saying that these are your motives, because having the jumps you do, and having the skydiving abilities that you obviously have, you wouldn't need a BASE jump "to look cool." If you want to make a BASE jump, then I would gladly make a jump with you at the bridge (assuming the proper training, of course).

To stick to the topic, my desire is to keep OUR site (yes, it's yours too) open, which is why I called the tanning guy in the first place...to gain information, get the opinions of other jumpers, and decide what to do. We're doing the same concerning the experienced jumpers doing stupid stuff at the bridge.

Yes, he is using F111 chutes. I mention the multiple water landings on these rigs because he said he has been doing these jumps since '83, from the same bridge, all water landings. That does not guarantee that he is using those same rigs, but since he has 12 of them, I figure they are the same ones, or at least some of them.

Related Article Here

-------------------------------------------
FROM THE TWIN FALLS NEWSPAPER, OCT. 2003
-------------------------------------------
"...Paul H. Roberts, a BASE jumper and military paratrooper.

Roberts, who has been parachuting for 30 years and says he was one of the first to BASE jump off the Perrine Bridge in 1989, said Twin Falls and Jerome counties would be wise to sit up and take notice from officials in Fayetteville (Bridge Day).

"I don't want to ban it. I want it regulated," Roberts said."
-------------------------------------------

Is Twin Falls some kind of "ex-paratrooper/rigger" resort community? Geez.....

I do agree with the guy on regulation, but not by the county/city. As it's been stated many, many times on dz and blinc, we need to be able to regulate ourselves, without having to bring in outside parties.

And I'm not sure who's lying...this guy or the tanning guy. The tanning guy said he's been putting "students" off since '83.

can i also teach people to skydive but in BASEgear?,becours i trust my BASE gear more than any skydive gear???

Or what about teaching SL students to fly a wingsuit soon as they get off the line???

hmm,perhaps jumping off somthing aint just to do the step..and this guy seems to not knowing shit about BASE,thats what we think is wrong,hopefuly you also does...

Actually Faber, this guy may know shit about actual BASE jumping but it seems to me he has a clue about chucking people off into a river. I haven't actually seen evidence of him being unsafe. Bottom line, this is a fucking exhibition ride this guy is offering plain and simple. he is not offering to teach people to jump off antennas, or cliffs, he is throwing people into a lake with reliable systems. Is this the safest thing that people can do? probably not but probably alot safer than many other things in life.

Oh, and everyone that keeps saying your bridge, stop it. It isn't your bridge, it is everyone that wants to use it. As long as they play by simple rules. Oh, and instead of pretending to be someone your not, have the balls to walk up and have a discussion with the guy and voice your concerns. If he is making a little money he may want to actually work with you guys.

Why not just try and have respect for a guy and his little business. No one complains when other offer first jump instruction off this bridge, well, this guy is offering a one time thrill. As long as he isn't killing people laugh at his tanning salon/base jumping combo and move on.

~chachi

Is this, by chance the same guy?

im not sure i read it correct so im answering the way ithink you means it.
If he dont know shit about BASE then he dont have a clue about hucking people off a S...
If he wanted to He could use modern BASE gear...

Oki if thats a safe system then im not using unsafe gaer but ok thats me...

so lying to people about the danger doing such a jump is ok i guess???

i would do if i lived there,but now i live in DK and a trip over there would cost me alot of mony..Pointe not all can do that...

Belive me he would have all the respect he could need if he did it the correct way...

so you basickly ask us to wait until this guy hucks a student off that gets killed and then flame??
You dont think that saving 1 life or even an injury would be ok by this diskuss???

It seems abit odd that some skydivers defend a guy that makes some unsafe coaching to students...If you guys want to jump day wouldnt you then be happy that we dont allow people like that,so you hopefule gonna survive whith out injuryes if/when you start jumping...

just thinking out loud here...

 

I have to disagree with this. We hurl whole divisions of people out of A/C under Military rounds on a constant basis. Of the few accidents that do occur , I have yet to see one that was attributed to the Main malfunctioning.Most injuries are attributed to jumper error either while under canopy or on landing.

No.

Holy crap! Sensibility! I'm assuming Tom is on that one. I'm also assuming that this is the result of letting ideas formulate in his head, unchecked for too long. When asking himself, "What could go wrong?", he very likely doesn't have the experience, information resources, or contacts to answer those questions. He needs his bubble burst. That's all.

I know! A freefall video concesion!

I agree that talking to the guy is the best tactic. So any of you who may still be under the misconception that I'm trying to ruin his business, remember that I called as a wannabe to gain information to share with other BASE jumpers. I called the guy earlier to let him know we weren't coming, so he isn't expecting us.

I've obtained the info, I've shared it with other jumpers, I told him that my group isn't coming, and now we're working on a plan...most likely talking to the guy now that we have some info on him.

That has to be the most intelligent thing I've read in this entire thread!

I doubt this guy will stop, infact if you try to physically stop him, I bet he gets the cops involved. Also, if his operation fucks up and hurts/kills someone, then guys who sufferes. Not him, not really, the BASE community sufferes.

So pull this SOB under your wing and teach him things the right way with modern BASE specific gear.

Also, I'm willing to bet that if you approach him as "I'm a BASE jumper your wrong and dangerous, I'm going to teach you the right way" that he will ignore you and any other BASE jumper that tries to help him.

Tact will be needed, as well as soft words nudging in the right direction, once he realizes whats going on, he'll most likely be asking for help.


For instance, invite him to come jump with you some afternoon, work the conversation to talking about the pioneers of the sport, talk about the gear, then talk about how cool you think it is that the gear has made life so much safer and more fun, etc. Get some jumps with the guy, show off your skill and your gear, without making it all out to be as if you were trying to show off and make him look bad. If the guy has any sense he'll start asking questions.

Hell, you might even learn a bit about military gear and military jumping by chatting with the guy, you never know.



Eitherway, good luck!

So, what is a good way to give non skydivers a BASE like experience?

I would not hesitate to go jump this guy's systems as they are - it sounds like a reasonable and safe set-up to me, provided he doesn't jump it in questionable winds... You pick the tools for the site. Landing in water - you don't need mojos or flicks...

Lots of people jump rounds into the river...

Six Flags

hmmm, not the answer i was looking for. you guys don't get it. we came up for a way for whuffos to know the "feeling" of a skydive (tandem) and a way to charge and make money from it. why are we surprised that someone came up with a way for people to get the "feeling" of a BASE jump?

~Chachi

I get it just fine. I also know that you're not guaranteed a water landing at the Perrine. Even on a non-steerable round. Assuming the canopy is open in about 175 feet, that's over 400 feet of altitude prior to touch down.

A.J. Hackett runs a very good bungee operation in Vegas. That would be pretty darn close.

Well I guess we could nit pick this guy to death. The bottom line is there is risks in everything, but I think his are very manageable. We should discuss this, especially if we can be objective but straight up, its his ass more than ours. I just don't think he is being as reckless as some may think and if he has success at this good for him. I, like the rest of you hope nothing bad happens too.

~Chachi

 

Think about it. He hasn't put that many people off in reality. I happen to know enough about parachutes and their function to have an educated guess about what happens if this becomes a regular activity.

I gave a perfectly valid point of view based on personal experience. Using that Personal experience, one can deduce that a water landing is not remotely guaranteed unless you steer it there. Chances are the unsuspecting ballast at the end of the lines will enter the water, but given any number of variables, the ballast is land bound.

I've many jumps from that bridge (that's for you tree) and I could certainly say it's not too much of a nitpik

My first answer was short and to the point. And I was serious.

If you want to experience a parachute ride, do a static line out of an airplane.

That's my input and people are free to agree or disagree

So, carry on! Can you believe this is a Flaming thread. I think it's only the second flaming thread in the BASE zone. The other one was the bridge day thread when we all tried to register and couldn't? Remember that day? That... was an exciting day!

-----------------------------------
Relax. This is just an internet discussion. It's net effect on real life is fairly low. ~~TomAiello~~

And that matters why?

Settle Down......
http://www.nationaltrust.org/magazine/archives/arch_story/013004.htm


I'm not sure how to make it go clicky and I'm at work, so I'll get chewed out if I try to figure it out...

If this dude's been hucking people off the bridge for even the last 5 years, it sounds to me like nobody even knew about it until now... The only thing that I'd even have a problem with is the old gear... Isn't there any level headed person in TF that might need a tan? Just go talk to the guy and ASK if he'd have a problem "sitting in" on a course... Maybe he'd be open to constructive criticism...

whatever...

I in no way meant to flame, and arguing over the internet is like winning the special olympics. Just wanted to settle my points into the discussion, and answer your direct points to basically kill time at wotk. Hope no one took anything as a flame.

~rob

Well said. And Tree, I have made a few jumps from the bridge, and I plan to do so the Saturday that he is putting wannabes off...but it won't cost me $110 a jump!!

To the skydivers...it's not like we're talking about T&F this guy. Most of the debate has been on whether or not this is a concern, which I feel that most agree. As far as how to handle it, I haven't seen anyone post who is AGAINST handling it by talking to the guy.

And AJ Hacket is a cool place to do a bungee jump. If you want dead air, go to Vegas. If you want a parachute ride, go parasailing. If you want to swim, go to a pool. Does this mean I'm going to T&F every mother&$%^er that shows up to jump with this guy? NO. Am I gonna take him to jail? NO. Am I going to ruin his business? NO. What am I going to do about it? I've done it...I've given the info to the more experienced BASE jumpers, who can then talk to the guy. If I see him, sure, I'll chat with the guy, but I'm not going to ramble on about the specifics of the bridge, BASE, or equipment...I'm leaving that up to the experienced guys.

LOL NO... look at the main page of the BASE zone.. this thread is burning

That's all I was referring too

That's a good question my deciduous, friend. Let's find out.

You may think you know a thing or two about BASE but there's more than two things to know.

We are, at this point, self-regulating. If you make too much of a hoohaa we will regulate you. It's a good thing the IBP isn't in Georgia. Of that you can be sure cuz there'd be more folks wearing a waterproof, feathered toupe if it was.

"What has this guy done wrong" whines the uninitiated populous.
"He pissed us off and that's all it takes motherfucker".

We don't ask permission, we don't cry to the authorities, we don't allow ourselves to be fucked over. We take care of our own including our errant children.

You can spend as long in the stadium as you like...it don't make you a quarterback. Your assumed knowledge of the activity counts for shit. Once you've experienced BASE then you'll realized how cretinous your whuffo comments are.

"I plan to make a BASE jump someday". Fuck that.
I'll send you a check for $110 and you can drop by the tanning salon tomorrow. There's fuck-all to it. Any asshole can BASE jump. Shit, It's safer than crossing the street. The worst that can happen is that you hit the ground and your inards compress so hard that they force your internal organs out through your asshole and your brain exits through the top of your head so fast it blows a hole in the Protec you're wearing. Piece of piss, really. Why the concern, lady? Aw shit, you can always have more kids to replace this one.

Where's the data to back up these wild assumptions? Why does being a rigger help you BASE jump or give you any knowledge? All you do is pack a canopy. Once it's packed your rigging's done. Game over. No longer required. Go home. Go, on. Shooo.
Besides, I know riggers who can pack a reserve but tie their own shoelaces together. The principles of two activities may be the same but the transfer of skills isn't guaranteed.

My chihuahua is tame and I trained him ergo I could be a lion tamer.
Twat! Suppers ready Leo and it's wearing a pink DaKine jumpsuit. Yeah, the one giving his buddy the high five and walking like he just got outta prison. Chow down.

I could give a fuck whether what this guy is doing is legal, illegal, ethical or whatever. Fact is, if it results in our playground being exposed to risk then a reaction should be expected. It may not be pretty.

You may be willing to stand by while some poor bastard gets killed in an accident you could've prevented by intervening. I won't. I don't know a BASE jumper who would. I wouldn't jump with anyone who would. When I get carved up I want the 95 lb chick who followed me down to dig deep, haul me onto her shoulder and drag my ass back to the 4x4. You can stay at the bottom crying and puking and generally acting like a tit. Maybe that's the difference that allows someone to to be a BASE jumper rather than just performing a BASE jump. Commitment to your comrades through all the shit.

If you had knackers you'd already be what you're talking about doing.

Whew! The Metabolife seems potent this evening.


Seriously, we resond to stimuli and our response is not always a measured one. If you meant to wind people up then congrats. You did it.

Now please, pretty please...fuck off back to your own world.

Shouting = insults = venting = feeling better (sorry Tom).

OM Fucking G. That was the funniest thing I have seen all day. Even funnier than the photo of Kerry with a shotgun.

So what do I win?

Truth be told, if I were some rich-ass sugardaddy pimp mo fo, I would go out to TF, buy the store right next to the tanning joint, load it with cancer beds and a whole slew of illegal (yet cute) Korean manicurists and Japanese massage honeys (is a hand relief illegal in Idaho?) and advertise "20% lower prices than the joint nextdoor."

See how he likes somebody shitting in his playground.

I'm I the only one that sees something wrong with this question?

Yeah, I do. Had he read the thread before posting, he'd know that those are our intentions...to talk to the guy.

Can't we just beat him with a stick?

Leave it to a wanker across the pond to tell it like it is That's some funny shit

WTF is with you two (JP & Lou)?!!! Can't you take your opinionated bickering over to the soapbox or someplace?

I am really starting to like Mick's place a lot, lot more! More skydivers hijacking threads like this and I'll never look back.

I've always liked Mick's place better. All of the BASE jumpers have been on here trying to explain the situation to the skydivers. I won't start a new thread on here anymore, that's for sure.

US? I should be asking you and your bud skinflicka WTF. We are not the ones Bickering here. This started out as a lynch mob for this guy because of what he is doing and we simply asked someone to explain the situation RATIONALLY. For a group of people who don't want to be regulated and told what to do , you sure seem to take offense to a guy doing his own thing. Besides, this conversation has already come to a conclusion, no need in addressing questions that have already been answered. Read the whole thread if you haven't already done so and maybe it will make sense to you. If it doesn't then ask Tom to explain it to you via PM. Ranting on like a caffine induced mad man with things like "he pisses us off" and "fuck that" do nothing to substantiate your position nor does it convince anyone of anything other than that you resent someone saying something you disagree with. Everyone involved in this discussion is PRO BASE as far as I am concerned but apparently some people are too close to the trees to see the forest. You are preaching to the choir except this choir doesn't need to act like they are in the mosh pit to deal with the problem.

Tree is a big boy, so I could see how that could happen.

Humor anyone? I just posted this on Mick's site, but I think we ESPECIALLY need it here. And remember, it's only for a laugh:

**Okay, I think we all need some humor. From the homepage of dz.com, "how to survive the WFFC":

"The WFFC can be a dangerous place. But with a little planning and some common sense, you can spend your time at Rantoul jumping and partying rather than taking that 'other' helicopter ride."

Jumping and partying at the same time...is THAT safe?? **

I said I wouldn't post it here, since the skydivers would lynch me. But FYI, I am NOT taking a stab at skydiving, because yes, I do it from time to time myself. Laughter is the best medicine, ya know.

Lynched by skydivers = mauled by sheep.

Bedtime.

Boing.

PS smile or I'll bite you.

Everyone is opinionated. Both those who agree and those who disagree with you.


I've always like Mick's place. Even more after he let me crash with him for a week in Europe.

Oh, come one. I thought skin's diatribe was hilarious. He's probably got the title as the current "most removed posts" champ in this forum (I think his signature is some kind of trophy). That one's funny enough that it has to stay.

Yo mama, punk.......

You know, coming to this site to get the opinions of BASE jumpers is like asking to be sodomized with a curling iron So I'm sticking to Mick's site. I'll still visit you guys though, since brawling with skydivers has turned out to be a lot of fun!!

im in the belive that some things in life needs experience to try,i mean skydives and canopy skills are werry important to have before BASE jumping off anything..

to me it´s as nuts as giving me the oppertunety to fly a plane whith out knowing shit about it.

Yes i do mean all should have skydive experience(atleast 200jumps,or more likely more but i know that wont happen),therefore i think thouse people shouldnt beabel to get a BASE jump as their knowlegede and experience about canopy control,mals etc dont make it a safe jump to them.Rember people think that when people let them try somthing out,then its becourse its safe...Were used to that evry thing is safe in the normal life.. therefore thouse people will think the same about BASE jump...

i think most of us pointed out that the reasson we are upset about this guy is that most of us dont think he does his thing in a safe way=sombody have a greater chance to get injuryed or killed=bad for the sport plus thouse persons involved(specialy the person that takes the hit).

I wont flame you(Lou) or JP,but i get upset to see 2 speakers from the skydive envioment were you work so hard to make things safe as posible,then come here and disagree whith even experienced BASE jumpers that says this i dangerus.
I guess most in here see that as defending a guy that dont care about safty.If you guys think BASE is all about trying to kill your self then your all wrong,its about living and stay alive to keep living and enjoy what we do.

Hope it cleard up why people are upset on this guy and now also you and JP(well not realy you two that much,but i had to hit ya).

Its all about getting the right rep. for our sport and you guys sure already know what bad attention to skydive can give.. its even harder in BASE,therefore we dont need things like this..

Skin,you lier.. you always dissaper as i visit UK.and i really would like to buy you a pint after jumping..so i guess you wont jump whith mebut i can understand why,somtimes i dont want to jump whith me either but i have no choice

I would be interested in getting the opinion of the BASErs on the ethics (from a BASE ethics perspective) of the practice known as "deathcamping".

Edited to add: By "deathcamping" I mean in the context of experienced BASE jumpers dispatching non-BASE jumping friends off an object on a one-time basis.

has anyone else noticed that his discussion / arguement can be split into 2 camps.........

Camp 1) BASE jumpers
Camp 2) Skydivers

does that not say something?

If you skydivers are so confident of your thoughts why dont we see you post this sort of shit at BLiNC?

Fucking hell..............


edit: cant beleive this is the second most posted subject in the BASE Forum...................

Reason: Camp 2 cant see that Camp 1 wants BASE to stay as safe as possible................ fucking madness...........

 

*stands up clapping*

*stands up clapping* · · · · · · · · Me too!!!!!

Bullshit.

Tree (others place your name here if it applies) , as much as it's going to wound you, you're far from representitive the BASE comunity. Your limited view won't let you see beyond the mental E you're about to strike. The majority of BASE jumpers I've met (and called my friends) will look upon your rantings and immediately see you for what you are. An individual who was pulled from the tit too early in life, and continualy needs the stroking and indirect approval of others. True BASE jumpers are not militant goose-stepping Nazi punks. When will you realize you've never had it so good. If discounting me and my statements makes you feel better about yourself, who am I to stop you? I've stood on the edge, and walked away twice due to conditions. I'm comfortable with that. I have no need to puff myself into a monstrosity of bragadocia, and spewed insults. You've missed the boat on sensibility, and instead remained in your own fairy tale town.

Let me clear you up on one incredibly observant point you've made.


DZ.com is mental masturbation, and I as well as everyone here is a hairy palmed, glasses wearing, kleenex using, jerk-a-holic.


Or in smaller words for those of you that are working on the first sentence still......yo mamma, punk.(in the nicest possible way.)

Foul!!!

Book 'em Danno.

The trick is to insult everyone and thereby avoid the label of "personal attack".

I'd be interested in knowing who the BASE jumpers you have met are. Perhaps you should change your name to Bananapilot.

It's all just fun and ephedra, dude. Don't go crazy.

Thank you, o' master of the insult.....

ah the joys of ephedra.....................

shame we have to import it, otherwise I may climb over 300ft regular!

...oh bugger I cant climb

*puts on grumpy old man voice*

eeeee.... you young fuckers, walking and climbing like its so easy....... eeeee *hits rimlicka with crutches*

fuck ephedra with this much time and non movement on my hands, cant sleep as it is!

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you fuckers!

be safe all!

I don't know how that distinction was made other than those who feel that anyone who skydives is not a BASE jumper. So what does it mean when a BASE jumpers skydives? I don't buy it and call BS on anyone who says my or anyones elses opinion doesn't count based solely on what form of this sport we choose to spend most of our time. I started BASE jumping at the age of 8 using a buddys Airforce round from the roof of his house and have continued to make jumps when I get the itch. So make a Camp 3 called Skydiver/BASE jumper and I'll gladly get in that line.



I read BLiNC and the traffic there is pretty slow, this place gets far more traffic and I monitor this site daily. For me it's just easier.




I don't think anyone here debated that. What was a question that still remains to be fully answered and not speculated upon, is if this guys operation is safe/unsafe. Since no one has actually seen him throw people off yet, it's all speculation based on a few phone conversations. Based on that, people were ready to lynch this guy and started attacking what he is doing. Until I mentioned it, I didn't hear one of you make mention of trying to protect this spot by actually talking to this guy face to face and watch what he does before making judegement.

Yes Lou I agree that there needs to be a 3rd category, one for those of us who enjoy both BASE jumping as well as skydiving. Maybe I'm in the minority with the BASE community, but I still thoroughly enjoy my time when I'm skydiving. There are so many cool things for me to do (freeflying, tracking dives, wingsuit dives, swooping, CReW) and on at least three of those, they are things that I can use to make myself better in the BASE environment (tracking, wingsuit for BASE and CReW). But I'm also a BASE jumper (albeit just a newbie) and weather permitting I will be at the Perrine next weekend. But I am no jet setter (as someone earlier referred to some of us out of towners). I am someone who drives 10 hours each way to and from Twin Falls as I feel the drive is worth it for myself to gain some much needed experience in the slightly safer confines of the Perrine Bridge.

As far as our tanning guy is concerned. I know there is one person here who is definitely qualified with the appropriate BASE experience, military gear experience and over all good guy with a good head on his shoulders capable of talking with someone without going over the deep end (BPS for those who haven't figured it out). But the question remains as to what he feels about all of this and does he think it is worth the effort to talk to the tanning guy?

 

> Tree (others place your name here if it applies)... ...you're far from representitive the BASE comunity
JP, I often read you very interesting posts about parachutes, skydiving, whatever. You write down very nice and instructive things.
Here, I am fraid, you are completely out of context.
Yes, Tree is not THE representative of the BASE community.
But, I am afraid, Tree expresses his very personal thought that, by chance, results to be the same thought as 95% of active BASE jumpers (Felix belongs to the othere 5% ), all over the world.
As Tree said, and without causing you, JP, offence:
1) if you are not a BASE jumper
2) and/or if you do not BASE jump at Perrine
any personal opinion of yours is out of place. If you do not know the sport of BASE jumping (and only an active BASE jumper can know, and I am not talking about someone that has hucked himself a couple of times off an object, maybe a span), you cannot argue about what is right for BASE and for Perrine and what is dangerous (=could lead to have the S shut down) for BASE and for Perrine.
The fact that BASE is not regulated by law does NOT mean that Mr. Bill one morning wakes up and decides to throw high school kids off a bridge.
Skydiving has got rules and these rules can be quite easily enforced. In fact, you can only skydive off an airplane taht has taken off at a drop zone, so, if Mr. Bill hasn't got a regular licence (evidence of proper training), without donning a TSO'ed rig, without an "in-date" packed reserve and without a proper insurance, you simply do not allow Mr. Bill to step onto aircraft. It's quite simple. And this is also the reason why skydiving is quite a safe sport and why they succeed in keeping a very low fatality rate in the sport of skydiving worldwide.
BASE jump happens to be only ten 10 times more dangerous than skydiving and:
1) BASE hasn't got rules
2) even if BASE had got rules and licenses and whatever, I see it very, very unlikely to succeed in enforcing such rules (if there is not pilot onto aircraft, it's very unlikely that aircraft takes off by itself; an object, I am afraid, is "there" all alone, impossible to think to police any jumpable object in the world).
So, the fact that it is NOT forbidden by law, it NOT a good idea to throw Mr. Bill off a bridge.
Can Mr. Tanman throw Mr. Bill's off the Perrine? Yes, he can.
Is a good idea that Mr. Tanman throws Mr. Bill's off the Perrine? No, it's not.
Which are the chances that if a Mr. Bill (thrown off the Perrrine by Mr. Tanman) goes in, they shut the Perrine up? There are very high chances.
As I wrote in anther post, a "public" object is helpless, without defence, it is there, anybody can hurl himself off of it.
In the end, it is all about statistics/probability/chances, as life, in the end, is.
It is NOT what you can do or what you cannot do.
It is about reducing the chances of fatalities in a certain activity trying to enforce some rules/laws/prescriptions/warnings in order that the accidents in such activity are minimized.
If properly trained BASE jumpers with proper gear and proper weather jump off the Perrine, the happening of a fatality is very, very low.
If Mr. Bill is thrown off the Perrine by Mr. Tanman with old gear, maintained who-knows-how and who-knows-how-often, in the long run, which do you think the probability of a fatality will be? Write here your answer........................
In the end, when about BASE jump, it is NOT about laws and/or writen rules, it is all about good and old common sense.
Any real BASE jumper (and here for "real" I do not mean Superman, I mean an active and well trained and well experienced BASE jumper who know how difficult is to have a number of jumpable objects available... ...without jumpable objects you simply cannot do the sport) would say EXACTLY the same things Tree wrote.
What would you think, JP, if I showed up at YOUR own DZ without a licence, with questionable rig on my shoulders, reserve not sealed, without an insurance and I said to you: "Let me step up into the plane, let me step up into the plane, I want to skydive!!!!"
What would you do me? I tell you what you would do me.
You would stamp a huge footprint on my buttocks, that's what you would do!!!!! And you would be completely right!!!!!!!
So, JP, if you are NOT into the sport of BASE, you cannot understand what Perrine is for an American BASE jumper, a safe place where you can learn, a safe place where you can enjopy doing your favourite sport, so you cannot imagine what a shut down of Perrine wuold be for the "average" american BASE jumper.
I live quite far away, I live in Italy, here we have quite few legal object (by legal I mean that they are NOT illegal, but that would be a longer discussion...) and quite a few "do-it-at-night" objects, so, personally I am not directly involved on a shut up of the Perrine.
But it comes that firstly it happens that I made my first four BASE jumps off the Perrine, and so I am sentimentally involved with the bridge, and secondly, I would feel very sorry and very sad for my American friends if all of a sudden the authorities go and shut the Perrine down.
Just my 0.02€.

I think it's worse, actually. Experienced BASE jumpers ought to know better. The tanning guy, on the other hand, really has no other context. He's not part of the BASE community, doesn't know it's ethics,and isn't trying to have an impact on it.

I get that alot from skydivers. I've met quite a few who pretty much see BASE as madness, so they can't see why we care about safety or ethics.

It's kind of like how non-jumpers feel about skydivers.

I'm not trying to wound you or put you down here JP, but;

Most the BASE jumpers you knew from the DZ in Davis (I can't speak to your experience in SoCal, obviously) were people who were viewed as relatively unethical by most BASE jumpers. In fact, _they_ (the people you thought of as BASE jumpers) were exactly who many BASE jumpers were thinking of when they complained about "skydivers". The general consensus in the BASE world is that many of their antics (like jumping the Big Stone at 7pm, for example) were a clear demonstration of the problem with "skydivers" BASE jumping.

Do I believe what, that I did it? Yes I do. How many times did you jump off a building with a real parchute as a kid? I didn't know there was an age/ altitude requirement for BASE now. But hey, if it made you chuckle good for you, glad I could make you laugh. I don't need anyones approval or nod, what I do, I do for myself.

well Tom I can say that I am part of Camp 3. I am new to BASE as I have 10 jumps now and just bought my own shit. but the whole point JP, Lou, and others are trying to make is this. You want to be left alone doing your sport or objects which you feel you are entitled to use. This guy wants to run his little weekend huck people off the bridge thing and be left alone also. One has nothing to do with the other for sure. He is not teaching people to BASE and get into the sport. He is giving people a thrill ride. As for the people that say what would it do for the bridge and the community if he did kill someone? Well, from the looks of things absofuckinglutely nothing. Just like when BASE jumper kill themselves on that bridge. Nothing happens, except he would probably never do it again. So pull your head outta your ass and realize he is not trying to fit into your little slice of the world, he is carving his own way. He is not a representitive of the BASE community.

~chachi

I actually suggested that in my very first post, in the first thread on this topic.

I probably know a few more jumpers than you think from the NorCal.

In general, BASE jumpers will view you as a "skydiver" based on ethics and community considerations, rather than on whether you spend time at the DZ or not.

In that sense "skydiver" is generally a term used to describe someone who either (a) rejects some basic ethics of our sport, or (b) simply hasn't learned them yet.

In that sense, most of "camp 3" (skydiver/BASE jumpers) is actually part of "camp 1" (BASE jumpers).

The thing that BASE folks object to isn't the act of skydiving. It's the attitude (which I've seen running rampant at some DZ's) that "I am bullet proof and I'll do whatever I want, and screw you guys." "Skydiver" is short hand for someone with this attitude. It's not a fair label (as it generalizes about all people who skydive). Nonetheless, it's the commonly used label in the BASE world (which use results in countless misunderstandings and hard feelings--as in this thread).

 

I'm not sure that's true. If some non-jumper local died out there, I think the community outcry against jumping would be much greater than if a "tourist BASE jumper" did. As I said before, there is a big difference between a "BASE jumper" (in the communities perception) getting killed, and the 17 year old daughter of your neighbor doing the same.


Actually, to the people of Twin Falls, he is. How should they know the difference?


Thanks. I'll continue to try my best. I'll also remember that you said that to me.

hell, a lot of people don't even consider rollovers a BASE jump. So I don't think the roof would count.

I expected such a response from you, thanks for proving me right. Like I said, what I do, I do for myself, not for anyones approval least of all yours.


Getting back on topic: I just hope that with all the energy that we have spent here talking about this, someone will take the time to check into this guy's operation and help keep this site safe and open for everyone.

 
Thinking, oh well, we are now seeing the yang that results from the ying of having an everyday legal bridge. However, the feasibility of selling BASE rides has come up many times over the years in the BASE community. Even tandem BASE has been considered. (Not the way it was done at Bridge Day, but with real BASE tandem rigs). At that time the issue wasn’t should we do it, or even could we do it, it was more, where do we do it?

So, I always thought this type of thing an inevitable part of the growth of the sport. And, I can’t help but admit, I’m interested in where this is going to lead. My only concern, like many of you, was who is this fellow, and would his actions cause me to someday add an innocent vacationing wuffoe to the list of BASE fatalities.

This morning, through a reliable source, I was told who the Tanning Guy is. Anyone who still has copies of my Fixed Object Journal will find a letter, or two, from him. And also a reference to him, I made in a 1991 Bridge Day article.

His initials are C.R.

Although, I haven’t had much contact with him over the years, other than a friendly e-mail once in awhile. I knew him to have his head on straight. And he was as enthusiastic about BASE jumping as any of us. This is what I wrote of him in 1991.

“The battleship Wisconsin steamed home from the Persian Gulf with a young Navel Officer aboard named C.R.. After months at sea he had just two things on his mind, and the second thing was Bridge Day. He made his first two BASE jumps at Bridge Day 1991 [with my help] and his afterglow lasted until the last time I saw him, still on his feet at four in the morning in the lobby of the Holiday Inn. Way to go, Navy!”

Oh, and this squabbling about who’s a BASE jumper, and who’s a skydiver is solved once you remember what Janis Joplin sang, “It’s all the same thing, man.”

We are all just sport parachutists . . .

Nick
BASE 194

Nick, are you sure we're talking about the same guy? When I talked to the tanning guy, he gave me a different name, which you'll see in my first post (I think)...initials are J.W.

Okay, as far as skydivers posting here. I do skydive from time to time, but I'm not about to go to another forum and start giving opinions on something I don't know "much" about. For example, wingsuits or freeflying. CRW is my skydiving discipline, but I'm not going to that forum and start arguing with the experienced CReW dogs.

idly wonders how many low speed drops the military has done with those parachutes and static line systems.... I dont have terribly many military static line jumps, and i've seen quite a few completely jacked exits that worked out anyway... and it doenst take very long to teach a PLF in the event the somehow miss the water..

is it at all possible this guy does have a very reliable way (assuming his gear is regularly PMCS'd) of doing things? What if he does? seems like many people are pissed because 'that is not the way we do it!!'

until someone actually has some facts about his equipment, training given, and method used it would seem the T&F party is a bit early....

i'm not about to sign up for his 'FJC' but then your not likely to get me under a round again ever.....

Yes, I saw that. I'm not sure what part C.R. plays here, he may not be the frontman, but rather playing a more behind the scenes role.

And I never known the person who told me about C.R. to be wrong about much.

Nick
BASE 194

Rollovers, unders, wads, TARDs are technically not BASE jumps. The rule (I believe) is that the jump must be made from a packed container... not sure where a DB would fit into that.

That said.. I still put rollovers in my log book.

>>The rule (I believe) is that the jump must be made from a packed container... not sure where a DB would fit into that.<<

Carl Boenish, when defining a BASE jump said, "with a packed parachute," not a packed container . . .

Nick
BASE 194

 

i guess you read what you want.. i have talked about this loads of times in this tread..

please wash behind the ears before you flick any objects then
ohh and Tom usaly rember stuff

I'll take this response to be a language barrier misunderstanding. What I was saying is that no one involved ever had an issue with keeping BASE safe. In fact, I think the conclusion this thread has come to via the long route is how to make sure this guy is indeed safe and doesn't jeopardize the site for BASE jumpers.

I think we have thoroughly killed this horse now, several times.

To add to my last . . .

Carl Boenish, in the very early days of exploring, what was then ultra-low fixed object jumps, fabricated a large metal hoop to which he attached an already open round parachute with clothespins. The suspension lines hung in a U shape and led to a harnessed jumper standing next to the hoop. It was the poor man’s Coney Island parachute jump. I know Ritchie Stein made his first (of any kind) jumps like this. After these “test” jumps they started to jump packed and closed containers.

However, Carl felt the need to differentiate between the hoop type and packed type jumps. And that’s why his definition says a packed (as in not already partially deployed) parachute. A direct bag is a real BASE jump, as the parachute is packed, you’re just not wearing the container it’s packed into on your back.

Carl, of course, had no way to see what the future would bring. And believe me, Carl wasn’t all that serious about BASE in the sense that he was really just trying to have fun with it all. I think if he was alive today, he would chuckle that car-motor laugh of his, and say, “rollovers, etc, are BASE jumps too.”

Nick
BASE 94

Exactly, I thought about going down that road in the beginning but I could see that it would go no where. It's just one of those things you have to see/do to understand it in this context.

I Pm'd Tom and told him this comment was not meant for him, It was meant for the people going all Nazi on this guy for having an idea. That's all.

Also, if someone chooses to remember me for a small comment, I guess it is there choice. I think I am far more than a one comment individual and because we disagree on this one thing does not mean that you wouldn't like or respect me in person, or agree with me on many other points. Or I wouldn't agree with you. Man, it is just a discussion on some boards not a life situation.

~Chachi

"I think we have thoroughly killed this horse now, several times."

You're right on that one, Lou, but we've beat the thing so much that there's probably not much left of him to beat!! hehe

Not to worry.

Nick, this is incorrect.

The "tanning guy"'s initials are J.W.

I say that we give this award (see attached) to all the skydivers who've made this thread so darn long...
Congrats to all of you.

Not bad. You DO (or did) skydive

I have one of those too.

Only if we can give EVERYONE who's posted to the thread this one.....

Nice pic! I didn't know BASE570 could run

a stunt, sure. A base jump, why wouldn't it be?

Are you jealous that he started before you?

dont take this serious

though I am a newbie, I diagree. you are still jumping from "said" object. why wouldnt it be a base jump?

---like you, I would also log them.

now thats not nice. But one thing I know for sure is that he knows how to dig and get dirty! :-)

570- you know I am playing here, glad i could help ya out....

"I still put rollovers in my log book"

That makes me feel better, I'd have a few less jumps if I didn't.

And run I will... straight to your house to kick your ass

570

i didnt know you could run? i thought you only dug and got dirty?

look at all the smiles over all my post i just founded it funny(specialy as i visulised a guy whith his head up his ass)

Anyone ever check out the skydiver sections, like talk back and the bonfire?

What is happening to the dz.com BASE board?

And why is it that when I post on blinc about a serious, technical question, there aren't 170 replies there?

Because there aren't 170 serious replies to give? Or because you don't have to think hard to post to a thread like this?